Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I’ve been working on my paper for my college class and I’ve been reading the posts in this forum and a couple of things came to me. I was reading the thread posted by SallyG under Mental Illness and I also have an article written by Marcia R. Carlisle and Lee Savage called “What Made Lizzie Kill?” they wrote “....in examing distant events through the lens of the present day, we find an impressive body of circumstantial evidence to suggest, in the bloody morning’s work, the awakening rage of an incest survivor.” Now I know this has been discussed before but I’d like to look at this in connection with SallyG’s remarks in this thread along with Abby’s claims that she had been poisoned on the Wednesday before the murders. This is what I’m thinking, it feels like everyone dismissed Abby’s claims of being poisoned but I think they may reveal something.

SallyG wrote:
peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" by many witness accounts. I don't know that Emma ever gave out any information on her mothers mental state, though she was old enough to have witnessed any spells or fits of anger when she was a child, and most likely would have remembered them. "Peculiar spells" and "fits of anger" sounds to me as though Sarah may very well have suffered from bi-polar disorder, which would have been unknown and undiagnosed back then.... we don't know, but it probably was not a very happy union if Sarah was bi-polar.
Bi-polar disorder is very often hereditary, and it's very likely that Lizzie also suffered from it, from all accounts of her personality. Emma seems to have been a very passive person, although she may have disliked Abby and seen her as an interloper because she loved her mother and didn't want to see her replaced..........But let's suppose that Lizzie did inherit her mothers bi-polar disorder. The description of her as a child, being quiet, withdrawn, and lacking in confidence, would fit the diagnosis. Although she did blossom as an adult and was more involved with people and activities. But her bi-polar disorder would probably have been progressing as well, and Andrew and Abby would have found her increasingly more difficult to handle. Andrew seems to have gone to great lengths to placate Lizzie and keep her happy...... He and Abby may have come to the conclusion that Lizzie was going to have to be "put away", and Andrew had reluctantly decided to do just that.

In the meantime, everyone was getting sick...most likely food poisoning from the fish...but Abby was probably so keyed up over the whole impending thing, that she feared Lizzie knew what was about to happen and was trying to kill everyone

.

All through the inquest and trial Lizzie and Emma tried to down play how bad things were between them and Abby. But let’s look at Abby’s fear keeping in mind SallyG’s post. Abby felt she had been poisoned what we don’t know is WHY she thought she had been poisoned or more importantly WHO she (Abby) thought might have poisoned her. If it was in the milk (which we know others drank with no problem) then it could be someone outside the house. We have to ask, was there a business problem that Andrew was having that only Abby knew about which would make her think someone outside would want them dead. Or was there someone inside. Emma was away, Andrew wouldn’t have wanted her dead, that left Bridget and Lizzie. I would assume she would have thought of Lizzie first. If things in the household had gotten so bad that Abby was at the point of thinking Lizzie wanted her dead she could have made up the poisoning attempt in an effort to get Andrew to do something about Lizzie. Which is wht he got to mad at her for going to Dr. Bowen. And, that places Andrew in the middle, first having to listen Lizzie complain about Abby, and then listening to Abby complain about Lizzie. He was probably being driven to distraction. If Lizzie was suffering from some type of mental illness, or if there was incest involved, and if Lizzie was clearly getting out of control so much so that Abby feared for her life then something had to be done. This could be why Emma went on vacation at this time. Clearly Andrew and Abby weren’t going to move out, they couldn’t throw Lizzie out or even ask her to move out, Social Customs and restrictions at that time wouldn’t have allowed it. The only choice would have been to have her committed. This was brought up in another great post. The reason why I bring up the article “What Made Lizzie Kill” and incest is this: in that article the writers talked about a case that occurred in Boston in 1867. A girl there had been abused by her step father and although she told people they all thought she was crazy. The step father threatened to send her to a reform school if she told anyone and at that point she killed him. They note that in Fall River there was a sub culture of prostitution in the 1860s and their belief is that Andrew would not have turned to it. Besides, can anyone see Andrew paying for sex when he was too cheap to burn lights in his home at night? However Sarah, suffering from “women’s complaints” and unable to perform her wifely duties left Andrew with no place to go. Carlisle and Savage suggest Andrew would have been to proud to turn to prostitutes. This also gives credence to Brown’s claim that Andrew fathered a son out of wedlock. Andrew could have turned to his youngest daughter in an unnatural way thinking she was too young to do anything about. Lizzie may have repressed the abused and then suddenly remembered it, maybe in August of 1892, this coupled with any mental illness she may be suffering along with her hatred for her step mother could have led to the killings. Especially if she thought she was going to be “put a way”. What were Andrew and Uncle John talking about Wednesday night? Was it about Lizzie and how out of control she was getting? We’ll never know that unfortunately, but something definitely caused Lizzie to snap. When all is said is done, who else but Lizzie could have killed the Borden’s? I think the posts on metal illness and Lizzie being put away were great and really touched on another possibility in the case. Both Carlisle and Savage note that Parricide is the most extreme and rarest response to incest.

