There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

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Allen
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Allen »

Spatter patterns are categorized into three different velocities. Because it is based on the force used to cause the patterns. Low, Medium, and High velocity. Low velocity is usually referred to as "dripping" blood. Is it usually blood that drips from a person or object as they are still, moving, walking, or running. Medium blood spatter is caused by blunt or sharp force trauma. That is, knives, hatchets, clubs, fists, arterial spurts, and sometimes cast-off. High Velocity blood spatter is often referred to as "mist" patterns. These are caused by high velocity attacks such as gunshot and explosions. "Cast off" blood is cast off of the weapon as it is in motion whether the weapon is blunt or sharp. Arterial spray is caused by the opening of the arterial artery. So whether the weapon is blunt or sharp the spatter patterns would be much the same.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by PossumPie »

Taking a deep breath, re-reading and re-thinking the whole 'scratching an itch' angle, I change my mind. I DON'T think she was in the barn for an embarrassing reason. The police found no evidence the dust was disturbed...so she lied at least about where in the barn she was...why would she lie? I suggested that she could have been cleaning up her menses...another embarrassing act that she may have lied about...but she probably would have said "I was in my room freshening up" and leave it at that, no need to lie. certainly wouldn't have done that in the barn. Why lie about your location??? Are we sure the police were correct in not finding the dust disturbed? I keep coming back to the one thing I can't resolve...the time between the two murders...
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Yes Franz:

My theory is not written in stone, that is to say, even I question my thesis as I have stated it as probable or actual, and instead consider it a foundation for constructive speculation or conjecture. Most of us are only left with our sensory faculties to decipher the real events of August 4th 1892 since very little constructive detail is actually known about what really went on inside 92 second street the day of the killings. Thus your educated guess is as well founded as any other Bordenian scholar.

My feeling about Lizzie hiring someone is a very fleeting one. In my mind's book of scenarios I have countless chapters to what really happened. Who knows. Your guess may be as good as mine. ( :?: )

But, one thing I feel sure of is that Lizzie did not swing the axe. If Bridget is telling the truth, there was no time for her to wash the blood, get rid of the bloody dress and get rid of the axe. That is why I say there was a third party. Another killer. Possibly hired by Lizzie. Since she had the most to profit. (Well, really Emma did, if you consider Massachusetts law, but I will not get into that right now)

But below are some of the FACTS.......



Andrew Borden was seen alive between 10:30 and 10:40.

Witnesses testified to it. Including Johnathan Clegg, Joseph Shortsleeves, James Mather, and Caroline Kelly.

By 11:10 (est.) Andrew Borden was dead.

Between the time he was seen and the time he was killed adds up to half hour or 25 minutes, approximately.

Within that time Borden had to walk home, talking to at least one gentleman and picking up a lock he found in the street as he went.

Having trouble getting into the house, Bridget let Borden in.

She then proceeded to wash the windows in the sitting room and then the windows in the dinning room.

Andrew Borden went upstairs to his room then came back down. Bridget saw Borden sit down in the dinning room,

then Borden moved to the rocker in the sitting room.

In that time Lizzie had some conversation with her father.

Borden moved to the sofa.

Then Lizzie set up and ironed some handkerchiefs and spoke to Bridget a while.

Bridget washed out her bucket and rags and went upstairs. All this happened between 10 to 20 minutes. 10 minutes following.... Lizzie was calling Bridget to tell her that her father was dead.

Total time between Andrew Borden being seen down at one of his shops and the time he was killed, approx. 30 minutes.

Time between the time Bridget saw Borden and Lizzie then went upstairs and came down, approx 10 minutes. Lizzie had 10 minutes to get rid of the dress wash up and get rid of the axe. (I presume she didn’t eat it)

Bridget remembers going up to her room around 11:00 when she heard the City Hall clock toll. A couple minutes after Lizzie had sounded the alarm that her father was killed.

When Bridget was called and made aware that Borden was killed, could not have been more than 10 minutes (est.) from the time she was done washing windows and the time Andrew Borden was killed.

There is no way in God’s good earth that Lizzie could have killed her father, washed away the blood, got rid of the dress and the axe.

Not probable if not possible. Lizzie did not do the murders. But all circumstantial signs point to her.

