A view of the Churchill house

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:32 pm

I cropped the picture to isolate the roof on the Churchill house and resized it to make it a little bigger. Hope this helps some.

Elizabeth Ann · Post by **Elizabeth Ann** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:15 pm

This enlarged pic really brings out the great gingerbread features of the house such as the carved corner piece at the top of the pillar. Taking a guess that the fence would be wrought iron, but the porch bannister is hard to see. Looks as if it too could be fancy woodwork. I grew up in central PA which is filled with great old Victorian homes and this looks very much like the wood trim that graced many of them. The fancy trim at the base of the roof could be carved wood. It seems rather large and ornate compared to some of the ironwork I have seen. Only an observation as I am no expert, just one who appreciates the beauty of Victorian architecture.
I am very much a novice at studying this case, but I must say I am surprised to learn that there was not more questioning of the neighbors, especially now that I can see how close they were! Front row seat to the house and barn from those side windows!
Hmmm, "the person in the window"... maybe they had to stand on something to see who was in the backyard next door? Or of course it could all be a play on the lights and shadowing, but sure looks like someone standing there to me!

Reading between the lines... I am guessing this house no longer exists?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:24 pm

Susan @ Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:37 pm wrote:Eave details include snow guards, snow boards, and gutter treatments. Snow guards are generally used in areas where the ice and snow accumulate to avoid dangerous slides from the roof.

We don't have enough snow and it doesn't last long enough to bother much with things like snow guards.

Right now it's February in New England. It was rainy and probably in the low 50s today. Foggy. We haven't had much snow at all this year. Being close to the shore, the ocean tempers our climate nicely here. Right along the coast, up to Cape Cod, we're still in Plant Hardiness Zone 6, some areas are even 7, same as Virginia and the northern parts of the Carolinas.

We don't have no stinkin' snow guards.

The stuff that Melissa so nicely shows above is decorative scroll work, most likely wood. It was all the rage back then.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:26 am

Thanks you guys for finding out more about snow guards and letting me know!!

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:37 pm

I've been trying to find some similar doo-dads with no success, but here's a great sight to look at some very pretty Victorians:

http://users.rcn.com/scndempr/dave/school.html

This one has "different" roof crestings:

Check out the Gallery and the Corel photos at the bottom of the page as well.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:17 am

Kat @ Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:26 pm wrote:Thanks you guys for finding out more about snow guards and letting me know!!

You're welcome, Kat. Harry wanted us to keep it from you but we talked him out of it.

I love your new avatar. So you like flowers? Everything I plant dies. Ever been to Butchart Gardens? It is so beautiful you will die!!!!!

I have never seen anything so beautiful in my life and I'm NOT kidding!!! Out of this world! I took the tour in 1968 and people have told me it is even more beautiful now. You got to see that place, all of you. WOW!

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:26 am

Cool site, Cynthia! Thank's. I love houses from that era.

I can't see how anyone could get up on those steep roofs without sliding off. But they are beautiful. They don't build too many like that any more. Those were real houses!

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:09 am

I have to say I was in 2 huge mansions Friday night which were brand new, and had all the fancy touches- cathedral ceilings, fireplaces, columns, marble floors and huge kitchens with gigantic center islands- beautifully decorated.
One had 2-story front doors made of glass and a deep mahogany wood with modern carvings.
I think I would like one of those and one of these older Victorian models too!
Can I have both?

keim · Post by **keim** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:31 pm

Harry, those were some great observations!
When I created my 3D model of the neighborhood, I had very few photos showing the neighboring homes, and I see now that I have the Churchill porch, and the side of the house, all wrong. I couldn't make out that the side of the house ran right on the property line. I assumed there was some space between the property lines, with a fence separting. I also thought the porch ran all the way to the rear of the house. I'll have to get it fixed one of these days!

I think the gingerbread cresting around the porch is just decorative. The porch roof looks too flat to be a snow avalanche problem. But it's another detail I missed in my model!

For those talking about the face in the window, it is too large (and high) to be anything but an optical illusion. Besides being curtains, or internal lights, I've found many supposed ghost faces in windows to be reflections of trees, etc, in the glass. And considering the irregular surface quality of glass in those days, just about any reflection would be wildly distorted.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:23 am

The objects in the picture I think are foreshortened.
They appear closer to each other than they actually are.
I noticed how close things seemed to be and asked Harry about it earlier.
I won't speak for him but he did explain it to me.

Here is a drawing in Rebello which will show you there is about 26 feet between the Borden house and the Churchill house. The measurements show as 16 to the fence and I think there are rules which are sort of standard that the next house would not be closer than about 10 feet, so I am adding that info to the estimate.

I don't know if this affects your drawings.

Harry, Stef and I have permission of the author to show his illustrations from his book if we give credit.
I write it right on the picture itself.

