1. "Lizzie In Popular Culture"
Posted by Susan on Apr-25th-03 at 3:49 AM

I thought it might be fun to start listing all the different places that we find references to Lizzie Borden in our current culture outside of the books and articles on her. 

I found two today.  One was in Stephen King's new book that I am reading From A Buick 8.  On page 86:
"The harsh black-and-white photo of Edith in the Post-Gazette didn't help her case; it made her look like Lizzie Borden about fifteen minutes before she grabbed the hatchet."

The other was on Will and Grace tonight, Madonna was a guest star on the show.  Her character's name was Liz, Karen decides she wants a roommate and moves in with Liz.  Karen calls her Lizzie throughout the show.  They fight, Liz tries to throw Karen out and it turns out Karen owns the apartment building.  Karen decides to throw Liz out and says,"Sorry, Lizzie Boredom, you left me no choice.  Thats right, cut to you living in a dumpster." 

Will & Grace has used this @ least once before.  I saw an episode a few yrs back where Karen sez to Grace, "Back off, Lezzie Borden!"

Hmmm -- I wonder if Stephen King was ever a Bordenite?  Probably too tame for him   I wonder what kind of story he'd write about her??

I don't recall that one, Tina-Kate.  I find it cool that they can slip in a reference like that and I assume everyone who watches must get it.

I read an interview with Stephen King quite awhile ago and I think he mentioned Lizzie.  I've always wondered what he would do with the story as he is a born and bred New Englander. 

Methinks SK would probably describe every axe blow in all gory detail.  Then he'd go on & describe the bodies @ each stage of decay, then every step of each autopsy

What he'd do with the characters is anyone's guess.

Susan, that W&G episode was when Grace was dating Will's boss (Gregory Hines) & she & Karen were in a bar @ a yacht club.  Must have been @ least 2 yrs ago.

in the movie "night of the inguana," richard burton compares miss fellows (played dr. hoffman on dark shadows) to lizzie borden.

i forget the exact line, i'll have to watch the movie again, but he says it to ava gardner.

For awhile, SK kind of toned down the horror and gore and has written a few books that were just ordinary novels.  His newest that I'm reading though is typical SK, but, I do like his writing, he feels very chummy, like an old friend telling you a story.

I have seen some of the episodes where Grace was dating Will's boss, don't recall that one though.  I'll have to watch for it in the reruns, thats too cool, Lezzie Borden. 


Cool, Haulover!  I have never seen the movie, but, I believe it was the play script that I read years and years ago.  I didn't remember that line about Lizzie, I'll have to check out that movie now. 

susan:

see the movie.  it's a good one.  lots of talk and much to think about.

Bea Arthur on MAUDE once used the name "Lizzie Borden" as a punchline to a joke about a not-very-devoted child; I remember a distaff detective spoof in a long-ago NATIONAL LAMPOON that had the phrase "(she) walked in like Lizzie Borden looking for something to dice up."

Let's not forget the many times Lizzie and the folks have been on JEOPARDY!  The first time I can recall, the category was "Notorious," and the clue was a quote from that Michael Brown song, "...she met her Pa and cut him dead."

One of my favorite Lizzie appearances was in an old MAD magazine feature and reprinted in the paperback A MAD SAMPLER), "Mother's Day Cards (from children who didn't turn out so well)."

To be specific (and I'm sorry if you've heard this one before):

"HAPPY MOTHERS' DAY, 1892"

WHEN I WAS JUST A LITTLE CHILD
YOU ALWAYS SAID I WAS TOO WILD
YOU PUNISHED ME FOR ALL MY PRANKS
AND GAVE MY BACKSIDE FORTY SPANKS
AND THEN, WHEN YOU WERE GOOD AND DONE,
DEAR PAPA GAVE ME FORTY-ONE
I REALLY DOUBT, SWEET MOTHER DEAR,
NEXT MOTHERS' DAY YOU'LL BOTH BE HERE!

Your daughter, Lizzie Borden
  

Thanks for the additions, Bob G.!  I used to read my brother's Mad magazines when I was a girl and I don't remember seeing that one with the Mother's Day cards.    Thats too funny!  I know this is off topic, but, do recall who else had cards for their mothers in that issue? 

On Laverne & Shirley, Laverne went to a ball with Lenny &
wore a ballgown from Squiggy's uncle's wax museum & she
spilled punch on it & her line was something about ruining
"poor Lizzie Borden's dress". And of course she (Lizzie)
was on The Simpsons once -- she came back from hell & served
on a jury of some sort (it has been awhile since I've seen
the re-runs). Seems like she was trying to figure out how
to sit in one of those correct (but goofy looking) "posture"
chairs. Sumpin' like that.

Twice on THE SIMPSONS, if you count that Martin was going to play her in Miss Krabappel's class play - "40 whacks with a wet noodle," he said to Bart.  In the one where Lizzie actually appears, she's in a jury of the damned, in a spoof of "The Devil & Daniel Webster."  She wears SHORT-SLEEVES, though she does have a slight New England accent.

One of the other "bad" kids in MAD was Captain Kidd, I think.
 

(Message last edited Apr-29th-03  10:20 PM.)

http://yerf.com/rodrjenn/2.htm

Whoever did that drawing seems to agree with me -- Lizzie was crazy like a fox!

That's a fox?  I was trying to figure out what kind of animal it is.  I was torn between a doe and a dog. (I know it isn't a dof, though.  A "dof" is shorthand for "doddering old fool."  That would be moi.)

Today, in David Bianculli's  NY DAILY NEWS review of Showtime's "Dark Roots: The Unauthorized Anna Nicole," he writes "(The show) isn't just a hatchet job on Smith.  It's a Lizzie Borden hatchet job."   

(Message last edited Apr-30th-03  11:53 AM.)

  Ohmigawd!  Anna Nicole Smith is like a car accident, you don't want to look, but, something in you compels you to watch. 

There is an "Encyclopedia of American Crime" in the True Crime section of the county library. It has about 1/4 page on LB with the facts. 'She was found not guilty, but her refusal to talk about it led to suspicion that she was guilty' or words to that effect.
Anyone read it?

That's not a Borden appearance in "popular culture;" that's a specific reference to a supposed criminal in a book about crime.

How is it possible to do a hatchet job on Anna Nicole Smith?  She is a walking hatchet job.  A rich one, mind you, but still.  As Susan says "A train wreck".

I actually watched about 5 minutes of her last night.  Believe me, I had absolutely no idea of what she was mumbling about. Something about making a movie.  I can hardly wait.

Haulover, got to see a bit of Night Of The Iguana!  Went to drop a co-worker off after work, her car is in the shop, and when we went into her place her roommates were watching that movie!!!

It was the scene where (I think it is Ava Gardner) this woman in these big hoop earrings is telling this other woman that she is a lesbian in coded terms.  Deborah Kerr is in the background looking on and the woman who is being told off doesn't get it!  Burt Lancaster is telling the earringed woman to knock it off.  It sucked me in, hook, line, and sinker!  I so look forward to renting it! 

Wasn't that Richard Burton? ;}

Yes, you are right, Bob G., my bad!    Have you seen this movie too?  You like or no?

I have. And I loved it. More than any other Williams work, actually. It has just the right amount of angst mixed with dark sexuality. And since it isn't shown a lot on TV it hasn't been over played like Streetcar. It was directed by John Huston.

I saw it a long time ago, before I really understood it, I'm sure.  In Burton's bio, he talks about his horrific foot odor, and how he tried to deal with it.  I always wonder if Deborah Kerr (whom I had the pleasure of meeting many years ago) held her breath during that scene where she washes? bandages? his foot. 

let me know what you think about it, susan.

(it was richard burton in that scene.)  the lesbian vocal teacher is grayson hall (from dark shadows)

stefani, i agree.  it's about the different ways people wrestle with their demons.  then all these different perspectives interact in a way to bring about a very happy ending.  ending=problems solved, now we can move on.

Yes, Haulover, after I read Bob G.'s comment I went back to my post and was wondering why I wrote Burt Lancaster, where the heck did that come from? 

Oooo, I vaguely recall Dark Shadows with Barnabas Collins the vampire, I think I was very young when that was on or just not too into soap operas at the time.

Today's addition: the NY POST's review of THE LIZZIE MCGUIRE MOVIE is entitled "Ax Lizzie Boredom."

(Message last edited May-2nd-03  2:51 PM.)

OHMYGOSH

...are we living in an alternate Lizzie Borden Reality?

Don't you find it amazing after all the time thats passed and Lizzie is still around?  And people know who she is too, not too shabby. 

Here is an HR site that offers advice such as How Not to Hire Lizzie Borden!

http://www.thehredge.net/training.shtml

And there was an Ally McBeal episode about her as I recall. I found a link to the synopsis.

http://www.w3pg.com/ally/427.html

(Message last edited May-2nd-03  10:04 PM.)

Good find, Stefani!  Why you would have to worry about Lizzie in the work place though is odd, but, still, how cool!  Her name just keeps on going like that little pink Energizer bunny. 

Oh and one of the strangest of all-----

"Lizzie Borden" evolution

Definition: Most paleontologists agree that fossil evidence does not support Darwin©ˆs theory that species evolve over extended periods of time via the accumulation of minute changes. Rather, they suggest that most species remain stable for extended periods, and that change comes in short, quick bursts. Paleontologist Robert Bakker proposes that, when one population in an environment changes, it coexists with its ©¯parent©˜ population for a period. Rather than the entire species evolving similarly, the modified population gradually extends its range, outcompeting and eventually eliminating its ©¯parent©˜ population. Bakker©ˆs theory, not yet proven, is named for the infamous Lizzie Borden of the late 1800s, who was accused of hacking her parents to death with an axe, but acquitted for lack of evidence.
Related Words:
anagenesis
punctuated equilibrium

http://www.galafilm.com/afterdarwin/english/glossary/lizzieborden.html

Just got through watching "Forensics" on Court Tv. The episode concerned a high school girl in Texas who stole some chemicals from her chemistry class and poisoned her father.  He died within a few hours and it was attributed to a heart attack.  Then for some reason she told a friend what she had done and the friend eventually went to the police. The body was disinterred and the poison was discovered (28 times the amount needed!).