No, I cannot prove that Lizzie Borden had planned or hired someone to do the murders, but we cannot prove that she did not.

Someone, I say, someone took the axe away. Otherwise, how to you explain what happened to it.

So Lizzie did not kill her parents. But, I just don’t believe she did not know who did.

Even John Morse knew someone was dead the day he returned to the house and refused to enter right away. Did he hire someone? Who knows.

Lizzie did.

Thus we are left with one of the most mysterious and enigmatic crimes ever committed in the 19th century.

And your scenario is as good as mine.

And we all retire to write books and wave the banner of truth as we see it.

Interesting, no?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

Bridget testified at the preliminary hearing that she estimated the time she went upstairs as 4-5 minutes before hearing the 11:00 bell. She was in her room 3-4 minutes before the bell, again an estimate. Her trial testimony bears this out. If we're talking about a 30 minute time span from the time Andrew arrived until he was killed, then Bridget had about the same amount of time to let Andrew in the house with difficulty, wash four windows, and wash and put away her cleaning implements, as Lizzie had to kill Andrew, clean up an unknown amount of blood which may or may not have gotten on her dress, and hide the hatchet. There may have been a small amount of time between sending Bridget on errands and speaking to Mrs. Churchill, but certainly not much.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

:smile:


Hear, hear, Yooper!

:study:
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

The only difference between blood splatter with a flashlight and blood splatter with a hatchet, is when you use a flashlight the blood is brighter. :roll: :oops:

The first flashlights did not come out until 1900 or so. Even then they were very unreliable. It would be another 10 years or so before police began using flashlights as a common piece of equipment.

Most (flash) lights in Lizzie's day were kerosene. Lanterns.

Below is a piece displaying some interesting items carried by police in Lizzie's day.


http://www.rosenberg-library-museum.org ... police.htm
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Of course, when I go on a crime spree I don't use a flashlight. I take my Dog.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Angel »

WHAT? Should Onslow know that you're seeing another dog?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Yes:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks Angel for remembering Onsloe.

Yes, he was sort of depressed when I broke the news to him.

At the time he was in the front hallway scraping, painting and wallpapering.

Poor guy.

He just stood there and looked at me.

I didn't know what to say.

So, I opened the door and let the other dog out. I'll purchase a proper flashlight at Home depot later today.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :oops:
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Angel »

He is soooo cute.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by NancyDrew »

To mbhenty: Thank you SO MUCH for that concise timeline you produced. You distilled a lot of confusing facts down to a coherent scenario.

EXCEPT.

What if Bridgette was lying? What if she didn't finish cleaning the windows right after Mr. Borden came home? What if she didn't go upstairs when she said she did? In fact, what if she never went upstairs at all?

Riddle me this, Batman..just humor me. Take Bridgette's testimony completely out of the equation, and then let's re-do the time line. We know Andrew was seen downtown. We know the neighbor saw him fiddling with the door. And then...

WHAT?

Is the first "non-Bridgette" piece of the story when Mrs. Churchhill called over to Lizzie or was it the phone call that rang at the police station?

Does this change things?

I'm bothered by all things Bridgette the more i study this...I know that many folks have a hard time with her motive. I know that she was forced to walk to court every day while the Divine Mizz L took a carriage. I know that she was a poor Irish immigrant who had a good relationship with the Bordens (although we really don't know, do we? We only know that she wanted to leave their employ, and they convinced her to stay. We know she didn't speak ill of them at the inquest. We know they called her by her REAL name, and not some Irish-slang "Maggie")

But...
1. During the trial, isn't it true that she began wearing very expensive clothes; including a hat, parasol, handbag, and expensive hankerchiefs? (Prior she owned 2 dresses to her name).
2. Didn't she high-tail it back to Ireland right after the trial, and BUY her own farm? (that's a neat trick for a woman who could barely afford her own keep.)
3. Didn't she have a documented deathbed attack of conscience, that was turned around when her health suddenly improved?
4. Wasn't she a rather odd woman? As she got older, people didn't have kind things to say about her. Hard, mean, distant. Those are the words I've read. Are they true?

