Breaks in the Pattern
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- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I'm not taking anything personally. You could have simply posted your calculations, without addressing your post to me. The main reason I posted that link in the first place, was because it had a picture of the cup in it.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
'whatever!' sounds like you're taking it personally. i was simply having a conversation with you, twins. good grief.
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
reminder of what you posted above, that i was responding to:
A couple of things, in the link I posted above, which I found interesting was:
1. The size of the cup!
I never in my wildest dreams, did I think that cup would be so small!!! (4" high with a 3" circumference decorated and adorned with raised grape vines at the base of the cup). Using the following link, scroll down to, Method 1 of 2: Using the Diameter ("c" represents the circumference of the circle, and "d" represents its diameter): http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Ci ... f-a-Circle
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I'm not first to point this out, but what mother (step or otherwise) would use her first name on a gift to such a young child? Lizzie called Abby "Mother" at that age, or so we believe.
If this was indeed a gift from Abby to Lizzie, would it have been a charming gesture to spell her own name as the child might have spelled it? Abby doesn't strike me as the charming gesture type. Or maybe it was indeed an engraver's mistake. Do we know the cup's complete provenance? Was it among Lizzie's possessions at her death or was it contributed to posterity by a jeweler who found it in a dusty stockroom?
I like the idea that it might have been a communion cup. I was raised Catholic. Seven was the average age for First Communion, but I realize the Bordens weren't Catholics. Do various Protestant denominations have a similar ceremony for which the presentation of one's own cup would be appropriate? People were aware of germs then, weren't they? If you could afford it, you'd want to avoid using those tiny unsterile communion cups made available to the masses.
If this was indeed a gift from Abby to Lizzie, would it have been a charming gesture to spell her own name as the child might have spelled it? Abby doesn't strike me as the charming gesture type. Or maybe it was indeed an engraver's mistake. Do we know the cup's complete provenance? Was it among Lizzie's possessions at her death or was it contributed to posterity by a jeweler who found it in a dusty stockroom?
I like the idea that it might have been a communion cup. I was raised Catholic. Seven was the average age for First Communion, but I realize the Bordens weren't Catholics. Do various Protestant denominations have a similar ceremony for which the presentation of one's own cup would be appropriate? People were aware of germs then, weren't they? If you could afford it, you'd want to avoid using those tiny unsterile communion cups made available to the masses.
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I'm a bit confused. I just measured my coffee mug, and it is 3 inches across. Isn't that the diameter? It is also 3 3/4 inches high without a "foot" so there isn't anything unusual about the dimensions of that cup, is there? Just a mistake in the word diameter vs circumference?
in my opinion this was a gift for "Lizzie" from "Abbie" but not a Borden. Both names are common names for the time . Also, a common baby gift here used to be a cup, made of a light material, such as tin or thin plastic, with 2 handles, called a - weaning cup. Nowadays its usually a "sippy cup". (if it's not self explanatory- for use when weaning from breast or bottle) I think this was a baby gift for some other baby.
in my opinion this was a gift for "Lizzie" from "Abbie" but not a Borden. Both names are common names for the time . Also, a common baby gift here used to be a cup, made of a light material, such as tin or thin plastic, with 2 handles, called a - weaning cup. Nowadays its usually a "sippy cup". (if it's not self explanatory- for use when weaning from breast or bottle) I think this was a baby gift for some other baby.
- debbiediablo
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Yes, Mara, Confirmation is celebrated in the Methodist and Lutheran Churches for sure (the denominations I'm familiar with) and probably in all other Protestant churches, too, although at different ages. Some wait until young adulthood.
DebbieDiablo
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- PossumPie
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I think if I were a Mother/Step-mother I would certainly put "to Lizzie from Mother/Mommy/Mom" if she was 5-6 years old. In fact we KNOW that Lizzie called Abby "Mother" even as an adult, until the fight about the house.
If I were looking to create a fake in order to push it as genuine, I would put "to Lizzie from Abby" Of course it could be a different Lizzie/Abby completely.