The girl was tried and convicted and sentenced to 27 years.  What made it interesting was that the girl was described as "cold and uncaring" to his death. And then one comment was made that she was "The Lizzie Borden of Texas".

Can't keep our Lizzie down.

(Message last edited May-10th-03  10:29 PM.)

That's interesting in two points.
One for the reference to popular culture.
The other was the girl was a teenager.

In all the crimes Stef and I had tried to find a similarity to a girl killing her *parents* she was always a teen.

Maybe if Lizzie WAS stuck mentally/emotionally in her teens she could still at her late age of 32 plan a parricide.  (?)

IMHO you're exactly right, Kat.  Lizzie was living as if she were still a teenager -- still under her father's roof and dependent on him for her support...going to Marion for a sleepover with her friends...obsessing over her wardrobe.  I think her reading tastes were even sort of adolescent.  I understand she favored syrupy romance novels.

In the Borden case Lizzie and Emma made sure the parents had a funeral attended by others, Lizzie left money to pay for the upkeep of the family plot, and she was not described as cold nor uncaring about her father ever, was she, except by the police who didn't like her restraint in emotional expression.

Almost every wealthy unmarried woman over twenty in those days could be considered an adolescent by todays standards because they could not help but remain in their parents care until they were old, it was the custom of the times, not something Lizzie did because she was strange or had an arrested development.  

The Lizzie Borden Syndrome is popular because people like to believe she epitomizes the evil woman, it is this mythology not the real person they are relating to.  I wonder how many people in Texas know that the prussic acid incident was never allowed into court testimony. They are placing their emphasis on the "parricide" issue, which not proved.

Well, I don't know how many people would consider chopping one's papa up with a hatchet to be "cold and uncaring," but I would! --And some people did describe Lizzie as the kind of person who was just that "cold and uncaring."  They did it in court, too.

As I've said elsewhere, this is not to say that Lizzie's adolescent-type behavior was not unrewarded, and maybe was expected of a Victorian girl in her position.

But this does answer a crucial question.  That maybe we can't compare a 32 year old "Miss" from the 1890's to a 21st century teen, except that when the heart is dark, there is criminal potential, and if the emotional ages are compatible, (for whatever reasons) then there can be a crime.  And these reasons of society putting pressure, or withholding pressures makes no excuse for murder.  The person would still be responsible, even if in Victorian times the Miss was treated as a virtual child.

I have not seen the movie myself yet, but, I have heard that Lizzie makes an appearance in the movie, Monkey Bone, starring Brendan Fraser(sp?) and Whoopi Goldberg.  Apparently Lizzie hangs out in the downtown area of the afterlife, its a limbo area of sorts, she has a couple of other baddies to keep her company.  Thats all I know right now of this movie besides that its supposed to be very strange. 

She has a couple of other baddies to keep her company?
Ya know, it seems like Lizzie is an old friend & it is hard to
think of her as being a spook to everyone else. That she is the
stuff of nightmares. That she is the scariest woman in Victorian
America & is on the level of Jack the Ripper in people's minds.
That is just so strange to me -- she is a crazy axe murderer to
most people. But she seems like a regular person to me. Maybe
I've been around roughnecks (rednecks?) too long to be intimidated
by Lizzie.

Yeah, the person who was telling me about this couldn't remember who the other people with Lizzie were, but, they did remember her!  I'm curious to see what part she plays in this movie, why is she in limbo if she did the killings and not in hell?  Its on my must rent list now. 

I've never even heard of that movie --
goes to show you I don't get out much.

It was never proved Lizzie DID chop up her Momma and Poppa. But whoever did kill the Borden's I wouldn't assume them to have an arrested adolescent development syndrome.

"...some people did describe Lizzie as the kind of person who was just that "cold and uncaring."  They did it in court, too."

Please supply your reference in the testimony. If someone did say that in court that I would like to know exactly who it was? 

Maybe you should ask how many wealthy heiresses are the same as LAB?
Or others who have suffered a similar tragedy? Not all break down in hysterics.

It's funny but it just came to me when I got up today where part of my impression came from as to Lizzie's arrested developement.
In her Inquest, about the whittled stick, she states that she hadn't seen it in many years, since she was *Little*.
86
A. My father used to keep something similar to this, that looked very much like it under his bed. He whittled it out himself at the farm one time.
Q. How long since you have seen it?
A. I have not seen it in years.
Q. How many years?
A. I could not tell you. I should think 10 or 15 years; not since I was quite a little girl, if that is the one. I can't swear that it is the one; it was about that size. (Marks it with a cross.)
Q. How many years, 10 or 15?
A. I was a little girl, it must be as much as that

The girl is 32.  She's referring to herself as "quite a little girl", in her first spontaneous remark, 15 years before, aged 17 !.
I remember remarking on this a while ago.


(Message last edited May-13th-03  10:57 PM.)

It made me think of another situation.  Yes, it can be argued that Lizzie decided to wait for Bridget to build up another fire in the kitchen stove for dinner, but, Lizzie doesn't even seem to know how to do that.  From Lizzie's Inquest testimony, page 68:

Q. Had you built up the fire again?
A. I put in a stick of wood.  There was a few sparks.  I put in a stick of wood to try to heat the flat. 

Q. You had then started the fire?
A. Yes sir.

Q. The fire was burning when he came in?
A. No sir, but it was smoldering and smoking like it would come up.

Q. Did it come up after he came in?
A. No sir.

According to Bridget's testimony, they used coal for the fire in the Borden stove.  If you want to get a coal fire burning again, you would have to shake out the accumulated ashes out of the grates and add more coal, not a stick of wood to get it going again.  If you want to start a coal fire you would start with a small wood fire and gradually add coal until it caught.  Lizzie doesn't seem to be aware of how something that is used in the kitchen day in and day out works.  But, this seems to be an outside influence in keeping her childlike, not having to cook, she doesn't know how to work the thing. 

The fact that Lizzie refers to herself in testimony as quite a little girl at 17 suggests that she felt herself mature at 32 and looking back she was able to discern the passage of time and the difference in being a grown-up adult vs the girl she was then, hardly likely she was a candidate for a retarded adolescent syndrome. 

Lizzie didn't cook because there was a domestic worker employed for that occupation. People threw papers into the stove evidently quite frequently in those days, from what we've read, instead of collecting trash for the recycler or putting them in baskets, so the fires kept going from that method. Also isn't part of the guilty Lizzie theory that she burned a dress in the stove.  If she knew how to burn a dress up and everyone assumed she actually did it when Alice left the room, then how can you say she was so childlike she didn't know how to use the stove?

I think the entire prosecution case would probably be a tad too long for me to include here.  The prosecution case was aimed at proving that Lizzie Borden was the kind of person who would commit murder and who did murder her father (and her stepmother too, for tht matter).  The case relied on a number of witnesses who described, for example, Lizzie's calm demeanor right after the discovery of Andrew's body.  Not seeming distraught at the violent death of one's parent could, it seems to me, be a sign that one is "cold and uncaring."  (It could also be a sign that one is in shock, and I think that's probably closer to the truth.)  I'm not quite as literal-minded as soom here, it seems!

BTW, the "cold and uncaring" quote isn't from the trial testimony; it's from your post, and I see that I didn't quote it quite correctly.  Sorry about that.  One more reason why I'll burn in hell...

(Message last edited May-14th-03  6:25 PM.)

I think it's a brand-new movie, isn't it?  (I heard somebody discussing it on TV yesterday.)

I don't have cable either.

  You do crack me up.  I don't quite understand what you are trying to say?  I know Lizzie knew that things burn in fire, heck, a Neanderthal knows that!  She knew if she put a stick of wood on the fire it would burn, yes?  I never stated she didn't know that.  My simple point was Lizzie did not seem to know how to work the stove in rebuilding a coal fire to get it burning again. 

Any child can start a fire, give 'em a book of matches and watch 'em go!  But, how many children do you know that can build a fire that will last and burn?  Hence my statement, Lizzie seems awful childlike not being able to get that coal fire going again, she doesn't seem to understand the basics of it.  So, I really don't know what point you are trying to argue with me?  You're preaching to the choir. 


Edisto and Kimberly, that movie, Monkey Bone, has been out on video and DVD for a quite a few months as I have heard it.

I think, ross, you were interested in some of my sources as to Lizzie's possible *arrested* development?
I wasn't sure which thread we were on, with that topic.  It is here now tho, hope you find it.  As a reminder to myself, it was good that you asked.
No need to reply.

"...BTW, the "cold and uncaring" quote isn't from the trial testimony; it's from your post, and I see that I didn't quote it quite correctly...."

Thanks.  That's all I asked to know because I didn't remember anyone quoted as saying that in the trial.  

Sorry you are so touchy about this subject, Susan. I wasn't aware I was arguing or preaching to anyone any more than you are. I made a comment on your comment. 

You said that you thought Lizzie didn't know how to operate the stove which made her seem childlike to you. I said that since she knew well enough how to burn a dress in it she was aware of how to use the stove. 

Do you know how hot the Borden stove must have to have been to heat old irons of that era?  Do you know how hot the Borden stove really was when Lizzie put in the stick of wood?  Do you know that the wood wouldn't have caught? Do you know how much coal was left burning in it?

I would think it reasonable to assume that since Lizzie frequently did iron her own handkerchiefs, as it was her job, not Bridget's, that Lizzie did know how to operate the stove to get her irons hot enough to use or she would never have been able to iron any handkerchiefs at all ever.

It is possible that the stove never was left to get down to the point where a new coal fire needed to be made during the day from scratch. Were servants of that era really required to take hot ashes out and dump them and remake fires in the stove in the middle of the day? I doubt that Lizzie would have been expected to make up a new coal fire just to iron her handkerchiefs or that she would have called Bridget to do that. 

