Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

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Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby IloveLizzie » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:10 pm

I saw this photo in Arnold Brown's book LB:The Truth The Legend The Final Chapter. It is a crime scene photo of Andrew Borden. There is someone standing to the right of couch. I thought it was a police officer but why is he transparent? I thought maybe it was the quality of the picture since it was 1892 but Andrew's body looks totally solid. Any ideas about it. In the book the photo with the man next to the couch was even transparent. I was thinking it might be apparition of Andrew!! But looking at it online I think it's maybe a police officer. I attached 2 photos. One that is the same in the book and a different one where it looks more like maybe a police officer. If this is a police officer. It is the 1st crime scene photo I have ever seen in 25 years of interest in the case with a police officer.
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby mbhenty » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:28 pm

:smile:

Yes, IloveLizzie.

In all probability the man standing off to the right is a detective.

Now, the reason he looks transparent has to do with the way they took photographs back then.

Of course today everything is digital. But not to long ago, say 15 years back or so. Cameras were mechanical. When you pushed the little button to take a photo a little door would open, let in light, the right amount of light, then close. Poof! your image is now on the film. The little door could be open 1/100 of a second 1/60 of a second etc. On 35mm cameras you could control the little door, called the shutter, depending what the amount of light that existed when you take the picture or how fast your film was.

When we took a picture with a camera you would hear a clicking noise. That was the shutter, or the little door opening and closing.

Of course, modern film was fast. That is to say, it recorded the image in a split second. Most good camera's had shutter settings of 1/2000 of a second for action photography. Very fast film

Back in Lizzie's day, film was slow. Very slow. This meant that when the photographer took the picture he would need perhaps 5, 8, 10, seconds or more, depending on how bad the light was.

So, let us say he needed 10 seconds. He would push the shutter. The little door would open, and it would take 10 seconds to record the image. If you were in the photo, it was very important not to move, or your image would not be clear.

If you watch movies of Victorian times, or a Western, you may see the photographer use a lens over as the shutter. He would put the film in the camera and when it was time to push the button, he would take the lens cover off count to 10, then place the lens cover back. Presto. image captured.

Now, if someone is in the photo for only 5 seconds, then walks out of the picture, the film would not completely catch him. So, if it was a 10 second shot, he could have walked into the picture at the 5th second or walked out of it after 5 seconds, and not be completely recorded, thus a see through image.

capiche?
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:11 am

There was no testimony at the trial or any of the preliminary procedures about who the individual was in the photograph. Walsh, the photographer, had this to say about the photography session:

Walsh, Trial, p.123:
Q. In who’s presence were these views taken?
A. There were several officers there and Dr. Dolan.
Q. Was Dr. Dolan present while each view which you have identified was taken?
A. I could not say that he was present at all of them; he was at some of them.
Q. Do you remember what officer was present at all of them?
A. No, I could not say any officer was present at all,—going in and out of the room.

He would have had a graphic reminder of any police officer present in any of his photographs, he had him on film, so he would have remembered an officer if he had inadvertently wandered into the room. He testified to Dr. Dolan's presence, in fact Dr. Dolan was directing Walsh. The photographs were for the use of himself and Marshal Hilliard. A uniformed police officer would have worn a uniform with a double row of brass buttons, and a badge on the left breast of the coat, neither of which is present on the man in the photo. There were officers present who were in civilian clothes, but since the question was never asked about an unidentified man in the photo and since Walsh had testified to Dr. Dolan's presence, it is probably Dr. Dolan in the photograph.
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby mbhenty » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:56 am

:smile:

Yes Yooper:

Good assessment.

But, if you can forgive me............. you may not have it right.

I have studied this photo very carefully in the past, many times, even blowing it up and adjusting hue and tone to bring out any hidden clues. I even tried to ID the fellow by name, but there's not enough showing in the photo.

I'm afraid that if you study the photo much more closely, you will discover that the man is most likely an officer indeed.

It is not very clear, but he appears to be holding a police hat tucked under his left arm. Also if you follow his sleeve down to his hand, which is not visible, you will discover two stripes on his sleeve. He is ether a corporal or a sergeant. (sergeants usually had 3 stripes.) He appears to be holding his hands together behind his back.

None-the-less, fun guessing at such things, huh?
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby mbhenty » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:48 am

:smile:

Yes, one final note before bed. :oops: :oops: :oops:

I would like to say that the fellow in the photo is Hilliard. Sure looks like him.

