rgreen4411 @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:59 pm wrote:Castor oil is a laxative not an emetic. An emetic causes people to vomit. If Abby was using castor oil the passage of food through her stomach would have been accelerated, thus altering the estimated time of death.
Inquest testimony of Dr. Seabury Bowen page 116:
Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, with a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want...
Castor oil does indeed speed up the passage of food moving through the digestive tract. Interesting stuff. I had not considered this before.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Not to be unduly argumentative, but castor oil is a laxative and also an emetic - I checked several medical books to confirm this before I posted it.
"The greenish extract of a large tropical plant, castor oil has been used for many years to ease constipation and induce vomiting"
This was of especial interest to me in regards to the many discussion we have had on poison. Castor oil had so many uses externally as well-as lubricant for skin, burns and abrasions, and even used to promote childbirth in a "midwife cocktail". Today Syrup of Ipecac is the most common medicine cabinet emetic for bringing up non-caustic poisons- and it is nasty nasty stuff as I learned from personal experience- it works in about 3 minutes.
Well since Lizzie rarely seemed to eat with the family, her coming down to breakfast and dinner (noon meal) on Wednesday screams alibi to me.
Bence said the woman was in the drug store somewhere between 10 am and 11:30.
If breakfast was usually around 7 or 7:30 am, and dinner at noon, and Bridget says she doesn't know where Lizzie was in the meantime, it's interesting that Lizzie could have come to the table to be seen, and still not have proof of where she was between 10 and 11:30 am, Wednesday. I think it's interesting.
~ ~ ~ ~
Edit here: To add that Lizzie also appeared at supper Wednesday. That is 3 main meals.
Bridget
Prelim
53
Q. What did you have for supper? [Wednesday]
A. Some soup warmed over.
Q. This same soup warmed over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whatelse?
A. Some bread, and cake and cookies, and tea.
Q. Where they all there to supper.
A. Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.
I don't know when that would be. She was at Alice Russell's until 9 ish
Inquest
Lizzie
81(38)
Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before?
A. No sir, I don't remember, because I don't know whether I was down myself or not.
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don't know, whether I had any tea or not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.
Thank you, Shelley, for correcting me. Medscape.com used by doctors and pharmacists does indeed classify castor oil as an irritant laxative and a cathartic. Interestingly it is used pre-operatively and must not be very effecitive in producing vomiting or it would be a very unpopular medicine. See Medscape info pasted below:
Monograph - Castor Oil
Class: Cathartics and Laxatives General Statement
Sections: Dosage and Administration | Pharmacokinetics | Chemistry and Stability | Preparations
Castor oil, a stimulant laxative, is a fixed oil obtained from the seeds of Ricinus communis.
Dosage and Administration
•Administration
Castor oil is administered orally. Emulsions or aromatic preparations somewhat mask the disagreeable taste of castor oil. Containers of castor oil emulsion should be shaken before using, and the emulsion may be mixed with 120–240 mL of water, milk, fruit juice, or soft drink before administration.
•Dosage
The usual adult dose of castor oil for constipation is 15 mL; however, castor oil usually should be reserved for total colonic evacuation, such as prior to surgery or radiologic, sigmoidoscopic, or proctoscopic procedures. For these purposes, the usual dose of castor oil is 15–60 mL for adults and children 12 years of age and older, 5–15 mL for children 2–11 years of age, or 1–5 mL for children younger than 2 years of age, administered as a single dose about 16 hours before the surgery or procedure. To prepare for colonic surgery or radiologic, sigmoidoscopic, or proctoscopic procedures, the patient should receive a residue-free diet one day before the surgery or procedure and a cleansing rectal enema (e.g., tap water, soap suds, saline laxative, bisacodyl) on the day of the examination.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
I called three of the local pharmacies in my area and asked the pharmicists there about castor oil and it's effects. All three pharmacists classified it as an over the counter lubricant laxative. I asked about it's emetic effects on the user next. I was told the vomiting was only considered a side effect for certain patients with weak stomachs who could not handle the oily liquid laying in their stomach. I asked about how long it took for the castor oil to take effect and was unanimously told that it varies from patient to patient, but that it is meant to flush out the system. I was slightly embarrassed because I was told by one pharmacist if my problem was severe enough I might consider using an enema instead. I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
As in all aspects of examing this case- one must consider the era, the 1892 mindset for much of it to make sense. Bowen would be practicing 1892 medicine with all the flaws inherent to the time. Victorians were obsessed with their bowels, regularity, self-dosing, purging, -and other bodily emissions. Some sources I have consulted on castor oil as an emetic are from vintage reference books on the topic, including several home remedy books so popularly kept by house wives of the period. Castor oil was given often as a daily tonic to promote regularity- yes, right up until the 1950's in fact when extract of prunes and figs became the new daily dose rage for over-the-counter.
