Lizzie Borden Society Forum

There are many possibilities for Abby having been "frightened", among them the possibility that she was being singled out as a target for odd occurrances. She was the focus of a "robbery" which took place a year before the murders. She complained to Mrs. Bowen the Tuesday before the murders about an unspecified "they" having taken her front door key. She probably suspected Emma and Lizzie in the key episode. Andrew wouldn't need to be a member of any "they" to do it, and I doubt that Bridget would compromise her job for the sake of a practical joke. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of Abby being an unreasonable person, so a fear of being poisoned by someone could be entirely reasonable. After the events of August 4th, she apparently had reason to fear for her life.

Yooper @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:13 am wrote:There are many possibilities for Abby having been "frightened", among them the possibility that she was being singled out as a target for odd occurrances. She was the focus of a "robbery" which took place a year before the murders. She complained to Mrs. Bowen the Tuesday before the murders about an unspecified "they" having taken her front door key. She probably suspected Emma and Lizzie in the key episode. Andrew wouldn't need to be a member of any "they" to do it, and I doubt that Bridget would compromise her job for the sake of a practical joke. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of Abby being an unreasonable person, so a fear of being poisoned by someone could be entirely reasonable. After the events of August 4th, she apparently had reason to fear for her life.

Good point, Yooper, I didn't realise the key incident was that close to the murders! Emma would have been gone then, unless they had been missing for a while before she told Mrs. Bowen about it. I wonder if Lizzie being unkind could have planted the seed to her about someone poisoning them?

When Abby mentioned the key to Mrs. Bowen, she didn't specify when the key had been taken, but it must have happened when "they" were present.

I had always wondered about Dr. Bowen's seemingly inept performance at the Borden house after the murders and also later during the trial. He seemed to be preoccupied or disjointed in some way. His comment about being "satisfied something was wrong" seems to state the obvious until he completes the statement with "because they were all ill yesterday". Under the circumstances, with two dead bodies in the house, something is clearly wrong, but how do we get to "illness" from there?

If Abby complained about having been poisoned deliberately and Dr. Bowen minimized the complaint to food poisoning, then Dr. Bowen comes to find both Abby and Andrew murdered the following day, the statement makes perfect sense. He didn't take Abby seriously the previous day and look what happened! Abby was right, something was indeed wrong!

His apparent ineptitude is the result of guilt and a preoccupation to cover his butt! If Abby had gone to him with a fear of having been poisoned deliberately, even to the point of naming names, he couldn't let it get out. He would look like a complete idiot, and his practice might suffer severely.

I wondered if he had second thoughts or what might have prompted his following up by going to the Borden house on the 3rd. If Dr. Bowen mentioned the substance of Abby's visit to his wife, along with his diagnosis, perhaps she mentioned the key episode to him and how odd it was for two strange complaints in as many days from Abby. Maybe there was something to it. He pays a visit, Andrew gives him the "bum's rush", and he figures "ok, if he doesn't care, why should I?".

Now, what upset Mrs. Bowen so greatly that she had to leave immediately after Abby's body was discovered?

Yooper @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:34 am wrote:I had always wondered about Dr. Bowen's seemingly inept performance at the Borden house after the murders and also later during the trial.
...
Now, what upset Mrs. Bowen so greatly that she had to leave immediately after Abby's body was discovered?

Is this a question that anyone here can answer with documentary proof?

Here is a rational answer: Mrs. Bowen was so upset to find a neighbor hacked to death that she couldn't stand around any more.
She was not a witness or had any involvement, and neither did her husband aside from official duties.
PS
Weasel words italicized. Were they inept or are you just saying this for some special purpose?

RayS @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:42 am wrote:

Yooper @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:34 am wrote:I had always wondered about Dr. Bowen's seemingly inept performance at the Borden house after the murders and also later during the trial.
...
Now, what upset Mrs. Bowen so greatly that she had to leave immediately after Abby's body was discovered?

Is this a question that anyone here can answer with documentary proof?

