Where finished the pear cores?

[Franz]

Questioned by Knowlton, Lizzie said that she went under the pear tree and took some pears up from the ground, and then ate them (three) in the barn. If I recall correctly, Knowlton didn’t ask her where the pear cores finished.

The police stated that they didn’t find footprints in the barn. This is one of the circumstantial evidences against Lizzie, but the pear cores were not mentioned. Did the police search them?

[Allen]

I have never heard mention of any pear cores being found. I've often wondered myself why it was that Lizzie picked pears up out of the yard and ate them, when Andrew brought in a basket of them and left them on the table that morning before he left.If she wanted pears they were readily available on the table. I think she simply tried to fill in the blanks with enough activities so that the right amount of time elapsed for Andrew to already be dead when she came inside and "found" him. If you pick it apart piece by piece her alibi for being outside is very shaky.

[Franz]

Hello Allen. Thank you for your reply. I know that you are very convinced for Lizzie's guilty. I will be happy to discuss with you and other mumbers of the Forum and will do my best to demonstrate Lizzie's innocence.
You said that you have never heard mention of any pear cores being found. Attention, please: when we say "found", it means that we have searched something and then this something was found or was not found. But if the police did not search the pear cores at all, we couldn't say that they were not found, they simply were not searched but they could really exist! The police commited a huge mistake if they did not search them!
You said well that Lizzie "tired to fill in the blanks with enough activities so tha the right amout of thime elapsed for Andrew to already be dead when she came inside and "found" him." I have my own conjecture about the barn story and will submit a post later.

[Smudgeman]

She could of just said "I was so hungry that I ate them core and all"

[Franz]

Hello, Allen, Thank you for your reply. I know you are very convinced for Lizzie’s guilty. I will be happy to discuss with you and other members and do my best to demonstrate her innocence.

You said you “have never heard mention of any pear cores being found”. If I understand correctly, when we say “found”, it should mean that we have searched something and then this something was or was not found. But in Lizzie’s case, the pear cores probably were not searched by the police at all but they probably did exist! So I would say: “I have never heard mention of any pear cores being searched”.

You are right in saying that Lizzie “tried to fill in the blanks with enough activities so that the right amount of time elapsed for Andrew to already be dead when she came inside and "found" him”. Undoubtedly Lizzie lied about her alibi, but this doesn’t mean that she hadn’t an alibi. I will post an article later to explain my own conjecture on the barn story.

[PossumPie]

One thing about Post Hoc (after the fact) descriptions of one's activities...it is disjointed and may sound strange or suspicious. If you had to give a full account of your activities and whereabouts on any random morning, I'm sure you would forget to mention something, intentionally leave out some embarrassing parts, or mis-speak. I think it sounds suspicious and contrived for Lizzie to say she wandered around in 100 degree weather eating pears, but I have done stranger things. The cores may have been casually dropped in a slop bucket or down the outhouse so as not to attract wasps. Wasps are always a problem around fruit trees in summer. I tend to reserve judgement as to guilt or innocence because of 'reasonable doubt'. I feel this was mainly due to shotty police work. I think the truth was out there for retrieval at the time, but poor detective work and Victorian values got in the way. Guilty or innocent, she deserved to go free b/c of reasonable doubt.

[Mara]

As one who is fortunate to have access to delicious pears from organically grown trees, I can tell you that if a pear is ripe enough to have fallen to the ground, it is ripe enough to eat core and all. I often do that, in fact. Even the seeds are perfectly edible, since they're softer than, say, apple seeds. I suppose since the Bordens had pear trees, they were accustomed to doing likewise. On a hot day, they are wonderfully refreshing. Remember, in those days, people didn't routinely have iced drinks as we do today. Anything wet would have been thirst-quenching.

Still, it was all very odd.

[Franz]

The most important thing for me about pear cores story is this: after Lizzie said she ate some pears (she didn’t say she ate them core and all), Knowlton, who was almost convinced of Lizzie’s guilt at the preliminary inquest and made so many questions that day, didn’t ask her where she left the cores. During the trial, the prosecution part didn’t declare something like “we searched the pear cores but we didn’t find any.” So, if I were not wrong, the pear cores were not questioned and searched at all by the police during all the investigation. According to me, this is a grotesque and scandalous mistake and must be considered in favor for Lizzie’s defense, because they could actually exist and be an evidence of Lizzie’s innocence!