What is important is that Bowen obviously felt whatever was in Abby's stomach and intestines needed to come out- be it due to food-poisoning or poison. It either had to come out one end or another- castor oil was effective for one "end" and often for the other"end". Syrup of Ipecac is the current emetic du jour for today's physicians to bring up stomach contents quickly when the ingested material is non-caustic.
There are any number of contemporary sources online and in desktop pharmaceuticals which will say that the primary benefit of castor oil is a laxative effect, -and any number of Victorian medical resources which will also say it is an emetic. It is , I think more interesting to know that Andrew, spared himself the cost, drank Garfield tea, which, among its other touted benefits, contained white sage- which was a remedy for diarrhea. I have seen a box of Garfield tea and it says so right on the back of the box. So while Abby was urged to purge, Andy was trying to "bind up".
By the way, that is a very good point about Lizzie appearing at all meals, Kat. In most poison cases, the poisoner is usually smart enough to eat a little of the tainted food, or at least appear to eat it at the same time as the intended victims.
I can't think of any famous cases where the poisoner ate with the victim whilst they were being poisoned, except in the Armstrong case.
He got really really bold tho.
(buttered scones and the famous line "Excuse fingers.")--Crimes and Punishment, the Illustrated Crime Encyclopedia, Vol 16, pg. 1913.
I was thinking along the lines of an alibi for the prussic acid incident- or maybe she really was not there at Bence's store that morning?
With Emma being away, I can't know what Lizzie's motive was for coming to meals on Wednesday.
I suppose there are successful poisoners out there that we never heard of who possibly ate with their victims. If they *got away with it* we would not hear about it.
But of those who have been caught and tried, I don't recall that.
Madeleine Smith- "not proven"- arsenic in her fellow's cocoa
Florence Maybrick- guilty- He took strychnine and arsenic himself but she was found to have provided the lethal dose in his personally provided bottle.
Madame la Farge- guilty- arsenic in a cake she sent
Neil Cream- guilty- strychnine in pills given to prostitutes
Adelaide Bartlett- not guilty- chloroforming her husband
Madame de Brinvilliers- poisoned wine she took to hospital patients to test her dosages and skill
Nurses and doctors who have poisoned their patients, or just any patient.
All of the above, except for Neil Cream and my allusion to *various doctors and nurses*- to refresh my memory- comes from: The Mammoth Book of Killer Women Edited by Richard Glyn Jones, Carroll & Graf, NY, 1993.
Kat @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:19 am wrote:BTW: a poisoner is a sadist - cruel and narcissistic.
I don't know if that sounds like Lizzie?
I don't know if that is true in every case. Most poisoners are female, or so I read. The trick in poisoning is that the victim may not be correctly diagnosed (he was sick, we expected it), and has an alibi. Unless it is a spouse or friend or relative. Usually the insurance policy is the main clue.
See the case of William Palmer in 1850 England.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Allen @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:15 am wrote:I called three of the local pharmacies in my area and asked the pharmicists there about castor oil and it's effects. All three pharmacists classified it as an over the counter lubricant laxative. I asked about it's emetic effects on the user next. I was told the vomiting was only considered a side effect for certain patients with weak stomachs who could not handle the oily liquid laying in their stomach. I asked about how long it took for the castor oil to take effect and was unanimously told that it varies from patient to patient, but that it is meant to flush out the system. I was slightly embarrassed because I was told by one pharmacist if my problem was severe enough I might consider using an enema instead. I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
I hope nothing bad happens. If someone close to you gets sick and dies, a police investigation could turn up some things that you would have to explain.