Here is a rational answer: Mrs. Bowen was so upset to find a neighbor hacked to death that she couldn't stand around any more.
She was not a witness or had any involvement, and neither did her husband aside from official duties.
PS
Weasel words italicized. Were they inept or are you just saying this for some special purpose?

So, in rational terms, Mrs. Bowen was not so upset that she had to leave when she was aware that Andrew had been killed, but she became this upset when she learned that Abby had been killed? That's your "rational" answer?

I thought she left because Dr. Bowen had told her to, and hadn't she said something that made Lizzie enquire as to who had said it?

Yes, shakiboo, that was my understanding, too. I wonder what she might have said to arouse both Lizzie and Dr. Bowen. Something like "I might have known" perhaps?

I think that it was three things that made her kill. Greed, jealousy and incest. I think that she didn't want her stepmother to get all of what she thought was hers. I think jealsouy because in her mind, I think, she thought that Abby was moving in on familly. And maybe andy was having sex with all the women in the house.

Yooper @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:45 pm wrote:...
So, in rational terms, Mrs. Bowen was not so upset that she had to leave when she was aware that Andrew had been killed, but she became this upset when she learned that Abby had been killed? That's your "rational" answer?

YES!
Arnold Brown, and I think Edmun Pearson, noted the hatred towards this exploiter of the people. "Somebody did a good job"?

RayS @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:25 pm wrote:Can you give us about 6 or more examples from authors like Ann Rule where a female "incest survivor" kills her father and stepmother?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Some wonder about the personality of Emma in this regard.

This is a good example where people see what they want to see.

I'll give you one right now, Ray. One of my school classmates was sexually abused for years by her father. Her mother knew about it, and did nothing. She ran away from home several times, to escape the sexual abuse, but the police always brought her back, and Social Services looked the other way. However, her father always gave her whatever she wanted, and she never lacked for anything. She walked down the aisle with me when we graduated from High School. I believe it was 4 months later that we heard the news that her mother and father had been shot to death in their beds, and the daughter had been arrested. Her defense was that she had just snapped after years of incest. She was still sentenced to life in prison without parole. My father, who was a good friend of her fathers, refused to believe that his friend could have done such a thing to his daughter. However, it was a whispered rumor that had circulated for years, especially among her age group.

Several years ago, she was released from prison. She was one of many women who were released from prison because they had committed murder under such circumstances.

If you'd like to look it up, Ray, her name was Linda Sue Glazier, it happened in Dorchester County, Maryland in September 1974.

Again, Ray, your flippant and sarcastic attitude is offensive. This person was a friend of mine. It was a terrible situation that did NOT have to happen. Don't tell me that people see what they want to see. In this case, I KNOW why the murders happened. It was because a man could not keep his filthy hands off his own daughter, and she finally had all she could take. Sorry I can't oblige you with 5 more examples, but one is quite bad enough.

Yooper @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:20 am wrote:I think what got Abby killed on August 4th was her having gone to Dr. Bowen on August 3rd with the complaint of being poisoned. This demonstrated that she was capable of acting independently, and against Andrew's wishes if necessary. "Summer complaint" was not uncommon and likely familiar to Abby. She did not deal with the sickness from that perspective, she referred to an overt act of poisoning. This was downplayed by Dr. Bowen with leading questions about food sources, etc. At the time she left the house to go across the street to Dr. Bowen, she went with the idea of being poisoned as far as Lizzie and Andrew knew. She had demonstrated that she was capable of "blowing the whistle".

How Lizzie and Andrew related to Abby's actions are anybody's guess. I have a strong feeling that Andrew didn't like the idea of "outsiders" involved in family matters. The only glimpses we have of life in the Borden household are provided by the rare occurrances where outsiders were involved accidentally, or by necessity.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had two personalities, Lizzie and Lizbeth. Lizbeth might have provided a fantasy "escape" from what seemed like endless oppression to Lizzie. It could be that the "Lizzie" personality died along with Abby and Andrew and "Lizbeth" was finally free.

