All About Abby
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Re: All About Abby
i was just studying the blood splatter map. this is very helpful.
so what i'm seeing is the majority of the blood was low:
- on the bed rail (and i'm now thinking it's undoubtedly the part of the rail opposite or near the dresser and abby's head)
- on the feet of the chair near her head
- on the front of the dresser
the next largest amount was on the dresser mirror and marble top.
so those are the two areas and heights where most of this occurred. nearer the dresser than the bed initially, then on the floor.
so what i'm seeing is the majority of the blood was low:
- on the bed rail (and i'm now thinking it's undoubtedly the part of the rail opposite or near the dresser and abby's head)
- on the feet of the chair near her head
- on the front of the dresser
the next largest amount was on the dresser mirror and marble top.
so those are the two areas and heights where most of this occurred. nearer the dresser than the bed initially, then on the floor.
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Re: All About Abby
This is just awful. I've already got debbie to change it once. Here, bed rails mean those Victorian iron and porcelain bed heads and feet. I wondered why he called them rails when it was all wood!
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Re: All About Abby
Throwing in a medical perspective here. Any of the wounds in Abby's head that penetrated the skull would ultimately have been fatal. While not impossible, it is unlikely that after the first blow to break the cranium Abby would have done much of anything. I've always believed that she partially turned to look over her right shoulder, received the infamous 'flap of skin wound" which would have hurt like the dickens but not have killed her. The next blow, no matter which it was, would have probably dropped her like a sack of potatoes. The key to this observation is that there were contusions and bruises on her nose/forehead. ANYONE who is conscious and falling forward will brace themselves so as not to hit their face. An unconscious person falling will hit their face without protecting it.
If one of the first wounds were one of the occipital wounds, chances are she would have been blinded and not able to see where she was going. If it were the ones over her right temple, probable immediate unconsciousness. Understand that brain injury by hatchet would have disrupted the motor centers (no crawling). There were NO defensive wounds like a slice across a hand or forearm, and no hollering (that anyone heard). Nothing on top of the dresser was disturbed, a fighting person may try to grab an object to fight back.
My ultimate belief is that Abby was standing about where she fell, turned to the right to face her attacker, was struck on the right side of her face, and turned quickly back forward to escape. The second wound penetrated her skull, and as she fell, was hit on the neck twice. The rest were administered by a person standing straddling Abby, and leaning over at the waist. The person was right handed, and hit her 9 or 10 times once she was on the floor.
If one of the first wounds were one of the occipital wounds, chances are she would have been blinded and not able to see where she was going. If it were the ones over her right temple, probable immediate unconsciousness. Understand that brain injury by hatchet would have disrupted the motor centers (no crawling). There were NO defensive wounds like a slice across a hand or forearm, and no hollering (that anyone heard). Nothing on top of the dresser was disturbed, a fighting person may try to grab an object to fight back.
My ultimate belief is that Abby was standing about where she fell, turned to the right to face her attacker, was struck on the right side of her face, and turned quickly back forward to escape. The second wound penetrated her skull, and as she fell, was hit on the neck twice. The rest were administered by a person standing straddling Abby, and leaning over at the waist. The person was right handed, and hit her 9 or 10 times once she was on the floor.
Last edited by PossumPie on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All About Abby
With the blood spatter that is there, Possum, if I understand you right, most of the blood spray would have come from the first few blows. She would then have been dead, and no more spraying. Just the killer destroying her skull.
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Re: All About Abby
All fixed...Curryong wrote:This is just awful. I've already got debbie to change it once. Here, bed rails mean those Victorian iron and porcelain bed heads and feet. I wondered why he called them rails when it was all wood!
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Re: All About Abby
First wound is generally without blood splatter blood hasn't had time to pool in the woundbed...subsequent ones splatter b/c the brain/scalp has bleed enough to splatter the blood like a wet sponge NOT b/c the heart has stopped.Curryong wrote:With the blood spatter that is there, Possum, if I understand you right, most of the blood spray would have come from the first few blows. She would then have been dead, and no more spraying. Just the killer destroying her skull.
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Re: All About Abby
Than you debbie. I feel awful. But I'll partially put the blame on Dr Dolan !
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Re: All About Abby
Poor Abby. When you look at that diagram, it's almost as if she was corralled in that small squashed corner, and then finished off like a wounded animal. I just hope it was quick!