[Yooper]

If this was a point in favor of the defense, why did the defense not make it? They might have asked if a search had been made for the pear cores. They risked an answer that the pear cores had been searched for and not found. If they indeed considered bringing the point up, apparently they didn't think it worth the risk.

[Franz]

Hello Yooper.

All I can say about the pear cores is this: if I recall correctly, Knowlton didn’t ask Lizzie if she ate the pears core and all, and if not, where she left the cores. If Lizzie’s pears story were false and if the police searched them but didn’t find them, the prosecution part would have pointed out this as one more circumstantial evidence against Lizzie, but this didn’t happen during the trial. So I must think that the police didn’t question and search the pear cores. The defense part might have committed as well a grotesque error not pointing out the police’s mistake in favor of Lizzie during the trial.

[Yooper]

Another possibility is, due to the number of people wandering about the yard, any number of pears might have been eaten and the cores tossed about. Who could say which were or were not Lizzie's? Neither the prosecution nor the defense brought the point up, so perhaps there was no point to be made.

[Franz]

Hello Yooper. What you said is possible. But given that Lizzie said she had eaten three pears, it should have been the duty of the police to investigate. Searching for the pear cores but not being able to make a point, this is a matter; not investigating at all, this is another, a very different one. Since Knowlton didn’t ask Lizzie nothing during the preliminary inquest and the pear cores never mentioned anywhere afterwards, it should be reasonable to think that the police didn’t do nothing with the pear cores. If this were true, the defence could attack the prosecution part, no matter whether Lizzie told the truth (she might have lied about pear cores together with her barn story, but this doesn’t mean she was guilty).

[NancyDrew]

I have 2 comments about the pears:

1. Pear seeds are not "perfectly edible." (source: http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/p/plant_p ... /intro.htm) Maybe Lizzie should have used THEM to poison her parents!

2. Andrew was known to fling his slop bucket all over the backyard. (Hopefully it only contained liquid and no solids...). Does anyone else find it gross to think about eating pears that might be covered in stale urine? I know this is disgusting, but this question always bugged me. I can see picking the pears off the trees, but I wouldn't touch one lying on the ground, considering Andrew Borden's toilet practices.

[Yooper]

The fact that neither the prosecution nor the defense questioned anyone about pear cores does not conclusively prove that the police did not look for pear cores.

The only conclusions I can reach are either: 1) Neither the prosecution nor the defense thought to ask about the pear cores, or 2) A search for the pear cores proved inconclusive for some reason.

[DJ]

Franz, Please note this well, because it's very important:

The only time Lizzie testified about what she was doing the morning of August 4, 1892, was at the Inquest.

However, that testimony was not admitted at the actual trial, because she had not been advised of her full Constitutional right against self-incrimination prior to her testimony at the Inquest.

So, nothing she said at the Inquest could be introduced at the trial (unless she had testified, which she oh-so-wisely didn't, and had introduced the subject, and could be cross-examined thereon).

So, her alleged presence in the barn on August 4, 1892, was moot at the trial. The defense didn't want to touch the subject, because it would have introduced the subject of the barn, and Lizzie never could produce proof that she was there. So, the defense had no proof that she was there.

The prosecution couldn't introduce the subject, because it was part of the Inquest testimony.

******************************************************************************************************************

Also, Franz, even if the police had found a mountain of pear cores in the barn, those could have been placed there an hour before, or fifteen minutes after, Lizzie said she was there. Their presence would not have proved that Lizzie was in the barn When She Said She Was.

Similarly, the absence of cores proves nothing, either. Even if Lizzie were telling the truth, why would she have littered the barn floor with pear cores?

She would have flung them out the window, with others.

The whole backyard seems to have been a glorified toilet, what with Mr. Borden's slop-bucket contents (as Nancy Drew notes), Bridget's vomit, and who-knows-how-many pear cores. Doubtless, the neighborhood boys probably relieved themselves there, too, while cutting over fences and through yards.

[Franz]

Hello DJ, thank you for your reply.

1. I don’t ignore that Lizzie’s testimony at the Inquest was not admitted at the actual trial. I read somewhere, if I recall correctly, that when she was informed of this, Lizzie burnt into tears. Why did she cry? For her life? Or more for her woman’s honour?

2. You said that “Lizzie never could produce proof that she was there (in the barn)”. DJ, could you say that my masturbation theory is absolutely, 100% impossible? If Lizzie performed actually intimate activities in the barn somewhere on the ground floor for about 15 minutes or so on, and then left the barn, what kind of proof you want Lizzie to produce?