I think thats the reason Lizzie was not diagnosed with any kindof mental illness and such because Andrew didn't like outsiders involved in family matters. Maybe that's why when things were taken out of the master bedroom, and he knew it was Lizzie, he never really pressed the issue.

I'm so sorry, SallyG, about the story you told.
You must be vey angry about that and I agree the *flippancy* would seem unbearable.
Again, sorry.

WOW Sally G, your story gave me chills. I too am very sorry, do you keep in touch with your friend? Was she ostracized too? That is so sad, bums me out.

SallyG @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:58 pm wrote:

RayS @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:25 pm wrote:Can you give us about 6 or more examples from authors like Ann Rule where a female "incest survivor" kills her father and stepmother?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Some wonder about the personality of Emma in this regard.

This is a good example where people see what they want to see.

I'll give you one right now, Ray. One of my school classmates was sexually abused for years by her father. Her mother knew about it, and did nothing. She ran away from home several times, to escape the sexual abuse, but the police always brought her back, and Social Services looked the other way. However, her father always gave her whatever she wanted, and she never lacked for anything. She walked down the aisle with me when we graduated from High School. I believe it was 4 months later that we heard the news that her mother and father had been shot to death in their beds, and the daughter had been arrested. Her defense was that she had just snapped after years of incest. She was still sentenced to life in prison without parole. My father, who was a good friend of her fathers, refused to believe that his friend could have done such a thing to his daughter. However, it was a whispered rumor that had circulated for years, especially among her age group.

Several years ago, she was released from prison. She was one of many women who were released from prison because they had committed murder under such circumstances.

If you'd like to look it up, Ray, her name was Linda Sue Glazier, it happened in Dorchester County, Maryland in September 1974.

Again, Ray, your flippant and sarcastic attitude is offensive. This person was a friend of mine. It was a terrible situation that did NOT have to happen. Don't tell me that people see what they want to see. In this case, I KNOW why the murders happened. It was because a man could not keep his filthy hands off his own daughter, and she finally had all she could take. Sorry I can't oblige you with 5 more examples, but one is quite bad enough.

Good work! I will not try to look it up, but wonder if it was on the Internet.

However, the murder weapon was a gun, not a hatchet or edged weapon. That is one difference. Linda was found guilty, correctly, unlike Lizzie.
Had your friend shot her abuser while he was trying something, the sentence would have been lighter. So why kill her mother who was probably so abused she would not defend her daughter? Strange family.
I also wonder about her relations, church, other people who are around to help out in a messy situation.

Ray...my hell, how much more unkind can you be ???




Tracy...

theebmonique @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:58 pm wrote:Ray...my hell, how much more unkind can you be ??? Tracy...

Just hang around, Tracey- since there are no restrictions re. treating people with disrespect on this forum, I'm sure we'll all find out.

snokkums @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:13 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:20 am wrote:I think what got Abby killed on August 4th was her having gone to Dr. Bowen on August 3rd with the complaint of being poisoned. This demonstrated that she was capable of acting independently, and against Andrew's wishes if necessary. "Summer complaint" was not uncommon and likely familiar to Abby. She did not deal with the sickness from that perspective, she referred to an overt act of poisoning. This was downplayed by Dr. Bowen with leading questions about food sources, etc. At the time she left the house to go across the street to Dr. Bowen, she went with the idea of being poisoned as far as Lizzie and Andrew knew. She had demonstrated that she was capable of "blowing the whistle".

How Lizzie and Andrew related to Abby's actions are anybody's guess. I have a strong feeling that Andrew didn't like the idea of "outsiders" involved in family matters. The only glimpses we have of life in the Borden household are provided by the rare occurrances where outsiders were involved accidentally, or by necessity.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had two personalities, Lizzie and Lizbeth. Lizbeth might have provided a fantasy "escape" from what seemed like endless oppression to Lizzie. It could be that the "Lizzie" personality died along with Abby and Andrew and "Lizbeth" was finally free.