Hope this helps.

keim · Post by **keim** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:32 am

Thanks Kat, that's a great diagram!

Yes, the angles and quality of those old photos really trick the eye!
I think I hit the nail on the head with the Borden house, barn and yard, but I'll have to revisit my model soon, and make some revisions to the ol' Churchill place.

Elizabeth Ann · Post by **Elizabeth Ann** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:04 am

Proof Positive how deceiving photos can be. I would not have guessed the distance between the two houses to be this much. Thanks for sharing this, I have learned some new things from this!

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:45 am

If I remember right, according to Rebello the Churchill house was destroyed by fire in 1961. Considering that it survived till then you would think there would be pictures of it somewhere. Mabe they took a picture of it after it burned for the newspaper.

StevenB · Post by **StevenB** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:14 pm

Susan @ Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:15 am wrote:Harry, I went through the photos on the LBVM&L site to see if there was another pic that showed more of that portion of the Churchill house. I found this one from 1910, from what I see, it appears to be some sort of roof decoration.

Yes, thats a cast iron roof decoration intended to spiff up a low addition and give some hieght to a one story addition attached to higher main block/house! Very popular at the end of the 19th century.

StevenB

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:47 pm

What interests me is the roofline of a house behind that barn. Isn't this where the orchard used to be? It looks too far to the left to be Crowe's barn, and too far to the right to be Chagnon's. It also cannot be the house which is behind the Kelly house today. Harry? I bet you know.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:56 pm

The photo is from 1910, could it have been built somewhere between 1892 and 1910?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:03 am

Yes, it had to be built after 1892. This little section of a drawing of the area behind the Borden house shows the Chagnon driveway directly behind the Borden barn. The portion of the Chagnon house to the right had a flat roof. Further to the right, off the drawing, the house had a peaked roof.

It would seem to me that in order for that roof to be where it is, directly behind the barn, that the Chagnon house would have been torn down by the 1910s.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:30 am

It looks like the roof of the house that is there now. Maybe by knocking on the door, the resident can tell you?

BTW: Har, where is that cool picture from? Thanks!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:21 am

I'm not at all sure, Kat, but I believe a newspaper. It was made by a Elaine Alves. I only showed a small portion of the drawing.

There is a similar, but not identical, drawing in the June 15th, 1893 Boston Globe. Rebello has a copy of it on page 47.

There is photograph that appeared in a 1929 newspaper at the time the barn was being torn down. There was a hatchet-like tool found in the wall at that time. The photo I have of the newspaper page is of very poor quality but does not, as far as I can make out, show a building directly behind the barn. However, we don't know when the photo was taken. Just because it is in a 1929 paper doesn't mean it was taken then.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:22 pm

This is behind the fence, but to the right (South) of the barn. The house behind "Kelly's" shown at the top of this photo was built after 1892, and all the diagrams of Chagnon's house seem to show their house behind the barn, but with a very different roofline, and much further to the left (North)behind the barn, not lining up directly. Of course, maybe the camera angle is making it appear this way. Strange.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Shelley @ Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:22 pm wrote: Of course, maybe the camera angle is making it appear this way. Strange.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. That maybe it was just the angle the photograph was taken in which makes it appear this way.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:29 pm

Could it be an addition to the Chagnon house?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:30 am

Harry @ Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:21 am wrote:I'm not at all sure, Kat, but I believe a newspaper. It was made by a Elaine Alves. I only showed a small portion of the drawing.

There is a similar, but not identical, drawing in the June 15th, 1893 Boston Globe. Rebello has a copy of it on page 47.

OK I found it. It's from Hands of Time. Yes you're showing just a snippet. Thanks. It is pretty cool.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:48 am

I like those pictures. Those houses are just close enough for them to be nosy neighbors!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:01 am

I can't agree that the Chagnon house was behind the barn. Their driveway was. To the north of that was the flat roof portion of the Chagnon house. To the north of that was the peaked roof portion. The peaked roof portion was at a diagonal to the barn and in no way could you line up the barn roof with the peaked roof of the Chagnon house as shown in the 1910 photo.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:36 am

I don't know if 1910 is an accurate date for the photo, but I can't date the automobile properly to argue the point. Possibly the 1920's?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:45 am

I agree Harry. The Chagnon House was considerably north of the behind the barn area. I will have to snoop around in the street directory for several years. Perhaps this was a small house which burned down. It would have had to been constructed on part of what was that old orchard, but of course there will be a record if any lot was subdivided. Although this is not a pressing issue- I have a great curiosity about the neighborhood over the decades after 1892.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:51 am

I believe- and Len concurs, these two houses on Third Street, on the left side of this photo were not 1892 structures. The area where the orchard would have been is also now much narrower between the two houses. I would guess some lot lines changed, or there was some sort of subdivision before these current two houses were built. There is now a one-storey low garage building directly behind the Borden house fence, in between these two houses. I suspect we will solve this mystery before too long!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:40 am

The license plate on the car in the photo indicates 1917, 1919, 1921, 1923, or 1924. I can't quite make out the year at the bottom, it reads "MASS.19..". These years, the license plates were light lettering on dark background, and the plates were issued new each year, alternating light on dark, dark on light. In subsequent years, the plates read "MASS. (line or fish) 19.." across the bottom. In previous years, the plates had "MASS." and "19.." written vertically on the left and right edges of the plates.

