pictures of lizzie......

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:39 pm

mbhenty wrote: And, as for the center photo in your post above... that is definitely Abby.

Of course, the other two is of a dour Sarah. :smile:

Yes, I'm sure it's been attested by 'scholars' and has all its scholarly bits n' bobs.
But to my own eyes that first photo of 'Sarah' resembles Abby, not Sarah. The features are so like Abby's and so unlike Sarah's. To my own eyes.

Our view of the first photo isn't optimal but there's enough information to date it by the hair and clothing, while the known photo of Sarah gives a full account of itself in terms of costume-dating. Due to the human foible of fashion, costume-dating is a reasonably accurate science. The first photo was taken some ten years after the third - it dates to the mid 1860s, when Abby married Borden. The third photo is earlier, from the early to mid 1850s. Sarah died in 1863, aged 39. Abby was only 5 years younger than Sarah but her dates are a better fit.

Pinterest has this one - below, badly reproduced - as Emma. Is this a known one of Emma?

image.jpg
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:28 pm

First of all, I want to comment on the alleged portrait of Emma Borden that MB posted. I find the seller’s description of the painting interesting. Here is what the deller stated (Highlighting and underline are mine.):

Antique American Folk Art Painting:
Portrait of Emma BORDEN !

* In August / 04 / 1892, Abby Borden and Andrew Borden were murdered in
their home on 92nd street,Fall River, Mass.
They had 2 daughters: Emma BORDEN & Lizzie BORDEN;
Lizzie was double murder suspect.
Its still mystery, who murdered Abby & Andrew BORDEN...

* I bought this painting from an local Auction in NC.
Painting was coming from Alabama, an Antique Shop, which was closed...
They sold it as "Lizzie BORDEN's Mother's portrait"
(they said, there was an old tag on painting described it so.)

* After i bought it, i made some research,
because i didn't know anything about Borden family...
I realized that, women in painting, looks like / could be Emma Borden.
Somehow, she was like Mother to Lizzie...

* Emma Lenora BORDEN (1851 - 1927)...was born in Fall River, Massachusetts.

* Painting came from Alabama, an Antique dealer's estate.

* Period frame.

* I couldn't find artist, i don't have proper resources to find it...

* CONDITION: It has 2 patches on the back, lower part of canvas.
Patches and retouching barely noticeable from front, because of dark paint.
As i see, face is untouched.
Frame has chips and paint has cracks...

* As is.

PLEASE SEE PHOTOS FOR DETAILS AND CONDITION !

* Dimensions, Approx.: ... Canvas: ... 30" H x 24" W
Frame: ... 38" H x 32" W

PLEASE SEE PHOTOS FOR DETAILS AND CONDITION !

* No partial refunds, I accept returns. Buyer pays return shipping.

THANK YOU FOR VISITING !


The sentence of They sold it as "Lizzie BORDEN's Mother's portrait" :

I assume they are referring to Sarah Borden, but just for the heck of it, I will post a picture of both Sarah and Abby.
Sarah.png
Emma 1.png
Abby.png
Granted we are comparing a painting to photos, which may or may not throw off our conclusions, but I don’t believe they will be very far off. Personally, I do not see a resemblance of the woman in the portrait to either Sarah or Abby; the eyes, eyebrows, chin line and lips say it all!

Here is the picture of Emma that the seller used to compare the woman in the portrait with her.
Emma 2.png
Emma 1.png
The eyebrows appear to be a closer match, but the eyes, nose, chin line, and particularly the lips are very different.

The frame is not a period frame; Victorian Era frames were very ornate, unlike the plain one shown.

My conclusion: That painting is not of Emma Borden.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:17 pm

Regarding this photo:
28828510_121807915137.jpg
Interested, I agree with you. I have thought for a long time that Sarah and Abby greatly resembled each other. However, I did a bit of research and found that this photo was added to the find-a-grave web page for Sarah Anthony Morse Borden, by Frances Earp Meyer. If you go into the photos section, and click on the photo, you will find the following information (Underlining is mine.):

Sarah Anthony Morse was the first wife of Andrew Jackson Borden and the mother of Emma Lenora, Alice Esther, and Lizzie Andrew.
I would say this was taken at the time of her marriage.