I think thats the reason Lizzie was not diagnosed with any kindof mental illness and such because Andrew didn't like outsiders involved in family matters. Maybe that's why when things were taken out of the master bedroom, and he knew it was Lizzie, he never really pressed the issue.

I thoroughly agree with Yooper. It just makes so much sense that Abby was fearful of being poisoned and she went to Bowen for some kind of help. Abby was probably torn about spilling the beans completely re. her fear of Lizzie (so she said "someone" could be trying to poison them, instead of naming Lizzie) because she knew how tight lipped Andrew was about airing their dirty family laundry in public. Lizzie was probably in quite a mental state by that time, got wind of Abby running over there and felt she had to stop Abby. She probably did think she could have more control over the situation with her father if Abby was out of the picture. But then, when she thought her father wouldn't buy her story about not being the cause of Abby's demise, she knew it was an all or nothing situation.

Who would Abby likely go to if she feared for her life, but was unsure if her fears were justified? It would have to be an authority figure of some sort, Dr. Bowen for instance. It would have to be someone who would LISTEN to her and not just put her off as an hysterical female. Andrew apparently didn't listen to her or take her seriously, and women were not in positions of authority at the time, they would not be taken any more seriously than she was.

I think Dr. Bowen might have realized Abby was right to be in fear for her life, even if she was wrong about having been poisoned. He seemed to fall apart after Abby was discovered. He made the statement that something was wrong because the Bordens were all sick the previous day. He mentioned that Abby probably died of fright to the police. His wife said something which gave Lizzie pause and he sent her home. There is something more to this than what appears at face value.

What I find so interesting about Abby telling Dr. Bowen her fear of poisoning is that she normally was close-mouthed by nature. Those who knew Abby said that she didn't speak of family problems. So for her to go to Dr. Bowen, she must have been firmly convinced that she was poisoned. But, what was she hoping to get from Dr. Bowen, a thorough check-up for signs of poisoning? Some sort of antidote to any potential poisoning? For him to come and check their foodstuffs for poison? Yes, I think she wanted to be validated by an authority figure but what did she expect of him to do if he believed her?

The fact that she ran right over to Bowen as soon as she got up and dressed that morning tells me it was urgent. Surely she had had sumemr complaint before-but this seemed like something far worse.

If Lizzie HAD been trying poison, and her intended victim suddenly went to an authority figure crying poison- then the murderer could not fail to act quickly to silence the intended victim before more could be revealed.

The fact that Bowen went over later to check on her and maybe see Andrew would seem he was concerned. If Abby had told Bowen Lizzie was also sick, maybe he wanted to check her out too- but of course Lizzie zipped up the stairs and he did not get to examine her- was that deliberate? Maybe.

Yes, I agree something odd about it all- especially Bowen's first look at Abby on the floor upstairs and his strange idea that she had fainted or had a heart attack. I would think that would have ruined his practice! Didn't Bowen send his wife over to make tea and toast for Lizzie?

Abby may have been seeking validation to the extent that she might indeed be the victim of poisoning rather than summer complaint. If she intended to go to the authorities with her fear for her life, she needed something concrete. Ironically, Dr. Bowen seemed to arrive at a "cure" for the symptom rather than for the problem. She may have thought she needed backup to appear less hysterical and paranoid, unfortunately. If she went only with stories of unresolved robberies and missing keys, perhaps few people would take her seriously.

Perhaps Abby only wanted to demonstrate that there was a limit to what she would tolerate at the hands of "them". Her visit to Dr. Bowen would have shown this, even against Andrew's wishes. Who knows what "they" might have perpetrated in order to drive Abby nuts? Maybe "they" hoped she would have to be institutionalized at some point if she went off the deep end. It's really anyone's guess.

Ooooh- the Gaslight Treatment! Yes, after the robbery I wonder if Abby was beginning to think she was not mistress of her own home. Robbery is always such a violation of one's daily feeling of security and safety and privacy. The fact that only Abby's things were stolen is pretty suggestive of the culprit or culprits.