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Re: All About Abby
I agree with Possum on how this happened now that both wounds and splatter and where we can see them. I do think she first stood astride Abby and then knelt astride her, probably to deliver the multiple blows to the right of the head. This would account for both the wound on the top of the head and the bunched up skirt with one side (the one facing the camera) that looks unnaturally flattened.
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Re: All About Abby
that's helpful. it makes sense now that i think about it, but i have no medical background to draw from and wouldn't have thought of it.PossumPie wrote:First wound is generally without blood splatter blood hasn't had time to pool in the woundbed...subsequent ones splatter b/c the brain/scalp has bleed enough to splatter the blood like a wet sponge NOT b/c the heart has stopped.Curryong wrote:With the blood spatter that is there, Possum, if I understand you right, most of the blood spray would have come from the first few blows. She would then have been dead, and no more spraying. Just the killer destroying her skull.
so then, now when i envision what happened, i see about the same thing, although i think she was kneeling. she heard something, turned to her right, saw her killer and received the first blow, the flap wound. maybe it didn't even hurt. the few times i've hurt myself, like accidentally cutting myself with a knife, it doesn't hurt at first. then what with the shock of it, and her dying so quickly afterwards, maybe it was a relatively painless, if terribly brutal, death.
then she instinctively turned away, and quickly received one or two other blows, which splattered on the mirror and dresser top. then she fell face downwards, head turned slightly to the right. then the killer continued on and on, straddling her body from either a standing or bent over position.
so then the majority of the blood would have been on the bottom of lizzie's skirt (or trousers, if by some chance a man), if she wore one. she may have thought to remove her stockings and shoes first, and wore little underneath the waterproof, if she wore that.
she could have made sure the pitcher of water at her washstand, or the one in the guest room, was full ahead of time, for easy clean-up.
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Re: All About Abby
Odd though it may seem, since Abby's was the murder offering the greater leisure for cleanup, I think if Lizzie had stripped down (whether completely or partially) to do her bloody work, it would have been to do in Abby. Her bedroom and closet were close by, and if Abby had turned to see Lizzie au naturel, it probably wouldn't have shocked her. Washup would have been easy and private.
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Re: All About Abby
yes, i think so too. i think it unlikely she stripped down entirely, but perhaps just to her undergarments in the case of abby, with the waterproof covering her.
debbie's map had me wanting to know the dimensions of the guest room. for all the times i've looked at the floor plans and the photos, it's never occurred to me to find out exactly the size of the rooms, or the house. you'd think it'd be easy enough to find that info, especially as the house has been a b&b for a long time and easily measured, but so far no luck.
this is all i can find so far.
debbie's map had me wanting to know the dimensions of the guest room. for all the times i've looked at the floor plans and the photos, it's never occurred to me to find out exactly the size of the rooms, or the house. you'd think it'd be easy enough to find that info, especially as the house has been a b&b for a long time and easily measured, but so far no luck.
this is all i can find so far.
from that i can guess the width of the guest room was about 13 feet, but no idea its length.by Lefty » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:58 am
[…]
92 Second Street is 26 ft. wide and 44 ft. long. The finished floor space for the first and second floor is 2800 sq. ft. It is not a small house, now Maplecroft is certainly bigger but by maybe 500 sq. ft. a good amount but it hardly makes 2800 sq ft. a 'small' house. This doesn't include the attics, basements, or porches of either house.
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Re: All About Abby
It looks to be about 12x14.
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Re: All About Abby
Abby, even if she was bending over the bed could clearly see anyone who opened the door, entered the room, couldn't she? I do think that this graphic puts to bed any thoughts of strange intruders waiting for Abby in the guest room. She seems to have been still messing about with shams or the bedspread which, to me points to an earlier time for the murder, perhaps soon after she went upstairs.
If it was Lizzie, I don't believe her being bare-footed would have raised any alarm bells, but she would have had to have got close enough to Abby to stop any apprehensions. A bit of a conversation, perhaps asking about Uncle John or linen (if she had linen in her arms hiding the hatchet) would have done it. If she were dressed (or undressed) too unconventionally her stepmother might have straightened up and asked questions!
If it was Lizzie, I don't believe her being bare-footed would have raised any alarm bells, but she would have had to have got close enough to Abby to stop any apprehensions. A bit of a conversation, perhaps asking about Uncle John or linen (if she had linen in her arms hiding the hatchet) would have done it. If she were dressed (or undressed) too unconventionally her stepmother might have straightened up and asked questions!
