1. "Fleet's Notes"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Mar-15th-03 at 11:50 AM

(A Brit, BTW, who married a Fall River girl).

One of the interesting aspects of "Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s" (which I am currently re-reading) is that it includes Asst Marshal Fleet's notes of his interviews with Bridget, Lizzie & JV Morse.  "The only known records of the police investigation in the early days".

Recently being discussed on this board was the timelines of Bridget & Lizzie.  Here's Fleet's Notes (complete with spelling errors, etc) re Bridget --

"Had a conversation with Bridget Sullivan.  Said she saw Mr Borden come in the house about 10:40 AM.  Saw him come in the Dining room go to the window and look at some paper which he had in his hands.  He then went in the sitting room.  Sat down in the large chair near the window, and left Lizzie Ironing some handkerchiefs in the Dining room.  Went up-stairs at 10:55 to fix up my room.  After I had been in the room about 10 minutes Lizzie called me down-stairs saying that her father was dead some one has killed him, go and get Dr Bowen and went for the Doctor he was not in and I went for a Miss Russell on Borden St.  Did you see anyone that you think would or could had done the killing?  No I did not.  I was washing the windows outside & did not see anyone in the yard or go in the house and did not see anyone but Mr Morse this morning and he went away before 9 o'clock, am very sure that I was not up stair more that 10 to 15 minutes.  I did not here the door opened when I was up stairs nor did I see anyone from my window."

Very interesting.  In the hours immediately following the murders --

-  Bridget mentions nothing about going to take a nap, but rather to "fix up (her) room". 

-  B claims to have gone up at 10:55, & only for "10 to 15 minutes".

-  B says she "...did not see anyone from my window", implying that she was looking out the window while up there.

I think these are part of what is known as the Police Witness Statements. This always bothered me because I don't think any of the witnesses read over these accounts and verified that is what happened, that is what they said, etc. These are police interviews and what in this case Fleet recalled about what Bridget told him. They aren't even quotes of the people interviewed really. And they were transcribed by Annie White, I believe, who was no doubt reading their handwriting, unless it was transcribed while they were speaking to her which I doubt. No tape recorders.

We don't know if Fleet asked her if she was looking out the window or if Bridget volunteered that. The police statements are very hard to figure out.

But as to the timeline from what is said she said here, it almost looks like she went upstairs to her room AFTER Lizzie went out to the barn.

Bridget went up to take a nap or rest.  At first she told the police she went up there to straighten up and added that looking out the window bit.  She did not want it known that she was going up to sack out - it would have sounded lazy.  She eventually admitted it.

Clocks back then were not all in sync like they are today.  Times that people mention in the case I don't cast in stone.  Bridget had a clock in her attic room.  There was a clock in the Borden kitchen.  I don't know if they read the same or not.  Bridget seemed not to look at the clock much that morning.  Every now and then I'll come across some person who says their clock was fast; this person set their clock according to the City Hall clock; Mrs. Kelly was an hour and a half late for her dentist appointment, she says due to a visitor's distracting her.  There wasn't a centralized place where all citizens could get the correct time whenever they wanted it.

You probably noted that William's gives the source of these "Fleet notes" as being from "Courtesy of Edward Sullivan".
And, no, Carol, they are not transcribed here by Annie White.  They are Fleet's handwritten notes, and seem to be the foundation of the Witness Statements, which were apparently considered later as a court document.
These notes are a wonderful mystery in themselves.
They are firsthand accounts of an Assit. Marshal, who is probably trained and has learned by experience to at least try very hard to get his notes right.
I asked MM at FRHS about these notes in our last conversation.  He got out his copy of William's and we went over this section.
He hasn't heard of Edward Sullivan, off the top of his memory.
He thinks these may be from the family of Fleet.
As you read them, and compare to the W.S. document, you will see important BLANKS filled in.  I believe the filing in was done later when these were typed up to be included in the document Witness Statements.
It is my theory that someone after 1980, which is the publish date of the book, and before the W.S. were available for sales, (around 1997?) filled in these blanks from actual testimony, possibly trial testimony.
Tina-Kate, wouldn't you really rather be having this discussion with MM?
What you chose to transcribe (thank-you) is very interesting.  Does it seem to show the first stage of Bridget's story, and do you think it changes after telling and re-telling?