3. You said that “the defense had no proof that she was there.” I would like to ask this question: did the prosecution have proof that she was not there? What could prove the absence of the footprints on the loft floor? What could prove the alleged high temperature? Did the prosecution want to accuse Lizzie? Ok! But prove to us that at that moment she was, instead of being in the barn, killing her father. Prove it to us, please!

4. For the pear cores I repeat here a phrase I wrote in a precedent reply: searching for the pear cores but not being able to make a point, this is a matter; not investigating at all, this is another, a very different one.

[Yooper]

If there is proof positive that the police did not search for pear cores, please provide it with citations.

[Franz]

I repeat here another phrase in one of my precedent replies: "Since Knowlton didn’t ask Lizzie nothing during the preliminary inquest and the pear cores never mentioned anywhere afterwards, it should be reasonable to think that the police didn’t do nothing with the pear cores."

I apologize if I'm not able to explain well because of my mediocre English.

[Yooper]

That's my point, it is not reasonable to think that the police didn't look for pear cores because Knowlton, or anyone else for that matter, did not ask about them. The logical contortion is just as apparent the second and third time as it is the first time.

[PossumPie]

Didn't Uncle John bypass the crowd of people upon coming back to the Borden home, and eat pears? What the heck is with the pears?? Maybe they had pears as an alibi before hand, and he threw pear cores down to confound the police as to who's pears were there first?

[Yooper]

I think Morse testified that he ate part of a pear before going into the house. There were others milling around the yard and any of them may have eaten pears and discarded the cores in the yard. As DJ mentioned, even if pear cores were found, there was no telling who left them and when they were left.

If pear cores had been found in the barn loft near the west window where Lizzie said she ate the pears, it may have supported her contention to a fair degree. Her barn story sounded outlandish, but finding fresh pear cores in such an odd place might have lent some credibility to the story. That still doesn't speak to who left them and when, but what would the odds be that someone else left them?

[Smudgeman]

The eating of the pears was just another Lizzie lie I am sure, just like the sewing, ironing, and looking for sinkers, fixing wrappers, and all of the many activities Lizzie said did that day, yeah right. Then she thought she might change into something more comfortable after the murders , and made it seem like someone ask her to do so.

[NancyDrew]

Hmmm. I have always found it more than a little strange that John Morse, upon arriving back at 92 Second Street, and observing the significant crowd that had gathered, not to mention the police carriages, strolled languorously through the back yard and ate pears before asking anyone "So what the hell is going on ?" (not real words, obviously.)

1. Didn't he wonder why all the people?
2. Wasn't he concerned at the sight of the police horses? (I'm assuming that the police had a special carriage, and that it could be recognized as belonging to the police...correct me if I'm wrong.)
3. Why wasn't he worried about his friend, Andrew Borden? He knew that Andrew was elderly (very elderly...in the latter part of the 1800's, less than 3% of the population of the U.S. was over 65...and yup, I'm proud to have a citation to back that up! http://www.uri.edu/fhn/handouts/fall06/ ... merica.pdf) AND that Andrew had been sick. Why wouldn't he have rushed into the house?
4. Okay, so assuming John Vinnicum Morse was a man who didn't rush at anything; assuming he was a slow-poke who took his time (I'm from rural New England..actually, I"m only 30 miles from the Borden house) and there are lots of old "swamp Yankees" who still declare "hurried work is worried work"...that still doesn't explain why he would stop and eat frickin' pears!!!!! Unless, of course, (outlandish theory follows) he had planned ahead with Lizzie, and was eating pears and throwing down cores to establish Lizzie's alibi.

It's far fetched, but then again, so is this murder.

[Allen]

Officers Allen, Wixon, Doherty, and Medley walked to the scene of the crime. Officer Allen stated in trial testimony it took him four minutes to walk to the scene after being directed there by Marshall Hilliard. John Fleet stated he took the police buggy,but he arrived at the scene after John Morse was already at the house. Officer Michael Mullally was with him. Phillip Harrington took a horse car part of the way and walked the rest.

Trial Testimony George W. Allen page 432:

Q. How far is it from the station or how many minutes' walk up to it?
A. Four minutes it took me, because I have tried it since.

