Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Oh William you are right I see two of them broken.
Thanks, great catch, will break them off tonight.

Is it just me or in the picture that Harry posted is there a young boy back by the side door in front of the garage?

I have stared at that picture so much and not sure if I am seeing things or not.....

I'm seeing the stairway railing for the back steps in the picture. The acute angle makes it almost appear to be a step ladder.

Yep Yooper that is it. In the wee hours of the morning it starts looking like a person!!!
But I see how the railing makes it look like a stepladder or a person.

I also see a person or a step ladder.

It's interesting and hard to imagine a crowd inside the fence and the yard. I wonder if, in fact, they weren't all on the sidewalk or the street. How did Uncle John possible miss even 10 people there?

Bobbie, the street looks great to me. It all just keeps getting better and better. I want to go there NOW!

William! I posted the same thing about the busted finial on the fence- only I put it in the other topic going on this same subject! Of course, my post was much later today but I hadn't seen yours! That is thinking alike!
Now yes I see 2, Bobbie!

The concrete curb at the end of the driveway to the left of the tree looks to be broken or disfigured, the top corner of the slab is broken in two places. It seems to correlate with the spacing on carriage wheels and with the width of the driveway. They must have driven a carriage right off the edge of the curb to get to the street! While carriage wheels are fairly large in diameter compared to car tires, it still must have been quite a bump!

Ok I gotta redo the timbers to granite. What color of granite is the most popular there? Like a grayish or a whitish color or what? Have been looking at granite slabs online and trying to figure out how to make them as realistic looking as possible.

This is getting weird! There are two topics on this yes?
Yooper, I have posted about the curb, but not in such detail as you- on the other thread about this.
Bobbie can we close one of these and switch? We are duplicating input.
Maybe pick one you prefer and we can put a link to that at the end of one of these?

Kat that works great for me. I have no idea how to combine the two though.

Pick the one you like best and I can put a link at the bottom of the other one.

Oh granite comes in various shades-the Borden house foundation is more of a silvery gray. Westerly Rhode Island, which provided the large Borden tombstone and headstones is blue granite, for which the town is really famous. A look at the mill thread will show you some other granites.

Ok, lets make the "streets and sidewalks" the main topic and link the other one that is in the stay to tea topic called "Lizzies house in scale".

Thanks

I am a good messer upper huh?

Silvery gray- thanks Shelley
I am off to find that mill thread now...

Here 'tis
viewtopic.php?t=2390

The granite used in many of the mills may well have been local and appears brownish-some of course as you can see, are brick mills.

Shelley- thanks you are my hero, printing it out and studying all the different contrasts now.

There are some nice photos of the old Beattie's Ledge Granite Quarry here
http://janeconstant.tripod.com/history/phtcdgrn.htm

I don't think the base of the fence is granite- I think it is cement- like poured cement.
Like the curb. Should I ask Bill Pavao? I was thinking of calling him soon anyway.

Len Rebello says it is poured form cement- and that was a common practice to skirt the fences with a cement curb to channel the water from heavy rainfall away from the house foundation and down the street gutter. Other houses in the city on busy streets had the same set up.

Kat @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:23 pm wrote:This is getting weird! There are two topics on this yes?
Yooper, I have posted about the curb, but not in such detail as you- on the other thread about this.
Bobbie can we close one of these and switch? We are duplicating input.
Maybe pick one you prefer and we can put a link to that at the end of one of these?

Sorry, Kat, I didn't realize there was another thread.

It's no problem! Bobbie has chosen this topic area now for comments.
I will give the link to her other topic for people to browse:
viewtopic.php?t=2552&start=0

We don't wish that one to sink into oblivion so maybe someone can put the link back up periodically?

I have decided that Second Street needs some action. I think it will make the street come alive if I add some traffic on the street. So I have purchased three little buggies. Are these correct for the 1892 time period? Also buggy colors, was black pretty much the only color used?

I know there was a carriage parked outside of Dr. Kellys during the morning of August 4th and I could have sworn that I read where the buggy was white. I have searched the trial testimony and the witness statements and never saw a color mentioned for that buggy. Does anyone know if the color was mentioned?

What a nice touch- the ones in your photo above are typical of many types of horse drawn conveyances, I see a 2-seater "buggy", a farm cart and a tradesman's covered delivery wagon. There was a carriage or cart for every purpose, surreys, charabancs, phaetons, broughams. Newport has every three years, Coaching Days http://riroads.com/history/coaching.htm
Prince Philip, who is a coaching enthusiast sometimes comes over to Newport for this. It is really something to see. There were many available colors, dark blue, bottle green, maroon, brown, available for color, and coats of arms(in Europe), advertising, or monograms and such could be seen on the high-toned carriages. I suspect the cheaper, every day sort of conveyances were not as fancy and more utilitarian. Black was always basic for carriages although harness was more usually natural leather color. I recall hitching up my old mule to the horsecart.! SOmewhere I have a page of advertising for carriages I can scan later.

