Maggie, I am almost certain I heard her come in

[PossumPie]

Testimony- Bridget: (right after Bridget returned from looking for a doctor) [Lizzie] says "I'm positive I heard [Mrs. Borden] coming in. Won't you go upstairs to see?" I said, "I am not going upstairs alone."


NOW...Lizzie called from the back screen door that her father was dead. Bridget heard Lizzie clearly from her third floor room

Bridget comes downstairs Lizzie says Father's dead. Lizzie says that she had been in the yard and heard a groan. Lizzie says get a doctor. Lizzie says Mrs. Borden surely came home go upstairs and see.

What a strange thing! Bridget or Lizzie could call "Mrs. Borden!" up the back steps then up the front steps, and Mrs. Borden would have heard. WHY DID LIZZIE suggest Bridget find Mrs. Borden by going upstairs? That wouldn't have been the first thought I had, just holler up, which is what Lizzie JUST DID to get Bridget. This verbal exchange was the first between anyone and Lizzie after the murder of her father moments before. In it Lizzie 1. Tries to get Bridget out of the house to a doctors, and a neighbors. 2. Lizzie tries to get Bridget to go upstairs where she would have found Mrs. Borden's body. NOW...

A little later, Lizzie AGAIN says "go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden" Don't you think with all that noise that Mrs. Borden would have come down? It almost certainly means that Lizzie KNEW Mrs. Borden was dead upstairs. I would have just assumed that if she hadn't come down that she was still out tending a sick friend. This struck me like a proverbial brick when I re-read it. It is so subtle, but if you really think about it...this is huge. We all have thought of Lizzie's second attempt to get Bridget to go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden, but to me, this first attempt IMMEDIATELY after the discovery of Mr. Borden's body is much more telling.

[Allen]

I've read that statement by Bridget. Coupled with the fact that Lizzie also told Mrs. Churchill that she thought she heard Abby come in as soon as Mrs. Churchill arrived I had always assumed the same things. She claimed to have heard Abby come in before she even sent Bridget for the doctor. When would this have occurred? Why didn't Abby speak to Lizzie or check in with Bridget about the chores? Why would Abby go directly upstairs to the guest room upon arriving home? Why did she not come downstairs during the commotion? And most importantly she would have seen Andrew's body when she came home and called out for help. It would have been one of the first sights to meet her upon walking in the door. Lizzie didn't hear Abby come in. Because Lizzie knew Abby was dead upstairs.

[PossumPie]

I've read that statement by Bridget. Coupled with the fact that Lizzie also told Mrs. Churchill that she thought she heard Abby come in as soon as Mrs. Churchill arrived I had always assumed the same things. She claimed to have heard Abby come in before she even sent Bridget for the doctor. When would this have occurred? Why didn't Abby speak to Lizzie or check in with Bridget about the chores? Why would Abby go directly upstairs to the guest room upon arriving home? Why did she not come downstairs during the commotion? And most importantly she would have seen Andrew's body when she came home and called out for help. It would have been one of the first sights to meet her upon walking in the door. Lizzie didn't hear Abby come in. Because Lizzie knew Abby was dead upstairs.

Yes Allen, I don't know why it struck me so hard...Her father was JUST found dead and she's not hollering for her step-mother, but trying to convince people to go upstairs...?

[Aamartin]

This is one of the major points I cannot reconcile in my mind to point to any shred of Lizzie being innocent. We could go on for days as to how impossible this scenario is....

Abby comes home-- where is her purse?
She went out with that rag on her head?
Like above-- she comes in and goes right upstairs? No checking on Bridget?
She didn't have anything to put down? Didn't Lizzie state that Abby told her she was going to pick up something for the evening meal?

Lizzie was VERY careless by saying she thought she heard her come in... Better to wait for the police to search the premises or even to go up to her own room and pretend to find her then...

[PossumPie]

This is one of the major points I cannot reconcile in my mind to point to any shred of Lizzie being innocent. We could go on for days as to how impossible this scenario is....

Abby comes home-- where is her purse?
She went out with that rag on her head?
Like above-- she comes in and goes right upstairs? No checking on Bridget?
She didn't have anything to put down? Didn't Lizzie state that Abby told her she was going to pick up something for the evening meal?

Lizzie was VERY careless by saying she thought she heard her come in... Better to wait for the police to search the premises or even to go up to her own room and pretend to find her then...

Plus, we KNOW that house was a fortress...Father needed Maggie's help to get all the locks open but Mrs. Borden just waltzed in and went upstairs??? People stood guard at the doors when someone went out the door was relocked. Father re-hooked the door immediately after Morse left. Maggie told Lizzie that she could lock the door while Maggie was washing windows- she would get her water from the barn. The two common things that keep coming up in the story are pears and locks...!

[NancyDrew]

Very good analysis PossumPie. But..of course, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. (for the record, though, I agree with you.)

Why didn't Lizzie holler for her stepmother? Because that isn't done in polite families. For the maid? Yes. For the family: bad etiquette. When I was a child if my father said, go find your brother, and I yelled his name, I got in trouble. It was "uncouth." "Go and FIND HIM." I would be sternly told.

Lizzie could have argued that she knew Mrs. Borden had been sick and so therefore thought she might have been resting on her bed.

BUT. As Martin pointed out, where was her purse..her hat...her packages?

Why didn't the prosecution ask Lizzie about this?

[Allen]

Well, I'm not sure how uncouth it would have been to yell for your step mother when you had just found your father killed. I'm not sure there are any rules of etiquette for discovering a murder. Plus, we have Morse yelling for Lizzie when he got home. Even if Lizzie didn't yell for her, she didn't attempt to look for her at all. Not even to see if she was alright. Or to let her know that something was wrong. So much is just off with that whole idea I couldn't even list everything that bothers me about it. Aamartin is right. We could go on for days.

[Franz]

This is one of the major points I cannot reconcile in my mind to point to any shred of Lizzie being innocent ...

Lizzie was VERY careless by saying she thought she heard her come in...

Yes Aamartin, me too I think this is one of the majors points against Lizzie, and for me this is more difficult to explain even than the note story. But whoever believes Lizzie's innocence must face it. Up to now I have tried to explain her reactions after the discovery of her father's body, and the note's not being found. I will post a thread when I fell more ready for this, in my opinion, most crucial issue concerning Lizzie's innocence or her guilt.

For the moment, I wonder, if Lizzie did kill her parents, why was she, as you said, so "careless by saying she thought she heard her (Abby) come in"? Not only. Why was she so careless by not preparing a good alibi version? Why was she so careless when she answered to some most important questions of Knowlton? And why was she, this time, so "careful" to prepare such a complicated, sophisticated, but indeed, stupid, note story? why didn't she just say, to her father and to other people, that Abby had gone to the store?

