Has this ever been addressed?

[snokkums]

I was just curious. Why did Lizzie and Emma insist on calling Bridget Maggie? What was the reasoning behind this? We they just bad with names? Or just really care what her name was?

[kssunflower]

I always thought it was because their previous servant's name was Maggie, but I'm not sure.

[mbhenty]

:smile:

Yes, I am not sure myself why she was called Maggie.

But, we must be careful to what the truth is and we must search back and find a reliable source, not, not, NOT just what someone wrote, no matter how famous or knowledgeable they may appear.

I would need to do some research to determine whether the reason they called Bridget / Maggie was because it was the name of the last maid. Is this true?

While on the stand Bridget admitted that the family called her Maggie.......but not why.

In book form (Not sure what sort of information can be found in the newspaper of the day or even how reliable it could be.) the first appearance or mention of the name Maggie being the name of a previous maid was introduced by Edmund Pearson in his "Trial of Lizzie Borden" book back in the 30s. Edwin Porter does not mention any previous maids. Where did Peason get his source for this bit of info.?

All we know is that Bridget was called Maggie. The truth behind why the Bordens called Bridget Maggie or where she got the name is something I will need to research.

Most probably anything written by an author in a book, or a pressman in a newspaper is only speculation, conjecture, hearsay or just fabrication.

[Fargo]

It was asked somewhere here before, as to why Bridget was called Maggie.

It has been said in some books that Maggie was the name of a former maid. So when this question was asked before, I rushed to my copy of the trial transcript with Bridget's testimony in it.

I had read so many writings about a former maid named Maggie, that I was sure I was going to find Bridget mentioning about another maid named Maggie, but it was not there. All the writings about it and there is nothing about it in Bridget's testimony.

I even read something that said that Bridget was called Maggie because that was what Irish maids in that time were called. I wish I could remember what book it was now.

Bridget did say that only Lizzie and Emma called her Maggie.

I wonder if Bridget's room on the 3rd floor will ever be refered to as Maggie's room ?

[Harry]

George Quigley, the former head of TILBA, wrote an article in the 1995 Fall/Winter issue of the LBQ titled ""Will the REAL Bridget Sullivan please stand up!" In that article he has these lines:

"The Borden cook, Bridget Margaret Sullivan - known as "Brigie" or "Maggie" to her friends and family – from Alliheres Mines, County Cork, Ireland, lived the rest of her life in the state of Montana."

Maggie is an apparent corruption of Margaret. I know my mother, whose name was Margaret, disliked it when she was called Maggie. My mother was of Irish/German descent.

[mbhenty]

Yes, that is interesting Harry. Thanks for the info.

But let's look at this.

How did Mr. Quigley know Bridget's middle name was Margaret?

I imagine it is very unusual for a Christian to be named back then without a middle name. Especially someone with two very common names. If in fact her middle name was "Margaret" that would be a great detail.

But, if you search you will not find any official proof. When Bridget lists her name in court she does not give a middle name or initial.

According to Rebello, ATR (who strives to be accurate) there is no proof of a middle name in immigration records.

ATR there is no proof of a middle name in her marriage certificate.

ATR there is no proof of a middle name on her death certificate.

There is no middle initial on her grave stone.

So, did Mr Quigley assume? Flex supposition? An exercise in embellishment? Did Mr. Quigley succumb to the same trap or licit deception practiced by Spiering, Lincoln and Brown?

There is one interesting Note and one that may give hints or lend to assumption. Bridget's mother's name was Margaret.



.

[Kat]

It's a good question.
And I had found something on this earlier last July.
Admittedly, it is from a "term paper" site. Buyer beware

http://www.collegetermpapers.com/TermPa ... 1880.shtml


“Unlike the other culture groups in America among the Irish there were more women than men. In Ireland women had often postponed marriage in order to work, because of the need for money for families. Because of this, many young Irish women had the freedom and money to make the journey to America.

Once in America, Irish women did the same things as if they had never left Ireland. They were the group that stayed single the longest. These young women could always find jobs as domestics, an occupation rejected by many other ethnic groups. In fact, the figure of the obstinate Irish maid "Bridget" became an ethnic stereotype that lingered well into the twentieth Century (Anderson 59).

Historian Hasia Diner has described marriages among poor Irish Americans as "stormy and short lived. Irish families sometimes suffered from violence and desertion on the part of husbands and fathers (Purcell 50)."

In her book, Erin's Daughters in America, published in 1983, Diner writes:

"An Irish immigrant woman who chose in the 1860s or 1870s to marry a construction worker in Boston or Providence or a factory hand living in New York or Worcester Massachusetts, ran a very high risk of having someday to be the sole support for a house full of children, existing on starvation's edge."

For these reasons, Irish women often stayed single for years, and once they married, they often headed single-parent households.” . . .

--Maybe calling Bridget "Maggie" was more respectful? Which would stand the earlier theory on its head...

[doug65oh]

hmmm Well, perhaps it's true... But for my own part at least it makes me wonder: Each of the sources cited is thoroughly modern. How far (or how far back) did the respective authors go in their research? It's a minor point perhaps, but nonetheless it would be helpful I think to know.

