Was Andrew gay?

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Was Andrew gay?

Postby rgreen4411 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:32 pm

I maintain the suspicion John Morse and Andrew, former partners in a failed furniture business, were homosexual. Morse never married and lived with a man. His frequent overnight stays at the Borden's suggest an affair. Andrew's second marriage produced no children, a possible indication of a platonic marriage which is often the case when gay males marry. Another curious fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact he wore Lizzie's ring on his pinky finger and had a fondness for poetry and herbal tea. While none of these facts standing alone suggests homosexuality, the entire picture raises questions.

MY REVISED THEORY

Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.

Morse was in the possession of Andrew's "lost" front door key.

The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.

Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.

Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new ax?) and burst into the bedroom.

Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had the key.

Abby discovered her husband and Morse engaged in sexual activity.

She may have waved the ax in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

During the assault Andrew attempted to intervene and suffered a blow to the head. This was a closed head concussion (no blood). The blow may have been accidental.

Dazed from the concussion Andrew staggered to the couch.

Morse killed him because he was a witness. Author Masterton relying on modern forensics places the possible time of the two deaths as closer together than previously thought. I theorize Andrew died shortly after Abby.

Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.

Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.

Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.

Morse had some dried blood on him. When he returned to the Borden residence he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.

This explains why Morse spend much of the afternoon in the backyard. He was stepping on the bloody pears to make them blend into the ground.

When people got to nosy, Morse reportedly locked some of them in the barn. Eventually insects, animals and the sun destroyed the pears and the blood evidence.

I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging a hatchet may have been routine for him.

On another note, I have always wondered why Lizzie was not afraid for her life. If I came upon a dead body I would be afraid the killer was still in the house. Flight would be my first thought. Instead Lizzie sent Bridgett out and stayed alone with the corpse.
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Postby shakiboo » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:11 pm

Holy Cow! That's deffinately a new twist to the story!
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Postby theebmonique » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:20 pm

Welcome to the forum !

A man wears a pinky ring and that makes him gay ??





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Postby rgreen4411 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:33 pm

The pinky ring is only part of the picture. While not unusual today, for his time wearing a woman's ring (his daughter's jewelry) was odd.
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Postby theebmonique » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:55 pm

I am not familiar with all the rules of Victorian style and adornment, so I figured if he put it on his pinky it was because that's where it would best fit.

It's always nice to have new thoughts and ideas on the forum. What books on this case have you read ? Other research/source material ? Have you have the good fortune to visit the Fall River area ?

Here is a question I have about your theory:

Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.

The amount of overkill suggests he was very frightened.

Andrew, fearing for his life at the hands of Morse, feigned calmness and went to the sofa to appear non-threatening. Andrew knew if he bided his time, someone would come.


So, Andrew just stood there while John whacked Abby in the head 18 times and then calmly walked downstairs to nap ? What about Andrew having been seen downtown that day and then there's the whole scene of Bridget 'swearing' at the door locks when Andrew came home a bit earlier than usual that morning...you are saying that didn't happen ?





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Postby Shelley » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:37 pm

Well it sure is a corker. I suggest he wore the ring on his pinky because it was a young girl's small ring and would not fit elsewhere.

"The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom. "

Hardly alone with Lizzie in the house and Bridget too. And of course there is the VERY real testimony of Mr. Hart and Mr. Clegg, Mr. Shortsleeves and countless others, including Andrew's barber who saw Andrew all morning long going about various errands -and that cannot be explained away. Morse also had the cap number of the conductor and witnessed 6 priests on the streetcar which dropped him off on his way back to Second Street. Proof he was on the street car. There was a key to the Borden bedroom right on the mantel-so Abby needed no secret key.

I would think that if Andrew had any such tendencies, and I doubt it very much, there is not a shred of proof or any indication, he and ole John would have hideyhoed to the hayloft, not in broad daylight with his wife, daughter and maid around and in and out.

Pear juice might cleanse bloody fingers, but it does not take stains out of clothing, nor do the cores of pears dry up and disappear.

The visual of a naked Morse grabbing an ax out of Abby's hand and slaughtering her there in the bedroom whilst Andrew looked on is hard to swallow. How did they manage to hoist a 200 plus pound dead woman bleeding like a butchered hog, down the backstairs, through the sitting room and up the front stairs to be dropped down by the guestroom bed without any blood getting anywhere? Remember, Lizzie's room was locked on her side and they could not simply pass through on the second floor. Those steps are treacherous without a dead body draped over your shoulder. Those old guys were neither Swartzenegger or young bucks anymore.

