Lizzie's Dresses

[twinsrwe]

Sorry, BOBO, for the off topic posts, but I had to tell about my niece's starring role in her 'The Black Dahlia' play.

Now, back on topic: I think it is hard for us to envision doing much of anything, including breathing, in a cinched corseted dress, like they wore in 1892. Woman’s dresses of today are made for comfort, where the Victorian Era woman’s dresses were not. I think the woman in 1892, were use to wearing cinched corsets, and dress hems to the floor. I’m sure they were more than capable of committing murder using a hatchet without having to straddle the victim’s back to accomplish the deed.

[irina]

I always had the idea that women in the Victorian Age maybe didn't wear all the corsets and such at home but someone here, probably Curryong was of the opinion that they would. It would be interesting to know how casually Lizzie would have dressed around the house at the time of the murders. I especially want to know about her hair. If it wasn't pinned up then it doesn't mean so much that people said every one of her hairs was in place. If it was pinned up I think that comment has significance.

I have noted in Jack the ripper records on the victims that some of the women wore "short stays" or loose stays or none at all. I assume this has to do with the length of a laced up undergarment. Even some of these very poor women had rudimentary "stays" whether or not they were heavily laced, etc.

Off topic and considering the Black Dahlia, since it came up, I checked the book I have which seemed to have a long title. It is "Severed" but the rest of the title takes up most of the space on the dust jacket. Very excellent book. I checked out a couple reviews of this book online and one comment said it was 50% fiction and 25% error, or something. No source list, etc. That is true but it is a heck of a good read and Gilmore is an excellent writer.

I think the Black Dahlia is partly responsible for my very existence~at least my existence as the product of both of my parents. I was a late in life baby for my parents who both had professional careers before they even met each other. My mom worked in Los Angeles for many years and had a healthy and decent social life, played tennis and did the other pleasant things the area has to offer. She would never discuss the Black Dahlia case but in reference to it she said LA was changing and becoming dangerous and so she decided to leave. The implication was that the Dahlia case was a deciding factor. So she came up north and met my dad. Because of the kind of work my mom did I would think she would have had some extra knowledge of the case through legal offices where she worked. She passed away many years ago and I don't know anything else.

[Curryong]

Irina, we wondered where you were.

I can imagine anyone being horrified by the Black Dahlia murder and wanting to leave the city. I too think that 'Severed' is a good read, but I don't know enough of the facts of the case to know whether Gilmore is accurate or not.

I too was a late baby, born ten years after my parents' marriage. My father was away for most of the war, but a baby boy was born at the end of it and died at birth. My mother was 34 when I was born and my father 37, so they were elderly parents for those days. I was an only child. My mother worked as a secretary in a hospital during the war.

As far as Lizzie is concerned, apparently she wore bespoke clothing for which she would have been fitted by a dressmaker. (She would have worn corsets for the fitting.) The skirts of the early 1890's were reasonably generous but smooth over the hips and the waistlines were tiny, so I can't imagine a robust woman (not stout but sturdy) being able to slip into a skirt without corsets.

[irina]

Until this forum I always assumed a "wrapper" as/in Lizzie's attire, not the things she addressed for Abby, was a looser fitting house dress. Wrapper doesn't sound all that formal. On some site with pictures of vintage clothing there was a picture of a wrapper the way I picture it but I defer to your more extensive knowledge Curryong.

It was mentioned earlier in this thread about, for instance Lizzie, being able to effectively commit a hatchet murder while wearing tight corsets. A friend on Twitter once posted a how-to fit and apply a corset properly in the Victorian/Edwardian era. There was a bit of science to it involving elevating the hips on a pillow, with the head and chest lower. I assumed this allowed internal organs to find their best place to not be terribly affected by tight lacing. It was very interesting. My first mother-in-law~incidentally born almost on the day Lizzie was acquitted in 1893~said tight corsets affected breathing and thus women had "the vapours" and were revived with smelling salts, etc. I would think the worst effect would be to restrict diaphragmatic breathing and thus breathing would be shallow and use accessory muscles. We are always told to breathe deeply, with our diaphragms, for relaxation and healing, etc.

Since the Black Dahlia case was never solved the basic facts are what they are. Author Gilmore had some other things to add and I think the opinion I previously mentioned had to do with him not including his sources in his book. The book had excellent sales and it regenerated interest in the subject so it serves its purpose. I enjoyed it very much.

[Curryong]

It may be a cross-cultural thing! Before I joined the Forum I believed that tea-gowns (an English term) were loose gowns that were worn by women when they lounged around corsetless at home in Victorian England. (There were lacier ones which were worn when gentlemen came back from their daily Shoots at Edwardian house-parties, but we won't go into that!)

When this thread (I think it was this thread) started I assumed that the American term 'wrapper' (such as the pink striped number of Lizzie's) meant the same thing, but apparently it doesn't. I was informed by the same poster that told me about the cut of clothing that a wrapper wasn't like a tea gown. The pink dress (wrapper) was described by Bridget I think as a 'Basque' (that is, skirt and top.) I imagine the blue dress Lizzie wore that morning was a 'house-dress' not a 'lounging' dress but was two piece as well, as didn't Alice mention that she had noticed that the bodice was loosened when she was tending to Lizzie?

[Curryong]

Just checked. Depending on the writer, a 'wrapper' appears to be a hybrid term describing everything from a glorified fancy dressing gown to a sort of tea-gown, worn without corsets in both cases. I don't suppose it matters much really, as the dress Lizzie wore that morning before the murders and just after wasn't described as a wrapper but as a house gown. If it was the paint stained number it appears to have been quite sleek and elaborate, with even a small semi-train, but not designed for walking in the street.