StevenB

Source: American Heritage, jul/aug 1992, vol 3 Issue 4 p 66-73

I think that she might have been bi-polar, although we will never know. As far as I know, she was never diagnosed with it. But she sure acted as though she had it, with mood swings and that. I think that with Andrew wanting change his will and giving some interest of a property to Abbie's sister and husband might have made go buggy.

I think what got Abby killed on August 4th was her having gone to Dr. Bowen on August 3rd with the complaint of being poisoned. This demonstrated that she was capable of acting independently, and against Andrew's wishes if necessary. "Summer complaint" was not uncommon and likely familiar to Abby. She did not deal with the sickness from that perspective, she referred to an overt act of poisoning. This was downplayed by Dr. Bowen with leading questions about food sources, etc. At the time she left the house to go across the street to Dr. Bowen, she went with the idea of being poisoned as far as Lizzie and Andrew knew. She had demonstrated that she was capable of "blowing the whistle".

How Lizzie and Andrew related to Abby's actions are anybody's guess. I have a strong feeling that Andrew didn't like the idea of "outsiders" involved in family matters. The only glimpses we have of life in the Borden household are provided by the rare occurrances where outsiders were involved accidentally, or by necessity.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had two personalities, Lizzie and Lizbeth. Lizbeth might have provided a fantasy "escape" from what seemed like endless oppression to Lizzie. It could be that the "Lizzie" personality died along with Abby and Andrew and "Lizbeth" was finally free.

There is an old, old logical fallacy of "petitioning the principle" or "begging the question" where you assume the conclusion you want to read is in fact the real thing. "Why Did Lizzie Kill" assumes that she did in fact kill, in spite of the lack of evidence against it. Ditto for Bridget.

This seems to be some kind of mental exercise used for something, but not to discover the truth. Agree?

RayS @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:27 pm wrote:There is an old, old logical fallacy of "petitioning the principle" or "begging the question" where you assume the conclusion you want to read is in fact the real thing. "Why Did Lizzie Kill" assumes that she did in fact kill, in spite of the lack of evidence against it. Ditto for Bridget.

This seems to be some kind of mental exercise used for something, but not to discover the truth. Agree?

NOPE!

Can you give us about 6 or more examples from authors like Ann Rule where a female "incest survivor" kills her father and stepmother?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Some wonder about the personality of Emma in this regard.

This is a good example where people see what they want to see.

I have always believed that most murder cases are based upon a simple reason or cause such as a husband killing his wife for the insurance, etc. It is possible that there was incest involved and mental illness but I lean toward the idea that money was the main reason.

I feel that Lizzie, realizing that at age 32 and probably would not get hitched and living in her Dad's house, that life was passing her by. I think she planned to kill her Parents for her Dad's money so she could live it up a bit, which is exactly what she ended up doing after the trial. There was no doubt a lot of tension in the family and Abby's illness may have been taken by her as an attempt on her life by Lizzie.

The lack of a hatchet is not proof that Lizzie was innocent. As Allen and others have commented, it could have been a meat cleaver that was then washed and put back in the rack. While the police were looking for a bloody hatchet the cleaver could have been hidding in plain sight.

I can't see Lizzie standing trial for a crime someone else committed. I think Lizzie did the killing and her reasons were mainly for the money. I think Lizzie felt trapped and just wanted to stretch her wings. Of course this is only my theory, I'm not trying to pass it off as the The Truth and The Final Chapter, if you know what I mean.

