Just how sick was andrew with food poisoning

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:38 pm

I was reading thru some old posts, and I got thinking. We all know he was sick Tuesday night with food poisoning, voimting and the like. The next day, Wednesday, he goes out to mail a letter for Lizzie and take care of business(somebody, and I forget who it is, said they saw andrew walk down the sidewalk by the gate/fence).

Now my question is, with a man about 70 who was sick the night before, wouldn't he be weak and dehydrated from the nite before. I would think he would want to stay in the house near a toilet and bed until he felt better and stronger.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 20, 2009 1:16 am

I don't think Andrew went out Wednesday. We know he missed his business meeting. He mailed the letter on Thursday.
He also declined Morse's invite to go to Swansea on Wednesday.
So I think he did stay home, maybe for reasons you suggest.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed May 20, 2009 6:03 pm

Thanks, guess I got my facts wrong. But wouldn't he still would have been a bit week on Thursday,too?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:50 am

I'm quite sure there was at least one person who said Andrew didn't look very well on Thursday. One of the fellows in the bank, I think.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:48 am

Oh that's right!

Abram Hart
Prelim
203-4
Q. Did you see which way he [Andrew] went when he left your bank?
A. I did not.
Q. Did he appear to be in health?
A. I had a fancy he did not look well, if it is allowable, I might state what he said.
(Mr. Jennings.) I have no objection.
A. The day before there was a quarterly meeting of the Trustees at which he being President would undoubtedly have been present were it not for some good and important reason. When he came in he said he was not present yesterday because he was not well.

Q. You say you did not think he looked well that day?
A. No sir, well I just had that fancy, that he did not look strong.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:02 am

And Dr. Bowen says his wife saw Andrew Wednesday- snokkums- this might be what you refer to:

Prelim
Dr. Bowen
407
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) A very few questions. When was the last time you saw Mr. Borden?
A. Mr. Borden, I saw him, I do not remember whether I ever saw him after Wednesday morning or not. I know my wife said he was out on the sidewalk; whether I looked out and saw him, I do not remember.
Q. You did not see him on Wednesday morning?
A. Yes, I saw him Wednesday morning.
Q. One of them called on you with reference to sickness they had had there?
A. Mrs. Borden called.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:50 am

Thanks for the back up, Kat!

I'm across town from my Lizzie documents here & can never back myself up anymore.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:35 am

That might be it that he saw the wife. Isn't that the episode where she wanted to see the doctor and Andrew said he wasnt going to pay for him seeing her over an upset stomach? Or do I have my facts wrong again? I remember reading something about where Abby didn't feel good and wanted the doctor to make a house call and Andrew said he wasn't going to pay for a house call. so she was going to go visit him at his house. And Andrew was still complaining about he wasn't going to pay for a doctor seeing her over an upset stomach, or something like that.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:51 am

well, it's a little mixed up, but close.

the wife- mrs. dr. bowen- supposedly saw andrew outside on wednesday on the sidewalk- as you remembered someone did say they saw him.

then the story you refer to about andrew not wanting to pay for a dr. visit was in alice's story of what lizzie told her wednesday night at alice's house.

that is from the knowlton papers, pg. 228- a letter to him by alice dated june 2nd, 1893.

partial
She [lizzie] said "father was mad and ordered the man out of the house." She told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen.

Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over.

I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.

Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure."

After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we
have got and I think it is too bad."

please remember the context of this part- it was alice in june, 1893, recalling in a letter to knowlton what she says lizzie told her about wednesday august 3, 1892. and also recall dr. bowen claims he thought lizzie had gone upstairs when he came over- so we don't know if lizzie was listening in, or made this stuff up.

plz excuse sometimes no capitals. it will be that way for a while. one finger typing.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon May 25, 2009 5:58 am

I thought it was something like that. Thanks Kat. Just couldn't remember how it went. Seems Andrew was a bit tight with his money, even when he was sick. LOL!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 25, 2009 8:37 pm

there were responses that claimed andrew might have been *tight* in business matters, but that he was not tight in home matters. emma herself says that in the 1913 interview. there are other sources (or source) for that as well- maybe in rebello?
but yes we also have an account where abbie supposedly says she has to buy home items (curtains?) out of her allowance.

i think the tv movie 'legend' has a lot to answer for. they depicted andrew as tight over the household menu- making everyone eat old icky food until it was gone so as not to waste anything.

jcurrie · Post by **jcurrie** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:44 am

I'm not surprised the family had food poisoning - warmed over mutton broth (it was probably warmed over several times). In the days before fridges, it's not surprising food went off, and the murder day was very hot indeed.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:13 am

This point is probably debatable, but in asking an expert on this subject in past discussions, it was their opinion that people's digestive systems might just have been hardier back then and able to tolerate certain potential food-related problems better than we do now; because they were used to those conditions. But of course, those who were already in a weakened state, might react more violently, like small children and the elderly.