As far as "Maggie" being a more respectful term, perhaps it was. But wouldn't it be far more respectful to have called the maid by her correct name? Neither Borden sister was known to have cloth ears, so surely heard the name Bridget used many a time in the household. Know what I mean?

[william]

I've been playing with this one for years, and like so many others have gotten nowhere.

There have been several Margarets in the Irish branch of my family. A cousin was often referred to as "Peggy," and an aunt was called ,"Maggie.' - both were christened, "Margaret."

My wife's name was Marjorie - if I didn't want to eat dinner on a certain evening, all I had to do was call her, "Maggie."

This I do know: There is no record of any former Borden employee named "Bridget."

I have written to Irish American Societies on both sides of the ocean in an effort to discover a nickname for the name "Bridget." Their replies were unanimous - none existed.

In 2001 I corresponded with Riobard O'Dwyer, a well known genealogist in Ireland. In reply to my query he knformed me that "Bridget." was the only name listed in the parish records - there were no Confirmation records at this time. He also informed me that Bridget's mother was Margaret Leary.
--and that's all I've got...

[mbhenty]

Yes William, that has been the crux of my argument.

There is no proof that the last maid was named Maggie. It is what I call "a bleached lie", and if you repeat it enough times the truth is washed away.

You can see how this could easily come to pass.

The rumor, or "false truth" was spread by the well respected Edmund Pearson, who could be considered the father of Lizzie Borden Studies for a time following his 1937 publication "The Trial of Lizzie Borden".

He was the first to actually study the case, publish it, and be very successful at his endeavor. Later, many other writers would repeat what they probably read in "Pearson". One of them was Robert Sullivan, another Spiering, still another Edward Radin all claimed that the previous maid was named Maggie.

Where did Pearson get his information? He does not supply proof and what little research I have done have not discovered it to be true. Pearson was closer to the time line of the crime than most, still he was only 13 during the trial.

One interesting question is: did Pearson speak to anyone in Fall River who were alive during the murders?

What I mean to ask is, "how did Pearson know there was another Maggie before Bridget."

Allow me to answer the question by claiming that Pearson just "assumed" or received his information through "hearsay."

Who knows, perhaps Bridget already had a nick name or suggested that the girls call her Maggie.

You are right William, there is no proof and the only truth is that we just don't know.

But, I have good news. BELOW IS A NEVER SEEN PHOTO OF BRIDGET WHEN SHE WAS A baby.







Thus, it is easy to see how supposition becomes fac

[Nadzieja]

When Ted & I visited the Astor's mansion in Newport our guide told us this, and I've never heard it since so take it with a grain of salt. This is the mansion where everyone is dressed to play a role. He was talking about the driver and he said all the drivers were called James. The reason being that the rich had quite a few servants and instead of mixing up their names they called all the drivers by the name of James. I can't remember what they called the house servants.

[mbhenty]

Yes Nadzieja: That's funny, and probably true.

The expression, Home James was rumored to have come from Queen Victoria. I believe the entire expression was "Home James and don't spare the horses".

James was James Darling Queen Vicotoria's chauffuer.

[mbhenty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8G1uA7MxUU

[Nadzieja]

That song is great. I love the sound of the old music. Thanks for sharing.

[SallyG]

In 1880, the Bordens had a domestic named Mary Green from Ireland. Could THIS have been the elusive Maggie?

This is according to the 1880 census.

[Tina-Kate]

Sorry to knock back off topic again, but...

British parents. My mother always used to say to my father, "Home James" or "It's time to go home, James" when we were out & the evening had ended.

When I was small, I thought it was something she had made up.

[mbhenty]

Yes, that's funny Tina.

As children we all knew the expression. It circulated but we never had an idea where it came from, or did we even give it a second thought. It was just a funny thing to say.

Queen Victoria's chauffeur was named James Darling. If you read more about it you will find that royalty and upper class aristocrats in GB were in the habit of addressing their help, servants and drivers by their last name. Thus, there was an inside joke about the Queen saying to her driver, "Home Darling".

[mbhenty]

Yes Sally:

The last known Borden maid was named Mary. The problem there is we don't know who may have come after her, if any. Census are taken every 10 years. City directories almost never list servants. Thus, careful study would need to be made to try and discover if any Maggie existed. Even then nothing may be proven.

I think what we need to do here is to weigh out the possibilities and ignore Pearson, Radin, Sullivan and Speiring and until they can prove otherwise, prove where they got the Maggie scenario.

Yes dismiss their claims. I know I do.

I went looking and couldn't find any proof. There does not appear to be any confirmation of any Maggie other than Bridget.

Alas, these authors are dead and cannot give us the proof we need.

Just because they were writers who sell books does not make them authorities on the case. And in their minds if they consider themselves authorities, how much easier it becomes to flex a little literary muscle, add, fabricate, invent or just plain fictionalize. After all it's just a little thing. Maggie...........who in the world is going to check on that?

[Kat]

Good points.

And I have an *authority* who tells me (as William does) that "Maggie" would just not do.

So I rescind my post about that dratted term paper confusing the issue of "Bridget/Maggie."