What made Lizzie kill? I think it was money.

-1bigsteve (o:

I think it is a matter of personal interpretation only that gives the theory that Abbie believed herself to be poisoned intentionally.
It's more along Lizzie's line to have mentioned to Alice Wednesday evening that she thought there might be poison in the case.
It's an unusual thing, because Dr. Bowen's direct statements about Abbie's visit and her thoughts on what might have *poisoned* her- ie: caused her illness- downplay and give a reasonable explanation for the illness that he saw when he talked to Abbie. His diagnosis was not poison, is what I mean.
Whereas Lizzie does point to poison- milk, an enemy etc.
But if we rely on Alice for this, she is only repeating what Lizzie said to her, or rather her understanding of what Lizzie said to her Wednesday night- and was not direct evidence after all.
Dr. Bowen was there whereas Alice was not, is my point.

I have often wondered over the years if Abby's "I'm being poisoned" comment was not so much directed at a person trying to poison her but rather a poisoning by bad food. Maybe Abby was refering to bad food as the source of the illness and not the intenional poisoning by Lizzie or someone else. Maybe Abby was really saying, "We are being poisoned by the garbage we ate."

Often times comments of ear witness testimony can be distorted with time and/or repeated tellings. Abby's original meaning may have been lost in "translation."

-1bigsteve (o:

My point is not so much what happened after Abby crossed the street as it is what happened before she crossed the street. Her fears, how Andrew and Lizzie related to them, and what Abby did about them are the point.

Bad food might well have been the cause of the illness, but the solution is simple, don't eat any more of it. She didn't need Dr. Bowen to tell her that. I don't know if they used the term "food poisoning" in those days, but Dr. Bowen seemed to focus Abby on food sources. This implies that she had to be talked out of her initial perspective and focused on more likely sources.

Sound's very plausable, Yoops. Abby's first thought may have been that Lizzie or someone else intentionally poisoned her but Dr. Bowen convinced her that it was just the rotten mutton, or whatever. Maybe Lizzie had been monkeying around with the food but Dr. Bowen convinced Abby it was just the food itself. If he had'nt it would seem that Abby would have gone to the police or told others about her fear that someone was trying to kill the family. In other words, creating a bigger stink about it.

I can see Lizzie thinking to herself, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

-1bigsteve (o:

Dr. Bowen seemed to steer the suspicion to outside sources or to food which could have been tampered with by those outside the household. Bakery bread and milk are what was suspected. Perhaps not the most likely source for food poisoning if the bread was fresh and the milk delivered daily. This is what makes me think that Abby complained about more than simple food poisoning.

1bigsteve @ Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:02 pm wrote:I have always believed that most murder cases are based upon a simple reason or cause such as a husband killing his wife for the insurance, etc. It is possible that there was incest involved and mental illness but I lean toward the idea that money was the main reason.
...
The lack of a hatchet is not proof that Lizzie was innocent. As Allen and others have commented, it could have been a meat cleaver that was then washed and put back in the rack. While the police were looking for a bloody hatchet the cleaver could have been hidding in plain sight.

I can't see Lizzie standing trial for a crime someone else committed. I think Lizzie did the killing and her reasons were mainly for the money. I think Lizzie felt trapped and just wanted to stretch her wings. Of course this is only my theory, I'm not trying to pass it off as the The Truth and The Final Chapter, if you know what I mean.

What made Lizzie kill? I think it was money.
-1bigsteve (o:

From my reading of the local newspapers and True Crime, murders seem to arise mostly from interpersonal conflicts that cause extreme emotion.
WHAT do your newspapers report?

But if Lizzie had a boyfriend who was rejected by Andy ("my money shan't pay for it") I could well believe that love and money did play a part. But there is no known evidence of a boyfriend or that Lizzie needed money for gambling, drugs, etc.

Yooper @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:03 pm wrote:Dr. Bowen seemed to steer the suspicion to outside sources or to food which could have been tampered with by those outside the household. Bakery bread and milk are what was suspected. Perhaps not the most likely source for food poisoning if the bread was fresh and the milk delivered daily. This is what makes me think that Abby complained about more than simple food poisoning.