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:38 pm

I think that Andrew himself said something about not feeling well when he went downtown the morning of his murder--apparently the reason he returned home earlier than expected. Maybe someone can pull up the quote?

I too have wondered about that wretched mutton. Food spoils quickly, especially in such hot weather, and you don't just leap out of bed ready to take on the world after a wretched night of being sick from food poisoning--particularly if, like Andrew and Abby, you're not exactly young and athletic anymore. It takes time to recuperate from an ordeal like that!

I myself am an enthusiastic eater

, but on a day as hot as that day in August when the murders happened, I don't think I could have eaten anything anyway. Extreme heat/humidity and a hearty appetite are not a good mix--not for me, anyway!

I still think it's "odd" that both Mr. and Mrs. Borden got ill that night, just hours before the murders. Even Bridget was ill the day of the murders, altho it seems not nearly as affected as her employers. Maybe thanks to youth and stamina--or maybe she ate less? [Yes, I am hinting at some hanky-panky here: I do not consider it a coincidence that almost everyone (except, remarkably, Lizzie) had some kind of intestinal upset shortly before the murders.] And we all know where Lizzie went just the day before (the drug store) and what she tried to buy (poison). Sure, coincidences happen, but when you get coincidence after coincidence, and then people end up dead...well, maybe I'm just paranoid, but it looks really suspicious to me!

But I will give Lizzie this much: if I had been faced with yet another plateful of warmed-over broth that blistering August morning, I probably would've started contemplating hatches myself!

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:04 pm

It's true -- there seems to be a strong suspicion that Lizzie was not ill on Tuesday night but I think we have to take the following testimony into account before before we can be sure of our ground there.

" ... [Mrs. Borden] said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at the time, about twelve." (Bowen, inquest.)

"She [Abby] said that Mr. Borden and herself were sick sometime between nine and twelve, that they were both vomiting, and that Lizzie, Miss Lizzie, was sick later. That she either went into the room or heard them, and that about 12 she was vomiting -, had been vomiting Wednesday night." (Bowen Prelim. 407)

Dr. Bowen's testimony also seems to be supported by the following statement from his wife:

"Q. Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A. I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not feeling very well. I says “I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out.” Mrs. Borden says “yes, she has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell.” (Phebe Bowen, Prelim. P. 478)

(So, it sounds from that as though Phebe heard Lizzie was ill, either from her husband or from Abby.)

John Morse backs up Bowen further with a number of references at the inquest, the preliminary hearing, and the trial:

. . . "they were indisposed, all of them that day.
Q. And the daughter?
A. Yes, Mrs. Borden told me they had all been sick". (Inquest, 99)

"Q. Did she say who was sick?
A. She said Mr. Borden, and Miss Lizzie, and herself".
(Prelim. 246.)

"Q. You say Mrs. Borden told you all three of them, herself, Mr. Borden and Lizzie had been sick the night
before?
A. Yes Sir." (Prelim. 247)

"Q. Do you know whether they were sick at that time or not?
A. They were.
Q. Do you know whether Miss Lizzie was or not?
A. Mrs. Borden told me she was." (Trial, 142)

And even Bridget gives a grudging nod to the matter...

"Q. Did you hear Miss Lizzie say anything about being sick too?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Adams) What did she say?
Q. What, if anything, did you hear Lizzie say?
A. No Sir, I heard her say she was sick all night too." (Bridget: Prelim.. 32)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:07 am

NESpinster: Notice that Abbie, thru Mrs. Dr. Bowen, gives Lizzie an alibi for any supposed *visit* to the drug store on Wednesday. The first murdered victim is Lizzie's alibi for not leaving the house.

Also, how hot it was on Thursday has been debated, so that is not a necessarily established *fact* either, sorry!