Source: http://tinyurl.com/y76gew2z

Source: Sarah Anthony Morse Borden: http://tinyurl.com/y6w75qh2

I recall that we had a forum discussion regarding the portraits of Andrew and Sarah Borden that were taken when they were young. So, I did a forum search and found the thread I remembered. :smile: A huge THANKS goes to mbhenty, for the information and pictures he provided us with in the thread titled, Lizzie Borden Gothic Ballad. See if you don’t agree that the picture above was cropped from the portrait of Sarah Borden when she was young: http://tinyurl.com/yaxkjvgv

MB, you stated in the above thread that Stefani was the one who discovered the portrait of Andrew. Did she also discover the portrait of Abby? What is the name of the museum where the portraits were found, and how did they obtain them?


Frances Earp Meyer also added this photo (1 of the 3) of Sarah with baby Emma Lenora, to the find-a-grave web page for Sarah Anthony Morse Borden:
28828510_121807936649.jpg
Here is the statement she wrote regarding that photo (Underlining is mine.):

Sarah Morse Borden with eldest daughter, Emma Lenora. Taken about 1853 in Fall River, Massachusetts.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ybw3q7a6

It’s unfortunate that the date was cut off; you can barely see it at the bottom of the photo. However, I agree that Emma appears to be about 2 years old in that photo. If the 1853 date is correct, then Sarah would be at least 7 years older than when she had her picture taken for the portrait.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:37 pm

InterestedReader wrote:... Pinterest has this one - below, badly reproduced - as Emma. Is this a known one of Emma?

image.jpg
Yes, this is a known photo of Emma while she was attending the Wheaton Female Seminary. Here is the photo that reproduction was taken from:
emmayoungfix.jpg
Here is some information that you may find interesting: http://tinyurl.com/y95kdl7k
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 pm

Yes :smile:

The photo of Sarah above (without baby Emma) was taken around the same time or the same day as the portrait discovered in Swansea. While browsing through Luther's General Store and Museum, Stefani discovered the framed portrait of Andrew and Sarah. The Swansea historian had no idea who they were or what he had. Stefani made it plain and opened the discovery to the Borden world. I was fortunate enough to be there to take photos.

The black and white photo of Sarah posted above, and the sepia sarah found at Luther's store, are very similar.... same outfit, me thinks. Though, the sepia photo displays her with a much more pleasant face. She actually looks pretty. These were believed to be taken around the time of their marriage. A third portrait was found with a similar frame, that one of an older woman, but of unknown presence. Who knows? May be Andrew's mother. :!:

The portrait below of Sarah is of great interest since she has a finger in her ear..... :shock: :roll: :oops:

:study:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:42 pm

Last frame is of an elderly lady. Unknown. I have a better photo of it somewhere? Will try to find it. :wink:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:34 am

Yes, the photograph is evidently the one used to work the portrait. Judy, yes, I saw the photo posted by an Earp on Findagrave - on a quick search it seemed to be there and nowhere else much. Someone had written a Message asking her to take it off the Borden page for not being Sarah. As to it dating to the Andrew & Sarah marriage - 1846 - no. It would date some 20 years later.

With the definitely-Sarah photo, Sarah holding Emma, I find the cachemire very disconcerting. About 1853 if it's Emma? In Europe a nice cachemire such as this would edge the date a few years later. Alice, apparently, was born in 1856 and lived one year 10 months. I wonder if it's actually inscribed as being baby Emma?
If you look to the left there seems to be something like a studio stamp - could be handwritten script - either erased or worn away...
...Just trying to read Alice's Cause of Death and it looks like 'Dropsy on Brain'..?
image.jpg
Mb, it would be fascinating to see the third portrait, if you have a photo of it.
The 'Andrew and Sarah' - need to be 1863 or earlier... Have they been past any kind of art historian?
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:15 am

Can you see it? Perhaps if you play around with the contrast... And it looks as if there might have been a date at the top.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:33 am

The photo below was taken by me. Taken from my picture file. The older lady is more than likely a relative of Sarah or Andrew... mother of Andrew or Mother-in-law. Good chance she is a Morse. Sadly there is no way to prove who she is. When the Borden images were discovered, the one of the older lady was with them. The frames are the same. So we know they are related. But unfortunately there is no sign or description of who she is. But a great find in any event. Definitely someone connected closely with the Bordens.