But were any poisons found in their stomachs the next day? The Harvard Doctors did their tests. Harvard Medical School has a long history of forensice medicine, as far as I know.
["Homicide Investigations" by LeMoyne Snyder.]

RayS @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:40 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:03 pm wrote:Dr. Bowen seemed to steer the suspicion to outside sources or to food which could have been tampered with by those outside the household. Bakery bread and milk are what was suspected. Perhaps not the most likely source for food poisoning if the bread was fresh and the milk delivered daily. This is what makes me think that Abby complained about more than simple food poisoning.

But were any poisons found in their stomachs the next day? The Harvard Doctors did their tests. Harvard Medical School has a long history of forensice medicine, as far as I know.
["Homicide Investigations" by LeMoyne Snyder.]

My point, once AGAIN, is NOT what Dr. Bowen found, nor what was found at the autopsy. The POINT is what Abby feared, why she feared it, and what she did about it.

I'd imagine any Dr. she went to would think food poisoning before they actually thought some one was deliberately trying to poison them. They (the Dr.s) probably saw alot of that during the summer months. So, about Abby doing what she did, and thinking that someone was poisoning them is really the point, what made her think that, what caused her to fear that? It had to be a very real fear to her, for her to go to any Dr. especially knowing how Andrew was going to feel about it. Dr. Bowen , had absolutly nothing to gain and everything to lose by involving himself in something like hiding evidence, and lieing to protect a murderer. What he could lose by doing so would be 1. His reputation 2. His practice. 3. His marriage those are pretty big things.

I can see Yoopers point. I am sure that the "summer sickness" as it was called was not a new thing that they were just experiencing. If this is what was ailing the Bordens I am sure it wasn't the first time they may have suffered with it. This being the case I'd be pretty confident they would know what measures to take in dealing with the symptoms also. I think it was quite common for this sort of illness to strike during the summer months do to food preparation and storage methods in warm weather. So if this illness was a common occurance, and had maybe afflicted the Bordens before this, why is Abby rushing to the Doctor with fears about being poisoned? Why didn't she recognize it for what it was, and just take the necessary measures in dealing with it?

shakiboo @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:10 pm wrote:I'd imagine any Dr. she went to would think food poisoning before they actually thought some one was deliberately trying to poison them. They (the Dr.s) probably saw a lot of that during the summer months. ....

That's an excellent point, shakiboo. I doubt very much if Dr. Bowen, or any doctor for that matter, runs into a deliberate poisoning very often.

This is what Dr. Bowen said at the Inquest (p115):

"Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisened. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.
Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said she only ate cake and baker’s white bread. At that time she had a sort of an eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home, and told her what to take; and she took it.
Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, and take it in a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want. ..."

At the Preliminary (p407) there is no mention that she 'had heard of baker's cream cake's as being poisonous.'

"Q. What was it she complained of?
A. She came to my door and rang the bell, and said she was frightened. She said she was afraid that she had been poisoned. I asked her into my office, and she sat down. I questioned her on what she had been eating, and what her sickness consisted of, in what way; and told her what to do. I told her I guessed it would not be anything serious. At the time, during the time, she very nearly vomited, so much so, that I was getting something ready for her. Whether she did in her handkerchief, or not, I could not say; but she seemed to be sick all at once.
Q. Go on.
A. That is all of that. I told her what to do."

At the Trial Dr. Bowen was not questioned at all about this incident. At first I thought it was because the prussic acid story was ruled inadmissible but Dr. Bowen testified before that ruling was made. Knowlton definitely intended, and he did later, to try to get the poison into the evidence. Perhaps Knowlton didn't think too much of Mrs. Borden's complaint.

Now, why would food poisoning or "summer complaint" frighten anyone? The point, this time, is not Bowen's reaction, it is Abby's initial complaint and her choice of words to express her feelings. Why was she "frightened"?

Thanks for the quotes, Harry!

No doubt the tension in the family got so tense just before the murders that Abby felt she was a walking target. So when she got sick she assumed she was poisoned by Lizzie or Emma.

-1bigsteve (o:

If you thought you were poisoned, no matter what the cause, wouldn't you be frightened?