To me, to assume Lizzie was childlike and doesn't know how to get the fire going in the stove is a too big a leap to take just because her piece of wood didn't catch that once.

Touchy, Carol?  I just said you made me laugh, you tickled my funny bone.  That doesn't sound touchy to me?  We were in agreement that Lizzie knew how to burn things, dresses, imaginary notes and sticks of wood.

I meant argue as in to "argue a point", perhaps it was too strong a word?  How about discuss?  Does that work for you?  And, "preaching to the choir" is another figure of speech, I'm sorry if you didn't catch my meaning.  I don't mean to be rude or forward asking this, but, is english perhaps your second language?  I've worked with people from all over the world and they didn't get certain sayings in english until I broke them down for them so that they understood.  If so, I can do the same for you too.  Its really no problem.

The stove, as far as I know it, was mainly used for cooking and baking. Secondly for heating things on it and possibly as a quick way to dispose of trash.  Did Lizzie cook or bake with that stove?  My simple point once again, since you didn't seem to get it the first 2 times is this, Lizzie didn't know how to work the stove in getting a fire going in it again.  I supplied Lizzie's own testimony on this.  Its all there in my first post.

It does not matter how hot the stove was or how much coal embers there were in the stove.  A stick of wood set ablaze would not produce enough heat to heat the metal of that stove in order to heat a flat iron.  Lizzie needed to add more coal.  Lizzie's own testimony on this makes it sound as though the stove wasn't very hot as she couldn't get her iron to heat up and eventually the fire went out.  I posted how you get a coal fire going again, I got the info from my mom who used to watch my greatgrandmother cook on her coal burning stove. 

I personally don't think that Bridget would have had to rebuild the fire from scratch.  I think those coal embers would still be live when she got up from her nap.  You shake out the ash so you have the live embers and add small grain coal on top of the embers.  When those finally catch and start to burn, you can then add bigger size lumps of coal.  Plus, it being summer and hot already, I would think that Bridget would let the fire burn down a bit so the kitchen wasn't so unbearably hot until she had to cook on it again.

Lizzie said herself in her Inquest testimony that she thought she would wait until Bridget got the noon meal and then she would resume her ironing.  Why?  Because Bridget knew how to build a coal fire.

It may be a big leap for you, but, I'm a big girl and I took that leap and I'll stay where I am, thank you.  Lizzie, to me, seemed very childlike and naive to think that she could get a coal fire going again by adding a little stick of wood to it.  As Bob says, thats my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Have y'all ever seen those women who couldn't change lightbulbs?
That still happens today -- it is weird to see women like that.
I also don't understand not being able to "boil water", maybe
Lizzie was one of these ladies? If women today don't know how to
turn an electric stove on I can see how a woman like Lizzie
would not have a clue about starting a fire. I'm amazed she
was ironing, even if she was far from a "little girl" she was
still rather helpless (shiftless?), would she have been able to
kill for herself?

First of all this, from the IMDb:

MONKEYBONE (2001)

"Life couldn't be better for cartoonist Stu Miley (Brendan Fraser). He has created a hit comic strip featuring Monkeybone, a petulant rascal with a penchant for wise cracks and racy antics. Stu, happy and in love with his beautiful girlfriend Julie (Bridget Fonda) is on the verge of big success, as his comic strip is about to become a national television show. But on the night Stu is to propose to Julie, he is struck down in a freak accident. While Stu's body lies comatose - and Julie maintains a constant bedside vigil - his conscious spirit is transported to Downtown, a purgatory-like limbo existing between life and death. Downtown has a carnival landscape populated by mythical gods and creatures who revel in the nightmares of the living. Upon his arrival, Stu learns his ominous fate: There's no turning back. And just as things seem like they couldn't get any worse, Stu's alter ego, Monkeybone, springs to life to stir up some trouble. Now, Stu must outwit Death (Whoopi Goldberg) in order to return to the world of the living before the doctors pull the plug on Stu's body. But Monkeybone has hatched his own plot that could thwart Stu's plans..."

Now, concerning Lizzie and her (lack of?) expertise in the kitchen.  I would guess that the Bordens had always had a "Maggie" whose job it was to deal with the stove.  We also know, as part of her light housework, Lizzie ironed.  Is it possible that Lizzie, one of the two young ladies of the house, never had to build a fire in the stove?  Maybe she only did her ironing when the thing was already ablaze, coutesy of Miss Sullivan.  Therefore (if this is true), she's describing a series of events that took place only in her imagination, and getting it wrong.

I must add, looking at the above exchange, that Lizzie and her maiden-lady friends did refer to themselves as "the girls."

I have enough sense and wisdom to not assume or prejudge in this case. Not change a lightbulb? I happen to have a younger relation who was married as she finished high school. After two years they separated, and she found that she didn't know how to change a lightbulb. Maybe kids today are spoiled by their parents? Too much MTV and other crap? Her brother did know how to do this, and other chores around the home.

To be fair, how many men can bake a cake, iron shirts, etc.?

Thanks, Bob G.  I can slightly recall the commercials for the movie when it came out in theatres.  It seemed very much like "Pee Wee's Big Adventure", but, after reading the plotline, it sounds more of a dark comedy.  Still sounds interesting though, I'm curious how Lizzie plays a part in this Downtown.

I remember a lady from church when I was a "little girl" who
couldn't change a light bulb -- she was in her sixties or so
and her husband had died & she had never learned to do anything
around the house beyond cooking & cleaning. She lived a few
houses away & would get my mother to help whenever she needed
a bulb replaced. And my second cousin was another who couldn't
or wouldn't do anything like that -- she was actually known to
say that the bulb was shot & she would get her husband to fix
it when he came home from work. Of course, she didn't cook or
clean or anything either & he finally left her for another woman.

And about men not cooking -- most of the men I've known have
been excellent cooks, I'm talking about construction workers &
mechanics, and they can cook, good. I've cooked for friends &
asked what did I do wrong & they would give me tips about what
to do. Men cooking is not unusual at all now. The majority do
it, and usually like it.

I've also always wondered if the reason Lizzie & Emma never
bothered finding a husband is because that was too much work
to have to be the head of the household & to take orders from
a spouse. It is easier to be treated like a pampered child in
your rich father's home or to have almost the same life with your
old momma of a sister.

Good grief, are we saying Lizzie was an 1892 Peg Bundy? 

Peg had red hair....Mmmm.

Well, I know a man who apparently doesn't know how to change a lightbulb.  His name is Keith, and I'm married to him.  He does know how to cook though.  That's his saving grace.  My Dad, who was a railroad man, was a great cook -- far better than my mother, and she knew it too.

Kick his tail.

Regarding the "Married with Children" show. The most perverse show on TV in those days?
'Where is John List when we really need him?'

I think I am pretty clear on your word meaning even without your insults in this last post, Susan. You said you thought I was arguing with you so you said argue, if you thought we were discussing something you would have said discuss. If you have changed your mind then fine. I would rather have a discussion.

Susan said, "My simple point once again, since you didn't seem to get it the first 2 times is this, Lizzie didn't know how to work the stove in getting a fire going in it again.  I supplied Lizzie's own testimony on this.  Its all there in my first post." You need not be exasperated, Susan, I did get your meaning, however, you did not see mine. And Lizzie did not ever testify that she did not know how to get the fire started.

Therefore, I will supply real testimony here to you and Bob to verify my point. 

I am sure your grandmother, who supplied the information on starting a coal fire, was correct as far as her experience. But we need to turn to the Borden house for information on their stove, on their experience.  At the point where Lizzie decided the fire needed more fuel she added a stick of wood, which you don't believe would have succeeded in building up the fire. You believe it needed more coal.

Your presumption in paragraph 5 that Bridget would have to add coal to the fire to build it up after her nap is false. Here is her preliminary court testimony regarding the stove and heating the soup:

Q: You did not pay any attention to the fire when you went upstairs at all?
A: No Sir.
Q: Was it a coal or wood fire?
A: A little coal fire I started in the morning?
Q: How did you usually warm up the soup with coal or wood?
A: In hot weather we usually used the wood.
Q: You let the coal fire go out?
A: Yes Sir.

We can see from this that Bridget herself says she was going to use wood to heat the afternoon soup, not coal as you said she must.  Lizzie said she used a stick of wood to try to get the fire going again for her irons. Therefore Lizzie is following the pattern of the Borden family during hot weather as regards the stove during the day. In her case her one stick of wood didn't do it so she left the task till later.

Therefore, my point is again, that Lizzie is not being childlike because she doesn't know how to use the stove (doesn't know how to use coal to start the fire in your words) because she is starting the stove in the same manner as Bridget did, with wood as Bridget herself says. My regards to your grandmother.

Loved the show. Wish it was still on! 

To each his own.

I love it too -- never really thought it was all that
bad. I never even thought it was farfetched. It was
played for laughs -- but it still reminded me of people
I know. Sadly enough.

Carol, I am sorry, I didn't mean to insult you, I just wanted to know what was the best way for me to couch my terms so that you would understand what I meant.  I am sorry, I didn't realize you were so touchy on the subject.  My bad. 

Thank you for posting Bridget's testimony.  So, from Bridget's testimony we get that there was at one point in the morning a coal fire going, Lizzie trying to start the coal fire with a "stick of wood" still doesn't sound like the adult who knows how to work a coal fire.  And, according to Bridget's testimony she let the fire go out, so, Lizzie putting a stick of wood in a cold stove with no fire going in hopes that it might magically alight sounds even more childish and wishful.

Q: How did you usually warm up the soup with coal or wood?
A: In hot weather we usually used the wood.

It sounds for the most part that Bridget would normally use wood to heat the soup, but, she doesn't say always, so, there are exceptions to this rule.  Could the murder day have been one of these exceptions, I don't think we will ever know.