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Re: All About Abby
To have contusions and bruises on her forehead and nose she most likely fell from a standing position. The first wound seems to have been the flap which was made with a hatchet to the side of the face so it had to hurt like h***. This had to be a blitz attack, unforeseen, or Abby would've grabbed an pillow or a chair for protection; there would've been defensive wounds on her arms or hands. I think the murderer got right up to her without arousing suspicion.Catbooks wrote:PossumPie wrote:Curryong wrote: so then, now when i envision what happened, i see about the same thing, although i think she was kneeling. she heard something, turned to her right, saw her killer and received the first blow, the flap wound. maybe it didn't even hurt. the few times i've hurt myself, like accidentally cutting myself with a knife, it doesn't hurt at first. then what with the shock of it, and her dying so quickly afterwards, maybe it was a relatively painless, if terribly brutal, death.
then she instinctively turned away, and quickly received one or two other blows, which splattered on the mirror and dresser top. then she fell face downwards, head turned slightly to the right. then the killer continued on and on, straddling her body from either a standing or bent over position.
so then the majority of the blood would have been on the bottom of lizzie's skirt (or trousers, if by some chance a man), if she wore one. she may have thought to remove her stockings and shoes first, and wore little underneath the waterproof, if she wore that.
she could have made sure the pitcher of water at her washstand, or the one in the guest room, was full ahead of time, for easy clean-up.
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Re: All About Abby
I didn't write that quote!
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Re: All About Abby
i wrote it. no doubt debbie ran into the same problem i did with the forum software not allowing more than 3 quotes per post, and then having a time of it sorting through the code to figure out what to delete.
if one fell like the proverbial log, face-down onto the floor with dead weight, even from a kneeling position there would be sure to be contusions and bruises.
if one fell like the proverbial log, face-down onto the floor with dead weight, even from a kneeling position there would be sure to be contusions and bruises.
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Re: All About Abby
if lizzie were upstairs, bringing up laundry and going into her room, going into the closet, doing usual things, abby wouldn't have thought a thing of it, even if lizzie came into the room while abby was finishing up her chores. she may not have even bothered to glance over at her.
someone unknown to her would have had to watch her from around the doorway until she was facing away from the door, then come in silently and creep up behind her, unseen and unheard.
someone unknown to her would have had to watch her from around the doorway until she was facing away from the door, then come in silently and creep up behind her, unseen and unheard.
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Re: All About Abby
Yes, about the facial bruising, I noticed on earlier threads that people were speculating that maybe Abby was attacked in a way that left bruising. However, as Possum pointed out if you fall without putting your arms out you would automatically bruise forehead, cheeks etc.
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Re: All About Abby
Right. If you have a hatchet, and are going to kill someone, you are not going to pummel them around the nose and cheek first, then attack with a weapon. Especially if you don't want anyone to hear what's going on. Also, if it happened that way, there would be more chance of screaming, and more disarray of the dressing table b/c of a struggle. To me, the only logical explanation is a turn of the head, a whack on the cheek that was meant to kill but missed, then a whack to the back or side of the head that caused immediate unconsciousness. Abby fell and no hands protected her face which hit hard enough to cause peri-mortem contusions (Bruising around the moment of death)Curryong wrote:Yes, about the facial bruising, I noticed on earlier threads that people were speculating that maybe Abby was attacked in a way that left bruising. However, as Possum pointed out if you fall without putting your arms out you would automatically bruise forehead, cheeks etc.
We also should differentiate that some blood was spatter caused by the hatchet blade striking already bloody tissue, causing "splashing" while other blood spatter was 'cast off' spatter- slinging off of a bloody blade when it was raised to swing again. This would have been higher on the walls/furniture because of it's arc-like path through the air.
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Re: All About Abby
The blood splatter pattern in the guest room doesn't appear to have been ceiling-high for example, though. The highest blood spotting seems to have been on the dressing mirror. (Unless Dr Dolan missed it!) This would be logical I suppose, as Abby was presumably on the floor throughout most of the attack.