It may very well have been a more serious attack beyond the normal feeling of "summer complaint". If she thought it was intentional she made no such suggestion or comment to Dr. Bowen.

I have had food poisoning in the past, it made me angry, not frightened. I expect that if I thought I was being poisoned by someone, I would tell the doctor that I believe I'm being poisoned. I don't think I would phrase it as "I'm being intentionally poisoned", I don't think I would need to word it that specifically because it says the same thing.

So Abby never made a comment about "someone" poisoning her. Perhaps she was only thinking it?

Getting food poisoning is enough to scare anyone. I once got so sick on kiwis I thought I was going to puke up my shoes. I honestly thought I would die. Abby may have thought the same thing.

-1bigsteve (o:

I didn't mean, nor say, she would use the word "intentionally". But if she thought so she would have somehow conveyed it.

When the doctor told her he thought it was nothing unusual she could have said she thought it was. Like "No, I think someone poisoned me"

Maybe having been up all night violently ill is what scared her, and combined with little or no sleep, caused her to over-react to what was happening, and made her seek out a Drs advice, and when he calmly told her what he thought it was, ie summer complaint, she excepted his advice and did what he told her to do about it. Andrew, although sick also, didn't react the same way, wasn't in a panic, because he knew what it was. Maybe they had discussed it the night before.......Abbie-We are so sick, maybe we are being poisoned. Andrew- We're not being poisoned it's the meat we've been eating! Abbie-well, first thing in the morning I'm going to see Dr. Bowen! Andrew-Don't be silly woman, I'm not paying a Dr, to tell me what I already know! She does go to the Dr. comes back home and Andrews "my money shan't pay for it" is heard.

Abby did not use the word "intentionally", but if she had, it would certainly clarify what she meant. I don't know how easily Abby might be led by Dr. Bowen's questions, nor how intimidated she might be in contradicting a doctor. Perhaps she was used to having her opinions dismissed, who knows? Subsequent information indicated that her illness was probably nothing more than food poisoning, not an uncommon occurrance in those days, so the term "frightened" still seems a bit of an overstatement. She ate breakfast that morning, so it probably wasn't a serious case of food poisoning. For some reason, she seemed to need to see Dr. Bowen about it.

I quite agree- and Lizzie left no doubt about her meaning when she described, at length to Alice on Wednesday night that deliberate poisoning was what she suspected in the milk. I would bet Abby was indicating the same thought to Bowen on Wednesday morning.

Great pains were taken to check the food products, milk, bread, stomach contents, etc. for posion. I am not sure just how many types of poison were investigated. It was no surprise not to find Prussic Acid as none was obtained.

Too bad more detail was not asked of Bowen as to exactly what he thought Abby was conveying. I would have liked more detail about her state, language, demeanor and whether he got the impression she was suggesting deliberate poisoning. Castor oil is also a powerful emetic, given for poison cases if the poison is not suspected as being a caustic.

It seems that Abby's suspicions about poisoning became "our" suspicions when related to Alice Russell by Lizzie. We don't know what Abby told Lizzie about her visit to Dr. Bowen, perhaps Lizzie only knew what Abby suspected, her reason for the visit. She didn't necessarily know how Dr. Bowen dealt with it.

Maybe Lizzie was just repeating Abbies fears of being poisoned to Alice and if she (lizzie) had really been ill too, and then hearing Andrew be really rude to Dr. Bowen she put 2 and 2 together and also became afraid that someone her father had dealings with were out to get him, and subsequently anyone else who ate and or drank what was poisoned............Maybe that was the straw that broke the camals back and made Lizzie take matters into her own hands (or axe into her own hands) the fear of being poisoned with Andrew. I know that's reaching a bit, but.......BTW Thanks Harry for loking up Dr. Bowens testimony

shakiboo @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:03 am wrote:Maybe Lizzie was just repeating Abbies fears of being poisoned to Alice and if she (lizzie) had really been ill too, and then hearing Andrew be really rude to Dr. Bowen she put 2 and 2 together and also became afraid that someone her father had dealings with were out to get him, and subsequently anyone else who ate and or drank what was poisoned............Maybe that was the straw that broke the camals back and made Lizzie take matters into her own hands (or axe into her own hands) the fear of being poisoned with Andrew. I know that's reaching a bit, but.......BTW Thanks Harry for loking up Dr. Bowens testimony

That's a possibility, but why kill Abby? Come to think of it, that would give Abby the same motive to kill Andrew.