It has always been my contention that it is a portrait of Andrew Borden's Mother. But there is no way to prove it.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:38 am

Don't see it Interestedreader.

Be careful.

Stare at the sky and clouds long enough and you begin to see horsies and bunny rabbits. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :oops:

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:51 am

My goodness that is an odd article. Is it an over-painted photograph?
(The Andrew in drag looking one).

...I just looked her up and she died at 64. This one looks seriously old!
Also she died in 1853. If this isn't an over-painted photograph, then it's a very unflattering idiom to find in the 1850s :smile: .
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:58 am

Where the red arrow points, the beginning of script - A gothic-script 'F' for Fall River perhaps? A studio stamp? And at the top some numerals in nineteenth century penmanship.

(I haven't upped the contrast because it can become too chatty. But open to enlarge.)
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:25 am

This is hand-tinted. They did do a lot of hand-tinting in the 1850s.

She's one of the Hathaways. She's like a perky little ostrich.
image.jpg
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:42 am

Yes:

It's called a 'crayon portrait'. A photograph that is colored.

With further investigation the comparison of Andrew and the old lady above is not a valid one. Upon inquiring a Fall River historian who is very familiar with the Borden case, he reminded me that Andrew's father was married twice and that the portrait is not Andrew's mother. In any event, a fun way to take up all our useless time... eh?

I see what you mean InterestedReader. I can see an 8 in there somewhere. Could be.

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:13 pm

Page 13 of Parallel Lives has a picture of Andrew Borden's Father's second wife. Not the same person as the portrait above.

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:15 pm

So...there's Phebe Davenport Borden, and then a second one? Who else did he marry? if you just have it in memory...

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:17 pm

One thing about the Andrew and spouse portraits, what a very good artist he got there. It's really accomplished work. Was the artist identified on the reverse?

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by mbhenty » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:37 pm

Yes: Abraham Borden's second wife was one, Phebe Wilmarth.

Dropsy on the brain is a condition called hydrocephalus, or water on the brain. It is caused by a blockage of sorts somewhere in the brain upon which brain fluid builds up and can not drain. To die from such a condition must have been a terrible death. Some baby's heads swell to almost twice the size causing a host of terrible disabling conditions. Today treatment is straight forward if not somewhat manageable or completely successful. A shunt is installed to allow drainage of brain fluid into the stomach.

Poor Alice. How would history have played out if Lizzie was the one to die as an infant and Alice was allowed to live, or if Bill Gates money suddenly appeared in my bank account. We will never know. :-? :-? :roll: :oops:

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:04 am

I supposed it would be hydrocephalus. We had a case in our family, my grandmother's brother. Even then there was no attempt at surgical intervention - he was put in a home and survived to his 40s. He became a non-person. The first Mum knew of him was the day he died. Then later we always heard how cruel it is on the parents also because a child showed no signs of the condition at birth, or none discernible to medicine at the time. We'd also hear that it's caused by a structural malformation, so siblings may have trouble to a lesser extent. Our mother and grandmother both had debilitating migraines and severe pain in the occipital region of the skull. 'Normal' siblings can have the abnormal pressure on the brain, so hydrocephalus in Alice might indicate some kind of related issues in Lizzie Borden.

I know Lincoln does all that epilepsy-fugue nonsense, but... Lizzie says some things which do make one wonder if she suffered from migraine. Her alleged sense of foreboding - such a sense is a recognised type of migraine aura.

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:23 am

twinsrwe wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:... Pinterest has this one - below, badly reproduced - as Emma. Is this a known one of Emma?
Yes, this is a known photo of Emma while she was attending the Wheaton Female Seminary. Here is the photo that reproduction was taken from:
The Pinterest would be a smaller, younger Emma wouldn't it.