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Re: All About Abby
Yes, and the killer was either bending over or sitting astride Abby, or both, but she was standing when the attack on Andrew took place. What still confuses me is there doesn't appear to be splatter on Abby's blouse which was at ground zero or on the bedspread which is on the side where the most severe damage was done. Given that we can see the splatter on the dark rug, wouldn't it also be visible on the white or light surfaces.
Sorry about the quote, Curryong, didn't see it until this morning. I'm leaving it as is since Catbooks did such a nice job of explaining for me....:-)
Sorry about the quote, Curryong, didn't see it until this morning. I'm leaving it as is since Catbooks did such a nice job of explaining for me....:-)
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Re: All About Abby
true, there's no cast-off from the weapon higher/farther than the mirror, unless it's that one spot near the window.
they did say (somewhere) there was blood on the back of abby's blouse, but we can't see it because of the angle of the side shots, and her back isn't visible in the long shot. i also read there was blood on the side of the bedspread. the frhs has it, and that blood is still visible. doesn't sound like there was a lot though. maybe the spread wasn't big enough to come down very much on the sides.
i'm still not exactly sure what-all of the code to delete on a 4-quoter :)
another thought. her hands and arms were above her head when she was found. she must have raised them somehow as she was falling, so had some degree of consciousness as she was falling, or right before.
they did say (somewhere) there was blood on the back of abby's blouse, but we can't see it because of the angle of the side shots, and her back isn't visible in the long shot. i also read there was blood on the side of the bedspread. the frhs has it, and that blood is still visible. doesn't sound like there was a lot though. maybe the spread wasn't big enough to come down very much on the sides.
i'm still not exactly sure what-all of the code to delete on a 4-quoter :)
another thought. her hands and arms were above her head when she was found. she must have raised them somehow as she was falling, so had some degree of consciousness as she was falling, or right before.
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Re: All About Abby
Yes, though Dr Bowen, (who, according to some witnesses, came downstairs considerably upset, sentimental old thing) wasn't quite clear in his testimony as to whether he had replaced her hand back the way he'd found it after 'taking her temperature', and making sure no life remained. Nowadays, no-one except a police surgeon would be allowed to touch a clearly dead person until the police arrived. Then, there were the others turning her/touching her too. What about Dr Bowen inviting a neighbour, mr Pettee, in for a look at the two bodies. Very unprofessional, to say the least!
I've always been a bit perplexed about blood on Abby's back, too. Dr Dolan clearly reported it and, with the blow between the shoulder blades we know she received there should be some. The photographer only took photographs from the two angles and her blouse top seems to be quite pristine in those.
I've always been a bit perplexed about blood on Abby's back, too. Dr Dolan clearly reported it and, with the blow between the shoulder blades we know she received there should be some. The photographer only took photographs from the two angles and her blouse top seems to be quite pristine in those.
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Re: All About Abby
but doherty states her arms and hands were around and above her head when he found her. bowen only took her pulse, on one hand. now the doherty/bowen testimony is jumbling a bit in my head, but i thought it was doherty who had the first good look at abby's body, who pronounced to dr bowen that abby was dead.
this involves both murders, although perhaps more andrew's, so i'll post it in both threads.
this involves both murders, although perhaps more andrew's, so i'll post it in both threads.
wish we knew when dedrick arrived back at the borden's and came in. although i doubt lizzie would have left a basin on the wash stand with bloody water in it, seeing as she had so much time between murders.October 1, 1892, Harrington, partial, Witness Statements, p.22:
Dr. Albert C. Dedrick. “I was going on a call to Whipple street, when I saw Dr. Dolan drive along Second street like mad, and stop at Mr. Borden’s. When I returned, there was a large crowd there, and I went in. Mr. Borden’s left hand, which rested on his hip, was smeared with blood. I called Dr. Bowen’s attention to it.
I went up stairs, and as I entered, I noticed the basin which was on the wash stand, contained water stained with blood. I called Dr. Bowen’s attention to this, and he said perhaps some of the Doctors washed their hands there. Afterwards I saw Dr. Dolan wash his hands there. I remember this distinctly, for I had put my hands in Mrs. Borden’s wounds, and when I had washed my hands, I took the towel from Dr. Dolan, who had just finished drying his.
I think Mrs. Borden was dead first, for when I took hold of her arm, it was cold, clammy, and very stiff. When I took hold of Mr. Borden’s, to look at the blood on his hand, it bent very easily.
I do not want to get into the case, but I tell you just as I saw and found things.”