From "RayS @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:38 pm...
But if Lizzie had a boyfriend who was rejected by Andy ("my money shan't pay for it") I could well believe that love and money did play a part. But there is no known evidence of a boyfriend or that Lizzie needed money for gambling, drugs, etc.

I don't believe the above quote Ray uses has anything to do with a possible boyfriend of Lizzie's being rejected by Andrew. It was from Alice Russell's testimony regarding what Lizzie had told her Andrew had said to Abby about going to Dr. Bowen when they weren't feeling well...right ? Doug mentioned it another thread.





Tracy...

I guess I've wondered about Dr. Bowen all along. The witness statements indicate he was "satisfied something was wrong because they were all ill the day before". Hell, most people would be "satisfied something was wrong" because there were two people hacked to death with a hatchet!

If there was any question in Dr. Bowen's mind about Abby's complaint on the 3rd, I'll bet it was clarified on the 4th.

theebmonique @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:26 pm wrote:From "RayS @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:38 pm...
But if Lizzie had a boyfriend who was rejected by Andy ("my money shan't pay for it") I could well believe that love and money did play a part. But there is no known evidence of a boyfriend or that Lizzie needed money for gambling, drugs, etc.

I don't believe the above quote Ray uses has anything to do with a possible boyfriend of Lizzie's being rejected by Andrew. It was from Alice Russell's testimony regarding what Lizzie had told her Andrew had said to Abby about going to Dr. Bowen when they weren't feeling well...right ? Doug mentioned it another thread.








Tracy...

You're right. "My money shan't pay for it" was what Andrew said to Dr. Bowen.

-1bigsteve (o:

Tracy is more right than that because she said that Lizzie told Alice that Andrew said that to Abbie....

This Wednesday, when the visit to Dr. Bowen occured, is the day that Morse came to visit. He showed up after dinnertime, is asked by Abbie if he is hungry- they just had their meal- no trouble to warm it up- he says he's not hungry yet she sits them all down and they watch him eat.
Either she no longer thought any of their food was *poisoned* or she really disliked Morse and was using him as an outside experiment. If he didn't get sick, the remaining food was OK, if he did get sick, well...

Maybe Abbie was feeling poorly in spirit as well as ill from the food and wanted some attention, whether she knew it consciously or not. There are people who run to the doctor as a legitimate form of attention. Maybe Abbie made a hobby of that and maybe if Andrew did say that, he meant Mrs. Borden could pay for these visits?

theebmonique @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:26 am wrote:

From RayS @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:38 pm wrote:...
But if Lizzie had a boyfriend who was rejected by Andy ("my money shan't pay for it") I could well believe that love and money did play a part. But there is no known evidence of a boyfriend or that Lizzie needed money for gambling, drugs, etc.

I don't believe the above quote Ray uses has anything to do with a possible boyfriend of Lizzie's being rejected by Andrew. It was from Alice Russell's testimony regarding what Lizzie had told her Andrew had said to Abby about going to Dr. Bowen when they weren't feeling well...right ? Doug mentioned it another thread.

Tracy...

FIrst, you are quoting me out of context. That quote had to be about the rationale (?) for a murder. Mostly for love or money, to get it or to keep it. Arnold Brown mentions this as a rationale for the unmarried Borden girls.

Second, the quote was about paying the Doctor. Ever notice how many people will use a stock phrase? Talk about teaching new metaphors to an old man?

Third, it seems that Andy did recognize this for food poisoning, from mutton or swordfish going bad. IMO Hence to need to spent 25 cents on a Doctor's call (or whatever the price was then).

RayS @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:15 pm wrote:

theebmonique @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:26 am wrote:

From RayS @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:38 pm wrote:...
But if Lizzie had a boyfriend who was rejected by Andy ("my money shan't pay for it") I could well believe that love and money did play a part. But there is no known evidence of a boyfriend or that Lizzie needed money for gambling, drugs, etc.