The ultimate was to have a pair of high-stepping matched horses, a driver in livery and a snazzy carriage- Lizzie had all that at Maplecroft. The interior fittings for these fabulous carriages are such fun to read about- everything from a pocket for fans and calling cards to lap robes!

Thanks for the idea, Shell!
Here are some ads from the FRCity Directory- 1892.

BTW: Bobbie, I don't recall that the equipage outside that morning was white.

It would probably be helpful to you to know the names of these types of conveyances, but sorry, I don't.

From the 1892 City Directory

At least you know these are the right time period.

more

Thanks for the pictures and the information. I was really going to put the finishing touches on the little house and be done with it, but it seems to have a life of its own now. Plus I found material to make the grape arbor in the trash can, I am thrilled.

Will you put in the little well in the back?

Shelley @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 pm wrote:Will you put in the little well in the back?

Hmmm, not sure, you think there are enough pictures of it for me to model it? Let me take another look and see if I can figure something out.

You're welcome, Bobbie!

Modeling the grape arbour out of trash sounds about right to me- I thought it looked a bit trashy.
I think it's that little fence nearby and the lumber pile that made the rear yard look a bit crummy.

Here's the old well.
I think the pic is from The Knowlton Papers originally. A Walsh photo from 1893, Trial Exhibit #41.

Thanks Kat, I keep studying that picture and trying to figure out what is what and its placement for that well. Could give it a try though. That whole back yard is confusing to me. Must study the layout more.
I received those buggies I ordered and the parts in them are smaller than most splinters I pull out of my fingers. LOL

I think that is the Churchill house in the background and the well is over near the front of the barn which is visible on the right side of the photo.

Rebello has a good layout plan for the back yard.

Oh Shelley that is it, the Churchill house was causing me the confusion. Is that lattice in the back of the well? To the left of the well is that a concrete barrier or a type of fence?

Rebello does have an awesome layout and that is the one I have been looking at. That picture has had me confused forever thanks!!!!

I "blew up" the well shot in Photoshop and it does appear to be lattice- a very common treatment for the era. Under the porch was also frequently latticed as well as gazebos, arbors and summer houses. That is the fence which is on the property line between Churchill and Borden North boundary. There is still a fence there. Just a different fence!

I love the little barrel in the shot too too- I wonder if it was pulled out to catch rainwater- my old granny had one on the corner of our barn. She swore by rainwater to rinse the hair and wash delicates- now we get acid rain. Ugh. You know, I would not be at all surprised if the window we see in the background in the Churchill house might not be the very one Addie watched Bridget scurry back and forth from. It would just about line up with the side door of the Borden house opposite (screen door where Lizzie was standing).

Shelley thanks for blowing that photo up and checking it out for me. That window sure does look like it provides a great shot into the Borden yard.
It almost seems as if the Borden yard is elevated.
I noticed when I was doing that fence out front how high the ground was from the sidewalk. So it seems that it would be hard to look in their yard from the outside.
I have a couple of barrels to put in the yard, am assuming they are probably brown with a darker brown trim. As thrifty as ole Andrew was I bet they did save that rainwater.

Pettey describes the area over there and does mention lattice, yes.
What kind of tree is that, does anyone know?

I love re-examining these photos and getting other eyes looking at them too!

Kat- Who is Pettey?

Good tree question I forgot to ask!!!!!

Yes, I have been working on that shrub myself. With no leaves it is hard to tell, it could be an old lilac, or spirea (bridal veil) -all old varieties which would get that height if not pruned. It is a deciduous shrub or bush if you examine the base, there is not a trunk but rather a lot of separate shoots, some very thick. Lilacs were often planted near out houses, barns, privies for a good reason- they smell good! My gardening hubby says Rose of Sharon is also a good bet. It is not a forsythia.

Knowlton Papers Glossary:
"PETTEY, GEORGE AMBROSE 1839 - 1906: born in Tiverton, Rhode Island, son of Jireh Bennett and Sarah (Church) Pettey. Early in his life, he voyaged on a whaler, returning to his native town to make a living as a farmer. He married Miss Lydia G. Manchester in 1860. From 1869 to 1879, he was employed as a clerk for his father's firm, Wade and Pettey, Grocers, located on Second Street in Fall River, Massachusetts. In his later years, he was employed as a bookkeeper at the Tiverton Dye Works in Tiverton, Rhode Island. Following his retirement, he died in Fall River. A resident of 66 (later 92) Second Street prior to Andrew J. Borden's purchase of that property, he was in the vicinity of that address on August 4, 1892. He was admitted into the Borden house following the murders and testified as to his observations there."

Ooops, sorry. It wasn't Pettey it was Thomas Bowles, Mrs. Churchill's man.
I will get that info now.

Trial
Bowles
...
1192
Q. How far do you think you were washing the carriage---how far do you think you were away from that well house?
A. About 14 yards.