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Re: All About Abby
Smeared with blood is different than splattered. I'm trying to come up with a scenario where Andrew's hand gets smeared with blood...aside from the shoddy handling of the body - moving, covering and what not.
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Re: All About Abby
My guess is it's a smear caused by blood transference from one of the medical 'professionals' or police on the scene. When we consider that none of the doctors donned as much as a pair of surgical gloves, and at least two of them took it upon themselves to actually wash up, leaving bloody water at a crime scene, goodness knows what else went on. Aprons were only put on for the autopsy.
It probably wasn't done intentionally. Perhaps one of the police, in examining the rolled-up Prince Albert or the pillow, got a little splat of blood on his uniform, and when he leaned over the body it smeared onto Andrew's hand. There were no defensive wounds on Andrew's hands, after all.
It probably wasn't done intentionally. Perhaps one of the police, in examining the rolled-up Prince Albert or the pillow, got a little splat of blood on his uniform, and when he leaned over the body it smeared onto Andrew's hand. There were no defensive wounds on Andrew's hands, after all.
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Re: All About Abby
In the June 2004 thread '92 and a half 2nd Street' Kat posted an attachment which shows the proportions of the rooms in the Borden home. The guest room was 14' 4" by 15' 6". Lizzie's bedroom, by the way, was 14' 5" in width by 13' 5 and a half inches in depth.
Unfortunately for me I can't provide the attachment as my computer seems to have gone on strike for some reason when I tried.
Unfortunately for me I can't provide the attachment as my computer seems to have gone on strike for some reason when I tried.
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Re: All About Abby
I've thought a lot about Abby - her potential inheritance of most of Andrew's estate and her relationship with him. Truth is she spent 27 years by her husband's side, scrimping and saving, while he earned and invested. Abby appears to have been a conservative woman with a nondescript personality, a work ethic and sense of frugality - a lot like Andrew. Both she and the girls did housework, much more than many women of that era with live-in help. She appears to be wearing worn-out boots that possibly belonged to Andrew or else she had remarkably big feet. No matter which, her footwear was well-worn. Sarah was not Andrew's wife when most of his fortune was amassed. If Emma and Lizzie saw themselves as entitled, they were wrong. I think Andrew made an excellent choice when he chose Abby for his wife...maybe not such a good choice when he chose her for the girls' step-mother.
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Re: All About Abby
Yes debbie, I think you are quite right. Abby was very undemanding and apparently never spoke badly of the 'girls', to neighbours or family friends. If Andrew had taken Abby on a trip to Europe it would have been a just reward. Unfortunately, with the young teenage Emma being so stubborn, cold and unaccepting as she apparently was, Abby didn't have a chance from the start.
- MysteryReader
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Re: All About Abby
Wow! So much to read through- I'll admit, I scanned page 2 and 3's posts.
I read the testimony of Dr. Dolon and had a question or two- he mentioned he had a thermometer but didn't use it- why not!? Could it have effected the time of her death?
Also, he says he collected samples of that day's milk and the day before to send off for testing but why not take samples of the rest of the food? Someone mentioned poison so it would make sense for the doctor to have taken samples of everything they'd eaten.
One last thing I noticed (it's proven a lot in today's time) not many people look up- did anyone notice whether any of the doctors or police officers looked at the ceiling in either the room with Abby or the one with Andrew for cast-offs?
I read the testimony of Dr. Dolon and had a question or two- he mentioned he had a thermometer but didn't use it- why not!? Could it have effected the time of her death?
Also, he says he collected samples of that day's milk and the day before to send off for testing but why not take samples of the rest of the food? Someone mentioned poison so it would make sense for the doctor to have taken samples of everything they'd eaten.
One last thing I noticed (it's proven a lot in today's time) not many people look up- did anyone notice whether any of the doctors or police officers looked at the ceiling in either the room with Abby or the one with Andrew for cast-offs?
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Re: All About Abby
Good questions, MysteryReader, and some of them don't have answers! Dr Dolan was in charge, medically speaking and seems to have taken notes of the blood splatter in both rooms, but if any got on the ceilings he didn't seem to mention it, or if he did I missed it!
A lot of the police and doctors' actions would just horrify crime investigators and health professionals today, without a doubt. They tested stomach contents but found no poison. Heaven knows what happened to the soup for the midday meal or the ever-present mutton. Maybe Uncle John gobbled it up for his supper!