What a strange-looking child she was. Like a hobgoblin from the world of faery.
I'm very struck by how she's dressed in the 'elder' image. Flashy taffeta and heavy bracelets on a girl of what.. 13 or 14? The Bordens liked to show off their wealth, on the back of this slight girl... If she was sent to boarding-school gussied up like this it's amazing - you can see it's silk from the lustre, and cut for evening wear.
What age would you say she is in the small child photo? It's incredible, she's wearing an almost-crinoline. On a child.
Even with allowance made for the customs of the time... she's being dressed older than her years. In both images.

...Very ostentatious clothes on both Emmas... They wanted people to know they had money!
(The cachemire on mother Sarah - the shawl - would also be a very expensive item. At that time the best ones were imported from the East.)

image.jpg
image.jpg
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:20 pm

mbhenty wrote: ...
The photo of Sarah above (without baby Emma) was taken around the same time or the same day as the portrait discovered in Swansea. While browsing through Luther's General Store and Museum, Stefani discovered the framed portrait of Andrew and Sarah. The Swansea historian had no idea who they were or what he had. Stefani made it plain and opened the discovery to the Borden world. I was fortunate enough to be there to take photos. ...
Thank you for sharing this information with us! What a thrill it must have been for Stefani to discover such a magnificent treasure, and how cool for you to have been there to share in the excitement! :grin:
mbhenty wrote: ...
The black and white photo of Sarah posted above, and the sepia sarah found at Luther's store, are very similar.... same outfit, me thinks. Though, the sepia photo displays her with a much more pleasant face. She actually looks pretty. ...

The portrait below of Sarah is of great interest since she has a finger in her ear..... :shock: :roll: :oops: ...
untitled A.png
untitled B.png
Well, I'll be. I see what you mean, MB, and I stand corrected, the black and white photo was not cropped from the portrait of Sarah. Dang, I would have caught the facial difference if I had placed the to photos together before I had submitted my post. :roll:

Hmmm, maybe Sarah has a more pleasant facial expression in the her portrait photo, because she has someone's finger in her ear! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:44 pm

mbhenty wrote:The photo below was taken by me. Taken from my picture file. The older lady is more than likely a relative of Sarah or Andrew... mother of Andrew or Mother-in-law. Good chance she is a Morse. Sadly there is no way to prove who she is. When the Borden images were discovered, the one of the older lady was with them. The frames are the same. So we know they are related. But unfortunately there is no sign or description of who she is. But a great find in any event. Definitely someone connected closely with the Bordens.

It has always been my contention that it is a portrait of Andrew Borden's Mother. But there is no way to prove it.
Whoever the older lady is, Emma sure took after her in looks!
borden.jpg
17322256_125839590702.jpg
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:57 pm

InterestedReader wrote:Where the red arrow points, the beginning of script - A gothic-script 'F' for Fall River perhaps? A studio stamp? And at the top some numerals in nineteenth century penmanship.

(I haven't upped the contrast because it can become too chatty. But open to enlarge.)
I didn't see what you were referring to until you posted the picture with the red arrow. When photo is enlarged, I see where the red arrow is pointed, what appears to be the year '1883', which doesn't make any sense. I do not see a gothic-script of 'F'. :sad: Perhaps a bit of contrast would help to make it clearer.
image.jpg
I can't make out what is within the small circle at the top of this photo. :sad:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:51 pm

Rorschach test!

The possibly-Gothic text begins at the red arrow and is on an upward slant. There's a word that might be 'Fall', there's a capital Gothic letter. And then where the next word should be all I can see is a downstroke flourish. At the top in the oval shape, there's a suggestion of a date. It looks as if there might have been a studio stamp and an inscription, originally.
image.jpg
image.jpg
The problem with such photos if there's no original inscription intact, is they can show the 'wrong' people. An Emma is of more use to the industry than a dead Alice so there's a will to identify the child as Emma.

It's the same with the 'Sarah'. It would be a shame if a good depiction of the younger Abby is being identified as 'Lizzie's mother'. The Luther Museum should consult an art historian. There's a good chance an 1860s dating would be favoured over an 1850s. If it is Sarah you have the interesting possibility Andrew commissioned it after she was dead; the artist adheres to the 'Sarah' photograph very intently to work the features, while we see more of an expected process with 'Andrew'. The known photo of Sarah shows a thinner, more fragile woman. She has the Morse eyes and she looks ill - even in the 1850s. If the new portrait is Sarah then she did some wasting afterwards. But it's the artistic idiom and also the costume which suggest the 1860s to my own eyes.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:16 pm

InterestedReader wrote:Rorschach test!