But, bottom line is, we are still dealing with Bridget's coal fire from the morning.  I myself have lived in an apartment with a fireplace, I know how to start a wood fire.  A fireplace is a slightly different configuration, but, I believe the concept is still the same.  If the fire was completely out as Bridget said, Lizzie would have had to get some paper and kindling and of course, matches, and then add a few sticks of wood on top of that if she only wanted a small fire.  I think in order to heat those flats it would have taken some fire wood, big pieces of split log to get that stove good and hot.  So, she would have had to put those pieces of fire wood on top of the kindling and paper and then light it.

If there were live coal embers as Lizzie stated in her testimony, to start a wood fire with that, she would first need to shake down the drafts to get rid of the ash.  Then, once again, she would need to put some paper and kindling to get a fire going, then add her sticks of wood and let those get going and then add fire wood.

So, once again, back at square one, Lizzie doesn't seem to know how to work the stove.

The argument over starting a fire (!) shows how difficult it is to get people to agree. Yes, you must first burn wood to start a coal fire. So putting a "stick" on the glowing embers is a start.

I think we can assume that LAB, like others of that time, knew how to work the coal stove. But she may not be practiced in its use, and have a problem. Can we agree on that?

From a high moral and ethical standpoint, it was sheet. But from the popular culture viewpoint, it was very popular. As popular with whites as with blacks (another cultural divide). I think the reason is this: every family, no matter the problems, could say "at least we're not as bad as them". No match for the Huxtables!

But don't we know of families like that? Even if we won't admit it?

It depends. I think I know someone who is afraid of light bulbs because of a shock she received as a young girl. Pavlovian conditioning? Electricity is dangerous. You can shatter a bulb if you squeeze too hard, etc. Always use work gloves!

ANYWAY, back on the subject of the the thread, I just picked up a "Ballet Annual" from 1949 which has a page full of wonderful black and white shots of American Ballet Theater doing "Fall River Legend" on tour.  Now that I've been able to watch "Lizzie Borden" in NEW FACES OF 1952 a few times, it's apparent how much the scenery (the bare bones of a New England house), the costumes, and some of the choreography is a take-off of the ballet itself.

To be deliberately rude and then insulting while at the same time denying you are is very coy and one of your stronger methods in arguing, Susan, (especially cute when you add those smiley faces so people will think you are being friendly) but you really only insult yourself. I prefer to be direct and have discussions or debates rather than be pretentious.

As to your insistence that Lizzie doesn't know how to work the stove, I have offered direct testimonial evidence from Bridget as to how it is used in the Borden house in summer (and the attorney was asking her about that day, Aug. 4th, how she would start the stove that afternoon for the soup) and Lizzie did exactly what Bridget did to re-start the stove while there were dimming embers (Bridget said she was letting it go out not that it WAS out), so evidently you are one of those people who think that facts just mess up a good story.

It appears that you are insisting that you know more about how the Borden's stove worked than both Lizzie and Bridget. But you are just supposin. I doubt if you have ever actually tried to heat old fashioned irons on a stove like the Borden's or ironed hankerchiefs with those irons. I can see that you don't want to let go of your wanting to prove Lizzie was childlike. I offered in my post evidence to the contrary to those who might like an alternative view from the testimony. I am not asking anyone to agree with me.

Maybe Bridget and Lizzie were in a conspiracy about how to work the stove, to throw everyone off, (another lie by Lizzie) so they concocted a story that they started the stove fire in summer with wood when the morning embers had dimmed instead of doing it your way.  That must be it, Susan. 

Carol, I give as I get, if I feel that someone is being discourteous to me, they shall receive it back.  If someone is being cordial with me, they can expect that back too.  But, as Lizzie would say, "It depends upon one's idea of cordiality, perhaps."  If you feel I am being rude and insulting, consider the source.

How can you say that Lizzie did exactly what Bridget would do to restart the fire in the Borden stove?  Lizzie never did get the fire started again, Bridget would have, it was part of her job.  I believe that Bridget never said that she was letting the fire go out:

Q: You let the coal fire go out?
A: Yes Sir.

She agreed that she let it go out.  Whose letting facts get in the way of what they suppose?

I am not insisting that I know how to work the Borden's stove better than Bridget, I have never once questioned Bridget's abilities with the stove, you are putting words in my mouth, one of your clever little tricks in arguing a point, I see.  It is Lizzie's abilities with the stove that I called into question, not Lizzie's ironing abilities.  She obviously knows how to do that, lay them on a hot stove until they are hot and proceed to iron.  So far you have not offered any testimony that states that Lizzie knew how to build a fire in the Borden stove.  And until I hear something that states otherwise, I will stick to my guns.  Why its so important to you that I believe otherwise is beyond me?  Lizzie was childlike in many other ways, I don't blame her for it though, it was the times and household she was living in.  I am not asking anyone to agree with me either, its just something that I noticed and thought I would share.  You have confronted me on me belief and I have shown you why I still believe it to be so.

Lizzie and Bridget may have been in some sort of conspiracy with many things on the murder day, but, I hardly think that the stove was one of them.  I don't claim to be an expert on it, but, I can start you a nice wood fire, from scratch or with embers.  I think fire pretty much works the same way now as it did in 1892. 

carol:

if i may interject a well-meaning suggestion:  i have personally found that if someone words something to me that seems disrespectful, it is usually because of very personal associations i have placed on certain words or phrases.  i think the best solution is to delete the offense in your own mind, and proceed in a way as to advance the subject.  it's generally counterproductive to go backward and get bogged down in some point of confusion which probably meant very little in the first place.

Susan, I hadn't thought of it this way before, but maybe Bridget did  not worry about that fire in the stove because she knew she wasn't making any lunch that day...  Nor supper.
She may even had known, or thought, she would not ever have to cook on that stove again, and there IS a conspiracy and there IS a reason why it is described in questioning as *letting the fire go out.*  That could be just a story she told, not her regular routine at all in the summer.
How would we ever know, except if we believe her.
At the Preliminary, Bridget pretty much says she had nothing to do with the fire after the breakfast:
"  I did not see the fire at all."
and
"After getting breakfast, and washing my dishes, I did not see the fire again. I had no business with it."

It is the suggestion of the questioner that Bridget "let the fire go out."  All Bridget is saying is she cared nothing about the fire after breakfast.


(Message last edited May-25th-03  12:46 AM.)

I think you may be on to something, Kat.  I've been mulling over what Bridget has said there and what she hasn't said.  My thought is since the stove is her domain, why wouldn't she be aware of it?  She has to get up from her nap, I assume normally that she'd get up around 11:30, from her Preliminary?  Go down, check on the status of the stove.  Build a fire and get the stove hot again to heat that soup up, she basically has a half hour to do that, I'm assuming that the Bordens ate their dinner at 12:00, their noon meal.  It doesn't seem to be quite enough time, I feel like its cutting it close.  I'm thinking about 10 to 15 minutes to get a wood fire going, I don't know how long it would take to heat up a section of a cast iron stove, maybe 10 minutes or so?  And to heat the soup on it, maybe another 8 minutes.  Oh, and Bridget did mention that day that there was to be potatoes in the soup, so, she would have to wash them, peel and chop them and then boil them in the soup until soft.  Alot to accomplish in half an hours time.  I think dinner would have been late that day, or, the thought that there wasn't any dinner that had to be made could possibly enter the equation. 

Osama Bin L. said that his group will terrorize and destroy America and Americans who they consider the infidels, he sponsored the Twin Towers destruction and planned other acts of disrespect.  Our military leaders placed emphasis on the word terrorize. If they would have taken your advice and just deleted the offense in their minds Saddam Hussein would still be in Iraq torturing his people and America might now be minus a few cities drifting along without any defense measures such as a war on terror. My example is extreme so that you might grasp the significance of attempting to decide for others what they think worth pursuing.  

And, if I may interject a well meaning suggestion, haulover: If you have further advice address it to ALL members of the forum.

Rays said: "I think we can assume that LAB, like others of that time, knew how to work the coal stove. But she may not be practiced in its use, and have a problem. Can we agree on that?"

Very sensible comments.  Lizzie knew how to work the stove but she didn't do the cooking every day, etc. which would make her as you say "practiced," she was probably only practiced in heating flats and boiling water.

 

Susan, your new twist on the Golden Rule is remarkable but I decline to take responsibility for your or anyone else's negative comments. You will just have to own your own posts.  There is also, unfortunately, a certain clique on this forum who resents anyone vigorously pursuing the credibility of Lizzie Borden. Usually you are not that extreme.

"How can you say that Lizzie did exactly what Bridget would do to restart the fire in the Borden stove?" Because Lizzie did exactly what Bridget said she would do to restart the fire in the Borden stove in the summer. Lizzie put in a stick of wood but it just didn't catch, Bridget said she would be starting the soup for the noon meal by putting in wood not coal. You insist that coal was needed. I am going by what the evidence says.

"Q: You let the coal fire go out?
A: Yes Sir."
The attorney was asking this question in court long after Aug. 4th, which is why he is using the past tense "let."  I used the word "letting" the fire go out in my sentence because I was referring to what Bridget did on August 4th, to particularize between whether the fire was all the way out or going out. It all means the same thing, no matter which form of let is used....Bridget was not applying fuel to the fire after she finished breakfast and her dishes, she had nothing more to do with it until she was to start the noon meal, she was letting it go out, she let it go out, it was going out and if not revived by wood would be stone cold dead out.

I don't have to offer any evidence that Lizzie knew how to build a fire in the Borden stove from scratch. I don't really care whether she knew how or not. There isn't any evidence that I know of to say she did Bridget's job for her. There isn't any evidence that says Lizzie didn't know.  Lizzie wasn't supposed to start the stove fire in the morning, Bridget did that. All the information you gave on how to start a coal fire was very informative in general but didn't pertain to my point.