No one EVER knows what really goes on in a family unless you're there living in the house, day after day after day. A cramped, unlighted, unheated house with no running water and no flush toilets.

It was 80 degrees and humid today and I though I'd faint from the heat...and that was working here in my home office with 2 giant fans. I can't imagine what 2 young girls in heavy dresses might do...

Thoughts?
Last edited by NancyDrew on Tue May 21, 2013 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Ahhhh! There you have it NancyD.

How true. What if Bridget was lying? Someone got rid of the Axe.

Please tell me. What happen to the axe?

Now, if Bridget was a liar then the entire timeline and the testimony both she and Lizzie gave means nothing.

She could have gotten rid of the axe for Lizzie. (If Lizzie did it)

If Bridget is telling the truth, then there is not much time between the time she went upstairs and saw Borden alive and the time she was called and came down.

Lizzie just did not have time to wash and get rid of the axe.

Unless,

Unless, Bridget did not tell the truth, never went upstairs and helped Lizzie clean up or get rid of the axe.

What if Bridget Lied.

Changes everything.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

Including Bridget changes things drastically. There is no hatchet carrying intruder exiting the Borden house unnoticed in broad daylight. Andrew might have begun his nap immediately after changing his coat, allowing the better part of a half hour for the deed. However, I wonder if Bridget knew that Abby was also dead?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Yes:

NancyD.

A couple of things, if you please.

There is no proof that Bridget went back to Ireland to buy a farm. Though she did go back Ireland but not until just about 3 years after the deaths of her employer, Abby Borden.

At that time it was not possible for her to purchase farm land, even if she had the means. Most of the land in Ireland was owned by a small number of rich landlords. Mostly all the farmland was rented to farmer by these landlords. You couldn't purchase farmland until 1902 when the Wyndham Land purchase Act was passed in Ireland.

Bridget went to Ireland in 1895 and was there for less than a year. (9 months)

She could not have purchased land.

Another thing was that the house was not cramped. Not sure if you have visited number 92. There was ample, if not plenty of room at 92 Second Street. Just laid out badly. Also, at the time of Borden's death the house had central heating.....cast iron radiators.

Sadly, some of theses rumors were made popular by sensationalized accounts by authors, many authors, who just did not do their homework.

It is true that Bridget was sort of excentric if not onerous and grumpy. It is also rumored that she enjoyed a beer once in a while. All in all, sounds like my kind of woman.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

Yes:

Haven't heard from Franz. :?:

In no way was I trying to be disrespectful in my vigorous and aggressive approach to his synopsis. There is no hostility or truculence towards him as a fellow poster.

So all is good Franz. Continue to post. After all, you have awakened the dragon and started a lively conversation here on the Lizzie Borden Forum. Things have been too quite for too long.

So, what say you Franz?

:smile:
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

You too Allen. I sense you didn't like my little joke. All you need do is tell me to stop it. And, I will.

:roll: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :puppydogeyes:
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by NancyDrew »

reply to mbhenty:

My apologies for posting unsubstantiated facts. I think I got the idea that Bridgette bought a farm from Lincoln's book...or if not, then from the hundreds of articles I've read about this case...and I need to be reminded not to post things I cannot cite. Thank you.

I desperately want to purchase the Rebello book, but cannot afford it at this time. (Unless you know where I can get a really good deal; I have no problem buying a fairly used product.) From what I've read here, he is the best authority for the truth regarding this case.

Okay, so post-mea culpa, let me explore this a bit further.

If Bridgette was lying, and helped Lizzie cover up any part of this crime, what would be her motive? Do you think it is safe to say that humans are generally motivated to action by 2 things: REWARD and FEAR.

Reward: Is there any evidence that Lizzie paid off Bridgette...paid off enough to justify Bridgette lying to authorities?
Fear: What might Lizzie have held over Bridgette's head to coerce her into participating in a cover-up. A past crime? Something that might get her deported? Or maybe she helped Lizzie with a small part of the clean-up, and once she had done that, Lizzie talked her into lying by saying "you're already involved...up to your eyeballs...keep your silence and stick to the story we rehearsed or I'll be forced to tell the police you helped me."

There is a 3rd possibility...'revenge.' This is going way out on a limb, but if Bridgette somehow knew that Lizzie was being mistreated by her father, she might have empathized enough to help her with his murder.

