1. "Lincoln --- again."
Posted by harry on Feb-11th-04 at 9:23 AM

Here's an item in Lincoln that I have not read anywhere else. Page 126 of the paperback version:

"In connection with all this paper-burning, it is well to mention here that the broken lock that Andrew had picked up from Mr. Clegg's floor and dropped in his pocket was found on the mantel. It had been rolled in an unaddressed white mailing wrapper like those that lay in a stack, the top few addressed to Andrew, on a small table in the sitting room."

That's the first I ever heard of the broken lock being found. She doesn't say who found it or her source.  Has anybody read that anywhere else?

That's a new one for me, Harry. Too bad the source isn't more trustworthy!

I remember reading that in Ms. Lincoln's book and never thought much of it until now other than the thought that Andrew seemed to be something of a tightwad in keeping a broken lock in his possession.  Why is Ms. Lincoln not considered a reliable source on this issue?  Does that broken lock still exist?

Thats the only place I've read that also, Harry.  To me, Lincoln uses this as an illustration to support her theory that Lizzie manipulates facts, but, doesn't out and out lie.  Lizzie was supposed to have mentioned that she addressed mailing wrappers for Abby that day.  Lizzie burned Andrew's paperwork he came home with, searched his pockets, found the lock and grabbed one of the wrappers to put it in.  I guess all this in the space of 15 minutes or so?

I'm also curious about that stack of mailing wrappers that was supposed to have been found on a small table in the sitting room, where did she get that from?  I don't recall seeing that mentioned anywhere. 

I'm not doubting this quote, but is there anything in the Official Records for this? Or just a good novelist's theory?
...
The rule for newspapers is "two independent sources". Three guys in a drugstore do not make three independent sources.

(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  2:47 PM.)

I noticed a similarity between Lincoln's book and Fritz Adlitz' article on a conspiracy theory, though I'm not doubting much of what Adlitz wrote, as opposed to my once-favored Victoria.  It's the attempt to have every incident or event fit neatly into an interpretation of the crime.

If anyone can find testimony that supports that "lock in a mailing wrapper" passage from her book, I'll buy him/her a drink.  Unfortunately, this is more likely a clear instance where Lincoln once again invents facts to bolster her theories.  I love her book, but in the years with you all (and before this, on Dark Rose), I've become very much disillusioned.  When she writes (and I paraphrase) "Lizzie could never, in fact, bear rebuke, even from a child" I want to go back in time, find Lincoln at her desk, and shout "In FACT?" at her face, and then ask her for proof.

The idea that Lizzie wouold think she'd have to account for the real estate papers Andrew supposedly brought home for Abby to sign, which Lizzie, in Lincoln's account, burned, leading her to construct, as Lincoln calls it, a "simulacrum" with the lock and a wrapper is pretty far-fetched.  And this while Lizzie was also zipping around breaking a hatchet-head from its handle and scrubbing it in ashes.  She was Lizzie Borden of Fall River, not friggin' Superman!             

Lizzie testifies at the Inquest that, at Abby's request, she addressed some mailing wrappers in the sitting room after Andrew left that morning.

But how can Lincoln say the lock was wrapped in one of those wrappers and found on the mantel? How can she just say that?? Makes me CRAZY!!!!!!

 

Thanks, Diana.  I've been so busy lately that I haven't had time to do much searching.  It makes me crazy too when I know the simple facts of the case and Lincoln just tacks stuff on with no proof! 

Didn't the men who testified to seeing Andrew pick up the lock claim that he carefully wrapped it in paper on the spot? (Presumably, he carried scraps of paper about with him for just such an occasion.)  I seem to remember this from Rebello, but I can't find it just now.  Perhaps Victoria thought that the only paper the Borden's possessed was those wrappers--OR maybe Andrew had a couple of extras in his pocket left over.  Is the wrapping the only thing in question here, or is it the lock itself? Is the lock never mentioned (except by Victoria) as having been found on the mantel by the police? If Andrew did go to his room, could he have deposited the lock there?