Lizzie knew how to get the fire going when she needed to because she ironed her handkerchiefs with flats that became hot on that stove. To do so she used wood, tossed in wood, at least in the summer sometime after Bridget started it in the morning.  There is evidence from Bridget that Lizzie knew how to use the stove in such a manner.
Bridget saw Lizzie ironing, Lizzie said she was ironing, Bridget saw the flats upon the stove, Lizzie frequently ironed her own hankies and was the only party to iron her own hankies. Another woman during Aug. 4th carried the handkerchiefs that had been ironed that morning up to Lizzie's room. There is no evidence that says that the stove needed to be started such as you describe for Lizzie to have ironed hankies. That she didn't succeed in completing her job of ironing that day to me doesn't have anything to do with her not knowing how to operate the stove.

I have not confronted you with anything, Susan.  I took a differing approach to the issue and presented my reasonings. I have no desire to change your beliefs.  The issues that have been brought up here are valid and I am sure others have learned something from the posts.

Personally, I don't iron handkerchiefs.

From the site Harry posted with the test on whether you were a serial killer or not, I found this comic. 

Carol, I don't know that I added anything new or remarkable to the Golden Rule, it is what it is.  I totally own and take responsibility for what I post, it is the tenor of them that is affected by what other people post.  How can you lump me into a group that doesn't find Lizzie credible when I am going by Lizzie's own Inquest testimony?  I am treating what she says as trustworthy, she put a stick of wood on the embers to try to get the fire restarted, and I believe her.  Hence my original statement that Lizzie seems awful childlike going about building a wood fire to do her ironing.

Lizzie never did do exactly as Bridget said she would do, Bridget would build a fire, not just throw "a stick of wood" on the embers.  It would have been a fire that would have had to have lasted long enough and burn hot enough to heat that part of the stove to heat the soup.  Bridget's testimony stated that there were to be potatoes added to the soup for dinner, those potatoes would have had to boil for quite awhile to cook them.  That sounds to me like a pretty decent sized wood fire to do that.  A "stick of wood" would never do that.  I never insisted that Bridget had to use coal per se, only if she wanted to restart a coal fire.  Since you have posted Bridget's testimony that it would have been a wood fire for the heating of the noon meal, I don't know why we are going back to the coal?

Fine, Bridget let the fire go out.  It was a coal fire, one does not revive a coal fire with wood.  Coal is the fuel, more coal would need to be added to continue the coal fire.  Once the coal is spent, its spent.  If a stick of wood was added to the embers and if it caught fire and burned, you would have just that, a stick of wood that was on fire, not a fire per se.  Lizzie didn't make any preparations to build a fire, one that would last to continue to heat her flats, she just threw in that one stick of wood.

How can you refute my idea if you can't offer any evidence to the contrary?  And yes, it was Bridget's job to get the fire going in the stove for the dinner and Lizzie made a weak attempt at duplicating that act.  I have never quite understood why it was so important to Lizzie to iron her own hankies.  If Bridget can iron Lizzie's blouses and skirts and underthings and possibly even her menstrual cloths, why not her hankies too?  I am not disputing the fact, I am just curious as to why this is so.  Lizzie not finishing her ironing has everything in the world to do with her not being able to get that stove lit again!  She says so herself, its supposed to be what prompted her actions of going out to the barn and deciding to go upstairs to sit down and discovering Andrew's body.  No fire=no heat=no hot flats=no ironing.

From Lizzie's Inquest testimony, page 78:

Q. What had become of the ironing?
A. The fire had gone out.

Q. I thought you went out because the fire was not hot enough to heat the flats?
A. I thought it would burn, but the fire had not caught from the few sparks.

Q. So you gave up the ironing and was going upstairs?
A. Yes, sir, I thought I would wait till Maggie got dinner and heat the flats again.

Either you believe in Lizzie's credibility or you don't, I'm choosing to believe what she says here.

Confront, oppose, differing approach, however it is put, I felt that you were questioning what I had posted and I responded with all the evidence I could find to back it up, simple enough.  Somewhere along the lines it seems as though this has become a personal contest, and I have responded accordingly.  Thank you for seeing my issues as valid, I appreciate that.  I guess we have come to the point we have to just agree to disagree on this.

Personally, I don't own any hankies to iron, its Kleenex all the way for me. 

Since this thread was supposed to be abbout Lizzie connections in contemporary culture, I wanted to point out a very unique film (now on DVD).  Titled "The Weight of Water" it stars Sean Penn and Elizabeth Hurley.  Sean plays a Pulitzer Prize winning writer and his wife is mag photographer engrossed in "The Murder at Smuttynose" (written by Edmund Pearson).  Joined by another couple, they ttake a luxury sailboat to The Shoals to the actual site of the 1873 (?) murders.  This Indie film is very clever in its directorial style in that it is neither retrospective, no flashbacks or flash forwards, rather almost scene for scene it switches back and forth telling the story of the murder of 2 woman by accused Louis Wagner while paralelling (sp) the modern story.  Loaded with sexual tension and dysfunctional relationships, the buildup to the actual murders is tension packed.  In one scene, they all 4 sit around talking about classic crimes and Lizzie Borden comes up.  They get it right about her being acquittal by an all male jury.  Lots of focus on the axe, as Sean's character says; "Why an axe?  There's a certain intimacy with an axe."  The whole time I watched this film I was thinking of both the true story (which is one of my favorites) and the Lizzie Borden case.  I recommend this movie.  Available at your local rent-a-flick outlet.  "The Weight of Water".  It's different. 

-Victor

the weight of water.  i'll check it out, fredd.

I just read that book last month.

So now its poor Bridget again? She was never an official suspect like LAB. Also, why would miser Andy keep or want a coal fire on a hot August day? "Just enough coal for breakfast, then bank the fire" (my assumed quote). Imagine that kitchen on a hot humid August day? No wonder LAB went out under the cool shade of the pear trees!

Where all the vomit and slops were, oh and flies.

Thanks, F/V, and thanks for a post dealing with the subject of the thread...

...which is not to say that interesting tangents don't arise from time to time!  Still, maybe we should continue the stove discussion on its own thread.  What's the proper message board approach to this kind of thing?

I'm not just asking to be a pain - I'd really like to know.

Oh, and speaking of that disturbing cartoon; when I was in junior high, I fabricated a mannequin of Lizzie out of old lampshades, an old blouse and gloves, a styrofoam wig form, and a borrowed (from my mom) beach hat with a veil*...and, of course, a makeshift hatchet.  There's a picture of youthful me (I had hair then!) and my work in my yearbook which, if I ever get a scanner, I will be happy to share with y'all.

*My damned art teacher later pinched the hat, which she admired, I'm totally convinced.  Her name was Sperber!  Miss Sperber!

Ooooh, I love that mannequin story.  Once when my kids were young, they called me at work to ask if they could go to a nearby department store to pick up a mannequin that the store was going to give them for free.  I told the housekeeper it was OK to let 'em go.  Unknown to me, they were going to the downtown DC branch, not the one near our house.  So they emerged from the department store, with the life-sized adult, female mannequin, whose torso was split in half just under the rib cage.  My daughter and her friend (clever girls!) assigned little brother the task of toting the lower half of the mannequin, long legs and all, to a nearby bus stop.  When the next bus stopped, they asked, "How much fare for the mannequin?" and the bus driver replied, "I don't know.  I never had one before."  He decided mannequins could ride free.
I was horrified when I got home and found out this crew oif munchkins had gone all the way into downtown DC and brought home a "nekkid lady" (as my sons called it) on the bus.  That must have been a fun ride for commuters.  We had a great time with Miss K. (who was named after the department store) for years after that.  She was a regular feature of our Halloween celebrations.  Unfortunately, she never posed as Lizzie.

Of course I was questioning what you posted and I gave my differing views and will continue to when I differ with something.  This is a forum for ideas, I'm sorry if you think of it as a contest.  But I am not responsible for your imagined negative reactions to my posts and consequent remarks.  I directed no insults at you. 

I'll try this again. There is nothing in the testimony that says Lizzie is childlike and can't work the stove because she tries to restart the fire by adding a stick of wood.  That is your conclusion, but it is not testimony.  Fine.  I gather that you think now that the credibility of her testimony here is what makes her incredibly childlike. I disagree.  She ironed her own hankies probably for years and that the fire didn't catch this once she was wise not childlike to wait until Bridget restarted it with even more wood later. Why should Lizzie take the time to build a new wood fire at that time when there was an employee to do that in a short time.  I disagree and Lizzie does too in the testimony, that a coal fire cannot be revived using wood, because that is what she was doing. It might have caught with two sticks for all I know and been enough to finish her work.  I was saying that Lizzie not finishing her ironing didn't mean she didn't know how to work the stove, not that it didn't have anything to do with her not re-lighting the stove.

The attorney asked Bridget what she was going to use to restart the fire for the noon day meal on Aug. 4th.  She said wood. The attorney made sure in his question that she did not mean coal. She didn't give the attorney the number of sticks of wood, just that it was wood she would use. Wood is the important point, not the number of sticks used by either woman.

Yes, Susan, yes, I think you've got it now! This is what I was trying to explain. The stove was started in the morning by coal and wood. But at the Borden house in summer when the initial morning fire had burned down, the noon day meal was cooked with wood fuel not coal.

Can't get away from Lizzie!

Spent a lot of time this w/e finishing off Victoria Lincoln.  When I finished today, I decided to get some supper & watch a little TV.  I checked out a local program that features an annual June event here in Toronto called IdeaCity, where many great minds are brought in each year to speak & schmooze.  Today, 1 of the featured speakers was forensic anthropologist & author, Kathy Reichs --



Not 5 minutes into watching her, she spouts:  "One of the latest trends in forensic anthropology is to exhume famous people, such as Lizzie Borden..."

Gawd!  We were just talking about this recently here.  Sorry Ms Reichs, but if anyone was going to dig up Lizzie, I'm sure we'd have heard of it by now!

What would we want with deadLizzie anyway?
She can't exactly be questioned.
Grave-cam?

--Don't mind me I'm over-tired. 

Oh Kat...don't wear yourself out...we need you!

I'd think Andrew & Abby would be the ones to exhume.  However, bringing up Liz might provide proof of long-term drug use.