I am not one who wants at any price that Lizzie was innocent. But when I consider her guilt, there are always a number of questions that trouble me. What I mentioned here are only few of them...

[PossumPie]

This is one of the major points I cannot reconcile in my mind to point to any shred of Lizzie being innocent ...

Lizzie was VERY careless by saying she thought she heard her come in...

Yes Aamartin, me too I think this is one of the majors points against Lizzie, and for me this is more difficult to explain even than the note story. But whoever believes Lizzie's innocence must face it. Up to now I have tried to explain her reactions after the discovery of her father's body, and the note's not being found. I will post a thread when I fell more ready for this, in my opinion, most crucial issue concerning Lizzie's innocence or her guilt.

For the moment, I wonder, if Lizzie did kill her parents, why was she, as you said, so "careless by saying she thought she heard her (Abby) come in"? Not only. Why was she so careless by not preparing a good alibi version? Why was she so careless when she answered to some most important questions of Knowlton? And why was she, this time, so "careful" to prepare such a complicated, sophisticated, but indeed, stupid, note story? why didn't she just say, to her father and to other people, that Abby had gone to the store?

I am not one who wants at any price that Lizzie was innocent. But when I consider her guilt, there are always a number of questions that trouble me. What I mentioned here are only few of them...

I don't believe she was "careless" In FACT it shows that no one can come up with perfect lies right on the spur of the moment. No matter how much anyone plans a murder, there are little things you can't anticipate. You try to make up a lie and get caught in inconsistencies, after all, no one can remember everything...Right?
Lizzie KNEW that her step-mother was upstairs dead. She needed the police to know that also. By saying "I heard Mrs. Borden come in" gets the ball rolling- the suspense was KILLING LIZZIE (no pun intended) Franz, you ask why Lizzie didn't just say Mrs. Borden went out to the store. Because, if she said that she heard her come back, and they found her body, Lizzie would be believed, If she said she heard Mrs. Borden go out, and she was found upstairs, it would make Lizzie look like she was hiding something.

Nancy Drew, I also respectfully disagree...when you find your father dead, you yell, to heck with "proper" Yell for Maggie, Yell for Mrs. Borden, UNLESS you are NOT surprised by finding him dead b/c you KILLED HIM!!! Then you would still follow "proper etiquette"

[twinsrwe]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

[PossumPie]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Mrs. Churchill:

When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your
father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your
mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too... Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must
have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will?
Yes. I did so. When I returned the first thing I recollect she, (Lizzie) said is, O, I shall have to go to the
cemetery myself.

Right from the beginning, Lizzie KNEW Mrs. Borden was dead. (Maggie go upstairs and find her) (O I shall have to go to the cemetery myself) (I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. )
Couple that with Lizzie telling Bridget "I was in the yard and heard a groan" then telling the police "I was upstairs in the barn and heard nothing" You can't mis-remember that, either you heard a groan in the yard, or you heard nothing up in the barn. One was a lie (or both?)

[Aamartin]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Excellent point! This is something I have never seen conjecture about before. Interesting.... Very interesting!

[Aamartin]

I don't think that Lizzie would have felt compelled to 'gently' search for Abby in any circumstance.

[twinsrwe]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Excellent point! This is something I have never seen conjecture about before. Interesting.... Very interesting!

Thanks, Aamartin. I also found it to be very interesting.

Check out the last paragraph, on page 11, of The Witness Statements:

Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?”
“Well, if I must, I cant be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my
neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your
father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your
mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any
man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must
have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will?
Yes. I did so. When I returned the first thing I recollect she, (Lizzie) said is, O, I shall have to go to the
cemetery myself. No, the undertaker will do that, was my reply.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... sState.pdf

[Franz]

...
Lizzie KNEW that her step-mother was upstairs dead.
...
Franz, you ask why Lizzie didn't just say Mrs. Borden went out to the store. Because, if she said that she heard her come back, and they found her body, Lizzie would be believed, If she said she heard Mrs. Borden go out, and she was found upstairs, it would make Lizzie look like she was hiding something.

...

1. When Lizzie said that she was almost certain she heard Abby come in, Lizzie was obviously lying. Can we say, therefore, that "Lizzie KNEW that her step-mpther was upstairs dead"? Yes we can, but we can say it only as a speculation.

2. My point is: why didn't Lizzie say that Abby had gone out to the store, instead of inventing the note story, if she premeditated the murder?

[Franz]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Excellent point! This is something I have never seen conjecture about before. Interesting.... Very interesting!

Me too I appreciate a lot your sensibility, twinsrwe, but meanwhile, I don't think your conclusion is the unique possibility. Lizzie's words about the funeral service of her father could be explained as well by the probable negligence that Abby suffered in the family. Lizzie (and maybe Emma) could inconsciously consider herself superior to her stepmother, especially for the things concerning the relationship with her father. Before such an extraordinary event, Lizzie could have no room in her mind to think that her stepmother had more rights to make a decision in such an affair.

I never think about this detail, aamartin said that he has never seen conjecture before. I am curious to know if someone thought about this immediately after having read the story for the first time. The Borden case happened 120 years ago, and the people interested in it can reflect and reflect and find apparent "anomalia", but Lizzie and Mrs. Churchill and others were living personally the tragedy. The event could make Lizzie forget the degree to respect concerning Abby. And Mrs. Churchill didn't say: "Oh Lizzie, how could you say such a thing! It's your mother Abby who has the right to make such a decision!"

In my opinon, Lizzie's words, more probably, could demonstrate the lack of real and sincere respect of Lizzie to her stepmother, instead of incriminating her.

[Aamartin]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Excellent point! This is something I have never seen conjecture about before. Interesting.... Very interesting!

Me too I appreciate a lot your sensibility, twinsrwe, but meanwhile, I don't think your conclusion is the unique possibility. Lizzie's words about the funeral service of her father could be explained as well by the probable negligence that Abby suffered in the family. Lizzie (and maybe Emma) could inconsciously consider herself superior to her stepmother, especially for the things concerning the relationship with her father. Before such an extraordinary event, Lizzie could have no room in her mind to think that her stepmother had more rights to make a decision in such an affair.

I never think about this detail, aamartin said that he has never seen conjecture before. I am curious to know if someone thought about this immediately after having read the story for the first time. The Borden case happened 120 years ago, and the people interested in it can reflect and reflect and find apparent "anomalia", but Lizzie and Mrs. Churchill and others were living personally the tragedy. The event could make Lizzie forget the degree to respect concerning Abby. And Mrs. Churchill didn't say: "Oh Lizzie, how could you say such a thing! It's your mother Abby who has the right to make such a decision!"