If I were looking to create a fake in order to push it as genuine, I would put "to Lizzie from Abby" Of course it could be a different Lizzie/Abby completely.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
- PossumPie
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Diameter is the distance across the circle from one point to an opposite point going straight through the middle. In a cup/bowl, this is from the outside lip to the opposite outside lip. Circumference is the distance around a circle from a point all the way round to the same point. It is 3.1415 X twice the radius (which is the diameter) My Doctor Who coffee mug has a diameter of 8cm so its circumference is 3.1415 X 8 = 25cm (about 10 inches).Miranda wrote:I'm a bit confused. I just measured my coffee mug, and it is 3 inches across. Isn't that the diameter? It is also 3 3/4 inches high without a "foot" so there isn't anything unusual about the dimensions of that cup, is there? Just a mistake in the word diameter vs circumference?
in my opinion this was a gift for "Lizzie" from "Abbie" but not a Borden. Both names are common names for the time . Also, a common baby gift here used to be a cup, made of a light material, such as tin or thin plastic, with 2 handles, called a - weaning cup. Nowadays its usually a "sippy cup". (if it's not self explanatory- for use when weaning from breast or bottle) I think this was a baby gift for some other baby.
The VOLUME of a cylinder--how much it will hold-- (Better done in metric units) is 3.1415 X the radius squared (4cm squared) X the height (9cm). My Doctor Who mug's volume is 452milliliters (about 15 oz)
A cup with a circumference of 3 inches would be less than 1 inch across the top and hold only a swallow of liquid.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
mara, my thinking is that if this cup is from abby borden to lizzie, she may have used her first name in an effort to not try to replace lizzie and emma's real mom. to be sensitive to lizzie's feelings. i don't know, though, if that would have been done back then.
unfortunately we don't know the provenance. that would help a lot!
i was raised presbyterian, and we had no communion. i don't know about congregationalists. but this does remind me of a communion cup.
unfortunately we don't know the provenance. that would help a lot!
i was raised presbyterian, and we had no communion. i don't know about congregationalists. but this does remind me of a communion cup.
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I was Anglican as a child, Methodist as an adult. Anglicans are confirmed at the age of 11 or 12, as I was. Episcopalians are the equivalent in the U.S., aren't they, don't know if they do it too. Like some of you I'm getting suspicious about this cup! I'm sure it would have said 'Mother' at that period. Am getting feelings of christening cup for a baby, from a very much older sister, perhaps.
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern - Veering OT
If this were a communion cup, wouldn't it have a cross on it somewhere? And just for extras, I've been searching online for a match to this cup. My searches have so far revealed a category of sterling (or sometimes coin) silver item known as the Youth Cup. (Sometimes these would be part of a set, but not necessarily.) Gorham Mfg. Co. of Providence RI made a style similar to this from c.1850-1860. So even if the Abbie-to-Lizze inscription is suspicious, at least the date is looking correct. :)
Oh, and I've been meaning to chime in on the odd dimensions. Somebody used the wrong word, that's all. They meant diameter but wrote circumference. It happens. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Oh, and I've been meaning to chime in on the odd dimensions. Somebody used the wrong word, that's all. They meant diameter but wrote circumference. It happens. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
- debbiediablo
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Confirmation in Protestant churches is the same as First Communion in the Catholic Church. Communion is celebrated in most both Lutheran and Methodist churches, and many other Protestant churches, but I think the only church that believes in transubstantiation is the Catholic Church and possibly some lesser practices in the west like Eastern Orthodox. I would not see a cup being a gift for Confirmation other than in the Catholic Church and then it is the blood of Christ offered by the priest in the cup that has been blessed, not one that is brought along for the ceremony. It wouldn't be an impossible gift, but it would be highly unusual.
DebbieDiablo
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- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Catbooks, I owe you a huge apology. You must think I’m the world’s biggest jerk, and I can’t say as though I blame you if you do.Catbooks wrote:'whatever!' sounds like you're taking it personally. i was simply having a conversation with you, twins. good grief.
I had a horrible day at work, and was very flustered when I got home. In addition to that, my sinuses were acting up, so I felt like someone had punched me in the nose! I really didn’t take your post personally. It’s just that at that point in time, I couldn’t have care less about the size of Lizzie’s silver cup.