Perhaps they were more worried about the milk being contaminated. Ive never read that they tested any food. As for Dr Dolan and his thermometer, I don't know why he didn't use it, except I know that doctors in those days seem to have relied a lot (too much?) on touch and sight.
A lot of the police and doctors' actions would just horrify crime investigators and health professionals today, without a doubt. They tested stomach contents but found no poison. Heaven knows what happened to the soup for the midday meal or the ever-present mutton. Maybe Uncle John gobbled it up for his supper!
Perhaps they were more worried about the milk being contaminated. Ive never read that they tested any food. As for Dr Dolan and his thermometer, I don't know why he didn't use it, except I know that doctors in those days seem to have relied a lot (too much?) on touch and sight.
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Re: All About Abby
Thanks, Curryong!
I have noticed others saying Abby was at least 200 pounds but short. I know different body sizes and conditions of the area would be taken into account when determining when someone died but is it possible that perhaps Andrew died first? I know it's a reach considering the fact that Abby could have come down and discovered what was going on... just something I thought of.
I have noticed others saying Abby was at least 200 pounds but short. I know different body sizes and conditions of the area would be taken into account when determining when someone died but is it possible that perhaps Andrew died first? I know it's a reach considering the fact that Abby could have come down and discovered what was going on... just something I thought of.
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Re: All About Abby
It's true that Abby was short and stout. It's hard to know what the temperature of the guest room was, however. It was a very warm day but the shutters were closed against the sun on all the windows so I don't think it would have been stuffy, though you never know. The windows faced north, I think.
I'm not a medical professional but I believe both Dr Dolan and Dr Bowen came to their conclusions that Andrew and Abby were murdered about an hour and a half apart because of the state of the blood at the scene. Andrew's was still quite liquid while Abby's had solidified to some degree. When the autopsy was done Abby's breakfast was still only partly digested, suggesting a death round about two hours after eating. John Morse gave testimony that he, Abby and Andrew had all participated in breakfast.
Don't know if Andrew ate anything downtown, probably not, but whatever he had had for breakfast had been digested. I don't know whether rigour mortis had started settling in with Abby or not but it certainly hadn't with Andrew. Both doctors were (obviously) used to the sight of blood flow and people killed in accidents, for example, and although it's an inexact science even today, I think they would be able to distinguish between a body dead for a couple of hours, (Abby) and one just freshly slaughtered (Andrew.) At least I hope they would!
I'm not a medical professional but I believe both Dr Dolan and Dr Bowen came to their conclusions that Andrew and Abby were murdered about an hour and a half apart because of the state of the blood at the scene. Andrew's was still quite liquid while Abby's had solidified to some degree. When the autopsy was done Abby's breakfast was still only partly digested, suggesting a death round about two hours after eating. John Morse gave testimony that he, Abby and Andrew had all participated in breakfast.
Don't know if Andrew ate anything downtown, probably not, but whatever he had had for breakfast had been digested. I don't know whether rigour mortis had started settling in with Abby or not but it certainly hadn't with Andrew. Both doctors were (obviously) used to the sight of blood flow and people killed in accidents, for example, and although it's an inexact science even today, I think they would be able to distinguish between a body dead for a couple of hours, (Abby) and one just freshly slaughtered (Andrew.) At least I hope they would!
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Re: All About Abby
You know, I forgot about the blood difference when I posted earlier.. sorry.
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Re: All About Abby
No need to be. We are all learning here. Several of our regulars are absent at the moment. Hope they will come back and post soon!
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Re: All About Abby
Yes, I'm learning but I see what people do to others here
Yes, I've noticed that there are only a handful of the regulars here... I see a lot of people on the earlier threads, too. What happened to them?
Yes, I've noticed that there are only a handful of the regulars here... I see a lot of people on the earlier threads, too. What happened to them?
- debbiediablo
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Re: All About Abby
Welcome Mystery Reader! I've been a bit overwhelmed at work lately plus my time for perplexion (my very own word meaning to reflect on something perplexing) has been spent on Oscar Pistorius who isn't nearly as smart as Lizzie-Emma-John Morse-Billy Borden-Pissed Off Tenant-David Anthony-Somebody Else. And Malaysian Flight 370.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
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Re: All About Abby
I like perplex ion, debbie. Welcome back! I too have been watching the Oscar Pistorius trial in amazement and wonder. Especially the defence part of the trial. All that weeping, vomiting, trembling and all for nothing, when your defence expert (and I use the word loosely) Dixon the geologist makes a complete idiot of himself! Also Malaysian Flight 370, nothing yet! Those poor relatives. I'm leaning towards pilot suicide more than the other theories. What say you?