In my opinon, Lizzie's words, more probably, could demonstrate the lack of real and sincere respect of Lizzie to her stepmother, instead of incriminating her.

I think Twins is right on target.

I don't know why this never struck me until now-- perhaps it has been discussed. My ideas in the past were clouded by wanting Lizzie innocent.

I will admit that I think Lizzie tended to live in a vacuum and only saw how things affected her-- but I also believe that in that moment, she knew Abby was dead up in the guest room.

[Allen]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

That is an excellent observation twinsrwe. It's possible that Lizzie believed her role in the family was greater than that of Abby, but I find it doubtful. For me it does seem more likely she believed she would have to go to the cemetery to plan the funeral because Abby was dead as well. And it seems odd for her to deny knowing that he was positively dead when she found him, and telling Mrs. Churchill that she'd have to go to the cemetery herself. But why did Emma not enter into her mind?

[Aamartin]

Why call for a doctor one minute and plan to go to the cemetery the next?

[PossumPie]

I think the 'devil is in the details'. People have looked for over a hundred years for a huge, 'smoking gun' clue to find the killer. I think small details like what Twinsrwe found were overlooked, but are very telling. They don't prove anything of course, but they are meaningful. Often after a murder, the victims friends and family still talk in the present tense "He has so many friends" but sometimes the killer who premeditated the murder has thought long about the death, and uses past tense immediately "He HAD a lot of friends" Small things like that are not proof of guilt, but add weight along with the other facts. I am a nurse, and have dealt with death. I can't think of one instance where a loved one found out their parent died, and then said, "Well, I guess I will have to go to the cemetery alone" They resist thinking about the permanency of death. That is why the trade of "Mortician" is so vital in our society. They try hard not to think about death's permanency in the first hours, but a mortician gently brings the topic up to aid in the healing, and assist in the burial. For someone to LITERALLY talk about funeral arrangements for their father minutes after she found him hacked to death by a hatchet is...sociopathic!!! Yes, Allen, I said it!

Franz, Making up a lie about a note to see a sick friend or a lie about going to the store, neither matters. She just made it up. She could have said "I have no idea where she went, she just went out" I don't think WHERE matters...what matters is that Lizzie said Mrs. Borden left the house.

[NancyDrew]

Wow. Great analyses everyone. So many tiny things that add up to Lizzie's guilt, imo. One question: Why did she say she would have to go to the cemetery alone...what about her sister, Emma?

[Aamartin]

People talk about how sheltered and genteel of times those were-- yet the bodies were left in the house overnight! Imagine of that were to happen today!

A)- I would NOT sleep in a house someone I loved was murdered in. I don't care how many policemen surrounded the place. I don't think I could even stay there if I hated the person.
B)- I would LEAVE the house (at the very least) until the police were finished with the scene and the bodies were removed-- I expect by direction of the police even if I wanted to remain...

But that was then and this is now..

I can't imagine...

Bridget-- go get Alice... I'll stay here in this house, mere yards away from my hacked up father... I am not afraid. (Of course this has been discussed ad nauseum)
Time to rinse this slop pail-- lets carry it through the room where 2 cadavers are!

Poor Alice.

[Allen]

The bodies being kept in the house overnight, and the autopsy being performed right there, were actually both pretty common place occurrences then. Doing the autopsy and funeral in the home were actually common place clear up into the early twentieth century. Bodies were laid out and prepared for the funeral right there by the mortician also. I've seen vintage mortician equipment that was made to be portable so it could be carried to the home where the deceased was to be laid out for viewing.

[PossumPie]

The bodies being kept in the house overnight, and the autopsy being performed right there, were actually both pretty common place occurrences then. Doing the autopsy and funeral in the home were actually common place clear up into the early twentieth century. Bodies were laid out and prepared for the funeral right there by the mortician also. I've seen vintage mortician equipment that was made to be portable so it could be carried to the home where the deceased was to be laid out for viewing.

Agreed...And I would have no problem staying in a house that 2 murders were just committed in, especially if I knew the killer wasn't also after me- b/c I WAS THE KILLER!

[leitskev]

Excellent points! And pretty convincing, as is much of the circumstantial evidence against Lizzie.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, we do have to keep in mind the problem with eyewitness testimony.

Look at the Zimerman case. Initial reports had two neighbors testifying that they saw in man in the same color jacket as Zimmerman's on top of the other man. It was very damning testimony.

However, it proved false. The young man who was the closest witness clearly saw Zimmerman on the bottom. The injuries on Zimmerma's head really made clear what happened...that he was on the bottom being pummeled.

So how did two other neighbors see the opposite? Well, there was a lot of pressure on them by police and prosecutors. Their witness statements were first made days later. They didn't necessarily lie, in fact they were likely telling the truth as they remembered it. But memory is very easily manipulated by suggestion.

So there were eyewitness statements that Zimmerman was on top...and that he was on the bottom. Which were true?

The days events at the Borden household were traumatic for everyone. Easy to falsely remember things that were said in the heat of the moment, especially once everyone had been convinced Lizzie had done it.

And make no mistake, there was a huge rush to judgment, just like with the Olympic bomber in Atlanta. I'm not saying Lizzie didn't do it. What I am saying is that the whole town was quickly buzzing with the story that Lizzie did it. Much of that was probably fueled by things like Dr. Bowen's poison story. And this rush to judgment couldn't help but have a tremendous impact on the way people remembered things.

Once everyone was seeing the story a certain way, it starts to color their memory. So how reliable is Mrs. Churchill's memory? Can we be sure when Lizzie first mentioned the cemetery? Couldn't that have been later? How exactly did she phrase the request to search for Mrs. Borden? All of these things were being remembered long after the fact, and long after their brains had begun to process and store the memories with the assumption of Lizzie's guilt.

When I hear Mrs. Churchill starting her testimony with 'forgive me for talking about my neighbor'...my eyes roll, and I think here it comes! That's like when someone starts with "it's none of my business, but..." You know that person is eager to get involved in your business!

[Franz]

...

Franz, Making up a lie about a note to see a sick friend or a lie about going to the store, neither matters. She just made it up. She could have said "I have no idea where she went, she just went out" I don't think WHERE matters...what matters is that Lizzie said Mrs. Borden left the house.

Making up a lie about a note or a lie about going to the store could both provide her father of looking for Abby and explain to other people why she didn't think about Abby that morning, but there is a great difference: the note story (because if it were a lie, Lizzie should have known well that there would be nothing, note itself, writer, messenger) would incriminate Lizzie (just as it occured effectively), but a lie about going to the store would not.

Did Lizzie premeditate the murder? In these 120 years, so many people thought and think Lizzie was guilty, I don't believe that any of them had intention to insult Lizzie's intelligence. But from a certain point of view, this opinion effectively seems to me such an insultation.