(Message last edited Mar-16th-03  4:17 AM.)

Oooh, how marvelous!  Thank you, Kat.

The big point here was that I noted these were the 1st direct person-to-person interviews conducted by an official immediately following the events of that day.  Most books go directly into newspaper accounts (full of errors, etc), & source documents come from the legal proceedings (where everyone has had a bit of time to censor themselves).

Second, Bridget lied.  Of course, I was aware before both Lizzie & JV Morse had told falsehoods, but here I found Bridget amending her story later too.

Augusta -- re. "Bridget went up to take a nap or rest.  At first she told the police she went up there to straighten up and added that looking out the window bit.  She did not want it known that she was going up to sack out - it would have sounded lazy."  --  A good point; this crossed my mind as well.  However, there's more @ stake for Bridget here than her reputation as a consciencious maid. 

I'm extremely rusty on the precise facts of this case, & what I'm doing @ the moment is polishing & refining.

I did speak with MM several yrs ago when I was @ the FRHS, but I had not read so many books, documents, etc @ that time, so my questions to him were re the FRHS, not Lizzie.  I hope to either go back some time this year, or I'll contact him to check on any questions after I'm further along with my research.

1 of the things I like best about posting observations here is people will confirm or contradict, correct & point out things I've missed.  Like a living encyclopedia

(Message last edited Mar-16th-03  1:44 PM.)

If you can manage to make it to Fall River this summer, June or July, I have heard the happy news that Joyce Williams has been contacted to come to the Bi-Centennial Celebrations of that city and will be speaking on Lizzie there.   (Maybe at the CCC, I think?)  It sounds exciting!

This first selection is from Fleet's handwritten notes transcribed exactly by Tina-Kate (I did have to check in order to compare) from the CASEBOOK.  These are ORIGINAL to the man.
The next selection is from our Witness Statements, pg. 3 and all the bracket's show the differences.  One whole phrase is left out, highlighted.
I tried to highlight bracketed words to show what was in the original. 
So: Fleet=original, Tina-Kate, 1st selection.
        Fleet=Witness Statements document, KK, 2nd selection

"Had a conversation with Bridget Sullivan.  Said she saw Mr Borden come in the house about 10:40 AM.  Saw him come in the Dining room go to the window and look at some paper which he had in his hands.  He then went in the sitting room.  Sat down in the large chair near the window, and left Lizzie Ironing some handkerchiefs in the Dining room.  Went up-stairs at 10:55 to fix up my room.  After I had been in the room about 10 minutes Lizzie called me down-stairs saying that her father was dead some one has killed him, go and get Dr Bowen and went for the Doctor he was not in and I went for a Miss Russell on Borden St.  Did you see anyone that you think would or could had done the killing?  No I did not.  I was washing the windows outside & did not see anyone in the yard or go in the house and did not see anyone but Mr Morse this morning and he went away before 9 o'clock, am very sure that I was not up stair more that 10 to 15 minutes.  I did not here the door opened when I was up stairs nor did I see anyone from my window."
............

"Had a conversation with Bridget Sullivan. Said she saw Mr. Borden come in the house about 10-40 A. M. [“]Saw him come in the dining room[,] go to the window and look at some paper[s] which he had in his hands. He then went in the sitting room[,] sat down in the large chair near the window, and left Lizzie ironing some handkerchiefs in the dining room. Went up[-]stairs at 10[:]55 to fix [up] my room.  After I had been in the room about ten[10] minutes[,] Lizzie called me down[-]stairs[,] saying that her father was dead[,] some one had[has] killed him, go and get Dr. Bowen[.] [I ][and]went for the Doctor[;] he was not in[,] and I went for a Miss Russell on Borden street[St.].[”] [“]Did you see anyone that you think would or could have[had] done the killing[”]? [“]No[,] I did not. I was washing the windows outside[,] and[&] did not see anyone[in the yard or go in the house and did not see anyone] but Mr. Morse that[this] morning[;] and he went away before nine[9] o’clock[.][comma] [am]Am very sure that I was not up stair[s] more than ten[10] to fifteen[15] minutes. I did not hear[here] the door opened while[when] I was up stairs[,] nor did I see anyone from my window.[”]





(Message last edited Mar-17th-03  1:03 AM.)