--Lyddie

The lock was never found at all which is a mystery in itself.  I believe it was Mather who testified that Andrew picked it up and put it in his pocket. No wrapping that I recall. And when he left Mather he was heading toward home.

It has been assumed by some that the white package that Andrew carried when he arrived home contained the lock and that he made trip to the Post Office to get it wrapped.

Mather and/or Shortsleeves saw him head to the corner to go on Spring St.  The P.O. is the opposite direction and quite a ways to go so a trip there doesn't seem likely. Not enough time.

There is a great map in Rebello (pg 566) showing Andrew's last walk. Clegg's new store, where he got the lock, was just down Spring St and around the corner.

Frustrating as Lincoln is, still she was a Fall Riverite and can't
be discounted just because she didn't give proof of every little thing, her observations and comments are at least much more viable
than any one of ours.  She might be just citing newspapers and comments of the day and comments from her parents and grandparents.
This is valuable stuff, all we have really.  I don't see any motive in
her fabricating anything, her story was honest and the best she could do with the facts she had.  It is as good as any of the others. 
Rebello is just all newspaper citations, which again, is really all we
have. 

One of the reasons I have always respected Lincoln is that she seems to have been a writer of great integrity.  She made mistakes, she was never shy about airing her opinions and predjudices, but she herself admitted that she was falliable and she made a great effort to be honest with her readers.

She talks about how difficult and frustrating it is to rely on people's memories of what happened and cites herself as an example.  She says that for most of her life, she had a firm memory of living  as a child in the house next door to Maplecroft.  When she finally revisted Fall River after being away for forty years, she was astonished to discover that her childhood hme was not next door to Maplecroft as she believed, but was actually at the end of the block.  Very few writers would be honest enough to admit that to their readers. 

And Lincoln freely admits that her theory is just that...a theory that can never be proven.  She makes her case for Lizzie having suffered from psychomotor epilepsy, yet she is careful to remind us that there is no way to prove it, since the only real proof would be to perform a electroencephlogram on Lizzie.

I take all Borden writers with a healthy grain of skepticism, but I accord Lincoln a higher level of trust and respect than writers like Spiering or Brown who present wild allegations without any facts at all to back them up and then insist that they and they alone have "solved" the mystery.

 

(Message last edited Feb-12th-04  12:24 AM.)

Have you all read anything else Lincoln has written?
(I haven't).
Lincoln is loved like a comfortable old pair of shoes around here but that same pair of shoes would not pass inspection around your mother-in-law.

I cant say  that i seen Mrs Lincon as a "writer of great integrity". I find her a quite jealous woman. She looks down at Lizzie for the reson that she dont come from the same background as Victoria self (she beeing born on the "hill" and did not move there).

I also belive that Lincon sees Lizzie as a quite stupied person, I dont see it at that at all. And if Lizzie did everything that Lincon claimes she did, she was anything but stupid. The did not just got a way with murder, she got away with the murder of the centry!!!

But i still think that Lincon is a great writer and novelist....

When I was a kid, I read a biographical novel about Charles Dickens which she had written for a junior-high-age audience. I remember it as being quite good and having sparked my interest in reading Dickens' works.  Later, I also read "February Hill", mostly out of curiosity.  It's a romantic novel, well-written but not my cup of tea.

And, Jimmy, I really can't agree that she thinks Lizzie is stupid or that she looks down on her.  She thinks Lizzie was lacking in imagination (many intelligent people are), but that she was also very shrewd.  She describes Lizzie as being clever enough to grasp the post-murder situation and come up with a story that shows "a grasp of real probabilities". 

And in several places, she shows real compassion for Lizzie, talking about how the impulses that drove Lizzie are very human and common to us all.  If she seems judgemental, it's because, as she says, "I believe that she planned one murder and committed two and it's not a belief that can be laughed off or sentimentalized."