The possibly-Gothic text begins at the red arrow and is on an upward slant. There's a word that might be 'Fall', there's a capital Gothic letter. And then where the next word should be all I can see is a downstroke flourish. At the top in the oval shape, there's a suggestion of a date. It looks as if there might have been a studio stamp and an inscription, originally.

The problem with such photos if there's no original inscription intact, is they can show the 'wrong' people. An Emma is of more use to the industry than a dead Alice so there's a will to identify the child as Emma. ...
OK, I think I see it now. Thanks for the further explanation. :grin:
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:02 am

InterestedReader wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:... Pinterest has this one - below, badly reproduced - as Emma. Is this a known one of Emma?
Yes, this is a known photo of Emma while she was attending the Wheaton Female Seminary. Here is the photo that reproduction was taken from:
The Pinterest would be a smaller, younger Emma wouldn't it.

What a strange-looking child she was. Like a hobgoblin from the world of faery.
I'm very struck by how she's dressed in the 'elder' image. Flashy taffeta and heavy bracelets on a girl of what.. 13 or 14? The Bordens liked to show off their wealth, on the back of this slight girl... If she was sent to boarding-school gussied up like this it's amazing - you can see it's silk from the lustre, and cut for evening wear.
What age would you say she is in the small child photo? It's incredible, she's wearing an almost-crinoline. On a child.
Even with allowance made for the customs of the time... she's being dressed older than her years. In both images.

...Very ostentatious clothes on both Emmas... They wanted people to know they had money!
(The cachemire on mother Sarah - the shawl - would also be a very expensive item. At that time the best ones were imported from the East.)
image A.jpg
image B.jpg
Yes, the Pinterest image appears to be a younger Emma, although I have no idea how old she would have been when that image was taken. We know the older image of Emma was taken when she was attending Wheaton Female Seminary in 1866-1868.

The thing I find interesting is Emma's pose in both of the photos; she has her right hand on the back of a chair, her left arm is positioned straight down her side, and the expression on her face is very similar.
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by stargazer » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:52 pm

Slight widows peak on the bottom image hair. (holding the baby girl)
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by Arynews » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:03 am

Is there any way to identify the time period when the dress was in style? Fashions changed from year to year, so it might be of some help.

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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by InterestedReader » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:42 am

Clothing may be dated very precisely on account of the human foible for fashion. A costume will tell you the time reliably. Which image are you interested in dating?

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snokkums
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Real Name: Robin
Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee

Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by snokkums » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:21 am

:popcorneyes: To me there is a resemblance but I don't think it's her. The face is to soft and narrow. Even in her youth, Mozzie always had a wide square face . Jaw to be exact. And she had a ruddy complextion.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.

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twinsrwe
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Re: pictures of lizzie......

Post by twinsrwe » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:51 pm

I ran across an article in The Herald News, that was posted on August 8, 2015, by Deborah Allard, titled, Swansea’s 200-year-old J.G. Luther Store is a step back in time.

Scroll down to the slideshow titled, Inside the J.G. Luther Store in Swansea, and then check out the 9th slide in the 9 picture slideshow. It shows the portrait of the elder lady that MB posted above. The caption under this slide states (Underlining is mine): This portrait at the J.G. Luther Store in Swansea may be of Lizzie Borden’s maternal grandmother.

Here is The Herald News article: http://tinyurl.com/y9834veu

Lizzie’s maternal grandmother would have been Rhoda Morrison Morse, Sarah Borden’s mother. I have been trying to find a photo of Sarah’s mother to compare it to the photo of the elderly lady, but have come up with nothing.

I have to disagree with the caption that is indicated under the framed portrait of the elderly lady. I believe she is most likely Phebe Davenport Borden, Lizzie’s paternal grandmother, and Andrew’s mother.
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time."~ Abraham Lincoln :grin:

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