And I still haven't answered the question: Did Bridgette know about Abby?

I'm trying hard to visualize a conversation between Lizzie and Bridgette in which they plan a double murder together:

Lizzie: "Something must be done about father and Mrs. Borden. I am afraid he is drawing up a will and will leave the majority of his money to Mrs. Borden.
Bridgette: "Miss Lizzie, what are you thinking?"
Lizzie: "When the time is right, I'm going to do away with that mean old thing. Father must be killed too, as he will immediately know that the I am the one who
committed this deed."
Bridgette: "Miss Lizzie, you must be crazy! You cannot kill Mr. and Mrs. Borden. That's murder! You'll hang!"
Lizzie: "I'd rather be dead than live on the streets, and that is what will happen to me if I don't act soon."
Bridgette: "I'll have no part of it, Lizzie. It's the devil's work!"
Lizzie: "You WILL help me, Maggie, or I'll tell them you was the one who done it...and who will the police believe? A woman like me, from a fine family, or a poor
scullery maid like you?"
Bridgette: "But what will you do? How will you do this thing?"
Lizzie: "Never you mind that. But when the time comes, and I call for you, do as I say."

Does that sound plausible to anyone?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

mbhenty wrote:Yes:

Haven't heard from Franz. :?:

In no way was I trying to be disrespectful in my vigorous and aggressive approach to his synopsis. There is no hostility or truculence towards him as a fellow poster.

So all is good Franz. Continue to post. After all, you have awakened the dragon and started a lively conversation here on the Lizzie Borden Forum. Things have been too quite for too long.

So, what say you Franz?

:smile:
Hello mbhenty! All is OK, indeed. I have been reading the documents concerning the Borden case that I found on the website. In Rome I haven't found any book. What a pity!
Your criticism is absulutely welcomed!!! :grin:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Oh NancyDrew, what a talented (and hearty) scenarist you are!
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes:

Right you are NancyD.

The rumor that Bridget went to Ireland to buy a farm was first promulgated by Lincoln in her book A private disgrace Lizzie Borden by daylight.

To me, the private disgrace is that Vicky wrote a book on the subject.

Whether the Farm rumor was started by Lincoln or something she found in some news rag is unknown to me. It does not come up in any of the other accounts, Kent, Speiring, Radin, De mille, Rebello, Sullivan, etc., Leave it up to Lincoln to plant a little hearsay or gossip.

:study:
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Allen »

When researching the case I stick to the primary source documents.These are the witness statements, inquest testimony, preliminary hearing, and trial transcripts. I give newspaper accounts a passing interest but I take them all with a grain of salt. But newspaper accounts, even when rife with inaccuracies, are still given more authority in my eyes than any account written by an author because they are first person accounts from people who were actually there. The reporters talked to witnesses, sat in at the trial, even followed the local rumor mill...etc. Most authors go into writing a book with their own agenda and may bend the facts to fit this agenda. And they really are no more knowledgeable on the case than anyone else who has taken the time to research the same documents, or ask the same questions, that are available to the rest of the world. The only author who has written a book on the crime that I take seriously is Rebello.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Up to now several theories concerning the sex have been proposed: John V. Morse’s being homosexual, Lizzie and Bridget’s lesbian affair, Mr. Borden’s sexual abuse, and maybe others that I ignore. Compared to all these theories, I would say that Lizzie’s masturbation is more probable, or, the least improbable, if I want to seem more modest.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by SallyG »

You know what they say...there are those who do it, and those who lie about it! LOL!! Looking at it from a womans angle, going to the barn seems like a stretch. A woman is much more likely to choose a comfortable and secure place where she is not going to be interrupted. And if Lizzie was still menstruating, it makes it even more unlikely. It's not the most pleasant time of the month to begin with, and I think for the large majority of woman, that would be the last thing they feel like doing!

Personally, I don't believe Lizzie went to the barn at all, unless she was cleaning up from the murders.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by NancyDrew »

I agree with you, SallyG...I don't think Lizzie was ever in the barn. Why? Because the police searched the barn pretty thoroughly and 1. there were no footprints (never mind places where her long Bengaline silk skirt would have disturbed the thick dust) and 2. it was so darned hot...hard to imagine wanting to spend any time there.