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Re: All About Abby
I can't see anything else except pilot suicide or a GIANT malfunction of every redundancy on that 777 which is probably beyond possibility. Then again, maybe there's a conspiracy among nations to keep a forthcoming War of the Worlds under wraps...:-) Now there's a catalyst for anarchy.
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
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Re: All About Abby
debbiediablo wrote:Welcome Mystery Reader! I've been a bit overwhelmed at work lately plus my time for perplexion (my very own word meaning to reflect on something perplexing) has been spent on Oscar Pistorius who isn't nearly as smart as Lizzie-Emma-John Morse-Billy Borden-Pissed Off Tenant-David Anthony-Somebody Else. And Malaysian Flight 370.
Thanks, Debbie! I hear you- so much going on and not enough time to reflect and sort out.
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Re: All About Abby
I feel that as we are discussing Abby's death, a very interesting subject, that perhaps this thread may be of use rather than buried away.
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Re: All About Abby
Also good. I read through this before. Lots to think about. However the killer worked it had to be tight and inefficient. I can't figure out why the blows would come left to right. Seems like in those cramped quarters it would be an up and down motion. Or even right to left, if the killer grasped Abby's hair in a left hand and swung with his/her right. Plus the bit of hair on the bed sounds like it was hacked off and thrown aside presumably with the hand that was holding it. Since the bed was to the right it would seem the right hand would have tossed it there. Was Lizzie right or left handed or do we know? She could have been left handed and forced to use her right hand in school which was the way it was done even into the 1960s. Once again in discussing laundry hiding a hatchet or clothing worn by the killer, there is one apparently female-style apron the prosecution would love to have figured out but couldn't. Also it is barely toughed on in a couple of recent threads that Abby's arms were kind of just above her head according to a witness. (Doherty?) I wonder if she didn't instinctively start to reach up toward her head or something. I would think her arms would be under her body if she tried to break her fall. Also (I should dig out this testimony) a witness mentioned a scarf or something just ahead of Abby's hands/arms, on the floor. I think it was asked if Abby wore a head covering that day and the answer was no. Much has been made of a silk scarf Abby was supposed to have been wearing around her neck that day. I believe it is in the FRHS. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere in the legal proceedings and for some reason it wasn't bloodied enough to be buried with the other clothing? Or was this the scarf on the floor? I remember seeing on TV, someone matching the handleless hatchet blade to a slash in the fabric. What the heck? Nobody ever mentioned blood on the silk scarf.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: All About Abby
I think at one point Abby may have clutched at her head in a dazed sort of way after the first assault. However, she had facial contusions which were discussed at the trial and by Possum on an earlier post on this thread, and it seems she fell like an axed tree in the forest without putting her arms/hands out to break her fall. I'm not medically trained but it's possible she was becoming deeply unconscious after the first couple of blows in which I believe she twisted away from the bed to see her attacker and just slumped. It's certainly an odd position in which to land.
In one of the photos there's a light-coloured object near Abby that may be a napkin, maybe a large handkerchief. Abby kept some of the household linen in that room I believe. On the other hand, if it's a large handkerchief it may be to protect her hair while dusting (or to blow her nose!) It was bloodstained, but then, like so many other things in this case it is not made much of.
In one of the photos there's a light-coloured object near Abby that may be a napkin, maybe a large handkerchief. Abby kept some of the household linen in that room I believe. On the other hand, if it's a large handkerchief it may be to protect her hair while dusting (or to blow her nose!) It was bloodstained, but then, like so many other things in this case it is not made much of.
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Re: All About Abby
Autopsy report, wounds, blood splatter on this thread. Enjoy!
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Re: All About Abby
May I ask where we can find an account of Juror Hodges having this reaction? I found your post because I did a forum search for "faint"--trying to get a good source for Lizzie's fainting upon seeing the plaster skulls (she also fainted, I learned, just after Moody concluded his opening statements on the second day of the trial). Many thanks!