[Franz]

Why call for a doctor one minute and plan to go to the cemetery the next?

For me there is nothing of strange in all of this. Even though Lizzie was certain that Andrew was dead, she could have asked someone - as she effectively did - to search for a doctor, to see if there were still by any chance something to do to save his life, or at least to ascertain his death. What did Mrs. Churchill suggest? "Lizzie, do you want I find a doctor?" (something like that), but before, Lizzie had told her: "Mrs. Churchill, do come here, someone killed father." In my opinion it's just the natural psycological reaction of the people before such a tragedy.

[twinsrwe]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

Excellent point! This is something I have never seen conjecture about before. Interesting.... Very interesting!

Me too I appreciate a lot your sensibility, twinsrwe, but meanwhile, I don't think your conclusion is the unique possibility. Lizzie's words about the funeral service of her father could be explained as well by the probable negligence that Abby suffered in the family. Lizzie (and maybe Emma) could inconsciously consider herself superior to her stepmother, especially for the things concerning the relationship with her father. Before such an extraordinary event, Lizzie could have no room in her mind to think that her stepmother had more rights to make a decision in such an affair.

I never think about this detail, aamartin said that he has never seen conjecture before. I am curious to know if someone thought about this immediately after having read the story for the first time. The Borden case happened 120 years ago, and the people interested in it can reflect and reflect and find apparent "anomalia", but Lizzie and Mrs. Churchill and others were living personally the tragedy. The event could make Lizzie forget the degree to respect concerning Abby. And Mrs. Churchill didn't say: "Oh Lizzie, how could you say such a thing! It's your mother Abby who has the right to make such a decision!"

In my opinon, Lizzie's words, more probably, could demonstrate the lack of real and sincere respect of Lizzie to her stepmother, instead of incriminating her.

I can see how you interpreted the lack of real and sincere respect of Lizzie to her stepmother, but that is just your opinion, which I respect you for. However, it is also my opinion that Lizzie’s action at that particular moment in time, indicates, to me, that she knew Abby was already dead. I hope you can appreciate my opinion, as I appreciate yours. You see, Franz, we are both forming our opinions without proof or sufficient evidence.

[twinsrwe]

…I think Twins is right on target.

I don't know why this never struck me until now-- perhaps it has been discussed. My ideas in the past were clouded by wanting Lizzie innocent.

I will admit that I think Lizzie tended to live in a vacuum and only saw how things affected her-- but I also believe that in that moment, she knew Abby was dead up in the guest room.

Thanks, Aamartin! This particular issue just struck me as a very odd thing for Lizzie to even be thinking about, let alone tell Mrs. Churchill her thoughts. It’s just strange, very strange!

I also find it extremely strange that, after the bodies of Abby and Andrew were discovered, Lizzie told Alice Russell that when the time came to call an undertaker she wanted Winward's. Does the fact that Lizzie stated she wanted Winward's so soon after the murders, seem a bit odd to you? It sure does to me!!!

[twinsrwe]

Something else that has always seemed odd to me is Lizzie’s conversation with Mrs. Churchill, about having to go to the cemetery herself to make funeral arrangements. This took place shortly after Mrs. Churchill arrived at the Borden’s house, and before Abby’s body was found. Lizzie was assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral arrangements when, it would have been Abby, his widow, who would have the right to make the final decisions. So, why would Lizzie think she had to go to the cemetery rather than Abby at that point?

For me, this clearly indicates that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

That is an excellent observation twinsrwe. It's possible that Lizzie believed her role in the family was greater than that of Abby, but I find it doubtful. For me it does seem more likely she believed she would have to go to the cemetery to plan the funeral because Abby was dead as well. And it seems odd for her to deny knowing that he was positively dead when she found him, and telling Mrs. Churchill that she'd have to go to the cemetery herself. But why did Emma not enter into her mind?

Thanks, Allen. Good question – why would Lizzie assume the funeral arrangements were solely her responsibility? Since Emma was the oldest sibling, wouldn't it have been her responsibility to make the funeral arrangements? Would the Whiteheads have any rights in making the funeral arrangements for Abby? After all, Emma and Lizzie had not been ‘adopted’ by Abby, and therefore they were step-daughters, where Abby’s sister was a blood relative. I don’t know, I’m just thinking out loud…

[twinsrwe]

I think the 'devil is in the details'. People have looked for over a hundred years for a huge, 'smoking gun' clue to find the killer. I think small details like what Twinsrwe found were overlooked, but are very telling. They don't prove anything of course, but they are meaningful. …

Thank you, PossumPie. I agree, the small details are often overlooked, but are indeed very telling, especially when one studies them along with the evidence found at any particular crime scene. Granted, they are not proof of guilt, but do add a lot of weight to the whole picture.

I am a nurse, and have dealt with death. I can't think of one instance where a loved one found out their parent died, and then said, "Well, I guess I will have to go to the cemetery alone" They resist thinking about the permanency of death. That is why the trade of "Mortician" is so vital in our society. They try hard not to think about death's permanency in the first hours, but a mortician gently brings the topic up to aid in the healing, and assist in the burial. For someone to LITERALLY talk about funeral arrangements for their father minutes after she found him hacked to death by a hatchet is...sociopathic!!! Yes, Allen, I said it! ….

I agree, PossumPie! I am a CNA and have also dealt with more death than I care to mention. I have never, ever, had any family members bring up funeral arrangements, or their preferred undertaker, within minutes of finding out their loved one has just passed away due to natural causes; let alone when a loved one is the victim of a violent crime. The families are usually too emotionally upset and in shock to even have such thoughts cross their minds.

I found the following very interesting web sites, which contain the grief process that survivors experience, especially when death occurs as a result of a violent crime:

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/help-for- ... -loved-one

http://www.thelightbeyond.com/coping_wi ... crime.html

Now, check out pages 5, 6 and 7 of The Witness Statements for a statement of Lizzie’s response the day of the murders:

Thursday Aug. 4, 1892.

During this conversation with Lizzie, I cautioned her about what she might say at the present time.
I said owing to the atrociousness of the crime, perhaps you are not in a mental condition to give as clear
a statement of the facts as you will be tomorrow; and also by that time you may be able to tell more
about the man who wished to hire the store. You may recollect of having heard his name, or of seeing
him, and thereby be enabled to give a description of him, or may recollect of something said about him
by your father; so I say it may be better for you not to submit to an interview until tomorrow, when you
may be better able to recite what you know of the circumstances.” To this she replied “no, I think I can
tell you all I know now, just as well as at any other time.” This conversation took place in Lizzie’s
room, on the second floor, in the presence of Miss Alice Russell, who sat in a chair by the door which
leads to the front hall, by which I entered Lizzie’s room.
Miss Russell was very pale, and much agitated, which she showed by short sharp breathing and
wringing her hands. She spoke not a word.
Lizzie stood by the foot of the bed, and talked in the most calm and collected manner; her whole
bearing was most remarkable under the circumstances. There was not the least indication of agitation,
no sign of sorrow or grief, no lamentation of the heart, no comment on the horror of the crime, and no
expression of a wish that the criminal be caught. All this, and something that, to me, is indescribable,
gave birth to a thought that was most revolting. I thought, at least, she knew more than she wished to
tell.