Q.Did you walk or---
A. Went partly on the run.
-------
Trial testimony of Francis H. Wixon page 446:

Q. Did you walk to the Borden house?
A. I did.
--------
Trial testimony of John Fleet page 460:

Q. How did you get there walking or driving?
A. In a buggy.

Q. Whose buggy: who took you?
A. Police departments'.

--------
Trial Testimony of John Fleet page 461:

Q. Whom did you find in, down stairs?
A. I saw John Morse, Bridget Sullivan in the kitchen, and I think Mrs. Churchill.

Q. Did you see anybody else on the lower floor of the house?
A. I did, I went through the kitchen to the sitting room, and saw Dr. Dolan standing or leaning over the body of Mr. Borden, Andrew J. Borden.

-------
Trial testimony of Michael Mullaly page 610:

Q. Do you know about what time you arrived at the house?
A.23 minutes to twelve.

Q.How do you fix it so accurately?
A.By looking at my watch.

Q. As you got to the house or where?
A.As I got at the house.

Q. Did you go alone or with some one?
A. I went with officer Allen

[Allen]

I've always believed that too much was read into Uncle John's reaction upon returning home that day. At what time during the day did the crowd outside the home reach a number that would have rang alarm bells that something was wrong? Word still traveled pretty much by mouth back then. How long did that take? According to many accounts Second Street was a busy street, and walking was still one of the main modes of travel. I'm sure that there were usually people along that street during the day going about their daily business, but when did the number of the crowd grow to the level that it should have caused concern for Uncle John that something was amiss at the Borden house? Unless he was expecting some terrible tragedy to have occurred while he was away I wonder if that would have been the first thing to cross his mind. If I leave my house and come home to find some people milling around on the sidewalk outside my home, I am not so sure I'd become immediately concerned, or go rushing into the house to immediately ask questions. I live in the city. People gather in groups sometimes and it doesn't always mean a terrible tragedy has taken place. Were the police outside in the yard at that point when he came home? Or were they all inside the home?

[Yooper]

I can think of one reason for a delayed crowd gathering at the Borden house, it was nearly lunch time. People may have held their curiosity in abeyance until after the mid-day meal. Word may not have reached many people until after the noon hour. Morse said he returned to the Borden house at 11:40-11:45, went to the yard to pick up some pears, and was bringing them to the house when he encountered Sawyer and Bridget at the door. He said he neither saw nor heard anything which caused him any alarm. Word probably began spreading since Mrs. Churchill went across the street to send her hired man for a doctor. I don't know how fast it spread, but a half hour after the fact there may only have been small groups of neighbors milling about, not necessarily directly in front of the Borden house. Morse probably didn't find a number of people out and about at lunch time unusual.

[NancyDrew]

Here is why I have such a hard time believing John Morse...if he were the type of person who was "in his own world"...you know, the type that didn't pay particular notice to things specifically, then yes, I can see why he might not sense that something was amiss at the Borden house. But that isn't the type of man he was. His alibi was so...detailed; right down to numbers and times. Which was he? Self-possessed and unaware or keenly vigilant?

Even if he said he didn't notice anything in particular, I have a hard time believing that he was making a true statement.

There was a plain citizen deputized on the spot and told to stand guard by Officer Allen..and by then, I would think that all the flurry...Bridgette running back and forth and Mrs. Adelaide scurrying over as well...plus...isn't it possible that SOMEONE cried out over the bloody scene before them? Lizzie may have been stone-faced, but I can't imagine there wasn't anyone crying, and I would think that would have attracted attention. Crowds can gather very quickly, especially on a well traveled street. Were the windows of the house open or closed? (I know Bridgette would have had to close them to splash the water but I can't imagine they stayed closed...the house would have been like an oven...)

In the end, I really don't' wish to engage in an argument over this that offends anyone...I haven't studied Morse much. Maybe I should. He is certainly a strange man. I think that is all the comments I will make for now on pears and JVM. Anything else I post is pure conjecture.

[Yooper]

John Morse apparently did pay attention to details, his alibi is an illustration of that. He was able to enter the premises and walk to the rear yard without interference, so apparently there were no police present outside the house preventing people from entering the yard. I can't say how many people were present outside the house or if they were behaving in a way which Morse might find alarming. Offhand, I can't think of a reason Morse would need to lie about the presence of a crowd. He really was an odd character, I can understand people being suspicious of him.