And one hatchet blow did miss its mark- it landed low on Abby's neck-not the skull.

The fact that Abby bore no children does not indicate their marriage was plutonic. A woman's fertility decreases in the late 30's -and most assuredly in the 40's, and 50's. Some women even go through menopause as early as 40.

But there is one thing we agree upon, -Why was Lizzie not afraid for her life and why did she not flee but sent the only living person out of the house for help?- Maybe because she was NOT afraid for her life. :grin:
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Postby Shelley » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:44 pm

Having a good look at John and what was said about his peculiar ways and of his wearing one old gray suit all the time- I can well imagine why the fairer sex was not lining up to become Mrs. Morse. I believe he too was of a frugal bent. And certainly not love's young dream. He and Andrew I believe were nearly the same age- two nearly 70 year old geezers having morning delight before Viagra?- Naw....
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Postby Oscar » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:04 am

Wow, this is a new one, I never would have thought of it. I find it more believable that there was something going on between Lizzie and Bridget myself! What would Andrew and John for that matter have to fear? Abby was really no threat to them and Andrew had all the wealth, power, and control over everyone in this family, until someone saw to it to despatch him.
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Postby Angel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:12 am

:peanut19: :silly: :lol: :roll: :wink: :joker: :thumbdown: :peanut19:
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Postby Shelley » Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:24 am

The Bridget loves Lizzie scenario has been tried on by a few over the years- and I have a real problem with that one too. If Bridget was Lizzie's paramour, one would think she would have called her by her own name. Alice Russell, Emma and Lizzie all called poor Bridget "Maggie". Lizzie consorting with a lowly Irish housemaid does not quite ring true either. Now, if one of the high-toned Brayton ladies from the Hill, dripping with fine silk and jewelry arrived to take Lizzie out in her carriage- now that, I'd be more willing to remotely consider. :lol:

Still, murder and its motive is usually pretty basic- and the circumstances, for the most part- simple. It is fun to see how over the years everyone comes up with the most complex,complicated, out-on-a -limb explanations. I think someone ought to write a book of the most outlandish scenarios conceivable. :lol:
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Postby Bob Gutowski » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:10 am

So what's this theory called?

BROKEHEAD MOUNTIN'?

We'll never know, but most eyewitness evidence would indicate Andrew was elsewhere. I feel you're having a bit of fun with us, anyway - did you watch BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN on HBO last night and come up with this?
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Postby Shelley » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:21 am

Oh, Bob- you just made my boring Tuesday morning! :peanut19:

Of course if it is old Andy we're talking about- it's more like Greenbacks Mountin', although carting Abby up those stairs would surely cause Brokeback!
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Postby Angel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:33 am

STOP! I can't stand it!
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Postby bobarth » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:37 am

You know I always wondered about Uncle John being gay. Never married, always lived with men.

But him and Andrew together????
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Postby RayS » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:59 pm

Angel @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:12 am wrote::peanut19: :silly: :lol: :roll: :wink: :joker: :thumbdown: :peanut19:

This is another example of a "theory" that will never be published and acquired by the public library system.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Postby RayS » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:02 pm

Now how about this one: it was really Abby who was abusing Lizzie all those years, not her natural father!!!! That is why there were more whacks on her.

Thanks to that story about a girl who murdered her parents.

BTW, was that her natural father?

Maybe you should tune in to the Jerry Springer show more often.
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Postby Shelley » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:07 pm

Unmarried doesn't always mean gay- we are just so tuned into that nowadays it is an instant assumption. John was a rough and ready guy- horsey, travelled around a lot, and probably not raised up with the refined social polish. He was also not particularly concerned with hygiene, dressing for courting and being pleasing to the ladies it would seem. Some men are not the marrying sort- and not all are gay- ditto for women. There sure were plenty of spinster ladies and bachelor fellows in Victorian times- with the gay/other percentage at about 9-10% of the population, now- and maybe somewhat less back then, not too many would have qualified for an "alternative lifestyle". I suspect many roomed together for purely economical reasons - and companionship.