…

I then went to the Borden barn, where the Marshal gave orders to several officers to search the
barn thoroughly, and took part in the work down stairs. It was at this time I made known my suspicions
of Miss Lizzie. To the Marshal I said “I dont like that girl”. He said “what is that?” I repeated, and further
said “under the circumstances she does not act in a manner to suit me; it is strange, to say the least.”

Officer Philip Harrington

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... sState.pdf

[Aamartin]

I know all about the laying of a body out in the house--- YEARS ago my grandmother did it with her half baked sister... I don't know (this was in the 70's) of she had to get a permit to do it or not...

But leave the bodies in a murder case?

[Allen]

I know all about the laying of a body out in the house--- YEARS ago my grandmother did it with her half baked sister... I don't know (this was in the 70's) of she had to get a permit to do it or not...

But leave the bodies in a murder case?

In a murder case it is still the coroner who examines the bodies and makes any notations about the wounds for evidence. As it was still the coroner in the Borden case who examined the bodies in the homes and made the notations about the wounds. The police had already investigated the scene. It probably seemed more practical to examine the bodies there since the funeral was going to held there as well. And taking the bodies out of the home to transport them I'm not sure where exactly they would have transported them to for the doctor to have done his examination elsewhere.

[Aamartin]

I know all about the laying of a body out in the house--- YEARS ago my grandmother did it with her half baked sister... I don't know (this was in the 70's) of she had to get a permit to do it or not...

But leave the bodies in a murder case?

In a murder case it is still the coroner who examines the bodies and makes any notations about the wounds for evidence. As it was still the coroner in the Borden case who examined the bodies in the homes and made the notations about the wounds. The police had already investigated the scene. It probably seemed more practical to examine the bodies there since the funeral was going to held there as well. And taking the bodies out of the home to transport them I'm not sure where exactly they would have transported them to for the doctor to have done his examination elsewhere.

A hospital? It's probably just that I can't wrap my mind around this. I have had a lot of deaths in my family and couldn't have dealt with this personally-- so I am projecting

[Allen]

All of that was common practice back then. Nobody involved questioned it. Death was not as taboo a subject back then as it is today. Funerals were held in the home, and the bodies were laid out there sometime for days. The mourning custom was still being observed and the family wore nothing but black for a customary amount of time to show their respects to the dead. Postmortem photography was still popular. The family would sometimes even pose with the bodies to give the appearance of a family photo. I've seen photo's that had children all posed together in a family photo. One of them was deceased. During it's height post mortem photographs were more common than any other type of photograph. The hair from the deceased was often used to make jewelry to wear as a keepsake. Or woven into wreaths and other such items. Death was handled much differently then than now. If we did any of those things now we'd be considered crazy.

[NancyDrew]

No one answered my question about Emma....does anyone have any thoughts as to why Lizzie didn't mention her when she made the comment about going to the cemetery alone?

In my family, (Italian) death was a big, big deal. My grandmother had 14 brothers and sisters. Many of them died as children, and she told me lots of stories about the funerals being at the house. When her younger brother died, she had to sleep in the living room (with the body) because out of town family were sleeping in her bedroom. I remember her telling me she got up in the middle of the night and went to look at the coffin (a small white one; her dead brother dressed in a white suit) and there was blood coming out of his nose. She went and got a towel and wiped it up. Very matter of fact. When a child or husband died, the surviving parent or spouse wore black for the rest of their lives. I have many memories of great aunts of mine who spent their entire lives in mourning. They'd go to church every single day, light a candle for the deceased,and pray for their soul to be moved from purgatory to Heaven.

I had a French teacher in high school who lived in Paris during the German occupation. She told of funerals in which the deceased would be laid out in their bed...wearing their sleeping clothes. It would look like they were taking a nap. Guests would file in one by one, first pausing to take a shot of some sort of liquor (it was believed this was protect the viewer from any germs or evil vapors near the body.)

Now...death is treated SO differently. My cousin just died---she was my best friend--48 years old. My aunt didn't have a funeral, wake, mass, NOTHING. She was cremated so their was no viewing. She didn't even put an obituary in the newspaper until 2 weeks afterward, and only because family members pressured her. Very weird.

As far as the "death pictures" some folks still do this. I have a friend whose family owns a funeral home and lots of folks take pictures of their dead relative in the casket. I don't understand this...what do you do with a photograph like this----put it in a cheery frame?

Okay...one more story. My best friend was born in Hungary. Her mother died this past May. When she got the call, her mother had already passed and her body was laying in an ER bay at a local hospital. So my friend raced there to see her mother's body and talk to the doctors about what had happened. Then...incredibly..she took out her cell phone, made up her mother's face with cosmetics (lipstick, eye shadow, etc.) and snapped a bunch of pictures. I thought it was the weirdest thing I had ever seen, but, knowing she came from a different culture, I figured maybe it was something that was traditionally done in her country.

Death scares us. And nowadays, if someone dies at 70, people say "oh--too soon!" Just 40 years ago, living until 70 was considered a good long life. I'm reminded of an AARP commerical running on tv that has a woman who says "I'm in a my 60's...I have a good long life ahead of me." It always strikes me as strange...

Anyways...sorry for the random thoughts and tidbits. An interesting subject...even if we veered off a bit.

[PossumPie]

Nancy Drew,
My thought is that Lizzie believed that she would have to go to the cemetery that afternoon to make arrangements for a mortician to come to the house. I don't think that she meant on the day of the funeral. She knew Emma was still out of town, and she KNEW her step-mother was laying dead upstairs.

[Franz]

...
I can see how you interpreted the lack of real and sincere respect of Lizzie to her stepmother, but that is just your opinion, which I respect you for. However, it is also my opinion that Lizzie’s action at that particular moment in time, indicates, to me, that she knew Abby was already dead. I hope you can appreciate my opinion, as I appreciate yours. You see, Franz, we are both forming our opinions without proof or sufficient evidence.

Certainly, twinsrwe, I appreciate a lot your post (What you pointed out never passed in my mind before, to be honest with you). And when I say " I don't think your conclusion is the unique possibility", I am saying that your opinion, even though not the unique possibility, is very valid one.