Hilliard would have been 44 years old. The fellow in the photo looks like he has very dark hair, though. And, Marshalls did not wear stripes on their sleeves. There's a better chance that it is not him.

But, boy, that is his mustache and receding hairline. And he was there that day.

Or is it Pat Doherty? Though, he would have a uniform. With all the brass buttons on their uniforms you should see one or two in the photo......but we don't.

The give-away, if there is one, is in the mustache. I know. I've worn one for over 40 years. Hey, wait a minute. How can that be right if I'm only 22?
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:05 am

I may indeed be wrong about the man being Dr. Dolan, I have not examined the photograph in any detail other than what has been presented. I think we need to be careful in comparing photos, the pictures were clearly taken at different times. Facial hair can be grown, trimmed, or shaven off. Hairlines can and do recede, more or less rapidly depending on the individual, and people gain and lose weight. A substantial difference in time between the photo from the sitting room and one taken of a single individual could show a substantial difference in appearance.

Doherty was present that day and he was wearing civilian clothes:

Mullaly, Trial, p.700:
Q. Mr. Doherty is an officer?
A. Yes, sir, he was in citizen’s clothes. I mean, in speaking of officers in that connection,
officers in uniform, and Mr. Doherty was in citizen’s clothes.
Q. If I understand you correctly, there were several officers in uniform and Mr. Doherty
in citizen’s clothes?
A. Yes, sir.

The last exchange in Walsh's testimony doesn't make any sense if it was anyone other than Dolan:

Q. Do you remember what officer was present at all of them?
A. No, I could not say any officer was present at all,—going in and out of the room.

All Walsh or the attorney had to do was look at the photograph and ask about or identify the man in question. The question addressed who may have been present for all of the photographs, so not asking specifically about the man in the photo could simply be an oversight.

As I remember, the photos were taken about the middle of the afternoon and the officers were away at times. Who was where, and when might eliminate a few possibilities.
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby LizbethTurner » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:45 am

Ear shapes do not change much over time. Can those be compared?
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:07 pm

You're right, Lizbeth, ears are constant as well as the length of the neck.

If careful scrutiny reveals a hat and stripes on the sleeve, why doesn't the same scrutiny show a badge and buttons? You're correct, Mike, this is a lot of fun!
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:28 pm

Dr. Dolan was called away at some time that day and he returned about 3:00-3:30:

Dolan, Trial, p.868-869:
Q. Did you return that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time did you get back to the house that day?
A. Somewhere between three and half past o’clock.
Q. Did you go into the house again
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you further examine the bodies of Mr. and Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes, sir, but I had the rooms photographed before anything was done with the bodies.
Q. Before you had the photograph of Andrew Borden taken, had any change been made
in the position of his body so that you had to restore it?
A. No, sir, not that I am aware of.
Q. Andrew Borden’s body had not been changed or disturbed and that is as it appeared
there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have a photograph taken of Mrs. Borden’s body?
A. I did.

There may have been a time lag of some length between the bodies being photographed if Dolan was directing Walsh as to what was needed, but it depends on when the photography was started. If Walsh started when Dolan returned at 3-3:30, then there probably was no time lag.
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:41 pm

One further thought, if Walsh was dependent on Dolan's direction, Walsh wouldn't have just arbitrarily taken photographs. This implies that Dolan would have been somewhere close by, if not in the room. While someone might have wandered into the room while the picture was taken, I expect there was some effort made to minimize the intrusions while Walsh was working, especially with the slow film speeds at the time. They didn't need a series of blurry ghost images decorating the evidence!
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby kssunflower » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:30 pm

Is that a cigar too perhaps? Or just blurry photograph.
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby mbhenty » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:08 pm

:grin:

Great research Yooper. Thanks for that.

What I am writing is fiction, so it's not important to get the facts right, but sometimes it's best to make a little effort to do so, and makes reading fiction a little more interesting.

But, great stuff.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yes kssunflower, a cigar, it's hard to tell with his face bashed in????? (Just kidding. I assumed it was a mustache. Could be a fat cigar.)
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Re: Andrew Borden Crime Scene photo

Postby Yooper » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:48 am

I wonder if the two stripes on the sleeve are the result of a double image or movement as the picture was taken? It might be that the shirt cuff projected beyond the jacket sleeve, and if the arm was moved as the photo was exposed it might appear as two separate stripes on the sleeve.
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