On the other hand, just to stir the pot, if Morse wanted to behave in a way to avoid suspicion, the last thing he wanted to do was rush into the house making it appear that he knew something was wrong, crowd or no crowd. He might take his time entering the yard, pick up a few pears, mosey to the door, etc. Rushing to the door might imply he knew something was going to happen, taken along with what many people consider his overly tight alibi.

[PossumPie]

There is in my opinion no way Morris could return to the house, see the group of people, not overhear words like "tragedy, murder, killed, Andrew," etc. and ignore them. Someone said there are people outside her house in groups, and that doesn't worry her... but if you would overhear these people discussing killings, I think your heart would begin racing. ON 9/11 news crews wandered the streets catching groups of people discussing the World Trade Center...It was impossible to walk by any group and not catch snippets of conversation that would get your attention. People at or near the Borden house would be discussing murder...

[DJ]

It is established that the side door was already being guarded, by a civilian, when John Morse arrived.

So, crowd or no crowd on the street, at that point Morse knew.

And, he went to the pear tree.

I believe the above is undisputed, via testimony.

************************************************************

My theory:

That Emma knew Lizzie was going back to Fall River from her aborted trip to Marion, in order to murder Abby, and she sent JVM down there to help handle Andrew. To run interference for Lizzie, if you will.

I believe it's why JVM was so meticulous about establishing an alibi that a.m., across town.

Tell you what: I even think it's why JVM bought stamps across the street from the P.O. I believe he was waiting to see if Mr. Borden made it out of the house, pressed by Lizzie with her letter to Emma. JVM proceeds after he spots Mr. B going in the P.O.; JVM could have arrived on Weybosset in plenty of time on the streetcar, although he says he walked there.

The reason why I think he went to the pear tree:

He was flabbergasted; he had to collect his thoughts.

Lizzie was only supposed to murder Abby, but JVM learns at the door that Mr. Borden is murdered.

He has to adjust his thinking; how he will proceed.

[twinsrwe]

That's an interesting theory, DJ.; it puts another angle on Uncle John's actions that day.

[Yooper]

While it seems confusing, Morse's testimony at the trial indicates he didn't see Sawyer until after he picked up the pears. The way this is phrased, it sounds like Morse's intention was to get some pears before entering the house, his focus upon entering the yard from the street was the back yard rather than the side door. He didn't consider himself to be going to the house until after he had been to the pear tree and that may lead to the confusion.

Trial, pp. 151-152, John Morse under cross-examination by Robinson:

Q. Mr. Sawyer stood just on the top step, the broad step?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she was seated. The stair case comes right down close to the door?
A. Comes right down close to the door.
Q. So that they were near enough to have conversation with each other?
A. Yes, sir; within 3 feet.
Q. I do not ask what was said, but did you notice whether there was conversation
between them as you arrived there?
A. No, I didn't hear any.
Q. And you said that you went out to the pear tree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, they were not there, were they, when you went by, or were they?
A. I didn't see them outside when I went by.
Q. That is, as you came you came up the walk, and instead of passing up the steps you
went right around behind the house to the pear tree?
A. I went right around to the tree.

So, Sawyer was inside the house as Morse went past the porch on the side of the house, and Sawyer came outside after Morse went into the back yard. Morse goes on to testify that he saw no one in the yard on the north, east, or south sides of the house.

[Allen]

What gets my attention is that John Morse is supposedly coming back to eat dinner with the Borden's, and yet he is stopping to eat pears in the back yard. And the sequence of events as told by Charles Sawyer and John Morse don't mesh. John Morse testified at the Inquest that he went into the backyard to get some pears after arriving back at the house. Then testified that he was informed at the side door about the murders by the servant girl( Bridget.) At the trial he testified that Mr. Sawyer was at the back door, and "I think Bridget Sullivan". Charles Sawyer testified that he first saw John Morse coming up the walk from the gate, and that he was the one who informed Morse that the Borden's had been killed. So was John Morse coming around the side of the house from the front gate when Sawyer saw him? Or was he coming up the walk towards the front gate from being in the back yard. Who told Morse about the murders? And why does John Morse change his story? John Morse claimed he saw nothing out of the ordinary to attract his attention. Charles Sawyer testified that Morse asked him what was going on.


Inquest testimony of John Morse page 104:

Q. When was the first you heard that Mr. Borden was killed?
A. When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked if I had heard the news. I said no. She said Mr. and Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.