That's a good point for us all to keep in mind.  We can be fascinated by Lizzie, we can try to understand her, but if we believe she murdered Abby and Andrew, that's not something that we can condone or trivialize.  Abby did not deserve what happened to her and neither, for all his faults, did Andrew. 

ouch Kat, I took that mother-in-law comment too personally,
being a new mother-in-law, I'm thinking "oh no, yes I have probably
been too critical of Tristy, poor Dear thing...I didn't mean to be,
I really love her!" 
Good posts Albanyguy!

Jimmy, I sent you the Brown book today, Global mail. 

Quick! - send her a postcard- Tell her you love her!

Oh, I haven't totally discounted Lincoln at all, its always been my favorite Lizzie book that I own.  She does have her Fall River insight, the community and the times and opinions.  Its just she states that she checked all her facts and thats all that shes put in that book which is not true.  I've had to unlearn alot of what I picked up from that book, this forum and Dr. Kat have been most instrumental in that.  If she could just give sources for some of the information she has there, like the lock in the wrapper on the mantel that is not listed in any source document, I'd readily believe it. 

Psst-Susan-did you check your letterbox?
(It's not about Lincoln)

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive703/LBorden/LBLincoln.htm
Here for you-all- a pretty good discussion on V. Lincoln.

Hey remember that Baltimore Sun article that Fred Rasmussen wrote which you found Susan, Oct., 2003?
I had written him and he had replied he would send me the article on the Lincoln Interview.  I found that thread whilst looking for this other discussion.
I re-wrote the man tonight and will let you know if I hear back from him again.

Thanks very much njwolfe!!!

And Kat, I love all of you people here. But of chorse, rigth now Nancy i my internet girlfreind

Susan, you hit it right on the head.  I, too, have had to unlearn so much after trusting Lincoln.  It just proves that the most well-written book isn't necessarily the most trustworthy.  In her efforts to cross every T and dot every I, she seems to have somehow convinced herself she was not inventing "facts."  I recall also that her description of Lizzie's inquest testimony makes it sound worse than it really was; "it was madness" is how she puts it, I believe.

Where's Edisto, by the way? 

(Message last edited Feb-13th-04  11:06 AM.)

Thanks, Kat.  Yes, I too would love to hear what he has to say, it should be interesting.  Hmmm, my letterbox?  Theres nothing new in there that I could find?


Thanks, Bob, thats why I'm so glad to have this forum, it helps me focus on the facts of the case so that I can pick apart all the books on Lizzie.  Unfortunately, I still have some Lincolnisms imbedded in my brain, its a long, slow process to get rid of them all.

Yes, where is Edisto, I miss her posts. 

Albanyguy:

Well, when iam not so good at english, maybe i see Lincons writing i little bit wrong. But my impression is very strong here. I see Lincon as a person who really dosent like Lizzie and looks down at her.

Am I alone at this?

(Message last edited Feb-13th-04  6:13 PM.)

I don't get the impression at all of Lincoln looking down on Lizzie.
I think she tried to understand her best she could.  If anything it
would be the opposite, Lizzie was in a higher social position regarding the Fall River community than Victoria Lincoln.  In those
New England towns, that meant a lot.  Linclon might have felt inferior
in Fall River because her family didn't go back a zillion generations.
Jimmy, read Kat's link to prior posts on this subject, very good!

The Bordens did go back to the town's early foundings in the late 18th century. Being POOR is the one fault that can't be forgiven by that society, and others like it.
Is it different in today's small towns where most families go back for over 200 years?

The Borden family in Fall River was one of its most prominent founding families. It was only Abraham, Andrew's father, that dared to be his own man and shamed the family by being poor. Most of the rest were middle or upper income. If you talk about early Fall River History you cannot do so without speaking of the Bordens, the Durfees, the Chaces, the Anthonys, the Braytons, the Hathaways, etc.

Gramma