What was the role and position of Abby in the family? Was it secondary, negligible, paltry? Could she always make decisions that she had right to make? I would not be surprised if the members of the forum gave me a possitive answer to my first question, and a negative answer to the second.

The discussion is hot here. So many posts that I have some difficulty to follow...

[Allen]

I don't think that Abby's role in the family was secondary when it came to making the decisions. There are several reasons I believe this, but I will list the ones I think show she did make decisions for the family. It was Abby who gave Bridget her list of chores for the day. It was Abby who instructed Bridget to make the meals. It was Abby who did much of the shopping, along with Bridget, for the household. Abby and Andrew kept their belongings in a safe and locked drawer in their room. This for me insinuated they believed that their belongings were very valuable. Maybe more valuable than the rest of the family. The girls had no safe. Andrew bought Abby's family a half house as a gift of his own free will. He didn't purchase property for the daughters until they raised a stink about it. Also Abby actually protested to her family that her allowance was spent on things for the household while the daughters spent their allowance on themselves and didn't contribute. Lizzie and Emma didn't seem to make decisions about much of anything or contribute much to the household except hostility. I think Abby's role was only secondary to Andrew who was the man of the house.

[Aamartin]

I don't think that Abby's role in the family was secondary when it came to making the decisions. There are several reasons I believe this, but I will list the ones I think show she did make decisions for the family. It was Abby who gave Bridget her list of chores for the day. It was Abby who instructed Bridget to make the meals. It was Abby who did much of the shopping, along with Bridget, for the household. Abby and Andrew kept their belongings in a safe and locked drawer in their room. This for me insinuated they believed that their belongings were very valuable. Maybe more valuable than the rest of the family. The girls had no safe. Andrew bought Abby's family a half house as a gift of his own free will. He didn't purchase property for the daughters until they raised a stink about it. Also Abby actually protested to her family that her allowance was spent on things for the household while the daughters spent their allowance on themselves and didn't contribute. Lizzie and Emma didn't seem to make decisions about much of anything or contribute much to the household except hostility. I think Abby's role was only secondary to Andrew who was the man of the house.

I agree-- and IF the conversation in the sitting room the night before the killings was indeed about some business deal Andrew didn't want the girls to know, Abby WAS there for some of it. In his inquest testimony he states that he, Abby and Andrew were visiting in the sitting room when Lizzie came in. He states that Abby retired and that he and Andrew visited about 30 minutes more before retiring themselves. So he did have time to talk business without Abby-- but he had just about as much time to talk business with her present.

[Franz]

I don't think that Abby's role in the family was secondary when it came to making the decisions. There are several reasons I believe this, but I will list the ones I think show she did make decisions for the family. It was Abby who gave Bridget her list of chores for the day. It was Abby who instructed Bridget to make the meals. It was Abby who did much of the shopping, along with Bridget, for the household. Abby and Andrew kept their belongings in a safe and locked drawer in their room. This for me insinuated they believed that their belongings were very valuable. Maybe more valuable than the rest of the family. The girls had no safe. Andrew bought Abby's family a half house as a gift of his own free will. He didn't purchase property for the daughters until they raised a stink about it. Also Abby actually protested to her family that her allowance was spent on things for the household while the daughters spent their allowance on themselves and didn't contribute. Lizzie and Emma didn't seem to make decisions about much of anything or contribute much to the household except hostility. I think Abby's role was only secondary to Andrew who was the man of the house.

Allen, all you stated here are facts. But I think they all concern the material things. I think that Lizzie could believe (with reason or wrongly) that she had a more tight relationship with her father than Abby did, who was only his second wife. The only jewelry Andrew wore always was that ring Lizzie gave him, right? At the very first moment, Lizzie could have thought: father was dead, being his most beloved daughter, I must arrange father's funeral service, without room in mind for Abby's role in this affair.

In a word, my point is: Lizzie's this reaction could, but more probably could not, indicate that she had known that Abby was lying dead on the floor in the guest room.

[Franz]

I agree-- and IF the conversation in the sitting room the night before the killings was indeed about some business deal Andrew didn't want the girls to know, Abby WAS there for some of it. In his inquest testimony he states that he, Abby and Andrew were visiting in the sitting room when Lizzie came in. He states that Abby retired and that he and Andrew visited about 30 minutes more before retiring themselves. So he did have time to talk business without Abby-- but he had just about as much time to talk business with her present.

Aamartin, about the content of that conversation, we could make nothing else than speculations. In any way, IF Andrew and Morse really had something to discuss concerning business in disadvantage for Lizzie (and Emma), I hardly believe that these two old men chose a moment when they were all most tired after a whole day's activities and were so imprudent by letting Lizzie hear something so important. So in my opinion, in that conversation, there should not be nothing that could make lizzie make a murder decision. It's just highly, highly, improbable for me,

[PossumPie]

I don't think that Abby's role in the family was secondary when it came to making the decisions. There are several reasons I believe this, but I will list the ones I think show she did make decisions for the family. It was Abby who gave Bridget her list of chores for the day. It was Abby who instructed Bridget to make the meals. It was Abby who did much of the shopping, along with Bridget, for the household. Abby and Andrew kept their belongings in a safe and locked drawer in their room. This for me insinuated they believed that their belongings were very valuable. Maybe more valuable than the rest of the family. The girls had no safe. Andrew bought Abby's family a half house as a gift of his own free will. He didn't purchase property for the daughters until they raised a stink about it. Also Abby actually protested to her family that her allowance was spent on things for the household while the daughters spent their allowance on themselves and didn't contribute. Lizzie and Emma didn't seem to make decisions about much of anything or contribute much to the household except hostility. I think Abby's role was only secondary to Andrew who was the man of the house.

Allen, all you stated here are facts. But I think they all concern the material things. I think that Lizzie could believe (with reason or wrongly) that she had a more tight relationship with her father than Abby did, who was only his second wife. The only jewelry Andrew wore always was that ring Lizzie gave him, right? At the very first moment, Lizzie could have thought: father was dead, being his most beloved daughter, I must arrange father's funeral service, without room in mind for Abby's role in this affair.

In a word, my point is: Lizzie's this reaction could, but more probably could not, indicate that she had known that Abby was lying dead on the floor in the guest room.

