1. "Got Milk?"
Posted by augusta on Dec-23rd-03 at 11:56 AM

I am very curious about the Bordens' milk.  I am wondering if Lizzie put arsenic in it and they consumed some at Tuesday's evening meal.

When Bridget had a glass of milk on Wednesday night, she woke up sick with a headache and threw up.  Did she drink the last out of that bottle? 

Is this the bottle that was given to the police to be tested?
How many bottles were given to the police?

I think I read that one milk bottle was tested for arsenic and that they could do a reliable test back then on it on or in the bottle.  And I think I read it came out negative. 

These were quart bottles, right?  Would the household still have a quart of milk that was delivered on Tuesday morning, or earlier, still in the ice box with some in it by Thursday noon?

Wouldn't Lizzie have gotten rid of the bottle if she had put something in it?  I would think it would have been relatively easy for her to do.

Did the milk come every morning?  Didn't Bridget put out the old milk can after rinsing it out every morning and a new one was delivered?  Or was a new one delivered only when the milk guy saw there was an old one out there to be picked up? 

I don't quite understand the bottle/milk can difference.  Did Bridget bring in a big milk can?  And then pour it into glass bottles?  How much milk would that be?  Am I asking too many questions?  (That's another question, isn't it?  )

They had two cans. A full can was delivered and the emptied one from the previous delivery was picked up and taken back. When a delivery was to be made Bridget said she left the empty on the back stairs over night for the next days delivery.  

What they did with the milk when it got there is not explained as far I can remember.  If the can was large I assume it was transferred to bottles or to some other container and then to bottles.  We don't know how large these cans were but if it was one of those standard milk cans it was fairly large. It would really depend upon the size of the can and whether they could use that instead of transferring it.

When Dr. Wood took samples he took one for Wednesday the 3rd and Thursday the 4th and placed them in separate jars.

Bridget was not sure whether it was Wednesday's milk that she drank.

(Message last edited Dec-23rd-03  12:28 PM.)

Thinking a little more on this I would think that they would have had to transfer the milk to another container.

The empty can when it was left on the back stairs was a clean can. Bridget said she cleaned them before putting them out. Bridget's trial testimony says that she went to the ice chest, poured herself a glass of milk and then went directly to bed.  No mention of cleaning the can and putting it outside so I assume it had already been done. So what she poured it out of was not the delivery can.

Also if they didn't transfer it, the only milk can there was from Wednesday's delivery. Tuesday's delivery can had been put out Tuesday night for return and picked up Wednesday morning.

Of course this doesn't prove that there wasn't still some milk left over from Tuesday that Bridget drank.

(Message last edited Dec-23rd-03  12:51 PM.)

My assumption was that the milk can was emptied into smaller bottles, then cleaned and put on the back stairs for the next delivery and pickup. Assumes daily delivery. "Cleaned out" to prevent the mess of dried milk? Ever seen this?

Is this not reasonable?

(Message last edited Dec-23rd-03  6:32 PM.)

I wonder if the hatchet fit in the milk can? 

Professor Dr. wood was thought to be out of town when samples and stomachs were sen tto Harvard.  It tiurned out he was there after all.
He tested the stomachs first.  He found no irritated stomach lining which would be consistant with regular poisons.  He received these on the 5th. 

From where do you get arsenic?  Is it in the testimonys anywhere?

Wood says the milk was too old to test for natural bacteria but was tested for poison.  Milk from Wednesday and Thursday, correct - not Tuesday that we know of.

Trial
Wood
990
A.  Yes, sir. I opened the box and found in it four preserve jars, one of which was labeled, "milk of August 3rd, 1892;", the other, the second, was labelled "milk of August 4th, 1892;", the third tag was labelled "stomach of Andrew J. Borden;", the fourth was labeled "stomach of Mrs. Andrew J. Borden;" and these tags were tied closely about the neck of the bottle, with strings, the strings being sealed. The seal is unbroken there on one of them at any rate, and I opened the jars simply by cutting the strings, leaving the seals intact.

Q.  When you got them were the seals intact?
A.  They were.

Q.  Those that were labelled "stomachs" contained stomachs?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And those that were labelled "milk" contained milk?
A.  Yes, sir. I first examined the jar marked "stomach",---
....

991
...and thoroughly examined the inner surface of the stomach which I found to be, so far as I could determine, perfectly healthy in appearance. There was no evidence of the action of any irritant whatever.
......

...Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.

Q.  In other words you found no evidence ---
A.  I found no evidence of poison of any kind.

Q.  Of any kind whatever?
A.  In either case. Both jars of milk were also tested in the same way, and without obtaining any evidence of any poison in either the milk of August 3 or the milk of August 4.