I'm fascinated by the work of Kathy Reichs (both her writing and forensic anthropology).  Made me almost scream when she brought up Lizzie (of all people!!!).  Would be amazing if she were allowed to investigate the Borden case.  Makes me wonder if she's considered it...

someone not knowledgeable at all about the case asked me if DNA tests were possible now.  i don't know.  bodies? hatchets?  old bloody rags?  hair?  for ex., if lizzie's undergarment with the tiny blood spot is still somewhere -- match that up with blood on abby's rag?

i have no idea.  who knows something?

kat:

i suppose this is morbid, but i actually can see one of those reality movies.  similar to the blair witch project.  we'd all go out with videotape and film and exhume all the bordens. maybe improvise from there?

DNA tests are often done on people dead longer than Abby, Andrew or Lizzie, so I'm sure such tests could be done on them, if the material were available and if there was any reason to do them.  I haven't heard that Lizzie's petticoat has been preserved anywhere.  (Maybe she burned it?)  Unless the handleless hatchet is the murder weapon (which it probably isn't), there's no weapon to test.  I believe the FRHS has some bloodstained fabric from the guest room, but that blood is probably Abby's, so that wouldn't help to find a solution to the mystery.  None of these people had descendants with whom their DNA could be compared, but there are more distant relatives, I'm sure. DNA from the remains could be compared with DNA from something else --but what?  I've never thought it would be much help to test anything from the Borden murders for DNA, except maybe that spot on Lizzie's petticoat.  If it had proved to be Abby's blood, she would definitely have had some 'splaining to do, becuse she claimed she didn't even know Abby was dead until somebody else found the body.

Late last night (early this morning) on "Countdown" (either MSNBC or CNBC), the host introduced a piece about the Laci Peterson case by mentioning LIZZIE BORDEN!!  He said something like, "During the trial of Lizzie Borden 109 years ago, prosecutors produced a diary that claimed that Lizzie was pregnant outside of marriage...and the diary was later found to be a fake."  He went on to say that prosecutors were claiming that there is computer evidence that Scott Peterson purchased a date rape drug.  The implication is that he drugged Laci and then killed her, but the reporter said, even if this were true there would have to be more evidence."  SHADES OF PRUSSIC ACID???

A DNA test could be done on Andrew, William S., and Lizzie or Emma. That would settle the question of relation. Impossible to do, of course, w/o legal permission.
You can't just dig up a body for idle curiosity!

Very interesting Robert! 

Well, since we have access to the trial transcript, we can certainly say with authority that no such "diary" was introduced at the trial, which I believe was 110 years ago this month, not 109.  (Maybe the show was taped earlier?)  It sounds as if someone has gotten confused about that McHenry-Trickey story that the Boston Globe published and that was quickly refuted.  Geez!  Can't anybody get things right?

(Message last edited Jun-10th-03  8:11 PM.)

That's exactly what I was thinking--the Trickey-McHenry business.  I wonder who their background researcher was? I don't think the show was taped--because they were dealing with developments in the Peterson case that just surfaced yesterday.  But don't you think it's fascinating that in both Lizzie's and the Peterson case, there is an attempt to use purported efforts to obtain drugs as "evidence?"

What's interesting about that is we begin to re-define the use of *poison* as a woman's weapon.
If men use stuff now, noxious, in order to *have their way* with a girl, that is basically poisoning them.  And so men can poison in this modern age, as well as women.
Interesting that the lines are starting to blur between men's and women's (typical) crimes.
Starting to blur too is the profiling in the Lee case-a black serial killer, (Alleged)..  And our woman serial killer,Wournos.  And the * Black Widows* out there now marrying and murdering...serially.

If you read your history books, you'd know that use of poison by men is NOT new. The attempts against Fidel Castro in the 1960s? Other sudden unexplained deaths in History (they say Hardgin's wife did it)?

Poison is a "stealth weapon" that works when the murderer is not present. Leaves no fingerprints. Usually a hired servant was the agent against heads of state. How was the last Pope eliminated? Or Pius XI? That eliminates "bloodshed" and obvious signs of murder.

"He was old and sick, so the sudden death was not unexpected."

Of course it's *not new* for men to poison.
You know, tho, that the rep goes to the woman.
It's just sounding more prevalent.  But these men are not using these date rape drugs to kill...they are using them to aggressivley control.
Sooner or later tho, it seems the trend might be toward a crossing of the line, whereupon a poisoning is no longer immediately profiled to a woman.

The anthrax situation is in similar context.  A man poisoning a lot of people.  The sarum mass muders in the sub-ways of Japan.  That was probably men too.
I'll bet the Tylenol-tampering was a man.
Now also biological weapons.
Poison may become the MAN'S weapon soon, and just a faint historical blip remain that women ever used it to bump off one lousy husband!

Why Kat, whatever do you mean?

If a young wife has an old rich husband, and a boyfriend, people will talk. The insurance companies are quite used to human nature.

Ever read about Dr. William Palmer in 1850s England? Or the case of "HH Holmes" in 1890s Chicago? Serial killers may not be easily caught because they don't file insurance claims. Sends up a red flag.

As to DNA, they could compare whether Lizzie and Emma were Andrew and Sarah's natural children.  They could also tell by the skeleton's if either girl ever had a child.

I had kept a small question in the back of my mind always.
When reading those letters to Attorney Knowlton, of course we find just about any theory possible in there.  One being an illegitimate offspring.  I have reserved a spot in my credulity for a bastard child of someone, possibly Emma when she went *away* to *school* for that year and a half.  That's what they did and that's what they called it, right?

Also along the same lines has been my questioning of Lizzie's phrase in her will about leaving Emma out:
*She is supposed to have enough from Her Father's fortune.*

This is slightly off the theme of Lizzie in popular culture, but I'm putting it here:

I just finished viewing the video "The Others", with Nicole Kidman and Fionnula Flanagan.

Boy Ms. Flanagan looked great!  I just loved her!
I want her to play Abby, but I think you will all *boo* me on that choice?

(Message last edited Jun-13th-03  7:02 PM.)

I've seen that movie too, loved it!  I think that would be such a kick if Fionnula played Abby!  From the maid to the lady of the house!  So, were you able to figure out what was going on in the movie before the end or were you sucked into it, hook, line, and sinker? 

At one point I started to get bored and THAT was the point I figured I'd better pay strictest attention!
So I wasn't caught off-guard, but I did get fooled.
Stef just now said to me:  "Did you notice there was no music in the movie?"

From the June Newzletter:

"June 13—1981: Victoria Lincoln, author of A Private Disgrace, dies at the age of 76."

"June 14: Appraisal Fair with Skinner, Inc. What are your treasures really worth? Why not join us and the appraisers from Skinner's Auction House and find out?"


(Message last edited Jun-14th-03  1:35 AM.)

I was fooled by the movie myself, I thought that Fionnula and the other 2 servants were out to get Nicole for some reason.  It was like that Sixth Sense movie, not until the end did I realize what was going on.  Hmmm, I don't remember now about there not being music, would have to watch it again. 

i did not realize who the actress was.  well well.

i thought the film had one genuinely creepy scene.  where the two kids are in bed, and the girl says the boy (i forget his name) is in the room.

Heres something I found on eBay, an Edward Gorey postcard of Lizzie!  Heres the link:

I figured out THE OTHERS well before I saw it, but I love the creepy atmosphere.  I've got the DVD, o'course, being a classy-type horror enthusiast, though I like Ed Wood's travesties, too!

I love Ms. Flanagan, but even though she's gotten stout, I still don't think of her as a natural for Abby.  She's just SO Irish.

I have the book SLEEPING BEAUTY, which is a collection of memorial photograpy, some of which actually appears in THE OTHERS.  Macabre and fascinating, and if you can take Andrew being autopsied, you can look at anything!

I've posted elsewhere that Mr. Gorey, whom I had the pleasure of meeting some years ago in the old Brentano's in midtown, was at one time at work on a puppet theater version of the Borden saga.  Alas, it never came to fruition, as far as I've been able to detect.

Hey, Bob!
Did you see the postings after your last response on "Floorplans" topic, June 10th?
They are interested in miniatures and a replica of the Second Street house.
Your reference to puppets reminded me.
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=41&fid=27&taid=1&topid=1411

though i think it would be neat to have ms flanagan as abby in a movie if she could create a new england accent.  it would be interesting movie trivia -- like patty duke playing the teacher in the remake of "the miracle worker."  would ms flanagan be capable of making abby a real character as opposed to just a "prop" for lizzie?

I think Judi Dench would be PERFECT -- she even looks
like Abby. I've been thinking Kathy Bates is too much
of a "personality" to become Abby -- she is very much her
own woman. She always seems like a tough & powerful
presence -- even as Molly Brown in Titanic she seemed
very modern.

I do recall seeing Fionulla Flanagan in some contemporary TV show in the 80s while she still looked like Bridget from the Legend movie.  I can't recall what the movie was about, but, her Irish accent was practically nonexistant from what I remember. 

I was thinking the same thing, Haulover, I've seen Ms. Flanagan in good supporting roles, but, not lead actress roles.  Whoever plays Abby should be able to bring some meat to the character, thats why I originally went with the idea of Kathy Bates.  But, it would be so cool to see her in the part of Abby. 

That's a fantastic find, Susan!

Trust Gorey to have been a Bordenite!

Bob G, I'm wondering if you've heard of Canada's Ronnie Burkett?  He's a puppet master who writes his own shows & constructs his own puppets.  The shows are generally a mix of black humor & drama.



(Message last edited Jun-17th-03  12:19 AM.)

A wee sample of Ronnie's talents --



I had the pleasure of dining with him one night in Montreal in the early 90s.  A good friend of mine was stage managing for him @ the time.  Very interesting person!

No, I hadn't heard of his work, but how intriguing!

This may be old news, but in one of his little books Gorey does have one of his characters, an opera singer, star in LIZZIA BORDENA*, among other fictional opera he names.

*No relationship, apparently, with the Beeson opera in English!

KATHY BATES!