As for John's staying with Davis- well, the poor old coot was blind, a widower with one son trying to help out- and John had known him as a young man, so it was natural for him to bunk there when he was back East.
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Postby Angel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:13 pm

Maybe Lizzie just took her gay bashing literally.
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Postby RayS » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:43 pm

Shelley @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:07 pm wrote:Unmarried doesn't always mean gay- we are just so tuned into that nowadays it is an instant assumption. John was a rough and ready guy- horsey, travelled around a lot, and probably not raised up with the refined social polish. He was also not particularly concerned with hygiene, dressing for courting and being pleasing to the ladies it would seem. Some men are not the marrying sort- and not all are gay- ditto for women. There sure were plenty of spinster ladies and bachelor fellows in Victorian times- with the gay/other percentage at about 9-10% of the population, now- and maybe somewhat less back then, not too many would have qualified for an "alternative lifestyle". I suspect many roomed together for purely economical reasons - and companionship.

As for John's staying with Davis- well, the poor old coot was blind, a widower with one son trying to help out- and John had known him as a young man, so it was natural for him to bunk there when he was back East.

FIrst it is not uncommon to stay with old friends, even if not related.
There was no radio or TV, a shut-in would like the companionship and talk. Even today.

If you read the history books, brothels were about as common as bars in those days. They can be found in the classified section of your local newspaper under "Escort Services" or "Massages".
The more it changes, the more it remains the same.

There could have also been a friendly widow or two to comfort Uncle John.
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Postby bobarth » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:52 pm

Being unmarried does not mean one is gay. True!
But being married does not mean one is straight either. So I suppose we cannot assume either way.
Wasnt homosexuality considered a criminal act back in Lizzies time? I know it just recently got removed from the list of medical mental disorders.
Keeping that well hidden back in their time would be a matter of life and death for a gay person.
I dont know it was just a thought I had had about John too.
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Postby DWilly » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:07 pm

bobarth @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:52 pm wrote:Being unmarried does not mean one is gay. True!
But being married does not mean one is straight either. So I suppose we cannot assume either way.
Wasnt homosexuality considered a criminal act back in Lizzies time? I know it just recently got removed from the list of medical mental disorders.
Keeping that well hidden back in their time would be a matter of life and death for a gay person.
I dont know it was just a thought I had had about John too.



For the record I don't think either John or Andrew were gay. I think poor John was just one of those guys who simply couldn't find a woman willing to marry him and as the years went by he simply turned into a confirmed bachelor.

Some people, for one reason or another, never marry. There are some who simply like to remain single. Just like the fictional happy bachelor Professor Higgins.

As for the other side of the coin, I agree, just as being single does not mean a person is gay so to is it true that being married does not mean a person is straight. There may have seemed to have been less gays and lesbians during the Victorian Age but that may have been due to the fact that so many simply got married and tried to pretend to be straight. Back then the pressure to be straight was enormous. That's what Oscar Wilde did and so to did others.

I wanted to edit this in. It's from the Univesity of Texas, by Katie Frick, in an on-line issue called Women's Issues Now And Then. It is just a short piece on lesbians and unmarried women in the Victorian Age. It's taken from a much longer one on women and mental illness:

Spinsters and Lesbians

Spinsters and lesbians were considered a threat to society during the nineteenth century as these women chose an alternative lifestyle. They went outside the social norms of women as passive housewives, and instead made their own decisions. They were thought to be mentally ill, as doctors claimed being without continued male interaction would cause irritability, anaemia, tiredness, and fussing. These women were also controlled by the term "frigid" which was used to describe them. Women did not want to be "frigid" and thus married to avoid becoming labeled this manner (Ussher 81). Those who were admitted to the asylum for being a spinster or a lesbian were submitted to forced marriages by family members or even encouraged sexual encounters where patients were sexually abused or raped under the care of their doctors (Ussher 81). It was assumed these women could be cured by repeated sexual interaction with men.
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Postby Yooper » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:09 pm

WOW!! And all this time I thought it was a murder/suicide! Sure had me fooled!
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Postby Kat » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:12 am

It's still not clear whether Andrew wore Lizzie's ring.
He may have been buried with it on, but I think Emma is the one who thinks that? The undertaker doesn't even remember!
As for Morse on the train returning to the Borden house, it was six priests as the alibi but not the combination of that and the conductors cap.We need to forget the conductor's cap. That is not proved.