Q.  In neither?
A.  The milk apparently, I should say, so far as

Page 995

I could determine from seeing it in the bottle, was apparently in good condition, but no regular sanitary analysis of it could be made; it was so old at the time I received it.

It makes sense that the doctors didn't find any evidence of prussic acid poisoning in the stomachs or in the milk, since Lizzie never did get the prussic acid.  She only went around looking for some.

I get arsenic from the facts of the case.  Especially from the symptoms the Bordens suffered on Tuesday after dinner. 

Arsenic would not have shown up in the stomachs, since most of it would have been secreted through wastes of the victims.

So by the doctor looking at the stomach to see if it was corroded from poison wouldn't really cover the arsenic poisoning.  Maybe back then they thought it would.  But nowadays we know differently.

I don't have a source for the possibility of arsenic poisoning.  It is just my feeling and it seems to fit. 

I didn't know some of the milk was too old to test.  That's interesting. 

It seems to me I have read that they did have a test for arsenic for the milk back then.  But if they don't know if they got Tuesday's milk or not, it's a moot point.

Very good research, but what about the size of the "can"?
Given a household of 5 people, I would expect a gallon container. Am I wrong here?

I tried to do an internet search on this and didn't come up with much other then that during the Borden's era, milk was delivered in glass bottles and cans.  I did stop in an antique shop that I go be daily as they have 2 milk can lamps.  Yes, they are real milk cans that some clever person had made into lamps, and crackle-painted them and slapped American eagle decals on them, ick!  Anyway, I asked the store owner about how much milk he thought one of them would hold, together we came up with about 5 gallons of milk.  Personally I don't think the Bordens would get that much ever, maybe more like the average family, from one to two?  Wonder if their milk cans were smaller too?  Those milk cans in the shop were about 3 feet tall.  Do you think its possible that the milk once delivered went into a pitcher?  If most of it was used in a day then I don't think it would need to be covered. 

It sounds like the milk cans you saw were commercial ones, Susan.  Maybe ones straight from the dairy, or ones used in a restaurant or something.

There are a bunch of different photos of milk cans on eBay, if you type in "milk can" for the search.  Something tells me Andrew would have one of those plain metal ones with no picture on the outside.

There's an interesting website on the history of the milk bottle at:
http://www.earlyamericanworkshop.com/history.htm
Doesn't help us about milk cans, but it's interesting.

Bridget did rinse the used milk can out and set it out to be replaced by a full one.  I guess the Bordens had two milk cans then.

Yes, they had two cans.  See message #2 in this thread.

The milk must be transferred to a pitcher in the ice box.
The whole can cannot tho, right?
Maybe as the pitcher emptied, the can was used to refill it.
If they had milk delivery every day then the amount need not be much, maybe 2 gallons?
The pitcher is then put on the table.  Unless Bridget actually sets out a glass for each and fills it, taking the pitcher away.

Prelim
Bridget
56
Q.  What did you do in the kitchen?
A.  Opened the back door first, and took in my milk; when the fire was started, went in the dining room and began to get breakfast.

Q.  The table was all set?
A.  I had to put a good many things on the table, such as milk and butter.
.......
59
Q.  Then you went to work and baked the johnny cakes, and when breakfast was ready, you set on the milk and butter?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  The soup had got warmed over by that time, and you sliced up some cold mutton, and set on the table?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Then they came out to breakfast?
A.  Yes Sir.
...............
For Augusta:

Trial
Bridget  [Wednesday night]
.Q.  Did you go directly to bed?
A.   Yes, sir; I went and took the lamp off of the table and went to the ice chest and  took a glass of milk. That was all.

Q.   Just before you went to bed?
A.   Yes, sir; that was all I did; I went upstairs.

Q.   What milk was it that you took?
A.   Well, I guess it was the milk we had that day.

Q.   The Wednesday's milk?
A..  Yes, sir.

Q.   Did you use milk every day?
A.   Yes, sir.

--Bridget only tells of waking with a headache Thursday morning, when asked.  Her milk was from Wednesday, which was tested, so Wednesday's milk had no poison.  That is not what made her sick, unless there was natural bacteria which Prof. Wood could not check.

I think in those days they thought milk might be good for ulcers and maybe it was thought to be good for an upcoming hangover.  Diluting beer or taken as if it were food? (If Bridget drank while out that night)
Do we know if water was a common drink back then in the Borden area of Fall River?
Nobody talks about drinking water.