Franz, no matter what else you believe about the killings, it is quite obvious that Lizzie KNEW her step-mother was upstairs dead. Lizzie found her father dead, YELLED so loudly up to the 3rd floor that Bridget heard and came running down, Lizzie said she was sure that she heard Mrs. Borden come in earlier. Mrs. Borden didn't come down to investigate what all of the noise was, WHY? The police were called, the doctor arrived, neighbors were there, and what...Mrs. Borden ignored all of that noise and just stayed upstairs???? Lizzie kept insisting that she had heard Mrs. Borden come in, and wanted someone to go upstairs b/c she was sure that Mrs. Borden was dead. Lizzie even said it I'm afraid she is upstairs dead. Your theory says Mrs. Borden NEVER went out, but was killed and the note retreived. Who did Lizzie hear come in then? Lizzie was sure she heard Mrs. Borden come in. Either 1. she was lying or 2. She heard someone come in...but who? No one could get in without Lizzie or Bridget unlocking the door from the inside.

By the way, I got thinking about your note delivery theory. If the note arrived, and the guy followed Mrs. Borden upstairs and killed her, How did Lizzie even discover there was a note. Mrs. Borden didn't have enough time to find Lizzie, and tell her that she had a note. It would have happened too quickly. Bridget said no one came to the door at all except Mr. Borden.?

[Allen]

I don't think that Abby's role in the family was secondary when it came to making the decisions. There are several reasons I believe this, but I will list the ones I think show she did make decisions for the family. It was Abby who gave Bridget her list of chores for the day. It was Abby who instructed Bridget to make the meals. It was Abby who did much of the shopping, along with Bridget, for the household. Abby and Andrew kept their belongings in a safe and locked drawer in their room. This for me insinuated they believed that their belongings were very valuable. Maybe more valuable than the rest of the family. The girls had no safe. Andrew bought Abby's family a half house as a gift of his own free will. He didn't purchase property for the daughters until they raised a stink about it. Also Abby actually protested to her family that her allowance was spent on things for the household while the daughters spent their allowance on themselves and didn't contribute. Lizzie and Emma didn't seem to make decisions about much of anything or contribute much to the household except hostility. I think Abby's role was only secondary to Andrew who was the man of the house.

Allen, all you stated here are facts. But I think they all concern the material things. I think that Lizzie could believe (with reason or wrongly) that she had a more tight relationship with her father than Abby did, who was only his second wife. The only jewelry Andrew wore always was that ring Lizzie gave him, right? At the very first moment, Lizzie could have thought: father was dead, being his most beloved daughter, I must arrange father's funeral service, without room in mind for Abby's role in this affair.

In a word, my point is: Lizzie's this reaction could, but more probably could not, indicate that she had known that Abby was lying dead on the floor in the guest room.

I must disagree with you Franz. I think Lizzie would have been aware that as his wife Abby would have had say in the funeral arrangements. Unless she knew she was dead. It's so interesting that she is already planning the funeral after just finding the body. Not only did she say she would have to go to the cemetery herself, but she also made the statement about wanting undertaker Winward when the time came. Her mind was already on putting the body/bodies in the ground when most people would still be processing the fact that their parents had been brutally murdered. Then the ploy about hearing Abby come in and wanting someone to go and look for her upstairs. So they could find the second body. When could she have heard Abby come in? Before she even went to the barn? Then Abby would have come to speak with Andrew, and Lizzie would have seen her, not have went upstairs to a guest room. Abby may have been his second wife but she was married to Andrew for longer than Lizzie's own mother by about nine years. I do believe, and it's just my opinion, that Lizzie thought she had a better standing in the household than Emma did. Emma admitted herself that the relationship she had with Abby was 'less cordial' than the one between Lizzie and Abby. Emma also forfeited the bigger bedroom to Lizzie. She stayed on with Lizzie long after things had become unbearable for her. The exchange heard by the prison matron Hannah Reagan at the jail for me is also very telling about the dynamics of the relationship between Lizzie and Emma. And it's just another recorded instance of Lizzie using the silent treatment to punish someone. But what I also find interesting is that Lizzie seems to be playing the 'spoiled child' who hasn't gotten her way to Emma's 'coaxing mother'. Lizzie is acting like a child having a temper tantrum. I get the feeling this was her usual routine when someone displeased her. Among other things.

Trial testimony of Mrs. Hannah Reagan pages 1213-1214:

Q. What were you doing when Miss Emma Borden came?
A. I was tidying up the room.

Q. Doing what?
A. Cleaning up the room, helping to tidy up the room.

Q. Were you in the same room with them after Miss Emma Borden came?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now will you go on and describe in your own way what occurred after Miss Emma came, the time that elapsed, and all that was said and done?
A. Miss Emma Borden came to my room about twenty minutes to nine o'clock on the 24th of August, and I let her in and she spoke to her sister Lizzie, and I left the two women talking together and I went into a toilet room about four feet from where Miss Lizzie Borden was lying on a couch, and I heard very loud talk, and I came to my door and it was Miss Lizzie Borden; she was lying on her left side and her sister Emma was talking to her and bending right over her, and Lizzie says, "Emma you have given me away. haven't you?" She says, "No, Lizzie, I have not." "You have," she says, "and I will let you see I will not give in one inch," and she sat right up and put put up her finger, and I stood in the doorway looking a both of them.

Q. Was Miss Borden's tone loud or low?
A. I could not hear what Miss Emma said only "I did not, Lizzie." "I did not give you away, Lizzie." She says, "you have."

Q. Now what was the tone of Miss Lizzie Borden's voice?
A. Well I am speaking kind of loud now and she spoke just as loud as I am talking.

Q. Was it louder or less loud than Miss Emma's voice?
A. Louder, some.

Q. What occurred then?
A. Lizzie Borden lay right down on the couch on her left side and faced out the window and closed her eyes, and Emma got a chair, and she sat right down beside her sister, and that was in the forenoon, I should say then after nine o'clock.

Q. How long did they continue to sit together?
A. They sat there till Mr. Jennings came to my door, somewheres about eleven o'clock, or after eleven o'clock.

Q. During that time that the two sisters sat that way did Miss Lizzie speak to her sister at all?
A. No sir, not anymore that forenoon.

Q. Did she turn her face to her in any way?
A. No, sir, she did not.

[leitskev]

test post

[Franz]

Franz, no matter what else you believe about the killings, it is quite obvious that Lizzie KNEW her step-mother was upstairs dead. Lizzie found her father dead, YELLED so loudly up to the 3rd floor that Bridget heard and came running down, Lizzie said she was sure that she heard Mrs. Borden come in earlier. Mrs. Borden didn't come down to investigate what all of the noise was, WHY? The police were called, the doctor arrived, neighbors were there, and what...Mrs. Borden ignored all of that noise and just stayed upstairs???? Lizzie kept insisting that she had heard Mrs. Borden come in, and wanted someone to go upstairs b/c she was sure that Mrs. Borden was dead. Lizzie even said it I'm afraid she is upstairs dead. Your theory says Mrs. Borden NEVER went out, but was killed and the note retreived. Who did Lizzie hear come in then? Lizzie was sure she heard Mrs. Borden come in. Either 1. she was lying or 2. She heard someone come in...but who? No one could get in without Lizzie or Bridget unlocking the door from the inside.