Shelley @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:16 pm wrote:The fact that she ran right over to Bowen as soon as she got up and dressed that morning tells me it was urgent. Surely she had had sumemr complaint before-but this seemed like something far worse.

If Lizzie HAD been trying poison, and her intended victim suddenly went to an authority figure crying poison- then the murderer could not fail to act quickly to silence the intended victim before more could be revealed.

The fact that Bowen went over later to check on her and maybe see Andrew would seem he was concerned. If Abby had told Bowen Lizzie was also sick, maybe he wanted to check her out too- but of course Lizzie zipped up the stairs and he did not get to examine her- was that deliberate? Maybe.

Yes, I agree something odd about it all- especially Bowen's first look at Abby on the floor upstairs and his strange idea that she had fainted or had a heart attack. I would think that would have ruined his practice! Didn't Bowen send his wife over to make tea and toast for Lizzie?

Even if Lizzie had not contemplated poison at that point, or to kill Abby by any means, it may have suggested an opportune time to do so. It could be the first time it occurred to Lizzie.

Bowen's visit after having seen Abby seems to suggest second thoughts. If he really thought it was food poisoning there was no need, what he prescribed for Abby would work for the rest of them. The inconsistency of Abby having eaten breakfast before going to see Dr. Bowen suggests that she was over the illness, but the message was still important.

I wish we knew what Abby ate before she went over. Sometimes there is so much acid in the stomach, she may have felt weak from vomitting and had some tea and toast, or some fluid. If she thought it was in the baker's bread- I wonder if she would eat toast, come to think of it? Castor oil is also an emetic given to purge the system. I wonder if Abby , after taking the nasty stuff, did feel better as she said she did by Thursday morning.

I seem to remember pork steak was part of her breakfast that day, oddly heavy food for someone just over the stomach flu. Just the thought of that after being up all night vomiting would put most people off!

Yes Abbie did not run right over to Dr. Bowen when she arose. She ate pork steak for breakfast. Then she went over.

Not just Abbie's stuff was stolen in the robbery- also Andrew's horsecar tickets and cash.


Why didn't Abbie tell Morse if she was afraid? At least that would keep things in the family?

And if she thought the food was poisoned why did she pretty much sit Morse down to eat their food when he said he was not hungry on Wednesday when he came?

Somewhere there is a post containing a somewhat negative comment Abby had made, possibly to Bridget, about Morse's arrival. I'm not sure if it was with reference to August 3rd, but that isn't important. I got the idea that Abby did not consider Morse one of her best friends. Perhaps she didn't trust him with the information. Besides, he was blood relation to "them" and no relation at all to her.

As far as giving Morse lunch on Wednesday, either Dr. Bowen had talked Abby out of the concept of poisoned food and she believed it, or she didn't believe it and didn't care. If Morse got sick eating at the Borden table, maybe Bowen would listen.

The entire focus of the Borden murders might well be that Abby was the odd one out. She was related only by marriage, she had no blood relation within the Borden family. Those she was related to (her family) were kept at arm's length by the Bordens. The fact that she and her family, the outsiders, might someday inherit the Borden family's wealth to whatever extent, was a reality which was unacceptable. The turning point was Andrew purchasing an interest in the Whitehead residence and thereby favoring Abby and her family. Major changes seemed to occur from that point on. While Andrew may have tried to appease his daughters with a similar gift, that didn't address the fact that the daughters might someday have to share Andrew's wealth with Abby. If it wasn't thought of before, that fact was made abundantly clear to Emma and Lizzie with the Whitehead residence.

Andrew seemed to keep private matters very private. This also included Abby and whatever affected her life. Ultimately, she was not a member of the group, she had no blood relation to them, only marriage. She had no claim other than a legal one to the Borden fortune, she was only a pretender. While a legal claim is sufficient, perhaps the Borden daughters thought otherwise. Andrew's marriage to Abby may have been one of convenience and they may have behaved accordingly. While only a guess, if that is true, it only adds fuel to idea of Abby having only limited acceptance within the Borden family.