Now that I think about it, the whole barn story is so strange. Why say anything at all about it? Why didn't she just say, "I went outside for some fresh air [she had been sick, after all], I had a taste for pears, I thought I heard a noise, or a million other better excuses for why she wasn't in the house while someone was slicing her father's eyeball in half..
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

Sticky pear juice, grimy barn, sheets of oxidized lead, we might imply Lizzie's hands needed washing at some point if she had been in the barn. If so, why didn't she mention it?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

It seems that your focus is more on the place --- the barn --- than the masturbation itself. I said that Lizzie's lie could have been bigger that I imagined. She could have been masturbating in the water closet in the cellar at the moment of her father's murder.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Hello NancyDrew, the alleged absence of footprints is questionable, just as the inside temperature of the barn. I copied the following paragraph from a website dedicated to the Borden case:

"Even their search of the barn was held in suspicion after Officer Medley reported that he had seen no footprints in the dust of the barn, an observation that tended to disprove Lizzie's alibi. Even this, however, was called into question after it was demonstrated that other police officers may have been up in the barn before Medley's inspection and certainly their footprints must have been evident. "
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

SallyG wrote:A woman is much more likely to choose a comfortable and secure place where she is not going to be interrupted.
You are probably right, SallyG. But, 1. If Lizzie were innocent, at the point of leaving the house, she would have been very sure that she would not be interrupted in the barn, or in the water closet in the cellar, because Bridget and her father were both having the rest. 2. A more comfortable place for intimate activities is certainly a better choice, but it is only a matter of "much more likely". Any sexologist can tell us that the places for such a thing are really innumerable.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

The most difficult obstacle in this hypothesis is accepting the premise that Lizzie would rather die on the gallows than admit to masturbation. I don't care if Victorian times dictated more stringent social values, it was not, and is not, a trade anyone is likely to make.

Yes, she could have gone to the cellar for the same reason, or, as has been mentioned several times, she would most likely have locked herself in her room. The focus on the barn is due to the fact that Lizzie said she was there. She could have been in the cellar and said she was in the barn, or she could have been killing Andrew and said she was in the barn, what is the point?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Yooper wrote:The most difficult obstacle in this hypothesis is accepting the premise that Lizzie would rather die on the gallows than admit to masturbation.
To be honest I don't think this premise really existed, because when she was questioned by police officers the murder's day, the August 4th, and a couple of days later by Knowlton, she certainly couldn't admit to masturbation, and she lied to cover her secret. At that moment she probably didn't realized that she was running the risk to be hung. And afterwards, fortunately, the issue would not be touched. She burnt into tears when she heard this good news: she would be saved, not only her life, but also her honor.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Smudgeman »

Give me a break Franz, do you really believe what you are saying? There is no honer in masturbating.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

I'm beginning to wonder if the focus here is really the Borden case, or if it is something else.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

I mean, if Lizzie admited to the masturbation, or, at any point of the trial, she was obliged to confess the truth in order to save her life, wouldn't her honor be damaged at that time? Was there any woman at Victorian time who declared to perform such a thing?

Don't worry, Yooper, my focus is always on Lizzie's innocence (or her guilt).
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Yooper »

There weren't many women during Victorian times or any other time period, who were masturbating while their father was killed, so I doubt it was put to the test. Do you suppose she was also masturbating while Abby was killed? What other matter of honor was at stake on that occasion?
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

It seems that the word “honor” created some misunderstanding. I used this word here as a synonym of “reputation”.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Yooper wrote:There weren't many women during Victorian times or any other time period, who were masturbating while their father was killed...
Yooper, you are absolutely right. You know better than me that there weren't many murders so extraordinay as the Borden case. The Borden case is so extraordinary and I believe that that day something of extraordinary occured in the Borden house. If Lizzie were innocent, she would have been very very unlucky that day, and the true murderer, an intruder, very very lucky. That's why we still, 120 years later, discuss the case and can't find a convincing solution.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Aamartin »

even today-- I don't think most people would offer up masturbation (true or otherwise) as an alibi. Period.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Yes, even today… so imagine Lizzie in 1892.