I don't believe the above quote Ray uses has anything to do with a possible boyfriend of Lizzie's being rejected by Andrew. It was from Alice Russell's testimony regarding what Lizzie had told her Andrew had said to Abby about going to Dr. Bowen when they weren't feeling well...right ? Doug mentioned it another thread.

Tracy...

FIrst, you are quoting me out of context. That quote had to be about the rationale (?) for a murder. Mostly for love or money, to get it or to keep it. Arnold Brown mentions this as a rationale for the unmarried Borden girls.

Second, the quote was about paying the Doctor. Ever notice how many people will use a stock phrase? Talk about teaching new metaphors to an old man?

Third, it seems that Andy did recognize this for food poisoning, from mutton or swordfish going bad. IMO Hence to need to spent 25 cents on a Doctor's call (or whatever the price was then).

You were NOT quoted out of context...it was EXACTLY as you had written it except for the italics.





Tracy...

I worked for a financial institution as a low-level employee. "An overpaid clerk" some managers said to me. Did I learn from their diplomacy? I don't know why they went out of business (sold off) a few years after I left.
But there was one AVP who had a stock phrase for any suggestions from me or other low-level employees: "Are you going to pay for it?"
A quote from another one was "Your idea is no good unless I think of it first". Well, being sold to a competitor was not my idea.

The point I was trying to make is that a known phrase "MMSPFI" is very likely to be a stock phrase for certain people, middle aged or older. WHAT is your experience?

Its no surprise that I will quote Arnold Brown on this (Lizzie's spinsterhood). Brown said anyone not of the Borden's class would be rejected as a fortune hunter. Anyone of the Borden's class could find a better well connected fiance than Lizzie (or Emma).

Imagine that!!! "The granddaughter of a fish peddler would dare to put on airs as if they came from the First Families of Fall River" - imagined quote.
Haven't you ever heard of this in your life? People whose fathers were low-level wage earners were lookd down upon in High School or College?

shakiboo @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:54 pm wrote:Maybe having been up all night violently ill is what scared her, and combined with little or no sleep, caused her to over-react to what was happening, and made her seek out a Drs advice, and when he calmly told her what he thought it was, ie summer complaint, she excepted his advice and did what he told her to do about it. Andrew, although sick also, didn't react the same way, wasn't in a panic, because he knew what it was. Maybe they had discussed it the night before.......Abbie-We are so sick, maybe we are being poisoned. Andrew- We're not being poisoned it's the meat we've been eating! Abbie-well, first thing in the morning I'm going to see Dr. Bowen! Andrew-Don't be silly woman, I'm not paying a Dr, to tell me what I already know! She does go to the Dr. comes back home and Andrews "my money shan't pay for it" is heard.

Don't overlook the physical state of Abby (grossly obese) and perhaps in the first stages of senility. People who are frightened will imagine things that wouldn't happen when they are well. Or so I think.

wow I just made a boo boo and don't know how I did it!






































































































:):):)




:):):)

I was just reading about a woman who fits that bill perfectly......Molly Brown (the unsinkable) she came into a lot of money finding gold, and had as much as any of the women on board, but was still not excepted as an equal because it wasn't old money. Is that what you meant Ray?

Yes. I know of two cases that tell about people who came into money. One was known to a close relative. Their young son came up with an invention at work that made him a millionaire. He and his wife moved into a luxury area. But moved away after a few years.

I wasn't told why, but those who come from inherited money, and a college education (advanced degree, which often shows they have oodles of money). must have looked down on a nouveau riche whose parents were factory workers.

shakiboo @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:50 pm wrote:wow I just made a boo boo and don't know how I did it!

:):):)

:):):)

I was just reading about a woman who fits that bill perfectly......Molly Brown (the unsinkable) she came into a lot of money finding gold, and had as much as any of the women on board, but was still not excepted as an equal because it wasn't old money. Is that what you meant Ray?

That's why there is an edit option.

You could look up the case of Peggy Eaton, the wife of the Secretary of War in Jackson't cabinet. The daughter of an inn keeper, she was snubbed by the haughty wives of the other cabinet members.

Don't they teach American history in schools anymore?