---------------------------------------------------------

Trial testimony John V. Morse page 140-141:

Q. Can you tell who was in the kitchen or dining-room or sitting-room when you got there, Mr. Morse?
A. When I got there the day of the murder, you mean?

Q. I mean after the murder, the homicide.
A. Mr. Sawyer was at the door, and I think Bridget Sullivan.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Trial Testimony of John V. Morse page 151:
Q. I think you say that as you came into the side entrance you saw somebody; and who was that?
A. Mr. Sawyer.

Q. I do not ask you what was said. Where was he?
A. He was right at the door. He came, and I ---

Q. On the inside or outside, Mr. Morse?
A. He was on the outside.

Q. Was anybody with him?
A. To the best of my recollection, Bridget Sullivan.

Q. And she on the outside too?
A. No, she was inside, sitting on the stairs.

Q. Mr. Sawyer stood just on the top step, the broad step?
A. Yes, sir.

-----------------------------------------------------

Inquest Testimony of Charles S. Sawyer page 138:

Q. Were you there when Morse returned?
A. I was there when Morse returned, I suppose the time he returned; whether he had been there before, I don't know.

Q. Where did you first see him?
A. He came towards me from the gate. I stood on the steps at the time, standing outside the door and holding the door outside. He came along to the steps, and he says "for God's sake what has happened here?" I looked at him, I had not seen him, he was a stranger to me, I told him Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been murdered, been killed, something to that effect. "My God" , he says, "and I left Mr. Borden right at this door, and he told me to come back to dinner. "

Q. How long was that after you got there, as far as you can estimate time?
A. I should judge somewhere in the neighborhood of very near twelve o' clock, or a little after, of either way, I should say a little after.

Q. Where did you first see him?
A. Coming [from] towards the gate, along the walk; whether he had come through the gate or not, I don't know.

-----------------------------------------------------
page 139:

Q. What did he do when you told him?
A. "My God", he says, "what kind of a God have we got that will permit a deed like this to be done?" Something like that.


Charles Sawyer was not asked about this exchange during the trial. He was not asked about seeing Morse arrive at the house. And John Morse is not asked who informed him about the murders during the trial.

[Yooper]

Sawyer's testimony seems to have Morse walking directly to the door from the gate, so this is clearly at odds with Morse's testimony. Sawyer said the time was 12:00 or after, Morse said 11:40-11:45. That might be checked if we knew what the horse car schedule was, the time it reached Second street, and approximately how long it takes to walk from the car stop to the Borden house. Gathering pears could have been for the household, much as Andrew did, and Morse decided to munch on one before lunch. The comment "for God's sake, what has happened here?" certainly indicates an awareness that something is wrong, but does it make any sense for Morse to pick pears after that exchange?

It certainly is conflicting testimony. Morse said that he saw a couple of police officers, Bridget, Sawyer, Dr. Bowen, Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, and Lizzie inside the house when he arrived. Morse was then not the 20th-or-so person Sawyer encountered as he stood guard, so Sawyer should be fairly clear about what happened. He should also be fairly clear about the time if he is to be taken seriously. I expect there was a 12:00 bell rung if there was one at 11:00, along with various mill and factory whistles, so a 12:00 arrival should have been easily established. Sawyer wouldn't have to "judge somewhere in the neighborhood of...", he had an excellent benchmark for the exact time.

[Yooper]

One other thought occurs, Bridget would have recognized Morse, Sawyer would not. Bridget would have known to give him the 'news" about the murders, while Sawyer would likely have tried to send him away. It strikes me that Sawyer might have appeared somewhat neglectful if he allowed someone in the yard without question, although his instructions were to keep anyone other than the authorities out of the house rather than off the property.

[Allen]

Sawyer stated he did not know who Morse was when he saw him. I wonder at what point he realized John Morse's relationship to the victims. I have always thought that John exhibited some odd behaviors. But this has never convinced me he was in on the murders. I believe he may have put two and two together about who had done it after the fact. If he is guilty of anything, in my opinion, it was keeping his mouth shut. My biggest problem with believing Morse was involved was opportunity. When did he and Lizzie have the chance to plot a murder together? John Morse did not live in Fall River. He did not live alone. Lizzie paying him a visit would most likely have been remembered by the people he was living with. That would leave them to writing letters because neither of them had a telephone. Telephone conversations were not private back then anyway. It has always seemed to me that it was Emma and John Morse who were rather close. She wrote to him. He took her for buggy rides when he was in town. He seems to have been a likable fellow despite his oddities. He never lacked for companionship. He never lived alone, and he often traveled with his niece and other relatives. He was not what I would call anti social. Yet he and Lizzie did not seem to have socialized very often. So why would he plot with Lizzie to murder anyone?