"Do you expect the jury to believe your interest in poisons is due to an Internet site devoted to a notorious murderess?"
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
I think it's cool you called around, Missy!
I also think pharmacists are really good and reliable sources for information. They have to continually update their training and information.
I poisoned my family once about 10 years ago. Our tradition for 20 years, since my husband and I were married, was a chicken Kiev dinner on Chirstmas Eve, followed by chocolate mousse for dessert. My recipe calls for raw egg. We ate the mousse about 8 p.m. Dec. 24.
The three children fell first (ages 5 to 15) with vomitting and diarreah, within minutes of each other almost exactly 24 hours after they ate the mousse. Within a couple of hours the adults were stricken, but with less severe symptoms. It lasted about 12 hours. The only person to escape illness was our exchange student from Azerbaijan, who told us they eat raw eggs all the time. He didn't have so much as a tummy ache.
The next year I switched to pasteurized eggs, and now I make an eggless mousse.
My kids still talk about the Christmas I poisoned the family.
I can't escape the thought that Lizzie had been thinking how she would get rid of Abby for a long time. I haven't run across yet what others think "summer complaint" may have been, but there are several food-borne illnesses, including Norwalk virus (2-3 days of vomiting, diarrhea and headache - also low-grade fever). It is connected to poor hygeine - contamination from feces to food that is then consumed.
Salmonella (in some raw egg) is bacterial, and the symptoms are similar. Onset is 5 to 72 hours after consumption, because the bacteria is making a toxin. Diarrhea can last 1 to 3 days.
I have to wonder if Lizzie tried for the prussic acid because it would have provided perfect cover if Abby had already been sick.
I wish we had some idea how Abby came to think she was being poisoned. Surely in her long life and in those less-than-sanitary conditions, she had encountered illness like this before? Perhaps, as some have said here, we don't know for sure she meant deliberate poisoning. But Lizzie brought that up to Alice.
In some archived posts, members say that the same person who would poison is less likely to wield a hatchet. The whole stumbling block for me is how could a person do this to her family members and show no sign of emotional upset just moments later? I believe Lizzie spoke with Bridget and her father no more than an hour after she killed Abby, and she called for Bridget within a few minutes of killing Andrew.
For that matter, how could she go on and live a fairly normal life?
I don't think we will ever know, but the posts about psychology have been very interesting.
We have quoted somewhere here already the conversation Bowen said he had with Abby on Wednesday morning- about her tale of knowing someone who had been poisoned from cream cakes, and how he had assured her that if something was wrong with the baker's bread, more people than just she would have been ill. The way Bowen describes the interchange, it sounds like he thought she was referring to food-poisoning.
We only have his word for the conversation and maybe Abby was afraid and said more which Bowen chose not to tell later.
If Dr. Bowen had meant that "more people" would have become ill, and those people would be from other households, how did he know at that moment that other people weren't ill? I don't think he meant other people within the Borden household, clearly, Andrew was also ill.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Personally, before I felt I could comment on what was posted about Bowen, I would look it up and check- otherwise the conversation can go astray.
Like: was it Bowen who said that about the bread or was it Alice? Or was it milk and not bread?
I thought it was Lizzie who told Alice Wednesday night that Mrs. Borden thought the bread was poisoned- but she (Lizzie) opted for the milk which prompted that whole conversation with Alice asking what time the milk was delivered, someone would be seen on the side step as it was light at that hour, tampering with the can. . Then it was Abby Wednesday morning who mentioned to Bowen someone dying from cream cake which had gone "off". Bowen said to her that if the baker's bread was tainted, surely others would be sick also. I took that to mean other people who bought bread from the same baker.
"The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.
Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. " (Bowen Inquest)
"She [Lizzie] said, "Mr. and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night." And I said, "Why, what is the matter; something they have eaten?" She said, "We were all sick," she said, "all but Maggie." And I said, "Something you think you have eaten?" She said, "We don't know. We had some baker's bread, and all ate of it but Maggie, and Maggie wasn't sick." And I said, "Well, it couldn't have been the bread; if it had been baker's bread I should suppose other people would be sick, and I haven't heard of anybody." And she says, "That is so." (Alice Russell, Trial.)
According to Alice, Lizzie then went on to say she sometimes thought the milk was poisoned but Alice reassures her that the milk comes too early -- there is no one around at that time and if something was done at the dairy, the farmer would see it.
From this it seems as though it is Alice Russell who who suggests others would be sick if it was the baker's bread. Lizzie brings milk into the equation, although in a general way -- not necessarily in regard to this particular illness. She seems inclined to place the blame for the previous night's illness on the bread by saying Maggie is the only one who didn't eat the bread and she wasn't sick. (At the Preliminary Hearing, Bridget testified that she didn't eat the baker's bread.)
Thanks for digging that out. But I seem to remember Alice asking Lizzie what time the milk came to the house and Lizzie said 4 or 5 a.m. and Alice said it was light then, and someone could see anyone tampering with it. Can you find that part?
The timeline of the milk delivery is described at page 376-77, first volume of the trial transcript - should be Alice on the stand I believe, as she goes thru in essence what was said regarding the milk. Lizzie put the time of delivery at "about four o'clock" per the testimony. See the very bottom of pg. 376 for that quote on the time.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
Here's the part you refer to, Shelley. As Doug says, it's on the bottom of page 376 of the trial. Alice testifying re her conversation with Lizzie on the night preceding the murders:
"... And she says, "Sometimes I think our milk might be poisoned." And I said, "Well, how do you get your milk; how could it be poisoned?" And she said, "We have the milk come in a can and set on the step, and we have an empty can. They put out the empty can overnight, and the next morning when they bring the milk they take the empty can." And I said, "Well, if they put anything in the can the farmer would see it." And then I said---I asked her what time the milk came, if she knew. She said, "I think about four o'clock." And I said, "Well, it is light at four. I shouldn't think anybody would dare to come then and tamper with the cans for fear somebody would see them." And she said, "I shouldn't think so." And she said, "They were awfully sick; and I wasn't sick, I didn't vomit; but I heard them vomiting and stepped to the door and asked if I could do anything, and they said No."
It is different than what she wrote in her letter to Knowlton on June 2, 1893 (page 227, HK212):
"... Later on she said "father and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night. I was too, but not as sick as they were, for I did not vomit and they did. I
could hear them in my room. I asked them if I could do anything for
them but they said no." I asked Lizzie if she thought it was any thing they
had eaten, she said "we don't know, we had some baker's bread for sup-
per and all ate some of it but Maggie, and all were sick but her. Don't
know whether it was the bread or what it was." I said if it was the bread I
should think that other people would be sick too. She went on to say that
she had thought perhaps the milk had been poisoned. I asked her about
the milk, how it was brought etc. She told me that they put out an empty
can overnight. The milkman took it in the morning when he brought the
milk. I asked her what time he came. She said "she thought about 4
o'clock." I said it is light at four, and I shouldn't think anyone would
dare to come in and do anything to the can, for someone would be liable
to see them. She said "I shouldn't think so."
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Thanks, Doug and Harry. I'd forgotten the part about Alice saying it would have been light -- I'd remembered her suggesting no one would tamper with the milk -- but I'd remembered it as being because it was too early, not too light. I should have checked before I posted.
So if you just read the trial testimony it could seem that Lizzie was speaking more generally about the milk being poisoned because Alice has Lizzie say: "Sometimes I think our milk might be poisoned."
But you're right, Shelley -- in her letter to Knowlton Alice makes it look more like Lizzie is not sure if the illness on that particular night was because of the bread or the milk.
I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