"And, no, Carol, they are not transcribed here by Annie White.  They are Fleet's handwritten notes."  I know I read somewhere that Annie White had typed the witness statements, will have to check on that. Someone had to do that, did I miss something in your reply?  Did the police then, Fleet himself, type his notes out and this is what the book published? I'm sure you are not saying the family typed them out.

WHERE ARE Fleet's original handwritten notes? And all the other what are called witness statements which are police notes, are the original handwritten notes still around? Someone had to type them up and if we can't light on who did them then that makes them less valuable.

I protest them being called Police Witness Statements because no witness ever validated them. But unfortunately, for me, this is the name they are generally known by. Today if a statement by a witness is taken by a policeman, they have to sign the document or else no one knows but that the police didn't make it up, leave out parts, etc.. but, yes, this WAS 1892/3.

that is the frustrating part of trying to piece together this
case, things were a whole lot different in 1892.  The police would
have investigated Morse more I think, there is so little about him.
I read that he worked with a butcher in Iowa or someplace (I know
you-all will jump on me about facts) I don't have the reference
handy.  In this day of "Sopranos" thinking, if Lizzie wanted to hire
a hit-man, she would likely contact "hippy Uncle John" who liked
her and Emma, who brought along his butcher friend to do the deed.
They needed the money she offered to do the job.  Too simple? 
  She boldly walked into a local drug store to try to buy poison,
I'd say she was looking for a way...  Uncle John was willing to make
the money. 
  Nice to meet Jeffrey from another post, he also doesn't think
Lizzie "did IT" meaning the actual dastardly deed.  But still she
would be guilty by today's justice system.
  

Am I wrong in assuming you have Joyce William's Casebook?
If you don't have it, then you couldn't go further to look up this reference for yourself.
I think what is posted is clear, but if there is doubt or confusion, than maybe it's not clear.

The Casebook is edited by 3 people, Williams, Smithburn & Peterson.  The reason, I believe, that Joyce Williams' name is most associated with the work is because she personally probably wrote the textual parts.
Here is what she wrote to introduce these notes for the first time:

"Assistant Marshal Fleet's Notes of His Interview with Lizzie Borden, Bridget Sullivan, and John Morse

The only known records of the police investigations in these early days are the handwritten notes of Assistant Marshal John Fleet.  He recorded his questioning of Lizzie, Bridget, and Uncle John on the day of the murders.  Fleet's manuscript is printer(sic) here just as written, including spelling and puncuation errors and his abbreviations.  Illegible manuscript is indicated by _____.
Source: Courtesy of Edward Sullivan."

The book being published in  1980, and specifying these notes as the "only known records" makes the implication that the rest of the Statements were not yet found, or not yet known, as of the publish date.
Apparently, in questioning whether Annie White typed these particular notes, further investigation into the matter would be needed.
But these particular notes are the basis of this thread, not any other statements, until we may choose to compare them.
Now that one section has been compared, we can see there are obvious differences.  So who made the changes in our copy as we know it?  And who did type up what we do have?
The changes were made after 1980, if Williams' is to be believed when she states these are the only known records.
I would not assume too many members had this book, but I did assume you did.

Just a note of thanks Kat, for turning my attention toward the Witness Statements (available on the website for anyone who's interested), as I hadn't read them before.  Spent several hours lingering over them last night.

My Dad was a policeman in England for several years, & they were trained with precision, like the military.  After reading thru those notes, I can't believe training of FR police back in those days was very precise.  All extremely interesting, tho.  Some very amusing ones too.