[Smudgeman]

The eating of the pears is really irrelevant here from Lizzie and John supposedly eating them. Who cares? When I was a boy, my Grandmother had wild plum trees everywhere, we ate them all the time. We would get a paper bag and fill them up.She also had Chestnut trees. Blackberries were everywhere as well. My neighborhood had Crabapple trees all over the street, we used to throw them at one another, my crazy neighbor lady had ducks and duck eggs, we threw those too! All I am saying is, that any fruit trees that were available provided constant snacks! Lizzie ignored Uncle John when he arrived, and was probably annoyed that he showed up. Somehow I believe the arrival of Uncle John made Lizzie even more furious. She knew what she was going to do, and he was kind of in the way.

[NancyDrew]

Hmm,smudgeman, I guess we will all have to agree to disagree. Many of us here, including me, think it very telling that John Morse, noticing a stranger guarding the door, seeing people gathering around the house, and undoubtedly hearing agitation, AND knowing he was about to eat his midday meal, stopped to leisurely pick up pears and eat them.

I too, used to pick fruit from trees when I was a kid; we had huge blackberry bushes at the end of our street and my brother and would gorge ourselves...but then again, we weren't adults, approaching the home of our closest friend, who had just been hacked to death.

I think Morse's behavior, which includes the pears, is significant.

[Allen]

I don't think Lizzie even knew Uncle John was coming that day. None of them did. I don't believe she plotted a murder with him. I agree he was just another obstacle in the way of Lizzie doing what she wanted to do. As for uncle John eating the pears I just found it odd that if he is expecting to go in and sit down to dinner that he would eat anything first. If I am invited to someone's home to eat dinner I don't normally stop off and eat something first. In my opinion, Lizzie and Uncle John did not get along. They did not see each other or speak to each on Wednesday or Thursday before the murders. Some find this suspicious. But in testimony it shows they did not associate with each other on Morse's previous visits either. He claims not to have seen Lizzie on his prior visits a few months before the murders. Some find it suspicious that he showed up unannounced the day before the murders. He did have business to do with Andrew. The letter he carried did prove this was true. And if someone decided on the spur of the moment they would like to go visit relatives or friends there was no other way to show up but unannounced. They had no phones. You wouldn't always write a letter and then wait for a reply if you thought it would be nice to go see someone. It could also explain why John Morse did not bring anything with him. He was showing up unannounced. Maybe he did not know if the Borden's would even be up for having anyone spend the night, so why pack? Maybe they already had guests and there was no room. He could buy whatever he needed if it came down to that. And John had no way of knowing they were sick before he arrived either. He probably believed Andrew would get right down to the business at hand when he got there. Andrew was a business man at heart who even went about his daily routine as sick as he was at the time. In the heat and walking for blocks.

[Yooper]

How likely is it that Morse would return to the Borden house if he had been aware that the murders were planned for that day? If he was aware that he would probably be the first person suspected, he might have gained some time for Lizzie if the police had to go looking for him. He had an airtight alibi one way or the other, they couldn't pin the murders on him regardless of when they heard it. He didn't spend much time talking to Lizzie while the others were there so it doesn't look like there was any need to coordinate information for police questioning.

[NancyDrew]

I have two thoughts in response to both your posts...

Allen: At first I could see your point..I'm about to eat a meal; why eat a bunch of pears?

But then I thought: what if the food was just lousy? He had already been subjected to the Borden form of hospitality---warmed over mutton for breakfast (ugh, it turns my stomach just to think of it.) And they were all sick, possibly with "summer complaint." Maybe Morse was eating the pears because it was preferable to the what he might be served. He could beg off eating much dinner ("no thank you, for some reason, I'm just not that hungry." )

In regards to JVM just "showing up"....thank you for reminding us that back then, this probably happened due to lack of communications. I guess Morse could have sent a telegram, no? Or would Andrew have scoffed at such a waste of money and chided his brother-in-law..."you needn't have sent word; you are always welcome in my house."