I think you are hitting the nail on the head, Yooper. I think Abby was the "odd man out" and that created a lot of resentment. I'm sure Lizzie shed no tears when Abby bought the hatchet. I can just see Lizzie saying to herself, "So long, have a nice trip and don't let the door slam on the way out, Abby dearest..."

-1bigsteve (o:

I think what you say makes sense too, Yooper.

John Morse's continued interaction with the Borden family on perhaps a more personal level than most others would only have reaffirmed the concept of an exclusive group. It would not tend to endear John Morse to Abby.

Where is this conversaton going? Not to any solution, as far as I can see.

Yooper @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:38 am wrote:Somewhere there is a post containing a somewhat negative comment Abby had made, possibly to Bridget, about Morse's arrival. I'm not sure if it was with reference to August 3rd, but that isn't important. I got the idea that Abby did not consider Morse one of her best friends. Perhaps she didn't trust him with the information. Besides, he was blood relation to "them" and no relation at all to her.

As far as giving Morse lunch on Wednesday, either Dr. Bowen had talked Abby out of the concept of poisoned food and she believed it, or she didn't believe it and didn't care. If Morse got sick eating at the Borden table, maybe Bowen would listen.

Yooper, I think you make some great points. The reference you may be referring to about Abbie saying something negative about Morse was contained in a letter Nellie McHenry wrote to Marshal Hilliard. It's in the Knowlton papers, page 33, HK023 and dated Aug. 25. It allegedly covers an interview Mrs. McHenry had with Bridget.

"... Mrs. Borden had been talking about Mr. Morse all the week long saying, "now he is here I suppose we will have him on our hands all summer, I dont see why he dont get married and go away"

As Ripley said, Believe It Or Not.

Exactly right, Harry, thanks! It wasn't anything to indicate a dislike of Morse, but she wasn't exactly overjoyed by his presence. He doesn't seem a likely candidate for Abby to confide in.

RayS @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:34 pm wrote:Where is this conversaton going? Not to any solution, as far as I can see.

Then why waste your (our) time by commenting on it?

Well, if you believe the McHenry...there's a fake pregnancy we might speculate upon...

Actually, with Morse being more of an age with Andrew and Abbie, I don't know why they would not have had some loyalty to each other. I think Morse was also loyal to Emma, as she was brought up sort of in his generation. They kept in touch. I never saw much affection for Lizzie out of him. You'd be theorizing I guess if you see some there.

We forget just how long Abbie was of this family- she was in the Borden family for longer than Sarah was. And if Andrew is helping Abbie's family, I think there is more unity there than first meets the eye.

Morse did leave those girls out of his will.

Morse was loyal to both Emma and Lizzie regardless of affection. Morse's frequent visits were the result of his relationship to Andrew's first wife and her daughters primarily, and secondarily the result of a friendship with Andrew. The question is whether it would make more sense for Abby to confide in Morse rather than Bowen. If Abby feared for her life at the hands of her step-daughters who are Morse's nieces, I seriously doubt it! If Abby was trying to get her suspicion "on record", who would be more likely to influence authorities, a visiting uncle from out of town, or a resident doctor? I think the Bordens respected Dr. Bowen, he was the first person Lizzie thought of besides Bridget as an ally.

Andrew probably favored Abby with the purchase of an interest in the Whitehead residence, I expect that was something she requested rather than a voluntary move on Andrew's part. We can extrapolate a secondary benefit to Abby's family from that. I don't think that Abby's family was the primary consideration from Andrew's standpoint.

Harry @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:07 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:38 am wrote:Somewhere there is a post containing a somewhat negative comment Abby had made, possibly to Bridget, about Morse's arrival. I'm not sure if it was with reference to August 3rd, but that isn't important. I got the idea that Abby did not consider Morse one of her best friends. Perhaps she didn't trust him with the information. Besides, he was blood relation to "them" and no relation at all to her.