Curryong wrote:Both Patrolmen Doherty and Fleet mentioned seeing blood spots on the pillow shams. Wonder whether they were placed on the end of the bed (the shams, I mean) or the head.
From 'Goodbye Lizzie Borden' by Robert Sullivan. Page 123.
Dr Dolan's testimony.
Q. Now, taking the position of Mrs Borden, the pillow shams, the bedspreads, the spots on the pillow shams, mirrors and baseboard, where in your opinion did the assailant stand when inflicting those injuries?
A. Astride the body.
Q. And over it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did the assailant face?
A. Faced the east wall.
At this point Juror Hodges became faint, affected by the grisly dialogue. Hodges was a blacksmith. The jury was allowed to retire to their room for a while. After he'd recovered they returned.
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Re: All About Abby
There are some of us that don't believe that Lizzie ever fainted. Swooned a little, perhaps, but not outright fainting. Sure, there were news accounts of her fainting. Some of it could have been sensationalism. The late 18 hundreds was the peak of yellow journalism and selling papers was paramount. Twisting the truth was just another way at looking at the facts. Sound familiar?
I for one do not believe that Lizzie was in the courtroom when the skulls were displayed. I can't bring myself to believe that they would not have taken her out to a holding area while that portion of the proceedings were analyzed. There were newspaper reports to the contrary.... but there was also newspaper accounts which claimed that Lizzie was removed from the courtroom for some of Dr. Dolan's testimony.
As for Lizzie fainting.... don't believe that one either. She didn't faint when she found her father dead. Perhaps she gave the impression of Though with Alice and Mrs. Churchill were fanning her as she sat in a chair, Lizzie insisted that she was not faint.
One eyewitness at the trail had his own description of Lizzie fainting. He didn't believe she fainted and he was there. The quote below is by illustrator, B. West Clinedinst..... as told by Edmund Pearson. Though he appears to claim that Lizzie was in the courtroom during "the production in Court of her father's skull." Thus"
The prisoner, doubtless acting by suggestion of her lawyers, who are often thoughtful stage managers, appeared entirely, or almost entirely, in black. For the first time since the murders she had gone into mourning. She was carefully observed by reporters and sob sisters. Artists filled the newspapers with dreadful sketches of her, but one competent magazine illustrator, B. West Clinedinst, did justice to her and her leading counsel in Leslie's Weekly. Twice, during the trial, she swooned or seemed to be overcome in some degree. Once was at the close of Mr Moody's speech for the prosecution; and once was during the production in Court of her father's skull. Whether these were actual faintings, or whether she was prostrated, temporarily, by the heat, and her "new dress of black mohair," with leg-of-mutton sleeves, it is impossible to determine.
You may not know Benjamin Clinedinst by name but you sure know his art below......
I for one do not believe that Lizzie was in the courtroom when the skulls were displayed. I can't bring myself to believe that they would not have taken her out to a holding area while that portion of the proceedings were analyzed. There were newspaper reports to the contrary.... but there was also newspaper accounts which claimed that Lizzie was removed from the courtroom for some of Dr. Dolan's testimony.
As for Lizzie fainting.... don't believe that one either. She didn't faint when she found her father dead. Perhaps she gave the impression of Though with Alice and Mrs. Churchill were fanning her as she sat in a chair, Lizzie insisted that she was not faint.
One eyewitness at the trail had his own description of Lizzie fainting. He didn't believe she fainted and he was there. The quote below is by illustrator, B. West Clinedinst..... as told by Edmund Pearson. Though he appears to claim that Lizzie was in the courtroom during "the production in Court of her father's skull." Thus"
The prisoner, doubtless acting by suggestion of her lawyers, who are often thoughtful stage managers, appeared entirely, or almost entirely, in black. For the first time since the murders she had gone into mourning. She was carefully observed by reporters and sob sisters. Artists filled the newspapers with dreadful sketches of her, but one competent magazine illustrator, B. West Clinedinst, did justice to her and her leading counsel in Leslie's Weekly. Twice, during the trial, she swooned or seemed to be overcome in some degree. Once was at the close of Mr Moody's speech for the prosecution; and once was during the production in Court of her father's skull. Whether these were actual faintings, or whether she was prostrated, temporarily, by the heat, and her "new dress of black mohair," with leg-of-mutton sleeves, it is impossible to determine.
You may not know Benjamin Clinedinst by name but you sure know his art below......
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