Someday, James Cameron will release a longer version of TITANIC on DVD, including the Molly Brown scenes (in the lifeboat) he had to trim.

Also, see Ms. Bates in DOLORES CLAIRBORNE for a real ride!

Quick, get Robert Duvall or James Cromwell (playing the James Mason role in a new TV-film of SALEM'S LOT in Australia as we speak) and Kathy Bates to play the Bordens...soon.  I want to hear Abby haranguing Andrew, as she supposedly did in real life, and also complaining to Maggie about how Morse should get married so they wouldn't have to put him up!  

Yes, Kathy Bates did that great New England accent in Dolores Claiborne.  I can just picture her dressed like Abby, I think she would be great! 

Judi Dench!

Am I the only one who thinks she'd be perfect?

i think judi dench would do a good job fleshing out abby's vexations.....................that i can see.

what about kathy bates as bridget?

Flipping cable channels, I heard a reference to Lizzie on the Disney Channel, of all places.  It was a Disney movie (and I don't have the title but it aired about 2 PM on June 28).  It was about a group of kids investigating the disappearance of their teacher, who they think was murdered, in NYC.  Anyway, a boy says to a girl:  "Ever hear of Lizzie Borden?"  The girl does not recognize the name.  The boy responds by saying that Lizzie was known as "the dainty murderess."  (Appreciative chuckles all around)

One can describe Lizzie using many different terms, but dainty is not one of them.

Cool, Jim!  What a coincedence, I was just going to post here on this thread, I just watched the movie Monkeybone, Lizzie makes an appearance in it!  Its a cute movie, if you liked Beetlejuice and Pee Wee's Big Adventure, you might like this movie.  They did a wonderful job with the actress who portrays her, Shawnee Free Jones.  Her hair is a mousy sort of reddish brown, curly, her teeth look bad, gray in color.  Her dress is fantastic, this gray 1890s number with leg-o-mutton sleeves and ribbons and lace.  Even the glimpse you get of Lizzie's petticoat looks very true to period!
                                      *WARNING*  Spoiler ahead, if you are planning on renting the movie, I'm describing Lizzie's part in the movie.  The movies about a cartoonist, Stu Miley, who through a freak accident, ends up in a coma.  While in the coma he enters this place called Down Town.  He tries to escape downtown and is put into prison, this is where Lizzie comes in!  Stu is lying on a mattress when the Rat Guard yells to him that its feeding time, Stu is suddenly showered with pop corn, red licorice, and other assorted candy while you hear the shrieks of the undead.  Down a slide to Stu's left come 4 people, Rasputin, Lizzie Borden, Typhoid Mary, and Attilla the Hun.  Lizzie comes flying into the scene and dives onto Stu and the starts grabbing handfuls of the food, shoving it into her mouth, its quite startling.  From another slide on the right comes Jack the Ripper, Edgar Allen Poe, and, of all people, Stephen King!  Stu wants to know who they all are and what they want, "Dinner" is the reply, they only want the junk food.  Stephen King comes over to talk to Stu and Jack introduces himself, and then Lizzie, "I'm Lizzie Borden." is her one and only line.  She is in one other scene with her arm around Jack the Ripper while they are playing Parcheesi.

(Message last edited Jun-28th-03  10:54 PM.)

Here is a picture of the actress, Shawnee Free Jones, apparently she was also in L.A. Confidential.




(Message last edited Jun-28th-03  11:05 PM.)

Boy, you find the strangest things when you have insomnia!

I'm not sure what cartoon show this comes from, but the website is angelfire.com

& this!

Mmmmm...Harry like Goth Lizzie. 

Mmmmmm...Bob love movie, hate heavy 1970's mascara and eye-shadow...

I found another Lizzie reference.  In the new book, THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY, by Erik Larson, the author discusses the planning and building of the World's Columbian Exposition of 1893.  In discussing other national and international events of that time period, Mr. Larson states:  "A woman named Borden murdered her parents."

This is a remarkable book about the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition and the brutal serial killer, H.H. Holmes, who possibly killed hundreds of women in a vast htel/torture chamber built near Jackson Park.  This is not a work of fiction.  It is historically accurate and powerfully written.  Yet it reads like a novel. 

If you are looking for a great summer book, I suggest this one.

"A woman named Borden murdered her parents"? Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read. That statement is the "legend", not the facts in the case. Many people will be surprised to learn that Lizzie was not hanged for the murders (as in that ballet?).
That is also why advertising is so efficient. If you can just believe w/o questioning, they've got you hooked.
Doesn't 'TIME' magazine do this to perfection? I once worked with a man who KNEW that a particular 'TIME' story was false, but went on believing and subscribing to this cultural artifact.
...
Is a book only as good as its researchers?

(Message last edited Jul-8th-03  7:56 PM.)

Thanks Jim!
There is a thread here about the Expostion and that Lizzie is actually believed to have gone to that fair!. 
It's an amazing thing to think Lizzie might have become a victim of HHH!

Rebello, 187, news item:
" 'Unbeknown' to Chicago: Miss Lizzie Borden has been doing the Worlds Fair with Miss Caroline Borden, formerly of this city, and Miss Alice Buck as traveling companions.' Fall River Daily Globe, Tuesday, October 3, 1893: 8."
&
Rebello, pg. 462, item:
"Schlereth, Thomas J., Victorian America: Transformations in Everyday Life 1876-1915, New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1991, 174:
'The murder trial of Lizzie Borden ...monopolized the gossip of fair goers [The World Columbian Exposition, 1893], as did a children's chant: Lizzie Borden took an axe ...' " .

--It makes me shiver!!




(Message last edited Jul-9th-03  4:47 AM.)

I recall from an earlier thread that Lizzie had attended the Columbian.  That is rather remarkable to me because Lizzie's trial ended at the end of June or early July of 1893, if I correctly recall.  The World's Columbian Exposition would have been nearing its mid-way point at that time (it was only open for six months as are most world's fairs). 

In any event, a trip to Chicago in 1893 was no simple task and it had to be rather expensive. Over 27 million people did visit the Fair and in a nation with a population of about 85 million at the time, that is a significant figure.   I suppose what most intrigues me is that Lizzie was able to even put together a trip considering her major focus throughout the year had to be her trial and the very real threat she could have been convicted.  After a year in jail it would seem she would have had far more important matters to demand her attention--such as rebuilding her life.  A trip to Chicago would have been a significant undertaking and would have required planning and focus.  If she did, indeed, attend the Columbian it would certainly have been something like a victory tour for Lizzie.  And if she had stayed with Dr. Holmes in his World's Fair Hotel (complete with disection rooms, soundproof vaults, torture chambers and a 3,000 degree crematorium) my money would have been on Lizzie in that pairing.  There is no doubt in my mind that Holmes would have met his match with Lizzie.  I suspect that if Holmes had so much as thought about chaining Lizzie to a wall, she would have clobbered him.

Oh that is so clever!
Now that sounds like a Great Comic book episode!
And you choosing Lizzie to beat out HHH at his own game...that is SO funny!


Maybe Lizzie, since she hadn't much to do (no testifying or anything) did fantasize about the Fair.. Lights out early in jail.  And she had the newspaper stories and she certainly had the $ to go when she got out.
Also Morse had ties to Illinois & possibly Chicago.  The Borden's had visited Chicago when Lizzie was little, for probably at least a month because she was put into Sunday School while there. 
In Morse's Inquest testimony, 106, he says years ago out West Andrew talked to him about a will.  The other reference, is in Rebello pg 8 & 10:
"Lizzie Borden: Her School, and Later Life, Noble Woman Though Retiring," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 6, ironically an *Interview* with Lizzie's friend, Mrs. Holmes!

Do you know the start & closing dates for the Fair and why it was only open 6 months after they went to all that trouble?


(Message last edited Jul-11th-03  12:24 AM.)

On page 86 of the hardcover edition of FROM A BUICK 8:  "The harsh black-and-white photo of Edith in the POST-GAZETTE didn't help her case; it made her look like Lizzie Borden about fifteen minutes before she grabbed the hatchet."

BOY!  FINALLY is Right!  Someone else here was also reading that book  (?)
I bet there's other Borden references in King's other books....

That would be me, I posted that at the beginning of this thread, but, great minds think alike!  I have a few of King's books and don't recall any other Lizzie references at the moment.  I would love to read his version of the Borden story. 

Oh gosh!  I'd Drool for that!

have you read this buick 8?  his last short story collection, i thought, was overall, pretty good.  is this buick 8 novel worth the read?  and i wonder if he's really going to quit.  i thought that was odd.  how does a writer "quit?" 

Me?  No I haven't read a Stephen King since I read his autobiography, *How to Write* or something like that.
All his books are excellent tho.  But I have to be in the mood.  However, I'm always in the mood for a biography or autobiography*. Stef reads all King but not that one you name.  She just read his book with Peter Straub, which I believe was a sequal, Black House.

I just bought the new Harry Potter book tonight at Wal-Mart.
But I'm still reading John Douglas.

-*I think true-crime, and Lizzie books as well, are a form of biography and that is partly why I love to read about this case!

Susan, I missed you posting this already - sorry!

I'm a big fan of King's, from the beginning, but I hadn't even thought about reading BUICK until I just re-read his excellent ON WRITING.  In it, he talks about the premise for the novel, and it sounded interesting enough for me to want to borrow it from the library. 

(SPOILER!)
It's a little of THE RAFT, not as much CHRISTINE as you'd think, and a heap of THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.  I've got about 50 pages to go, and it's not his best, but it's not bad.  Better than THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON, a real toilet-read if ever there was one.  The last new King novel I really liked was DREAMCATCHER.  His short story in THE NEW YORKER a few weeks ago was Steve at the top of his form.

I'm a 'SALEM'S LOT devotee, and I'm following the news as the new mini-series is beig finished (TNT, to be broadcast in 2004).  You can check on the current casting on the IMDb.

I wish King would either write his version of the Borden case, or at least do an essay on the crimes. 

 

(Message last edited Jul-17th-03  10:28 AM.)