As far as giving Morse lunch on Wednesday, either Dr. Bowen had talked Abby out of the concept of poisoned food and she believed it, or she didn't believe it and didn't care. If Morse got sick eating at the Borden table, maybe Bowen would listen.

Yooper, I think you make some great points. The reference you may be referring to about Abbie saying something negative about Morse was contained in a letter Nellie McHenry wrote to Marshal Hilliard. It's in the Knowlton papers, page 33, HK023 and dated Aug. 25. It allegedly covers an interview Mrs. McHenry had with Bridget.

"... Mrs. Borden had been talking about Mr. Morse all the week long saying, "now he is here I suppose we will have him on our hands all summer, I dont see why he dont get married and go away"

As Ripley said, Believe It Or Not.

Does this mean there was nothing in writing, just what one person said they heard?

As far as I know, there was no specific testimony as to why Uncle John came by at that time. For business of pleasure? No suitcase or personal things?

Note that some business dealings that could not be mentioned would answer this question.

Feel free to criticize me again, like how this belongs under Part 4 or 5.

RayS @ Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:04 pm wrote:As far as I know, there was no specific testimony as to why Uncle John came by at that time. For business of pleasure? No suitcase or personal things?

Note that some business dealings that could not be mentioned would answer this question.

Feel free to criticize me again, like how this belongs under Part 4 or 5.

Perhaps Uncle John just like to travel and visit at a moment's notice. He may have been a tightwad with his money, and liked to freeload. He might have had some business dealings totally unrelated to the Borden going on. Just because he was there does not automatically mean he was involved. It could very well have just been bad timing.

I believe he was involved, but I have my own theory of what happened. (However, I'm not going to shove it down everyone's throat)

Oops...sorry....I have my own hypothesis...I think it, however I cannot prove it...

I was under the impression that Uncle John and Andrew had investments together. If that is correct how did that get reconciled after the murder? There is no accounting of the girls dividing any investments with him are there?
I am not even sure they invested together, but it would be interesting to know if they had investments together.

Seems like John was a man's man and more at ease with men than with the ladies and making pretty small talk. And that is not to say I think he was gay- just one of those men who are not at ease with womenfolk. I know a couple guys now who are confirmed bachelors who do not want to change their independent lifestyle, share living space with another , nor desire a family.

I recall Andrew speaking with John about the Birch property and other business matters. They were about the same age and had many things in common, including family ties and connections. True, Abby did not have this background and past with the other family members. Being a step-parent is always so hard for this reason- it must feel like being a third thumb sometimes.

I also imagine it was no fun for Abby to clean up the guestroom after John and figure on another mouth to feed and shop for. It would seem his arrival August 3rd was not pre-planned and his staying over was a courtesy to a relative as Dartmouth is a fair ride from Fall River and John had already had a jaunt to Swansea that day on those bone-rattling roads, and John was no spring rooster either..

Could it be damage control which prompted Lizzie to go to Alice Russel on the evening of the 3rd? If Abby went to Dr. Bowen with a suggestion of "I'm being poisoned", maybe Lizzie needed to go on record somewhere else with "we're being poisoned".

SallyG @ Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:04 pm wrote:Oops...sorry....I have my own hypothesis...I think it, however I cannot prove it...

I invite you to establish your bonafides and create a topic with your suggested solution. The proof of any claim is how it is received by the reading public.

Did the 'Library Journal' recommend Arnold Brown's book? Why?

Note that I know little about the 'Library Journal' except for the quote by Amazon about Brown's book.

RayS @ Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:26 pm wrote: The proof of any claim is how it is received by the reading public.

Note that I know little about the 'Library Journal' except for the quote by Amazon about Brown's book.

So Ray...you are honestly saying that if a hoax (disguised as a claim) is BELIEVED by the reading public, it is proven/true ???

We have most certainly duly noted your admittedly limited knowledge about the Library Journal.





Tracy...