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:43 am

Diana, thanks so much for that testimony! I did have a vague memory of Lizzie's claim that she, too, had been ill, but honestly I thought it was probably just another of her "little inconsistencies!"

The testimony does seem to imply that at least Abby stated that Lizzie too was sick. It gets (to me anyway!) a bit fuzzy about just who said what--kind of "she said that she said..." and I'm going

"Which 'she' is 'SHE"?"--if you follow me?? Bridget does appear to admit that Lizzie was also sick, but it seems that she learned that from Abby, not by observing any illness herself. (Kind of the same way she "learned" about the mysterious note about the sick friend!)

But Kat, you have a point. Mrs. Borden says "Yes, she (Lizzie) has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell." That would be the famous visit we all remember where Lizzie told Alice how scared she was, that she suspected the milk was poisoned, that she had a depression she just couldn't shake off...a very odd chat, IMHO.

But then again, here I am chatting the night away about two horrific hatchet murders done over a century ago, so who am I to talk?!

If Abby was right--that day they were speaking of was Wednesday, wasn't it, the day before the murders?--then you're right, Kat, Lizzie could not have been at the drug store, trying to buy prussic acid or anything else. Her stepmother says that until she left for Alice Russell's that night (presumably long after all the shops were closed), Lizzie had spent the entire day at home. If this is true, either Lizzie did NOT try to buy prussic acid on the day before the murders, or someone else did and she somehow got confused with Lizzie (!), or the clerks got their dates wrong and maybe Lizzie had at some time in the past tried to buy prussic acid from them, OR.......

Remember that both Mr. and Mrs. Borden were elderly (esp. for that era) and that they had indeed been laid low by a nasty meal gone bad, or whatever. I can't help wondering (me with my devious little mind!) just how aware poor Abby was of what was going on in the house the day after she had been so ill? Isn't is possible that she might have needed a "lie-down" and that Lizzie might have taken that opportunity to slip out and do a little shopping?

And that she was back by the time Abby got up, Abby assumed that Lizzie had been home all along, and Lizzie was perfectly happy to let her think just that?

Please feel free to poke any holes necessary in my not-so-coherent theory--this is fun!!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:14 am

I do think Lizzie could have gone out and returned, without Abbie knowing, or Bridget. Bridget is very careful to say she did not herself know where Lizzie was on Wednesday, between meals.

Personally, I'm not sure whether Lizzie went out and returned- meaning gone to the drugstore. That all goes towards whether I think Lizzie used 2 weapons- poison and hatchet- and I've not ever been able to accept that.

It's just good to keep in mind what Lizzie herself says.

As for an earlier post (above), it was remarked that Andrew himself claimed on Thursday that he didn't feel well when he was downtown talking to folks, and thus returned *earlier than expected*- but I don't recall that- where does that notion come from?

goddessoftheclassroom · Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:26 am

I will be the first to admit that I am not well-versed in all the testimony. That confessed, I have never believed that it was Lizzie who tried to buy the poison. If Lizzie had really wanted poison, arsenic was readily available in rat poison and fly paper. Remember, NO arsenic was found in the bodies.

If Lizzie had nothing to do with the murders, she wouldn't have tried to buy poison.

If Lizzie was part of a conspiracy to murder, buying the poison was unnecessary.

If Lizzie were the murderer AND the visit to Alice part of her plan, I think she would have been smart enough to diffuse the shopping trip with a line such as, "I tried to buy prussic acid to treat my cape, but they wouldn't sell it to me."

I think the clerks did some backwards detection after the murders and decided that the unsuccessful customer was Lizzie. I also think that perhaps the real shopper DID want to poison someone and the Lizzie case must have had her shaking!

I wonder if any much-older, rich husbands suddenly succumbed to gastroenteritis the following week...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:18 am

Hmmm, interesting observations...

I think if someone did die with symptoms of poison nearby, it would have made the newspapers, don't you think?

There was a mass arsenic poisoning threat in the Evening Standard the week of the Borden murders. See Did She Didn't She.

In a way, it's 3 weapons now I think about it: possible poisoning that was not prussic acid, for those who think the Bordens were deliberatly poisoned and made ill Tuesday night- then an attempt to buy prussic acid which is a different-acting agent altogether- then the murder by hatchet...