I know that most members in this forum are convinced for Lizzie’s guilt. OK. But this is only a personal opinion, I’m more convinced for her innocence, and this is only a personal opinion, too. Guilt or innocence, the historic truth is one of them, but we don’t know which one. From a neutral point of view, Lizzie has always 50% chance to be innocent. So I invite whoever convinced for her guilt to suppose for just one minute that Lizzie were innocent, and to make this question: why Lizzie, being innocent, had to lie on her alibi issue? To be honest I can’t find another theory more probable than this topic that we are discussing here.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

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I LOVE this forum...but one weakness I see is the disjointedness of it. Because posts must be screened first, there can really be no dialogue. As I reply to a post, others from days before are inserted, and the whole thread seems hirky-jerky. Anyway...Replying to NancyDrew discussing Bridget keeping a secret, I find it difficult to believe anyone keeping such a huge secret their whole life. I think a killer who 'gets away with it' can feel lucky and perhaps never tell anyone, but involve 2 or more people in a conspiracy and someone always tells...My humble opinion.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Aamartin »

And, to be honest. I don't think that she was doing anything of the sort in that barn......
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Hello Aamartin, in your opinion, if Lizzie were not killing her father, what kind of thing was she doing that she had to lie to the authorities? What kind of thing was she trying to cover?
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Aamartin »

First of all, I want Lizzie to be innocent. However, I am not convinced of it. This is a conclusion I have come to after years of interest in the case, reading ALL the source documents as well as everything else ever written about Lizzie.

And I don't mean to be rude-- but would you sneak out to an outbuilding on your property to masturbate in broad daylight?

What 'turned' her on? Ironing?

As stated by others-- she could have gone out there for numerous unmentionable purposes... Maybe she never went out there at all-- maybe she was pulling stories out of thin air due to the fact that she was in shock-- or that she lied....

For me, the things that I find difficult to reconcile are....

1)- Let us assume she DID come in from the barn and found her father brutally hacked to death-- why stay in the house? Where was the natural instinct to flee?
2)- The whole 'I think I heard her come in' nonsense about Abby.
3)- lack of any other sensible solution-- the whole quacks like a duck theory....

And while I am compelled to want to believe she is innocent-- and especially after reading 'Parallel Lives' -- see a lovely woman-- I do believe a person can snap, kill and then go on to lead a violence free life. I believe a person could kill for money-- and once they have it-- have no need to kill again.

IF Lizzie did it-- I believe it was a situational murder -- one born out of need (greed) and once the deed was done-- she resumed her life as best she could.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by PossumPie »

Aamartin, you bring up some valid points. I re-read Lizzie's testimony about being in the barn, she put the irons on to get hot, they were not hot enough, she thought how hot the day was and how it would be nice to be at the farm. That made her think of fishing, and she went to the barn to find some metal for sinkers. She admits she hadn't fished in 5 years, that she couldn't remember if she had hooks, or sinkers, that she thought there were both, but wanted to be sure about the sinkers, that she went to the barn for 20-30 min to look for sinkers, and eat some pears. That she didn't "hurry" b/c she isn't in the habit of hurrying. NOW...Everything makes sense there except the time. I did an experiment, and went out into my garage to "look for sinkers" after 5 min, I had gone through many boxes, and was bored. 15 min was extraordinarily long time to wander around in my garage, admittedly a cluttered mess...I found all kinds of things I forgot I had, but it was hot and I was ready to leave. I sat on a bucket looking at my watch the last 5 min, and can't see how Lizzie could have done that for a half hour...knowing it was hot, that her flat irons were on the stove and were ready after the first 5 min. and that she felt 'queezy' already from whatever ailed her that day. It sounded implausible as soon as it was out of her mouth, but she had to stick to the story. Even when the police said there was no dust disturbed in the loft, she had to stick to the story.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Hi PossumPie, your post will be published automaticly after you will have posted 50 times.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

Hi Aamartin, even though I am more convinced for Lizzie's innocence, I have to say there are at least two things I can't find an explanation. The first is mentioned by you: Lizzie’s declaration “'I think I heard her (Abby) come in”. Second, the note story. But many other indications make me think that the murderer more likely wasn’t Lizzie. I will post other topics.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Franz »