Yooper: Good point. One would think that if Morse knew something was going down, he would have stayed away. But Andrew had asked him to come back for dinner...if he had stayed away TOO long, then THAT might have been construed as suspicious. Also, maybe Morse was the kind of man who had an insatiable curiosity and couldn't bear NOT to see what was going on. I don't understand why JVM confessed to the pears at all...why say anything at all? He seemed to give...I don't know, "extra" information when he was questioned. Do you agree?

Thanks!

[Yooper]

Anything Andrew asked Morse to do became moot upon Andrew's death. How long is "TOO" long, and to whom would it look suspicious? Morse mentioned the pears because that was his focus upon entering the Borden yard, pick some pears for the household in all likelihood. There is nothing extra about it unless we infer that his focus should have been something other than that, for whatever reason. Nothing he said leads me to believe that.

[NancyDrew]

I'm not following you...

[Yooper]

You posted that Andrew had asked Morse back to the house for dinner, so, if Morse knew Andrew was going to be killed, what difference would that invitation make? You stated it would look suspicious if Morse stayed away too long. Morse did not live at the Borden house, he was staying in South Dartmouth, so to whom would it look suspicious if Morse stayed away too long? You mentioned that the pears were something Morse confessed to, that it was extra information not really called for. I replied that it depended upon how you looked at it, whether certain assumptions were made beforehand. It is only extra if we think it isn't necessary, which implies that we think Morse should have gone directly to the house without going to the yard for pears. My answer stated that Morse thought it was necessary, and if that's what he did, why exclude it?

[Smudgeman]

Maybe Lizzie got even more paranoid and agitated when Morse showed up. Something was brewing in the household, and then her Mother's brother shows up unannounced. Emma is away, the police are away, I have always wondered why Lizzie was so interested in what came in the mail that day, and the parcel Andrew was carrying. Briget says Andrew had a paper or book, and Lizzie does not mention that at all in her testimony I don't think.

[Mara]

@NancyDrew re pear seeds as poison: Yikes! Interesting link. I'll have to be careful in the future. I note, though, that the source you cited clarifies that the seeds must be finely chewed before poisonous glycosides can "possibly" be released, or words to that effect. I don't believe I've ever done that. They might get mashed once before being swallowed with some pear flesh. You can be sure that I'll think twice about doing even that much when I hit the pear orchard this year!

[Curryong]

For irina! Talk of varoius kinds about pears!

[irina]

Wow! This one is for me! I have thought about the trail of pear cores that should have been left also. Especially in the barn. The core of a pear is very small and many of us eat the core. That also depends on the kind of pear, but juicy pears tend to have hardly any core. I'd never worry about any poisons in the seeds. If it was a threat it would be a crime to give pears to children. Many things are poison if eaten in too great quantity or eaten the wrong way. Peach pits contain cyanide but pickled peaches taste best if a one pit is bottled with the peaches. For the almond flavoring.
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I think pear cores in the barn would be fair game but it never came up. Knowlton did bore in on why Lizzie's hands were lily white when she supposedly had been rummaging around in the barn and had not stopped to wash her hands before raising the alarm. I think that questioning covered a lot of territory. Even I can't make excuses for Lizzie having beautifully clean hands after eating juicy pears in a dusty barn, then rummaging around in dirty boxes and not washing her hands afterward. That is one reason I reject the barn story. I know about barns and dust and juicy pears and juice running down wrists to elbows making sticky hands and arms.

[Curryong]

Were you eating pears as you were typing your post? 'Smile'. I do think it was strange that the question of the pears didn't come up in the inquest testimony however, when they had Lizzie on the stand. She may well have eaten the pears, cores and all as the fruit was probably very ripened and softened by the sun. However, I think Knowlton was correct to concentrate on the question of Lizzie's hands. You're right, even in the cleanest and most orderly of barns, (and I think Andrew's was) there would be some grubbiness left on hands (and hem of dress) if you were handling fruit and bits of tin and iron, and standing in dust.

[irina]

Pear season is over. I just pitched out the large pears I picked in the old orchard. They stayed green & got harder with age. I'll see if the deer want to eat them.

I think I finally understand why people say Lizzie's house was small. Studying the pictures above I realised that 92 Second is half the size of my old house. My house kind of has that layout but there are rooms to the right of the front entry and what was once a staircase that was situated like the one in Lizzie's house. With just a slightly different floor plan Lizzie's house would be a shotgun house. However Lizzie's house is longer than mine. So what I'm going to call a half a house is kind of like how a mobile home is made here in the US. That might give us a better idea of size. That is kind of small in that it is narrow.