Trial
Bridget (con't)
A.   I unlocked my door and took in the milk and put a pan out for the ice man and a pitcher with some water in it.

--Is this for the ice man to drink?



(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  1:53 AM.)

On Augusta's suggestion, I checked eBay and found these 2 little beautys.


The smaller one measures 6 1/4" high and the bigger one is 7" high.

Do you think its possible that the Borden's milk cans were more this size?  I think these would fit in the icebox no problem.  Perhaps the milk can was washed out with the supper dishes at the end of the day and whatever milk was leftover was transfered then into another container.

Yes, I too have always wondered what that pitcher of water was for, something to do with carrying or getting out the ice?  I'll have to research it and see if I can find anything.

Those are good cans, Susan!



Remember this pic from archive?  Do you think the ice would take up a lot of room?
You think the can would fit and a pitcher?
I'm pretty convinced there was a pitcher at least for easy serving.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/Lborden/LBmilk.htm

(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  4:37 AM.)

Yes, I remember that photo.  From what I recall, that top area of the icebox that is closed is where the ice went into, cold air sinks.  Then down under that door should be a panel at the bottom that opens so that the drip pan could be set to collect the melting ice water.

I was trying to figure, what would the Bordens have kept in their icebox?  Milk we know for sure, probably butter too, but what else?  Eggs?  And thats where I stop, they didn't have all the prepackaged foods that we do that need to be kept cold, so, I can't think of what else could be in there.  Can you think of anything? 

Those cans, Susan, look just about right.  Just enough milk to last a day.

The milk was supposedly delivered about 4 to 4:30 in the morning. Bridget would bring it in when she came down usually after 6 a.m. (6:15 on Thursday per her trial testimony) Would milk begin to spoil if left out that long? After all these were warm days in August.

I should think they kept left-overs in the icebox, at least those left from lunch that they planned to eat at supper. Waste not, want not per Andrew. Also if they went food shopping early in the morning they would store the perishables (meat, fish) in the icebox until they were needed to be cooked.



(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  5:28 PM.)

Thanks for the testimony posting, Kat. So Bridget thinks she had Wednesday's milk when she came home Wednesday night.  "Thinks".  And Tuesday's milk wasn't even tested.  That pretty much blows that theory of Bridget getting some of the poison from the milk.  It does explain why she only woke with a headache (I'm guessing hangover) and barfed just the one time.  It didn't make sense to me that she didn't get sicker than that if she had drank poisoned milk. 

But she was a milk drinker.  So the chances are good that she drank Tuesday's milk and it had no effect on her. 

Lizzie could have put the arsenic in anything.  But with Bridget probably drinking Wednesday's milk, it seems less likely to me now that it was in the milk even on Tuesday.

I agree with you - there was surely a pitcher for milk.
Interesting thought, too, about if they drank water then.  I don't recall any source saying so.

Great picture, Susan!  And it gives us a visual while we're talking about the cans.  Also a real good one Kat posted.  That was on the site I mentioned also.

Well, I hope they put that mutton in the ice box.  I think they would have put any ice cream purchased from Hyman Lubinsky in there, too. 
Stuff musta went bad fast back then.  It couldn't have been kept as cold as it shoulda been.

Here's a Victorian ice box.  Doesn't look too bad.

(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  7:57 PM.)

This is an early Victorian ice box.  It's a top loader with a compartment for storing water that would then come out cold.  Price?  $1,450 at bargainjohn.com (I am not affiliated with the site).

Sorry, I might have gotten these two photos of the ice boxes mixed up.  Or maybe these are two pictures of the same ice box.  I found them earlier and made notes, and now I can't, um, figure out what my notes exactly mean ...     If anyone is really hung up on any difference, please visit bargainjohn.com 

(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  8:05 PM.)

I think when Bridget says she put out a "pitcher with some water in it" she means a pitcher of water for her use or for breakfast use. I don't think she means she put a pitcher of water out for the iceman.

Thanks, Harry.  Yes, I thought of that today as I came home from Christmas dinner loaded with leftovers that went straight into the refrigerator.  I was like "I'm so dense!", of course they kept the mutton in there inbetween meals and probably anything leftover from meals. 


Augusta, check out the Wheres the Arsenic thread for a little tidbit I found out about arsenic. 

(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  9:35 PM.)

I understand that fresh milk can last "all day" w/o refrigeration before going off. What is your experiences in August?

I was also thinking about how long it would take to get the milk and load it up and get to Fall River from Swansea?
The delivery was around 5 a.m.?  The milkmen must get up at 3?
And if Bridget brings it in around 6 it's already been out of the cow for 3 or 4 hours .