As near as I can see, the year is 1923, or 1924. The third and first digits in the year on the plate don't seem to match, the third digit looks broader than a 1, so it is probably a 2. The fourth digit also doesn't match the first, so it is probably a 3 or 4. To my eye, there is an angularity about the fourth digit, so I would guess it to be a 4. I would guess the photo was taken in 1924 rather than in 1910.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:22 pm

Shelley @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:51 am wrote:I believe- and Len concurs, these two houses on Third Street, on the left side of this photo were not 1892 structures. The area where the orchard would have been is also now much narrower between the two houses. I would guess some lot lines changed, or there was some sort of subdivision before these current two houses were built. There is now a one-storey low garage building directly behind the Borden house fence, in between these two houses. I suspect we will solve this mystery before too long!

I think that house in the allegedly 1910 photo abuts the edge of what was the Chagnon property, spans the driveway, and a portion of what was the orchard.

Yooper, I agree in that I think the photo is later than 1910 and you may have zeroed right in on the year at 1924. My copy of that photo I had labeled "1910s", ie: not a specific year. I undoubtedly got that from the person who originally posted it. Have no idea where the year came from.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:34 pm

Here's the source for the license plate information:

http://www.w-a.com/maplate.htm

If Shelley wants to research street directories, it may help narrow the search to begin with 1924 and work backward from there.

I'm not able to pick out the flat roof of the original Chagnon house in the photo, although it is difficult to see within the narrow space between the porch in the foreground and the edge of the barn further back. I agree, it was probably taken after the Chagnon house was torn down.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:38 pm

Good- now to hit the library- maybe Michael B will get a chance to check out the 1920 street directories. I am not in Fall River until Sunday and I am not sure it is open then.

The big shingled house on Third Street has a Christmas display which must be seen to be believed- even the ground is covered with white plastic. Today we did get about an inch of snow, which has quickly melted.

That structure behind the barn looks too tall to be a garage or barn of any sort- it must be a residence of some kind.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:51 pm

Yes Shelley, by Michael B I take it you are speaking of me, No? If so I also am not home and will not be for another week or so. I'm in the Florida sun Lounging on my boat soaking in the sun in 70+ temp. at a marina in Cape Canaveral; not missing the snow either.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:28 pm

Yooper @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:40 pm wrote:The license plate on the car in the photo indicates 1917, 1919, 1921, 1923, or 1924. I can't quite make out the year at the bottom, it reads "MASS.19..". These years, the license plates were light lettering on dark background, and the plates were issued new each year, alternating light on dark, dark on light. In subsequent years, the plates read "MASS. (line or fish) 19.." across the bottom. In previous years, the plates had "MASS." and "19.." written vertically on the left and right edges of the plates.

As near as I can see, the year is 1923, or 1924. The third and first digits in the year on the plate don't seem to match, the third digit looks broader than a 1, so it is probably a 2. The fourth digit also doesn't match the first, so it is probably a 3 or 4. To my eye, there is an angularity about the fourth digit, so I would guess it to be a 4. I would guess the photo was taken in 1924 rather than in 1910.

I say the year was 1927. That was when Edmund Peason took that photo for his publication with the chapter on the Bordens. (AS I remember it.)

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:50 pm

Soaking up the sun Michael? Well, frigid Fall River is waiting- we're all in our union suits huddled up to the woodstove with three furry hound dogs for warmth (a.k.a. a three dog night). Inquiring minds want to know about The Mystery House-enough of this wasting away in Margaritaville!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:17 pm

Shelley @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:50 pm wrote:Soaking up the sun Michael? Well, frigid Fall River is waiting- we're all in our union suits huddled up to the woodstove with three furry hound dogs for warmth (a.k.a. a three dog night). Inquiring minds want to know about The Mystery House-enough of this wasting away in Margaritaville!

Don't get too comfy around that stove, Shelley. Has the chimney been swept out lately? A hot spark can ignite that creosote and reduce Lizzie's house to a burned-out cinder.

Have you got hot buttered popcorn along with some hot chocolate? Pumpkin pie with whipped cream? Egg nog? Hhhmmm... I can smell it now! I can be over in say 10 minutes?

-1bigsteve (o:

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

A view of the Churchill house

Cast Iron roof Decoration