I know there isn’t any excuse for the way I responded to your post, but I feel you deserve an explanation as to why I responded in the manner in which I did. I am truly sorry. I hope you can forgive me.
I understand, and can now appreciate the information you posted in response to my post above. Again, I am truly sorry.Catbooks wrote:reminder of what you posted above, that i was responding to:
A couple of things, in the link I posted above, which I found interesting was:
1. The size of the cup!
I never in my wildest dreams, did I think that cup would be so small!!! (4" high with a 3" circumference decorated and adorned with raised grape vines at the base of the cup). Using the following link, scroll down to, Method 1 of 2: Using the Diameter ("c" represents the circumference of the circle, and "d" represents its diameter): http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Ci ... f-a-Circle
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
That's interesting Mara, in that the dates of the Youth Cup fit, and the maker is in Providence, not a million miles away from Borden country. I really wish we had that provenance! Did your investigations reveal anything about what the Youth Cup was used for? I just get the feeling of a much younger child being given the wee cup, and considering the number of Abbys/Abbies and Lizzies there were in 19th century America, it could belong to anyone.
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
aw, twins, i'm sorry you had such an awful day, and i accept your apologytwinsrwe wrote:Catbooks, I owe you a huge apology. You must think I’m the world’s biggest jerk, and I can’t say as though I blame you if you do.Catbooks wrote:'whatever!' sounds like you're taking it personally. i was simply having a conversation with you, twins. good grief.
I had a horrible day at work, and was very flustered when I got home. In addition to that, my sinuses were acting up, so I felt like someone had punched me in the nose! I really didn’t take your post personally. It’s just that at that point in time, I couldn’t have care less about the size of Lizzie’s silver cup.
I know there isn’t any excuse for the way I responded to your post, but I feel you deserve an explanation as to why I responded in the manner in which I did. I am truly sorry. I hope you can forgive me.
I understand, and can now appreciate the information you posted in response to my post above. Again, I am truly sorry.Catbooks wrote:reminder of what you posted above, that i was responding to:
A couple of things, in the link I posted above, which I found interesting was:
1. The size of the cup!
I never in my wildest dreams, did I think that cup would be so small!!! (4" high with a 3" circumference decorated and adorned with raised grape vines at the base of the cup). Using the following link, scroll down to, Method 1 of 2: Using the Diameter ("c" represents the circumference of the circle, and "d" represents its diameter): http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Ci ... f-a-Circle
![Smile :smile:](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Thank you, Catbooks. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you accepting my apology. I am feeling much better now. I am so grateful that we are now on good terms, and can start again with a renewed respect for each other.Catbooks wrote:… aw, twins, i'm sorry you had such an awful day, and i accept your apology. it takes a big person to do that. thank you. we're good now! hope you're feeling better.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
*smile* i'm glad too, twins.
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Back to breaks in the pattern! In court Emma did a good, very equivocal job on her sister's behalf didn't she? Skate, skate over the very uncomfortable truth (as Lizzie did at the Inquest) that neither of them called Abby 'mother,' or that they went nowhere with her unless they had to, and that, for the last five years of Abby and Andrew's life, the tension in the home was getting worse.
Incidentally, hadn't Andrew stopped going to Church? I can't remember the details but it was something to do with having to pay some tax and he objected so much he didn't go anymore, as the man who imposed the tax was a Church elder he would have to meet every Sunday. So Andrew became a heathen!
Incidentally, hadn't Andrew stopped going to Church? I can't remember the details but it was something to do with having to pay some tax and he objected so much he didn't go anymore, as the man who imposed the tax was a Church elder he would have to meet every Sunday. So Andrew became a heathen!
- debbiediablo
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Andrew seems to have worshiped at the Altar of the Almighty Dollar.
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
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*´¨)
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Sorry, Curryong, my trail stopped there! I wasn't ab;e to determine what a "youth cup" was used for. At first, I thought maybe a punch cup of some sort. I don't know. I'm swamped with work right now, but I'll put this on my list for something fun to do this weekend. :)Curryong wrote:That's interesting Mara, in that the dates of the Youth Cup fit, and the maker is in Providence, not a million miles away from Borden country. I really wish we had that provenance! Did your investigations reveal anything about what the Youth Cup was used for? I just get the feeling of a much younger child being given the wee cup, and considering the number of Abbys/Abbies and Lizzies there were in 19th century America, it could belong to anyone.
