Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:35 pm wrote:Victoria Lincoln seemed to think so- and mentioned Sarah Morse had peculiar "turns" as well as the defense having that whole Ladowick (Ladwig) Borden's wife homicide-suicide deal all ready to go.
Poor people are crazy, well-to-do ladies are just eccentric and "peculiar" until they become dangerous. Then they get farmed out somewhere quietly in the country. Maybe John and Andrew and Abby were talking about it Thursday night and Lizzie overheard upstairs. Possibly John agreed, and may have planned to be a part of conveying Lizzie to Taunton that Thursday or maybe Friday morning. It may explain also why he did not seem stunned to hear the news when he returned to the house that Thursday at noon! The theft of Abby's possessions in the not-too-distant past was surely a wake-up call that things were escalating to a danger level. The 1890 trip abroad may have been suggested as therapeutic, and her church work and little side trips with harmless spinsters a sort of method of keeping her occupied and diverted and away from home.
Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:38 pm wrote:After Emma left and had been gone 2 weeks in Fairhaven she tried to buy poison Wednesday August 3rd at about 10:45 a.m..
I always thought it interesting that her bosom companion in later years was Helen Leighton - a nurse who may have understood and sympathized with Lizzie's peculiarities. I also thought there must be a reason men stayed away in droves. Probably they realized she was peculiar after one meeting and could have been afraid it may have been hereditary-thus tainting Emma too. I believe Nance and Lizzie were friends for only a year, a big age difference between them as well. I have always felt Nance used Lizzie to pay some debts and amuse her friends with her infamous buddy. Perhaps Fall River did not want her hanged and found guilty because they did know she was "not quite right" in the head.
Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:49 pm wrote:Maybe Dr. Bowen was burning some committal papers in that fire in the stove- I believe 2 doctors and 2 family members had to agree on committal to an institution. What more natural than Uncle John, as Sarah was dead? Andrew also took some papers into the diningroom and looked at them before going upstairs to his room. When he returned he was soon dispatched! Maybe Emma could not bear to be there to see it- and naturally Abby, being a step parent might not want to be the one to sign-especially knowing that word was out Lizzie disliked her so much.
Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:36 pm wrote:And wouldn't you just die to know what it was that Adelaide said she saw in that house on the day of the murder that shocked her to the core? I also wonder just what Dr. Bowen REALLY gave Lizzie by way of drugs- and how often and how much!
Shelley @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:56 pm wrote:Just maybe that note that "someone was sick" was ABOUT Lizzie. Perhaps Abby had written it to a relative and Lizzie had intercepted it before it was sent. How about this:
Sarah- I cannot mind Little Abbie tomorrow as John and Andrew are taking Lizzie to Taunton. She is so sick, and after this past week, we realize we must send her away. Everyone will think she is up in Marion for a spell.
No wonder it was burnt in the stove.
doug65oh @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:19 pm wrote:The incident you're thinking of is recounted at pg 6 of the Witness Statements: "After leaving her, I went down in the kitchen where was Dr. Bowen, Asst. Fleet, Dr. Dolan, Bridget and several others. Dr. Bowen had scraps of paper in his hand, on which there was some writing. He and I spoke about them, and he tried to put some of them together. He said “it is nothing, it is something about, I think, my daughter going through somewhere.” If I recollect correctly, it was addressed to Emma; but about that I am not sure. The Doctor then said “it does not amount to anything”,
and taking tHe lid off the kitchen stove, he dropped the pieces in. There was very little fire in the stove,and the ashes which were on top looked as though paper had been burned there."
SallyG @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:48 am wrote: By the way....I suppose we never knew what BRIDGET wore that morning, do we?
SallyG @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:35 am wrote:I believe Uncle John's urgent letter that had to be mailed was probably to the hospital asking for total silence in the matter. He faced a lynch mob in trying to get to the post office. What could possibly be that urgent that he risked life and limb to mail?
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:55 am wrote:Another thought- why did Nance and Lizzie part company also? I can picture a conversation with some of Nance's theatre friends- "Good Lord, Nance- that woman is as nutty as a fruitcake! Surely we aren't trooping back to Fall River again this weekend?". Now picture Lizzie sitting on her back porch with a basket of peanuts feeding squirrels and crooning to her little dog Royal Nelson. Animals love us even when we are a little loopy!
I doubt Nance saw Lizzie as a friend....I think she was just using her and when she didn't need her anymore, she didn't bother with her. What is interesting is that Lizzie could actually appear charming and totally normal to outsiders. That is typical bi-polar behavior. The closer you get to them, and the longer you are with them, their mood swings and outbursts begin to focus on you. Nance could have begun to experience Lizzies "bad side" and decided it was time to part company.
Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:50 am wrote:All this time we though the attorneys kept Lizzie off the stand because she was not a good liar and might crack or become temperamental. It may have been because it would become clear to the jury and all present after much cross examination that there was someting just a little "wrong" with her. She also had some of her home things brought to her cell in Taunton- and special food delivered-not your average prisoner. Maybe it was not just because she was a Borden.... the cell might have been for more of a "patient".
SallyG @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:37 pm wrote:Shelley @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:49 am wrote:Children are always astute , if not merciful judges . Lizzie seemed to be a loner growing up, one or two trusted friends as a child. Not popular. Kids that are "different", odd, peculiar, whatever, are frequently shunned. Note the church work as well. If she had had social graces, and all her marbles- would they have shunted her off to teach Chinese Mission kids? Knowing how well-connected her Papa was in the business world, they usually would put such a daughter in a coveted and desired position at church.
They probably put Lizzie in a church position where she could do something, but not be all that visible. As I understand, she had problems teaching them and became very upset.
SallyG @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:44 pm wrote: I doubt Nance saw Lizzie as a friend....I think she was just using her and when she didn't need her anymore, she didn't bother with her. What is interesting is that Lizzie could actually appear charming and totally normal to outsiders. That is typical bi-polar behavior. The closer you get to them, and the longer you are with them, their mood swings and outbursts begin to focus on you. Nance could have begun to experience Lizzies "bad side" and decided it was time to part company.
RayS @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:40 pm wrote:Is there any documentary proof for this speculation?
Then what is its purpose? I thought people in those days had to be pretty far gone to be institutionalized.
Keep in mind that "insane" in those days pretty much meant "suffering from the last stages of syphilis".
That's what any talk about "insanity in the family" meant. They would never use the S-word in polite society.
Also, I read that "bad breath" was the usual sign of syphilis. Think of all those ads for breath mints then or now. Or the older remedies.
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