Q. Would it look to your eye as far as from you down to the other wall of the court room there?
A. No, sir.

Q. Not as far as that?
A. No, sir.

Q. About half as far?
A. Well, I couldn't say how far; but it is about 15 yards.

Q. You have got it in your mind about 15 yards?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, the Borden barn comes right up there against Mrs. Churchill's lot?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the well house too?
A. The well house comes right close

Page 1193

to our house.

Q. There isn't much space for you to see, then, between your house and the well house, is there?
A. Not a great deal. The lath work is on our side of our house. There is lath work up between the well house.

Q. Then you have got to either look through the barn or well house or that lattice work to see there, then?
A. Well, you couldn't see through that lattice work, that is sure.

Q. Then could you see through the barn?
A. Well, how are you going to see through the barn?

Q. Or the well house?
A. You couldn't see through the well house, not very well.

Q. You couldn't see much of the Borden yard anyway, could you?
A. No, sir; not unless you got close up to it.

Q. And so you didn't see anybody?
A. No, sir.

It would be difficult to get much of a view down the driveway from across the street, as there is that fairly narrow driveway, fence and gate in front-not to mention a tree in full leaf, and the Churchill house right on top of the fence practically hemming the driveway view into a narrower vista. But standing just about where that Churchill window in the well shot is above, (albeit at ground level and not inside the Churchill house), the view of the side door of 92 is abundantly clear. The foundation of the Borden house is quite high. Here is Addie's view- raise this up somewhat to approximate first floor level.

This is the angle on the south end of the house, shooting up to the sitting room window from the ground level outside. I am approximately 5' 7"and you can see just how high the house first floor is from the ground-the ground level may also have possibly been even a little lower than it currently is.

Looking at the Churchill house from the side screen door of #92 landing is a clear view right over the fence

View out the sitting room window (southside) at the Kelly house right over the fence- right- hand window-

left hand window, sitting room, taken at an angle aiming towards Second Street-Kelly house now has that small addition or extension on the front and dormers visible which were not there in 1892.

Thanks for the pictures!

I was a bit confused by where you say Tom was, so I will just post the testimony from him to get it all straight and tidy. (Partial:)

Trial
Bowles
THOMAS BOWLES, Sworn.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Tell us your full name?
A. Thomas Bowles.

Q. You live in Fall River, do you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do you do in Fall River, what is your occupation?
A. Hostler.

Q. On the morning of the homicide at the Borden house where were

Page 1189

you at work?
A. I was washing a carriage in my yard.

Q. What do you mean by "my yard"?
A. Miss Churchill's yard.

Q. Did you work for Mrs. Churchill at that time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now will you look at that plan long enough to see what it is and where it is, and then point out where you were at work. That is the Borden house, there is the barn, there is the wall.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is the ell of Mrs. Churchill's house. This is Mrs. Churchill's house and here is the yard. Now tell us about where you were washing carriages?
A. Well, I would be away in here. Right in through here.

Q. In the yard of Andrew J. Borden's house were you washing carriages?
A. No, Mrs. Churchill's.

Q. Well, then, go to the Mrs. Churchill's yard and tell us where you were washing there, and leave the Borden yard---if this plan will help you at all. There is the Churchill house, there is the Borden house, there is the fence between the Churchill house and the Borden house. Here is Dr. Chagnon's yard. Well, were you in Mrs. Churchill's yard?
A. Yes, sir; I was.

Q. Well, now, can't you tell us without the plan in about what part of Mrs. Churchill's yard you were washing carriages?
A. Well, I was between the house and Miss Burt's yard, right between the wall and Miss Churchill's house, so I could see the well house and the lath works on it.

Q. What do you mean by Burt's house?
A. This Burt's is the

Page 1190

other side of our house.

Q. On Second Street?
A. On Second Street.

Q. So you were in the yard between your house and the house next north?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where you could see the well house?
A. Yes, sir.

Yes, that does sound confusing- I was trying to recall the man across the street at the Boston Dispatch who was sitting under the tree admiring the horse pulling the carriage in front of the house- not Tom Bowles. Can't recall HIS name. His angle to the house would not have afforded much of a view of the driveway- I hope somebody thinks of his name soon so I can sleep tonight.

I'm not sure just how wide the Churchill lot was- all the houses on that side of the street did not seem to have huge lots and they were built nearly on the street- Churchill's lot seems comparable to the Borden's in size. Standing in the "el" on the north side of Churchill's house (which is nicely depicted here

Tom would also have had to contend with that big bush by the Borden well house, which in August would have been full of leaves as seen in this photo

[quote="Kat @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:25 pm"]Trial
Bowles

Q. Then could you see through the barn?
A. Well, how are you going to see through the barn?

Kat- I loved this!!!!
Thanks for posting that!!!

This is the best I can do zooming on the lattice Bobbie- looks like plain old strips just like you can buy today at Home Depot


What is interesting in the well shot is the Churchill window in the background. If you zoom in on that you see the reflection of the Borden diningroom window in the churchill window- which helps to fix the height of the Churchill first floor.