[debbiediablo]

1890s Blue Wrapper.jpg

This is from http://www.pinterest.com/pin/94927504618643618/ The photo is of a 1890s wrapper...blue (not pink) in honor of Lizzie!

1873: “A lady should never receive morning callers in a wrapper.”

“The most suitable dress for breakfast is a wrapper made to fit the figure loosely,” advised Florence Hartley in her 1873 publication The Ladies' Book of Etiquette, Fashion, and Manual of Politeness.

In her chapter Entitled “Home Dresses” Hartley notes that while the wrapper should be loosely Fitted, it should not fit too loosely, as it was a woman’s goal to appear trim and neat, even first thing in the morning.

[debbiediablo]

The ones from the 1860s were much looser, and then there are wrappers made for a bustle underneath.

Who on earth would willingly wear a bustle to breakfast??!?!

[Curryong]

Yes, a lot were filled with horse-hair, apparently. It would be like resting your behind against a prickly cushion!

I've decided it wasn't this thread there was a debate on about wrappers. It was one about Lizzie's loosened clothing. Have to find it.

[debbiediablo]

If she changed into a dress of this type...a wrapper...then I can understand why if she was wearing a corset earlier. The change might not be to hide blood splatter but rather to breathe more freely when under enormous stress.

[Curryong]

Thanks for posting that illustration, debbie. It is quite loose isn't it and could easily be worn without corsets. Of course, it's completely unfashionable! It doesn't have a hint of the rather prominent sleeves of the time or decorated bodice. It's in a pretty shade of blue though, and it looks quite nice and comfortable.

[debbiediablo]

I Googled "wrapper Victorian dress" and then Images. Lots of pictures, but the ones that are loose or have a bustle appear to be from mid-1900s. Some of them were pretty, but I was looking for one with a tie at the waist as per Harrington's description although this isn't quite what I envisioned when reading his testimony. Somewhere I read a comment that Bridget was the best dressed person in the house, but I'm not sure on the accuracy. Might have been Masterson confabulating.

[irina]

Thanks for finding all that, Debbie. The wrapper picture I saw (on the less than academic site known as Pinterest), had two pieces as Lizzie's dress was described. Both were of the same material and there was a kind of tie around the middle. First thing I thought was it looked kind of like a maternity outfit. Lots of loose fabric without any style. Possibly Victoria Lincoln defined wrapper in a similar way. That was a good thing about her book, she had a chatty way of describing everything, right or wrong. (I would say Gilmore in "Severed" has the same style and perhaps that is why one reviewer said that book is about 75% inaccurate.)

[debbiediablo]

Irina If you find a picture you want to share the link can be copied and pasted right into text or you can click on the photo and often times drag and drop it onto your desktop where it can be uploaded. I use a OS Maverick for Mac and that allows me to right click on a photo and save it to desktop. I like to keep files like that on my desktop for an easy find when uploading. Once shared, I put them to the Trash. To upload you follow the instructions at the bottom of the screen when in the Full Edit mode. If you already know this then ignore me. I love the idea that a picture is worth 1,000 words.

[irina]

Uh...yeah, Debbie....uh I have no idea what I'm doing online. I haven't been feeling well so took a couple days to mess with my file system I can't ever get into. I at least figured out you can't open a file that doesn't have anything it. Duh! I have a sideline of telephoto photography and my inability to handle files is a problem. So I kind of understand the file system now. My system runs on apps and I maybe need some new apps but don't know what they are. I finally got an app that will share pictures on Twitter. That's a step up.

I could try to do something through email since this forum is connected by email, but I'm not sure how to get something on the correct thread. Is there a certain service that I should select on my connecting app? I usually do everything through g-mail, Twitter or Facebook. What else do I need?

[debbiediablo]

To post photos:

• click on 'Post a Reply'

• then click on 'Full Editor'

• toward the bottom left of the screen (in blue) click on 'Upload Attachment'

• a small screen will open below; click on 'Browse'...this will allow you to select photos from your computer...I move mine onto the desktop so they're readily accessible. Usually they're something I've found online so once posted they go to the Trash.

• Open whichever one(s) you want to share; if more than one you'll need to perform operations consecutively. If stored in a System Folder you'll need to Open folders until you reach the correct file. You are there when you click 'Open' and the photo you want to share appears in the box.

• Then, when the filename appears next to 'Browse', click on 'Add the File'

• The file will appear above under a blue header 'Posted Attachments'...there's a small dialog box to type in any descriptor you want to include, i.e. '1890s Blue Wrapper'

• To ensure you have what you want, hit 'Preview' before submitting.

I'm not familiar with Chromebook so this is a guess, but I don't think you need any additional applications. The photos or screenshots will appear in whatever thread you choose to upload them.

(I am terrible with giving directions, so please correct if wrong or I've forgotten something...I use Maverick for Mac so this may be slightly different depending on the operating system.)

[irina]

OH! THANK YOU!

I have the same control panel here as everyone else does. With my self-cramming course the past few days I think I know how to handle my files now. There is a glimmer of understanding in my head! A big problem I had was that in the process of putting something in a file I was asked for a "title". Hey, that's easy. Problem is I think I didn't complete the process so the nicely titled files were empty. Then I couldn't "open" them because there wasn't anything there. Meanwhile photos slipped out of albumns and got themselves J-pegged with numbers and icons. At least J-pegging isn't difficult like it was ten years ago.

I may yet learn. Thank you for the help!

[twinsrwe]

Hello glendalehalloween, welcome to the forum.

You're welcome for the information posted on this thread. I checked out your web site; very interesting!