PossumPie wrote:Replying to NancyDrew discussing Bridget keeping a secret, I find it difficult to believe anyone keeping such a huge secret their whole life.
Bridget had no difficluty to keep the supposed secret, simply because she had no secret to keep at all: she had nothing to do with the murders, neither Lizzie...just my humble opinion.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by NancyDrew »

Franz:

I don't see how Bridgette could NOT be involved. The brutal hacking of two people to death wasn't a silent thing. It would have produced some noise. And then the person would have to flee. Bridgette was in and out of the house, resting upstairs, in the yard...she was in the thick of things. I had a hard time believing that, as Lizzie claims, she heard and saw absolutely nothing.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Allen »

I do not buy the masturbation theory at all. It just doesn't make sense to me.

As to Bridget being involved first I believe Bridget was outside when Abby was killed. The killing of Abby was no doubt not a silent thing in my opinion either. Abby saw her killer. I do wonder why Abby did not SCREAM as she was being attacked. But Bridget being outside she may not have heard anything. If we go by that thought process anyone walking by outside of the house, the Kelly maid, and the men working behind the house should have heard something. She was upstairs on the third floor when Andrew was killed. I'm not sure how sound would carry up to the third floor. I'm not sure what sound there would have been other than the sounds of the blows themselves if indeed Andrew was sleeping, or struck unaware from behind. That would be an experiment to try sometime if anyone ever has a chance. But that may not have carried up to the third floor.

I do agree with Aamartin that Lizzie should have had some instinct to flee for her own safety after she came in to find Andrew that way. But she does not. She also does not rush to him as you would think a daughter would upon finding her father that way. She then sends the only other living person out of the house so she is alone. First sending Bridget to get Bowen who was not in. Which makes sense. Then to get Alice. Which does not make sense. What was Alice going to do? It seemed to me she just wanted Bridget out of the house.

I also have a problem with her supposedly hearing Abby come in.If she thought she heard Abby come in why did she not think it strange that she didn't SEE her? That Abby didn't speak to anyone, wonder where Bridget might be, and what was going on? Why would Abby have not seen Andrew's body just as Lizzie had and screamed? Lizzie was supposedly standing at the back door as she sent Bridget out to find Bowen and Alice Russell. How did Abby get in? If she came in the front door Andrew's body would have been one of the first things she had seen.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Allen »

The windows of the home where also closed during the killing of Abby. Bridget had closed the downstairs windows in order to wash them. I have often wondered if Lizzie had not brought it up to Abby that the windows needed washing. So that Abby might have Bridget clean them that morning. Because not only was Bridget outside and out of the way, but she had to close the windows on that hot day. Without air conditioning what other reason would someone have for closing the windows on such a hot day.
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Re: There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Post by Aamartin »

And if Abby did come in from tending to a sick friend-- how did she get in? Andrew had to be let in the front door-- and if Abby came in the side door Lizzie would have had to have seen her-- or if she was upstairs-- one would think she heard her ascend the staircase. Likewise, if Abby somehow got in the front door-- would she go directly upstairs to the guest room? I doubt it-- she'd have to put her purse away or whatever she might have worn or taken with her to the sick bed. This would mean she would have to go up the back stairs to her room. I doubt she'd wear her everyday dress to tend a sick person. What? She rushes off, do-rag on her head to help a friend--then comes home and immediately commences her housework again? Never would have happened. Even if Abby LIED to Lizzie and said she had to go out due to a note-- did she then sneak upstairs to 'hide' in the guestroom when her own bedroom had a lockable door? From what we know about the home, I would think she could have claimed to be going out and then just remained in her room--with no one being the wiser. Lizzie didn't enter her room and I doubt Bridget would have either.

I live in a house built in 1883. Very solidly built. I cannot hear someone calling me from the living room if I am in the kitchen-- nor can my sons hear me calling them from the foot of the staircase unless I really call out very loudly... However-- I CAN hear something falling to the floor of considerable weight from upstairs. Also-- did the killer miss at all? Were there any hack marks on the floor or in the carpeting? Do we even know for sure that Abby fell? Could she have dropped to her knees-- or already been on the floor?
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