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I'll look forward to it! It sound like the sort of thing that might be handed over, unengraved, of course, as a Sunday School prize, or something of that sort. I got the book 'What Katy Did' once, but a cup sounds nicer!
- PossumPie
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I still think we need to exercise caution. First it could be another Lizzie and Abbie. Leonard Rebello who presented the cup (as far as I can tell) never proves beyond reasonable doubt that it is BORDEN. 1868 date strengthens the claim, BUT it is easily added later, or the whole engraving may be forged. Most of the time items like this come with a letter of authenticity, often tracing who owned it, showing a relationship to the original owner. If Rebello could show HOW the current owner came to be in possession of it, I would be less skeptical. Either way, it's authenticity does nothing for the case.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Isn't Mr Rebello dead, or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? I thought he died some time ago.
Last edited by Curryong on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
The only youth/child cups I've been able to find that have a grapevine or grapes motif are intended for Jewish children's use at the formal Shabbat meal celebrated weekly in observant homes, or for the special Passover Seder. (Children are given watered down wine.)
Further enlightening us along Jewish traditional lines, "Abbie" can be a Hebrew name, either on its own or short for Abigail (which was the name of one of King David's wives). It can also be a male Hebrew nickname (think Abbie Hoffman). Some of you might remember "Abie's Irish Rose," about a cross-cultural romance.
So I think this cup was a gift to a Jewish young lady/girl named Lizzie by a family friend, beau or sibling named Abbie in a Jewish household in 1868, rather than from our Abby to our Lizzie.
Further enlightening us along Jewish traditional lines, "Abbie" can be a Hebrew name, either on its own or short for Abigail (which was the name of one of King David's wives). It can also be a male Hebrew nickname (think Abbie Hoffman). Some of you might remember "Abie's Irish Rose," about a cross-cultural romance.
So I think this cup was a gift to a Jewish young lady/girl named Lizzie by a family friend, beau or sibling named Abbie in a Jewish household in 1868, rather than from our Abby to our Lizzie.
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Wonderful work, Mara! Well done! So the cup (probably) isn't our Lizzie's after all. No wonder Rebello couldn't answer questions about the provenance. There wasn't any!
By the way, Mara, I posted a link with information on your favourite girl, (Nance,) on the 'Life after Murder' link!
By the way, Mara, I posted a link with information on your favourite girl, (Nance,) on the 'Life after Murder' link!
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I see that, Curryong, thank you!
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Good job, Mara! I agree with you; I think this cup was a gift to a another Lizzie, from another Abbie. If our Lizzie disliked Abby as much as we are led to believe, then I highly doubt she would have kept the cup for sentimental reasons.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
i didn't know mr. rebello had died :(
he was so meticulous about being accurate, it surprises me he'd include the cup in his book if there wasn't good reason to think it was lizzie's. but i thought it odd that in the other thread apparently people had or were going to contact him about it, and then nothing more was said.
the only thing i can think of is perhaps the owner or donor of the cup was absolutely convinced it really was lizzie's, and mr. rebello didn't want to offend him or her, so included the photo in the book. without a caption, just the photo itself.
thanks for all of your detective work, mara :)
he was so meticulous about being accurate, it surprises me he'd include the cup in his book if there wasn't good reason to think it was lizzie's. but i thought it odd that in the other thread apparently people had or were going to contact him about it, and then nothing more was said.
the only thing i can think of is perhaps the owner or donor of the cup was absolutely convinced it really was lizzie's, and mr. rebello didn't want to offend him or her, so included the photo in the book. without a caption, just the photo itself.
thanks for all of your detective work, mara :)
- PossumPie
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
As I said earlier, for something that vague (two first names) to be included in the book, one would almost have to be able to trace it's ownership back. If we were told that it came from the grandson of a known friend of Lizzie, THEN we could be more sure. But a cup without a "pedigree" is meaningless.Catbooks wrote:i didn't know mr. rebello had died :(
he was so meticulous about being accurate, it surprises me he'd include the cup in his book if there wasn't good reason to think it was lizzie's. but i thought it odd that in the other thread apparently people had or were going to contact him about it, and then nothing more was said.