The barber, LeDuc did not "testify" to seeing Andrew. The newspapers said Andrew was shaved that day.
____

Why would Morse go all the way back to the Emery's? It was a mile and a quarter I believe. How much time would that take? That was not his niece that we know of whose home that was- his niece, and nephew were visiting at that house from Minnesota.
Mr. Emery was an overseer at the Hargraves Mill just near his home. I think he would have known if his clocks had been tampered with. Also the lady who lived upstairs verified Mrs. Emery's recollections of the timing of Morse's visit there and Mrs. Emery left as soon as Morse did to do her dinner shopping and knew the time then, as she was watching the clock to get dinner ready on time.
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:34 am

Mrs Borden was killed in the guest bedroom. I never suggested the murderer moved the body.
The 1.25 mile trip to the Emery's house would take only a few minutes on a bicycle. I agree is is hard to picture Andrew standing by while Morse slew Abbie. Still he may have been in a state of shock and it may have happened quickly. I did not say Andrew then went to take a nap. I suggested Andrew feigned calmness hoping to buy time to save his life. Still as a woman the most damning evidence against Lizzie in my mind is the fact she did not flee the house. Why did she not fear for her life?
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Postby Shelley » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:03 am

You must excuse us rgreen 4411- we have to argue every point you see- it is the nature of the detecting beast.

So you say now that Andrew decided to rendez-vous with John up in the guestroom. Abby had already made up the bed earlier that morning. How do you explain Andrew letting John out the front door about 8:45, after breakfast? Did John run around to the front door, past Abby, Bridget and maybe Lizzie coming downstairs and Andrew let him in again?

I also think you need a motive. First- why would Abby blab such a thing to anyone- she seemed not to have many friends, and if she did it would be her word against John and Andrew's. Does not seem much of a motive for murder. Also, Abby would have to have discovered the men on her clean sheets in flagrante delecto -trot down the cellar to get a hatchet (which actually only does take a minute) and trot back upstairs to brandish it at them with fury. Abby was about 5'3", over 200 pounds, and I suspect not too light on her feet. Her personality description- such little as we have from friends, does not seem to indicate she was of an aggressive nature- but rather a patient and long-suffering soul. It's more than a stretch to swallow this scenario for me.
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:33 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:34 am wrote:Mrs Borden was killed in the guest bedroom. I never suggested the murderer moved the body.
The 1.25 mile trip to the Emery's house would take only a few minutes on a bicycle. I agree is is hard to picture Andrew standing by while Morse slew Abbie. Still he may have been in a state of shock and it may have happened quickly. I did not say Andrew then went to take a nap. I suggested Andrew feigned calmness hoping to buy time to save his life. Still as a woman the most damning evidence against Lizzie in my mind is the fact she did not flee the house. Why did she not fear for her life?


By chance, can you cite any of the source documents, or Rebello, for information that supports your theory ?





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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:34 pm

Please re-read my scenario. I suggest Abbie heard sounds in the guest bedroom. Suspecting an intruder she armed herself and entered the guest room. She may have merely appeared threatening to morse. Morse panicked and attacked.
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:35 pm

If Abbie had already made up the be in the guest room earlier that day why was she in the room?
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Postby Yooper » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:50 pm

There were several people who saw and spoke to Andrew that morning, and Bridget let him in the front door. This establishes a rough timeline. When do you suggest that this scenario between John, Andrew, and Abby happened?
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:51 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:34 pm wrote:Please re-read my scenario. I suggest Abbie heard sounds in the guest bedroom. Suspecting an intruder she armed herself and entered the guest room. She may have merely appeared threatening to morse. Morse panicked and attacked.


Asking for citations is a commonly accepted & appropriate practice, and is not meant as a put-down or insult. Maybe it would helps us to understand where you are coming from if you can tell us what documented sources you used to come up with your theory. The source documents are generally accepted as being the most accurate. Rebello's Lizzie Borden: Past and Present is also very highly recommended. I guess the Knowlton Papers would be as well.

Let us know ?





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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:03 pm

Shelley @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:24 am wrote:...
Still, murder and its motive is usually pretty basic- and the circumstances, for the most part- simple. It is fun to see how over the years everyone comes up with the most complex,complicated, out-on-a -limb explanations. I think someone ought to write a book of the most outlandish scenarios conceivable. :lol:

LeMoyne Snyder's book says most murders are done by ordinary citizens, unlike theft, burglary, or robbery. The murder of a spouse usually means the remaining spouse is the prime suspect, or someone else living or visiting in the house. Your home is the most likely place for a violent murder, contrary to any assumptions you may have.