They seemed to be chasing a lot of red herrings instead of thoroughly examining connections of people like JV Morse.  In fact, 1 of the most fascinating ones was the interview with Fredrick Eddy (of the Swansea Farm), who commented what a strange coincidence it was that JVM should visit the farm on Aug 3, which meant Mr Eddy didn't have to travel to FR (as scheduled) on the morning of Aug 4.

Too many "coincidences" with Mr JVM, methinks.

(Message last edited Mar-17th-03  11:32 PM.)

Morse was gone an awfully long time Wednesday.
Over 5 hours?

First few people in those days carried watches. They depended on public clocks. Then to the police force was basically invented after the civil war (NY city before it). They used ordinary folk, the militia in those days. Look up "hue and cry" which commanded all those to take part in the chase of a criminal.
(I could be mistaken here.)
You could also look up other professions in those days (19th century) before state licensing boards.

My question was: "WHERE ARE Fleet's original handwritten notes? And all the other what are called witness statements which are police notes, are the original handwritten notes still around? Someone had to type them up and if we can't light on who did them then that makes them less valuable." 

The paragraph in the book you quote regarding Fleet's notes doesn't answer my questions. Since the book was in printed form someone either had the original handwritten notes or typed out a copy of a copy of those notes. The book lists Edward Sullivan as the source but as far as I can see doesn't list what document Sullivan was courteous enough to give them, the original or a copy. If the book had printed the original handwritten notes in handwritten form or even been more complete in their references we would be getting somewhere. 

For you to say the copy IS Fleet's handwritten notes isn't true. Since we don't have them to check out. All we have is the editor of the book SAYING what they printed was ascribed to Edward Sullivan. And another later copy which is different yet.

"Apparently, in questioning whether Annie White typed these particular notes, further investigation into the matter would be needed."  That's what I said.

Kent, David. Lizzie Borden Sourcebook. Boston: Brandon Publishing, 1992, pg. 36:

The Fall River Herald, probably Tuesday,Aug. 9th, 1892, as earlier in the article, events of "Monday afternoon and night" around the police station are mentioned:

"POLICE REPORTS SUBMITTED"

"If it was quiet on Second street, there was plenty doing at the central station to keep the men interested in the case wide awake.  Orders had been issued by Marshal Hilliard that every officer that had had any clue to work out should make a minute report of the same and submit it in writing for further examination
by the head of the department and to be laid before the district attorney.  After all the special work had been written up, the marshal had a stack of papers a yard high.  These he thrust into a big box and waited.  He was listening to hear a call from District Attorney Knowlton, whom he had been awaiting all afternoon.

About 5:30 o'clock the marshal's private wire set the telephone bell ringing, and a voice announced that the district attorney was at the Mellen house and ready to begin business.  Tucking the big box under his arm, Marshal Hilliard started out of the office with Detective Seaver close to his heels.  They walked rapidly up to the hotel and met the district attorney in parlor B, on the second floor.

Here that precious casket, which contained the written results of four days work by the Fall River police department in their hunt for the key to the most intricate riddle of crime that has ever been perpetrated in this state, was laid open before the district attorney.  The most important papers were selected from the bundle and the three men discussed the case in an informal way.  An hour was finally set at 10 o'clock to meet in the same place to review the entire situation in a systematic way and to determine

HOW TO PROCEED

At that hour the men got together again, Mayor Coughlin and Medical Examiner Dolan being with them.  All hands took off their coats and settled to the task in hand withput any preliminary delay.  The marshal began at the beginning and continued to the end."   ....

(Message last edited May-11th-03  12:51 AM.)

If the August 9 Fall River Herald article refers to what ended up being the Police Witness Statements then it appears, from the article, that they were considerably weeded out and only what the police considered important kept and typed up although the article doesn't exactly say they were then typed up.  This makes a lot of difference, since the police considered Lizzie their prime suspect the police could have weeded out much that was favorable toward her.