the only thing i can think of is perhaps the owner or donor of the cup was absolutely convinced it really was lizzie's, and mr. rebello didn't want to offend him or her, so included the photo in the book. without a caption, just the photo itself.
thanks for all of your detective work, mara :)
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Having just visited with some local folk who recently showed a dog at the Westminster Dog Show but didn't win anything, one could say that a pedigree without a cup is meaningless, too -- except in their case, the dog is super-sweet and a wonderful pet, cup or no cup :)PossumPie wrote:But a cup without a "pedigree" is meaningless.
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I'm sure it is. The cup too remains a nice little cup. It just doesn't appear now to have been associated with an accused murderess!
- Mara
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Yeah, too bad for whoever thought they had a bona fide souvenir of the Borden murders! I imagine most events that draw so much attention will always inspire the creation of such things, or cause people to invest perfectly innocent objects with guilt by association ;)
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
i'd love to know the real story of it. who acquired it, from whence, and how did the photo get into rebello's book? i'd seen a photo of it in another lizzie book, but it had a caption stating it was a gift from abby borden to lizzie.
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I just finished doing a Google search, and found nothing about Len Rebello dying. I’m sure there would have been a topic regarding Len’s death here on this forum, if he had indeed passed away.Curryong wrote:Isn't Mr Rebello dead, or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? I thought he died some time ago.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Thanks, twinsrwe, to have gone to so much trouble. I thought that he had died some time ago but must have been mistaken, (perhaps thinking of someone else.)
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
You're welcome, Curryong. We are all human, and we all make mistakes, so don't feel bad. Just a suggestion; you could PM Stefani, she would definitely know.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Back to the original point of the thread! Breaks in the Pattern. Hope this counts as one. When Bridget gave evidence at the Prelim about the minutes before Andrew's death this exchange occurred. (Page 81)
Q Did she (Lizzie) ever tell you about any sale at Sargent's before this particular day?
A. No Sir.
Q. Is this the first time she mentioned it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About any chance of buying any?
A Yes sir, Emma had a good many times told me about bargains.
Q. Miss Lizzie had not before, so far as you recollect?
A. No Sir.
Q What did you do next?
A I went upstairs directly after that."
Haven't discovered yet whether there WAS a sale on at Sargent's on Thursday. If there wasn't, then the helpful Lizzie seems to be doing her best to get Bridget out of the house and on a wild goose chase. (Sargent's was a 10 minute walk away. 20 there and back.) Lizzie denied telling Bridget this, by the way. Her lawyers said she (Lizzie) 'might have predicted a sale,' whatever that means.
Thursdays were Bridget's half-days off. Did Lizzie know about her father's dinner invitation to John Morse, if not was she planning to do her father in later, perhaps, in the early afternoon after Bridget had gone out, and was she then planning to use the Sargent's sale as an alibi for herself? Interesting questions!
Q Did she (Lizzie) ever tell you about any sale at Sargent's before this particular day?
A. No Sir.
Q. Is this the first time she mentioned it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About any chance of buying any?
A Yes sir, Emma had a good many times told me about bargains.
Q. Miss Lizzie had not before, so far as you recollect?
A. No Sir.
Q What did you do next?
A I went upstairs directly after that."
Haven't discovered yet whether there WAS a sale on at Sargent's on Thursday. If there wasn't, then the helpful Lizzie seems to be doing her best to get Bridget out of the house and on a wild goose chase. (Sargent's was a 10 minute walk away. 20 there and back.) Lizzie denied telling Bridget this, by the way. Her lawyers said she (Lizzie) 'might have predicted a sale,' whatever that means.
Thursdays were Bridget's half-days off. Did Lizzie know about her father's dinner invitation to John Morse, if not was she planning to do her father in later, perhaps, in the early afternoon after Bridget had gone out, and was she then planning to use the Sargent's sale as an alibi for herself? Interesting questions!