Others note that murders are done for sex (lust) or money, to get it or to keep it. You should all know that if you did your homework. Various books on true crime, etc.
Arnold Brown alone (?) placed an economic basis for the Borden Murders (the lack of an inheritance in the will). Yet a killing over an unmade will means no inheritance. THAT is why I based Part 4 on an unpaid debt. You can find many examples of this, from Drs. Parkman and Webster to the present day.

I except the British murder mysteries, taking place in a country home, based on some emotional problem or revenge. Raymond Chandler's essay "The Simple Art of Murder" provides a correction to the elaborate puzzle type of murder mystery.
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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:09 pm

Those who have read a book or two about this case will have known the following.
1. Uncle John left about 8:30 am and could account for his whereabouts, or alibi (someplace else) until he returned about noon.
2. Andy left the house about 9:15 am and his movements are known to his return about 10:45.
3. Only Abby, Bridget, and Lizzie were alone in the house during that time. (Plus the Secret Visitor or Intruder who did the murders. Yes, some may doubt this correct conclusion, I'm sorry for them.)
4. Only the known survivors could have done the murders, but there was no direct evidence against them. Bridget was not a suspect after the first few hours. Edward Radin's book not withstanding. Lizzie only became a suspect after the police could get nothing from her.

5. After the verdict Lizzie fell into disfavor after the 'Providence Journal' asked "Why Won't She Speak Out" given she could not be charged with the murder (double jeopardy). Yes, they knew or suspected that Lizzie knew more and didn't tell. Which is what other books says too.

I wonder who will disagree with the important points?
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:16 pm

There are SEVERAL threads going with Brown as a topic. PLEASE leave him out of this one.





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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:30 pm

theebmonique @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:16 pm wrote:There are SEVERAL threads going with Brown as a topic. PLEASE leave him out of this one.

Tracy

But don't other books make this point? Robert Sullivan, Edward Radin, ect?
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:35 pm

RayS @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:30 pm wrote:
theebmonique @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:16 pm wrote:There are SEVERAL threads going with Brown as a topic. PLEASE leave him out of this one.

Tracy

But don't other books make this point? Robert Sullivan, Edward Radin, ect?


I am only referring to Brown, as I stated, and you know exactly why.





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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:35 pm

Has anyone posted a bibliography of all of the books on the Borden murders. I thought I had read them all. The most recent is "Lizzie Didn't Do It" One other book named Lizzie's sister Emma as the culprit claiming she snuck back into town undetected.
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:38 pm

There have been books since Masterson.





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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:40 pm

Bad debt as a motive for murder? But why kill Abbie also? And kill her first? The amount of overkill suggests anger, fear or insanity. Who would bear such fierce emotion towards both of them? Also it was a very hot day. Any sensible person would do as little as possible and save the aerobic ax swinging for cooler weather. Imagine life without electric fans and air conditioning?
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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:41 pm

If you access the www.amazon.com site, you can type in 'lizzie borden' or 'borden murders' and then see what results.

You are free to browse the reviews, they will vary as to book. They will give you an idea of what to expect.

Your public library will also have books on this topic. But not everything ever published.
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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:42 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:40 pm wrote:Bad debt as a motive for murder? But why kill Abbie also? And kill her first? The amount of overkill suggests anger, fear or insanity. Who would bear such fierce emotion towards both of them? Also it was a very hot day. Any sensible person would do as little as possible and save the aerobic ax swinging for cooler weather. Imagine life without electric fans and air conditioning?

You have posted to the wrong topic.

Anyway, you are wrong about the heat. It is a well-known fact that crimes like murder increase as you drop below the Canadian border. The states along the Gulf Coast have always had a higher rate of murder since they began collecting statistics over a century ago. This also applies to northern states during the summer.

Didn't Montesquiou mention the effects of climat in one of his books?
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:44 pm

Thank you Tracey! I will do my homework and read some more. Any suggestions?
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
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Postby bobarth » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:46 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:40 pm wrote:Bad debt as a motive for murder? But why kill Abbie also? And kill her first? The amount of overkill suggests anger, fear or insanity. Who would bear such fierce emotion towards both of them? Also it was a very hot day. Any sensible person would do as little as possible and save the aerobic ax swinging for cooler weather. Imagine life without electric fans and air conditioning?