The *damage control* comment is interesting.
The sequence is:
Tuesday night there is vomitting in the family.
Wednesday morning Abbie calls at Dr. Bowen's after eating breakfast and almost vomits again.
Then Lizzie supposedly goes to the drugstore and attempts to buy poison in front of 3 men.
Then Morse comes and eats the Borden food.
Then Morse goes to Swansea.
Then after supper, Lizzie goes to Alice Russell's house and talks of poison milk. She said Dr. Bowen laughed at Abbie's fear of poison.

--If Lizzie wanted to do damage control, maybe she should have stayed out of the drugstore that day?

RayS @ Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:26 pm wrote:

SallyG @ Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:04 pm wrote:Oops...sorry....I have my own hypothesis...I think it, however I cannot prove it...

I invite you to establish your bonafides and create a topic with your suggested solution. The proof of any claim is how it is received by the reading public.

Did the 'Library Journal' recommend Arnold Brown's book? Why?

Note that I know little about the 'Library Journal' except for the quote by Amazon about Brown's book.

I DID create a topic with my idea of what COULD have happened...MENTAL ILLNESS....Lizzie hacking everyone to death in a bi-polar rage to prevent them from committing her to an institution.

Do you mean that if my "solution" was well received by the reading public, I've solved the case?

I don't think so. The proof of any claim is whether or not it can be documented as fact; what kind of evidence there is to back it up.

And also, along your line of thinking that if a book is in the Library, that makes it a good book......I used to spend a lot of time in the Public Library, and I've seen many books in there that are junk...on a variety of subjects. Browns book making it to the Public Library means absolutely NOTHING...

Kat @ Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:18 am wrote:The *damage control* comment is interesting.
The sequence is:
Tuesday night there is vomitting in the family.
Wednesday morning Abbie calls at Dr. Bowen's after eating breakfast and almost vomits again.
Then Lizzie supposedly goes to the drugstore and attempts to buy poison in front of 3 men.
Then Morse comes and eats the Borden food.
Then Morse goes to Swansea.
Then after supper, Lizzie goes to Alice Russell's house and talks of poison milk. She said Dr. Bowen laughed at Abbie's fear of poison.

--If Lizzie wanted to do damage control, maybe she should have stayed out of the drugstore that day?

Yes, that seems to be the correct timeline. If Abby's message was a fear for her life, the vomiting the night before was a pretense for a visit to Dr. Bowen, and nothing else. Maybe Abby knew it was food poisoning, and by eating breakfast that morning I suggest she did, but it provided her an excuse to go to the doctor with her fear. Abby was clearly wrong about being poisoned and she probably knew it, so did Dr. Bowen. I don't know how else to word that concept so it is understood, I've tried every sentence contortion I know of to make it clear. POISONING IS NOT THE POINT for Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen, her fear for her life may have been. Abby knew about food poisoning, she knew she had it, Dr. Bowen knew she had it, and made the correct diagnosis. If he laughed about Abby's fear of poisoning, it only addresses the fact that Abby told him about a fear for her life! Abby's fear was CLEARLY JUSTIFIED! That was plain to Dr. Bowen when Abby's body was discovered on the 4th.

The timeline suggests that Abby may have gone on record with a complaint of someone trying to kill her, probably with poison. If Lizzie knew about the substance of the visit to Bowen, why not fulfill Abby's prophesy of death by poisoning, especially if Bowen dismissed the complaint? Lizzie attempts to buy poison, fails, on to plan B, but something must be done soon before Abby can go to someone else with her fear. Abby's fear, if it was framed around her personally, includes the rest of the Borden family as possible culprits. This includes Lizzie. Lizzie now needs to go on record with a similar fear, perhaps more generalized, but encompassing more than just Abby, she needs to include herself in the fear, so now WE'RE afraid that someone is trying to poison US. It shifts the focus considerably and eliminates certain potential perpetrators. Lizzie's visit and conversation with Alice Russell the evening of the 3rd was a very odd occurrence which might be explained as damage control where suspicion for Abby's pending death is concerned.