RayS @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:45 pm wrote:

shakiboo @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:54 pm wrote:Maybe having been up all night violently ill is what scared her, and combined with little or no sleep, caused her to over-react to what was happening, and made her seek out a Drs advice, and when he calmly told her what he thought it was, ie summer complaint, she excepted his advice and did what he told her to do about it. Andrew, although sick also, didn't react the same way, wasn't in a panic, because he knew what it was. Maybe they had discussed it the night before.......Abbie-We are so sick, maybe we are being poisoned. Andrew- We're not being poisoned it's the meat we've been eating! Abbie-well, first thing in the morning I'm going to see Dr. Bowen! Andrew-Don't be silly woman, I'm not paying a Dr, to tell me what I already know! She does go to the Dr. comes back home and Andrews "my money shan't pay for it" is heard.

Don't overlook the physical state of Abby (grossly obese) and perhaps in the first stages of senility. People who are frightened will imagine things that wouldn't happen when they are well. Or so I think.

I think that's a valid point too, she could have been over-reacting all the way round.

I think a sickness with a high fever will lead to imagined fantasies, even without morphine. But I'm not a doctor or nurse.

"That is called CLASS Mr. Brown and we are going to get us some!" -Debbie Reynolds as Molly Brown

Old Money comes from being Second Generation. Molly Brown still had the bark on so the Denver snoots rejected her.

-1bigsteve (o:

The Hollywood movie "Unsinkable Molly Brown" is a good start, just don't believe everything. A biography from the library?

Look up Marcus Daly, the silver mine owner of Butte Montana.
Wasn't that where Bridget Sullivan ended up?

RayS @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:45 pm wrote:

shakiboo @ Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:54 pm wrote:Maybe having been up all night violently ill is what scared her, and combined with little or no sleep, caused her to over-react to what was happening, and made her seek out a Drs advice, and when he calmly told her what he thought it was, ie summer complaint, she excepted his advice and did what he told her to do about it. Andrew, although sick also, didn't react the same way, wasn't in a panic, because he knew what it was. Maybe they had discussed it the night before.......Abbie-We are so sick, maybe we are being poisoned. Andrew- We're not being poisoned it's the meat we've been eating! Abbie-well, first thing in the morning I'm going to see Dr. Bowen! Andrew-Don't be silly woman, I'm not paying a Dr, to tell me what I already know! She does go to the Dr. comes back home and Andrews "my money shan't pay for it" is heard.

Don't overlook the physical state of Abby (grossly obese) and perhaps in the first stages of senility. People who are frightened will imagine things that wouldn't happen when they are well. Or so I think.

I know this has been discussed before, but I dont think Abby was "grossly obese" Yes she was a big woman, but grossly obese sounds like a term for the fat lady in the circus. I mean, women with girth were beautiful to the ancient greeks, and there are alot of women who are exactly Abby's size today roaming around the streets that are not called grossly obese. I think her size was and still is exaggerated.

Abby weighed at death 210 lbs and was 5" tall. You can look this up on one of those charts for men & women.

My guess is that is too much weight. Is it a sign of her unhappiness in the Borden household? I would think so.
PS
A fat lady in the circus would be about 400 lbs. My estimates.

Yes, we all agree she was overweight, my point was that grossly obese was a bit harsh. I don't think you can label a person's weight with their happiness. Thank you for your comments.

I think the descriptions given of Abby's size by witnesses, like Dr. Dolan, probably have the most influence when trying to decide exactly how heavy Abby probably was.

Trial testimony of Dr. Dolan page 887-88:

Q. For fear I may forget it, did you measure the body of Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the size of that?
A. Five feet 3 inches.

Q. And what was the condition of that, as to weight?
A. I don't know positively. I should think she was quite a heavy woman.

Q. You can give an estimation of the weight.
A. I should think she weighed about 200 pounds.

Q. And that comes right in connection with this next subject --- was it a body containing considerable fat?
A. Yes, sir, a very fat body.

Q. And how was it as to the body of Mr. Borden?
A. Just the reverse. Mr. Borden was lean: Mrs. Borden was quite fat, fleshy.

Here is another source stating that Abby was 5'3". It is a FREE and EASILY accessible source. You don't even have to go all the way to your local library. This source is just "a click" away.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm





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