Hi rgreen4411 welcome to the forum and thanks for giving us something new to fuss, muss, discuss, and cuss over.
Others members here have found the weather reports for August 4,1892 and the temperature was in the upper 70's that day. Our own William did an excellent article in a Lizzie Borden Quarterly about the weather reports.
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Postby RayS » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:46 pm

David Kent's "Forty Whacks" is the one best book on this case.
The opening chapters of Masterton recapitulate this case.

Then you can choose for yourself. Do NOT try the Trial Transcript first, or just any book based on newspaper reports. IMO
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:48 pm

Yes, you are right about the heat and crime. But many on those crimes are with guns and do not require the energy expenditure of a double ax slaying.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:48 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:40 pm wrote:Bad debt as a motive for murder? But why kill Abbie also? And kill her first? The amount of overkill suggests anger, fear or insanity. Who would bear such fierce emotion towards both of them? Also it was a very hot day. Any sensible person would do as little as possible and save the aerobic ax swinging for cooler weather. Imagine life without electric fans and air conditioning?


I am not sure if you have had the chance to read my post about what your sources (specific if possible) are for your idea/theory. It would be truly interesting to know why you think what you think. Many of the source documents can be downloaded for free at:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieABorden.htm





Tracy...
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:54 pm

I did read your post requesting references and apologize for not responding more promptly. My theory however flawed is purely original. Thus I am not quoting any author. Like a jugsaw puzzle I am just offering one possible piece that might fit in. If Andrew and Morse were deceiving Abbie even in her own home and she found out how would that play out?
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:58 pm

Why do I suspect Andrew was gay? Does a heterosexual millionaire male marry a two hundred pound female? Have no children with her? Wear female jewelry on his pinky finger? Have a frequent overnight single male guest like Morse in his home?
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
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Postby theebmonique » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:34 pm

rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:58 pm wrote:Why do I suspect Andrew was gay? Does a heterosexual millionaire male marry a two hundred pound female? Have no children with her? Wear female jewelry on his pinky finger? Have a frequent overnight single male guest like Morse in his home?


Hmmm...because a rich guy marries a fat chick...they have no kids (I believe for the times, Andrew & Abby would have been considered 'older' and not really 'needing' children, particularly since Andrew already had his girls)...his late wife's brother visits now and then (maybe to see his neices/discuss business with Andrew)...for me that does not add up to thinking someone may be gay. Even the pinky ring doesn't sway me. It was a gift from Lizzie...a momento of a daughter's love for her father.

I think if Andrew were to have had a romantic liason with another man OR woman, he would have not been dumb enough to have it occur in his own home.





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Postby Shelley » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:19 pm

"Why do I suspect Andrew was gay? Does a heterosexual millionaire male marry a two hundred pound female? Have no children with her? Wear female jewelry on his pinky finger? Have a frequent overnight single male guest like Morse in his home?"

Stereotyping can be a dangerous game- for it is so often wrong. When Andrew married Abby, she was not a "fat chick". Check out some earlier photos of her here on the website under photogalleries. She may have not been able to bear children- that is not at all uncommon. Childlessness does not imply lack of sexual activity or mutual affection. Morse rarely visited and wrote to Emma a few times but did not seem particularly close to anyone else in the family. Emma seemed to rather like him and called him "Dear Uncle".

I wear my Dad's old college ring on my midddle finger because it is too big for any other finger- and I am not a lesbian.

In the days of travel by carriage or horseback, it is not in the least unusual to have a guest from a distance- most especially a relative to stay the night. I always believed the guestroom was a bit of a sore point with Lizzie. I suspect she wondered why it could not be her room, but it was kept aside for guests and relatives who visited. If you want a real scandal- think about Morse staying upstairs on the third floor where Bridget slept. His little room up there was inches from Bridget's. I imagine they could hear each other turn over in bed the walls are so close.

Abby went upstairs a second time to put the small pillows on the foot of the bed and work on some pillow slips. If she had heard alarming noises of a possible intruder, I would think she would tell Bridget or Lizzie to get a policeman and get out of the house- not attempt to beat them up herself.
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Postby rgreen4411 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:26 pm

With limited birth control options in those days heterosexual marriages usually produced kids. People could not just elect to be childless unless they chose to be celibate. The pinky ring alone is not so odd, but with the whole picture I still suspect Andrew was not what he seemed.
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