By the way, I got thinking about your note delivery theory. If the note arrived, and the guy followed Mrs. Borden upstairs and killed her, How did Lizzie even discover there was a note. Mrs. Borden didn't have enough time to find Lizzie, and tell her that she had a note. It would have happened too quickly. Bridget said no one came to the door at all except Mr. Borden.?

1. For me it is not obvious that Lizzie knew Abby lying dead on the second floor. I agree that Lizzie, by saying so, told a lie (Abby being dead, Lizzie could not hear her come back, this is obvious), but I don't thnk that your and others' interpretation is the unique one. As I said before, I will post something when I fell more ready for the issue.

2. My theory about the note is not at all that the "guy" (the messenger) followed Mrs. Borden and killed her. In my theory, the real killer entered the house by the front door thanks to the messenger's collaboration, the messenger and the killer were two different persons. Bridget could not know nothing if she was in the barn when all this occured. If you want to discuss with me about my theory, please re-read it and don't put under my name what I didn't say, thanks.

[Franz]

I agree-- and IF the conversation in the sitting room the night before the killings was indeed about some business deal Andrew didn't want the girls to know, Abby WAS there for some of it. In his inquest testimony he states that he, Abby and Andrew were visiting in the sitting room when Lizzie came in. He states that Abby retired and that he and Andrew visited about 30 minutes more before retiring themselves. So he did have time to talk business without Abby-- but he had just about as much time to talk business with her present.

Aamartin, about the content of that conversation, we could make nothing else than speculations. In any way, IF Andrew and Morse really had something to discuss concerning business in disadvantage for Lizzie (and Emma), I hardly believe that these two old men chose a moment when they were all most tired after a whole day's activities and were so imprudent by letting Lizzie hear something so important. So in my opinion, in that conversation, there should not be nothing that could make lizzie make a murder decision. It's just highly, highly, improbable for me,

Aamartin, I would like to repeat what I said in another way:

1. Would Mr. Borden and Morse, two old men, have decided to have a conversation so important concerning business in disadvantage to Lizzie (and Emma) so late in the evening, being tired after a whole day's activities? My answer: It's certainly possible, but in my opinion, unlikely.

2. Would Mr. Borden and Morse have continued to discuss the business concerning Lizzie (for her disadvantage), after hearing her come back? My answer: It is still possible, but highly unlikely in my opinion.

3. Would Mr. Borden and Morse, knowing perfectly that Lizzie was in her room and her window being most probably open, have continued to make such a conversation so loudly that Lizzie could hear what they said in the second floor, in her room? My answer: It is just highly, highly, highly, unlikely for me.

Lizzie could be guilty; Lizzie could be innocent. I have my opinion, I don't know the truth. But I just don't think that the content of two men's conversation had anything to do with the double murder which occured the next day morning.

[Aamartin]

Franz, no matter what else you believe about the killings, it is quite obvious that Lizzie KNEW her step-mother was upstairs dead. Lizzie found her father dead, YELLED so loudly up to the 3rd floor that Bridget heard and came running down, Lizzie said she was sure that she heard Mrs. Borden come in earlier. Mrs. Borden didn't come down to investigate what all of the noise was, WHY? The police were called, the doctor arrived, neighbors were there, and what...Mrs. Borden ignored all of that noise and just stayed upstairs???? Lizzie kept insisting that she had heard Mrs. Borden come in, and wanted someone to go upstairs b/c she was sure that Mrs. Borden was dead. Lizzie even said it I'm afraid she is upstairs dead. Your theory says Mrs. Borden NEVER went out, but was killed and the note retreived. Who did Lizzie hear come in then? Lizzie was sure she heard Mrs. Borden come in. Either 1. she was lying or 2. She heard someone come in...but who? No one could get in without Lizzie or Bridget unlocking the door from the inside.

By the way, I got thinking about your note delivery theory. If the note arrived, and the guy followed Mrs. Borden upstairs and killed her, How did Lizzie even discover there was a note. Mrs. Borden didn't have enough time to find Lizzie, and tell her that she had a note. It would have happened too quickly. Bridget said no one came to the door at all except Mr. Borden.?

1. For me it is not obvious that Lizzie knew Abby lying dead on the second floor. I agree that Lizzie, by saying so, told a lie (Abby being dead, Lizzie could not hear her come back, this is obvious), but I don't thnk that your and others' interpretation is the unique one. As I said before, I will post something when I fell more ready for the issue.

2. My theory about the note is not at all that the "guy" (the messenger) followed Mrs. Borden and killed her. In my theory, the real killer entered the house by the front door thanks to the messenger's collaboration, the messenger and the killer were two different persons. Bridget could not know nothing if she was in the barn when all this occured. If you want to discuss with me about my theory, please re-read it and don't put under my name what I didn't say, thanks.

Franz-- Look at Bridget's testimony AND Lizzie's as to where they said they were that morning--- then, see if there was a time for someone to ring the bell, where neither of them heard it. The killer/person who delivered the note HAD to let someone know he was at the front door in order to get in

[PossumPie]

Franz, I've read your theory many times. I still say that for someone to Ring the bell, be answered by Mrs. Borden, have a conversation on the front walk, have a person sneak PAST Mrs. Borden in broad daylight in a crime-ridden neighborhood and run up the stairs, hide, then Mrs. Borden go up the stairs and be killed has two glaring problems. As Aamartin says, there was not a time when this could happen when Bridget or Lizzie weren't around. Bridget was washing windows, inside and out. Out front of the house also. Lizzie was in her room and downstairs, she would have seen/heard someone sneaking in. THEN, when did Mrs. Borden have a chance to tell Lizzie that she got a note? Your theory could work ONLY if a dozen incredible coincidences all happened together. Your plan could work only if no one saw them on the street, no one saw the person sneak in the house, no one in the house saw or heard a man run up the stairs, all of which are HIGHLY improbable. Read the testimony of the huge number of witnesses who were looking out their windows, walking the street, out in their yards, SOMEONE SAW:
Mr. Borden leave,
Mr. Borden return,
Bridget run to the doctors,
Bridget return from the doctors.
Morse leave in the morning,
Morse Return.
EVERYTHING that occurred outside of that house was observed by some neighbor that day. BUT no one saw Mrs. Borden talking to someone on the sidewalk, OR a sinister man sneaking behind her and entering the house, they would have called the police immediately. That street seemed full of nosy neighbors.

[Franz]

PossumPie, if you have read my theory many times, I wonder why you said that in my theory the guy (the messenger) followd Mrs. Borden and then killed her...