- PossumPie
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Having your menses is a predictable pattern, but I wonder if anyone ever confirmed that she really did. It was such a taboo subject, but I would have LOVED to know if Bridget and/or Emma knew Lizzie did NOT have her period, and said nothing. It is common belief that women who live closely together 'synchronize' their periods, but there is conflicting evidence saying it isn't true. Even still, they would probably have known for sure if Lizzie did or didn't. If Lizzie didn't have it, and said she did as the reason for bloody rags, that is a break in pattern.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I believe poor Bridget had the pleasure of washing Lizzie's 'rags' during her periods. I believe she said that she had never seen the pail in the cellar that Lizzie stated had been there for two or three days. Monday was wash-day, apparently in the Borden house.
Of course such things weren't discussed by the police, we just have Lizzie's hints that 'the doctor' knew about the bloodied rags in the pail. Therefore it was 'all right'. Nowadays any bloodied cloths would be examined minutely, but due to Victorian sensitivities we shall never know the truth about that pail.
We don't know, of course, whether her periods commenced on the same dates while she was in custody. It would have been enlightening to have found out, but as was usual, no-one breathed a word, not even the Prison matron.
Of course such things weren't discussed by the police, we just have Lizzie's hints that 'the doctor' knew about the bloodied rags in the pail. Therefore it was 'all right'. Nowadays any bloodied cloths would be examined minutely, but due to Victorian sensitivities we shall never know the truth about that pail.
We don't know, of course, whether her periods commenced on the same dates while she was in custody. It would have been enlightening to have found out, but as was usual, no-one breathed a word, not even the Prison matron.
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Curryong, apparently, the sale at the Frank E. Sargent Co. went on all week long. I found the following topic in the archives, which includes an attachment of the Frank E. Sargent Co. sale on Thursday, August 4th. (You’ll want to read the entire thread, because Kat made a very good point the post she submitted on Sep 02, 2005).Curryong wrote:... Haven't discovered yet whether there WAS a sale on at Sargent's on Thursday. ...
viewtopic.php?t=1298&p=19201
Last edited by twinsrwe on Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Thank you twins for posting the link. As always, you go to so much trouble.
However, I have been through that particular thread and posted what Harry posted on another thread 'Daylight Robbery but Why'. The big problem is, as he pointed out, the paper of the 4th (in the attachment) is both anonymous, in that we don't know if it is Fall River Evening News of the 4th (which would place it of course after the murders) or the daily newspaper which we don't know was delivered to the Bordens, and refers to a sale on the 5th.
It's quite the little mystery, but I am sure, as you say, it was a week-long sale. Indeed, I read in that thread I can't find again, 'The Sale at Frank E Sargent's' of June 2008 (so frustrating!) a poster, I believe, suggested it was month-long.
The common-sense solution is probably that Lizzie saw a flyer or advertisements in the shop window itself while shopping earlier in the week. It's just odd that Lizzie denied that she had told Bridget anything about a sale!
However, I have been through that particular thread and posted what Harry posted on another thread 'Daylight Robbery but Why'. The big problem is, as he pointed out, the paper of the 4th (in the attachment) is both anonymous, in that we don't know if it is Fall River Evening News of the 4th (which would place it of course after the murders) or the daily newspaper which we don't know was delivered to the Bordens, and refers to a sale on the 5th.
It's quite the little mystery, but I am sure, as you say, it was a week-long sale. Indeed, I read in that thread I can't find again, 'The Sale at Frank E Sargent's' of June 2008 (so frustrating!) a poster, I believe, suggested it was month-long.
The common-sense solution is probably that Lizzie saw a flyer or advertisements in the shop window itself while shopping earlier in the week. It's just odd that Lizzie denied that she had told Bridget anything about a sale!
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
oh, that is a good one, curryong! that's a definite break in lizzie's pattern. i didn't know she'd never before told bridget about a sale, yet emma had, or that lizzie had later denied telling her. also, how strange that while lizzie denied it, her lawyers said she 'might have predicted a sale.'
the fact that bridget went upstairs to her room right after this conversation, hmm.
the fact that bridget went upstairs to her room right after this conversation, hmm.
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
You’re welcome, Curryong.Curryong wrote:Thank you twins for posting the link. As always, you go to so much trouble.
However, I have been through that particular thread and posted what Harry posted on another thread 'Daylight Robbery but Why'. The big problem is, as he pointed out, the paper of the 4th (in the attachment) is both anonymous, in that we don't know if it is Fall River Evening News of the 4th (which would place it of course after the murders) or the daily newspaper which we don't know was delivered to the Bordens, and refers to a sale on the 5th.
It's quite the little mystery, but I am sure, as you say, it was a week-long sale. Indeed, I read in that thread I can't find again, 'The Sale at Frank E Sargent's' of June 2008 (so frustrating!) a poster, I believe, suggested it was month-long.
The common-sense solution is probably that Lizzie saw a flyer or advertisements in the shop window itself while shopping earlier in the week. It's just odd that Lizzie denied that she had told Bridget anything about a sale!
You make a very good point! You’re right, we don’t know if the ad Harry posted was put in the morning or evening newspaper. Harry did state: (paper unknown, but I suspect the FR Daily Herald or FR Evening News).
Here’s another thought. Harry posted: In the FR Evening News for August 1, Monday: "Frank E. Sargent Co. - Final Summer Sale" I wonder if the Sargent Co. had a final summer sale every year, for a week, beginning the first week of August. If they did, then Lizzie would have known that the sale would still be in effect on Thursday.
It’s unfortunate that Nanice, who stated that the sale went all on week and claimed to have the original newspapers, did not post the ads or at least verify which newspaper the ad Harry posted was in. Harry even stated: Nancie, if you can add to this information it would be appreciated. However, there was no response from Nancie.
![Sad :sad:](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
I think Lizzie denied that she had told Bridget about the sale, because if she had admitted that she did tell Bridget about the sale then it would have been an incriminating act on her part.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
You are correct, twinsrwe, it's a great pity that Nancie didn't post back at all as it would have been extremely helpful. I am sure that you are right and Sargent's did have regular ongoing summer sales. At the moment, however, that's as far as we can get in documenting that little mystery!
I am quite convinced that Lizzie did mention the sale, (no reason for Bridget to lie about such a minute thing) and she probably did it to lure Bridget away from the house. However, poor Bridget, tired and under-the-weather, wasn't going anywhere!
I am quite convinced that Lizzie did mention the sale, (no reason for Bridget to lie about such a minute thing) and she probably did it to lure Bridget away from the house. However, poor Bridget, tired and under-the-weather, wasn't going anywhere!
- twinsrwe
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
I agree!
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
it is too bad nancie never came back. it would have been very helpful if she could have scanned and posted that ad!
i also agree, lizzie did say it and i believe it was to get bridget out of the house. bridget had absolutely no reason to make that up, and it's not like she could have been mistaken by someone else saying it to her.
i too think she denied saying it because she thought it would look incriminating. unlike the stories about hearing the groan, the scraping noise, then nothing, and going out to the barn to get lead sinkers, oops i mean lead to fix a screen![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
i also agree, lizzie did say it and i believe it was to get bridget out of the house. bridget had absolutely no reason to make that up, and it's not like she could have been mistaken by someone else saying it to her.
i too think she denied saying it because she thought it would look incriminating. unlike the stories about hearing the groan, the scraping noise, then nothing, and going out to the barn to get lead sinkers, oops i mean lead to fix a screen
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Len Rebello has not passed away. I am speaking with him now. This minute. Alive and well. Promise!
Read Mondo Lizzie!
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/
Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/
Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
The reports of his death are greatly exaggerated. (With apologies to Mark Twain)Stefani wrote:Len Rebello has not passed away. I am speaking with him now. This minute. Alive and well. Promise!
DebbieDiablo
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
hooray! i'm glad to hear it :)Stefani wrote:Len Rebello has not passed away. I am speaking with him now. This minute. Alive and well. Promise!
can you ask him about the provenance of that lizzie/abbie cup we've been wondering about?
- Curryong
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Re: Breaks in the Pattern
Thank heavens I got hold of the wrong end of the stick! As well as the provenance of the cup could he please twist his publiisher's arm and insist on another edition of 'Lizzie Borden: Past and Present' PLEASE! The scarcity of that book, considered a necessity by Bordenites, has driven up its price to very high levels on Amazon and E-bay.