Bob, thats fine, no harm, no foul.  I remeber when I read that it just jumped out at me and I laughed.  Its what prompted me to start this thread.

My love affair with Stephen King started with the book, Carrie, in fact, I still have it, with pics from the movie in it.  I also enjoyed Rose Madder which is not to be confused with his Rose Red.  Rose Madder is about an abused woman who is trying to escape her husband and comes across a painting....

Tell me!  My Stephen King shelf is right near my Lizzie shelf!  I bought, from our occasional book seller on 37th Avenue, the large paperback of the script of THE STORM OF THE CENTURY this morning - for a dollar, how could I resist?

You may be overlooking the most important thing for a professional novelist: will it sell and make the big bucks? Its easier (?) to write fiction, since you don't have to keep track of a ton of facts. See other books for occasional misteaks.

Thanks, that's the name of the book I read last of King, On Writing.
I don't know if people know it is the story of his accident and recuperation, as well as a wonderful insight into his state of being and his relationship to his craft.
I really read it to get the autobiographical info about King's injuries and how it happened and what he thought about it all.
Ended up with reams of notes on Writing!

  Like I said, great minds think alike!  Lizzie and King books share a shelf in my bookcase too.  I never saw Storm Of The Century or read it yet for that matter.  Will have to check it out.  I don't know if you saw one of my posts in this thread on the movie Monkeybone, but, Stephen King and Lizzie Borden are in the movie together.  King plays himself. 

(Message last edited Jul-18th-03  3:37 AM.)

Last night on "Law & Order" there was a repeat (?) where a teen-age girl was accused of murder (or so it seems). This teenager said she was seduced by her teacher, etc into committing the murder. After offering her a plea, the reason was "nobody will convict little orphan Annie"; the retort was "but not if she'e Lizzie Borden".

They got that one wrong again, even if they have interesting dramas.

Yeah, those "misteaks" are murder!

I meant that King would write a necessarily fictionalized version of the case, not a non-fiction consideration of the facts.  If Hunter's LIZZIE, Engstrom's LIZZIE BORDEN, and Angela Carter's books can sit on my shelves, a Stephen King short story, novella, or novel inspired by the case would be as welcome.

bob:

if only we could get him on the forum, i'm sure we could inspire him.  we can always hope that he himself will get the idea on his own and start searching on the internet, and then he's sure to find us.

i haven't read "On Writing," but after hearing you and kat talk about it, i think i'll put it on my list.

i did not know a remake of salem's lot was in the works. 

and btw, "The Raft" was the story where the teenagers were surrounded by the black oily spot in the lake that was trying to eat them?

anyway, buick8 i'll read in paperback.  his statement that he is going to stop writing seems very odd to me.

i have a high opinion of fiction BECAUSE the "facts" have to be created.  i have written about the Civil War, for example, and though it was challenging to put it all together in such a way that it "made sense" and could be followed -- it was nice to know that the facts were the facts -- like them or not -- history itself had done some of the work. 

Altho I will always adore The Stand, I like King best when he's stepped slightly out of the horror realm & more into the mystic realism.  The Body/Stand By Me, Rita Hayworth & the Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile, The Dead Zone, Hearts in Atlantis.

I haven't been able to enjoy one of his straight horrors for many years.  It kills me how badly edited they are.  (Actually, he prob isn't subject to much editing).

If King were to do Lizzie, I imagine he'd delve into all the secondary people as well...giving everyone a host of skeletons in their own closets.  At least, I fantasize he would

Yeah, that's THE RAFT's basic plot.  That strange attraction the "thing" gives off is recycled a bit in BUICK.  I'm going to be trying to get in touch with King, for an article I've been given the go-ahead for on the forthcoming SALEM'S LOT mini-series, as compared to the old one and the novel.  I have a very long lead time, as the drama won't be broadcast until 2004.  When I submit a few questions, I'll throw Lizzie in as well - why not? 

IMO King is very busy with his work, and, has never written a book on an actual case, etc. I'm not a fan of either, but there may be another younger writer who could do this. She has already set up some foundation.

That is Patricia Cornwell!
...
I have yet to read any of her fiction, or the J-t-R book (so many published over the last 25 years!).
Is she this generation's Victoria Lincoln?

(Message last edited Jul-30th-03  12:30 PM.)

Fine, except that her book on Jack the Ripper has been widely discredited, and she seems to be something of an idiot.

King is not currently "very busy" - he's actually taking something of a break, by his own account.  He is overseeing the production of his  American version of the European TV series, THE KINGDOM, about a warped hospital.  Steve King is a strong writer on New England themes, and I'd love to read either a non-fiction or fiction piece on the Borden case by him.

8/1: Bought a copy of SUSPECT, an old play by Percy and Denham which you've read about, if you've been paying attention to the appendices in the older Borden books.  The leading character is supposedly based on Lizzie, and I'll give you a report after I read it.

SUSPECT

A very hokey play from 1940.  Mrs. Smith is a wealthy middle-aged lady living in Cornwall.  She has a very loyal older Scottish servant who's always saying things like "I dinna ken, lassie."  Mrs. Smith, a widow, has an only son who is to marry a young woman.  Her in-laws and a family friend come to visit, and the men figure out that Mrs. Smith is none other than the Scottish Margaret Wishart, who stood trial for the axe-murders of her father and step-mother years ago.  The verdict was "not proven."  The suspicious men tell her they will force her son's engagement to be broken - but Mrs. Smith offers to prove her innocence.  She squirms a bit at first, but soon reveals that it was her lover, whom her father had refused to let her marry, who slaughtered her parents.  Everyone breathes again, and the young couple, unaware of the trouble, leave to marry, and all the visitors follow.  Mrs. Smith manifests an odd attitude towards her future daughter-in-law, however, and by the way she's hacking away at a table with her axe at the end of the play, it's fairly clear she wasn't quite telling the truth to her houseguests...

Note that GOODBYE, MISS LIZZIE BORDEN also ends with Lizzie herself maniacally chopping at an end table, but that's due to her frustration at being known by the world at a large as a murderess, when it was in fact her looney sister Emma what did the old 'uns in!        

(Message last edited Aug-4th-03  11:43 AM.)

A former computer analyst and best-selling author an IDIOT? Who says so? What publications contain this information?
I hope they are as reputable as "Reader's Digest" or "TIME"?
Isn't PC the modern day equivalent of Victoria Lincoln?

Perhaps the better choice of a famous writer is: Ann Rule.
She does specialize in True Crime books, like E Pearson.

I've been thinking for a long time, if anybody knows Ann Rule, let's get her over here!

While this is not necessarily Lizzie, it made me think of her! 

Ann Rule's a terrific writer - no argument here.  Still, wasn't the point that we were discussing having a professional writer of fiction, like King, take a whack at the story?  Rule, as you say, writes non-fiction accounts of crimes.

VANITY FAIR took Cornwell apart, bit by bit, on her lead-fingered look into the Ripper case.  Since when does being a best-selling author absent one from idiocy?  I've got two words for you - Jackie Susann!

LOVE THOSE PUMPKINS!  That's definitely Abby on the left! 

(Message last edited Aug-5th-03  11:30 AM.)

  Thats what I was thinking too, Bob!

You know, it might be fun to start a thread on "If different authors wrote a story about the Bordens".  Every author has their idiosyncrasies, so each would be different.  For example, I was thinking if Amy Tan (Joy Luck Club) was to write a story about the Bordens, it would heavily feature all of the woman involved with the crime and their relations to their mothers and choices they have made in life.  Of course, Lizzie, Emma, and Abby would be the focus. 

Just because a monthly magazine publishes a Hatchet Job on a writer that doesn't make it 1000% correct. What was the issue? I'd consider looking it up (but I never had time to read any of the J-t-R books).

You do know about professional jealousy, and the attempts to tear down one book in other to sell another? Or just because the publisher of one magazine is angry with another publisher? Rivalries famous in olden times among newspaper publishers?

YOU still haven't supplied the specifics for your quotes. Not that I'm a fan of PC, but it seems like a smear.

NOTE to Administrator. If Bob wrote a known lie, should he be suspended from this site for 90 days?

So who is "Jackie Susann"? Isn't that an irrelevant comment?

just to further irrelevance, wasn't sharon tate in movie valley of the dolls?  who of course was butchered by manson gang.  (maybe not completely irrelevant then)

Oh!  I get it!

I am a HUGE Stephen King fan and I hope you get in touch with him Bob. I would love for him to do some research here! And I would adore it if he tackled a Lizzie story. He would be the writer to do it, that's for sure.

I saw the Storm of the Century on TV and it was great! It was very slow, which I love with King. Lots of details and moments not often seen on TV. I think the quality was mostly do to King producing it himself and getting it just right.

My favorite one so far is The Stand. Plus all the novellas. His novellas make the very best hollywood films.

I read the Corwall and she really had me going. I didn't like the way the book was organized. Going back and forth in time. I was nearly done when I realized she had another victim to go. I think it was poorly written but I was intrigued completely by her theory. The NYT review was harsh on her. But I have to admit that I wish I had read it before I read her book. I still would have read her book, but I wouldn't have been so gullible. I think she may have lost her credibility with that one, actually. The family of Sickert is going after her now, I hear.

thank you for understanding my sharon tate theory, kat.  it's the only thing that makes sense.

Ray, I started to compose a specific reply to your request for sources (even though I hadn't posted any quotes), and I realized, why bother?  As Stephen Sondheim wrote in the musical INTO THE WOODS, "You'll just do what you do."

But what, pray tell, is a "known lie?"  Abby was 6'4"?  Lizzie finished her days as an opera singer?  Emma is buried in Ann Arbor?

Since you referred to me by name above, I must ask: are you jealous of my general credibility, or are you just upset that I (along with many others here) actually seek to use the resources of the site to try to expand my knowledge of the case, even if it means I have to give up long-held and cherished theories?

In other words, that am I open to change and challenge? 

Here is the original quote that I asked about:
"VANITY FAIR took Cornwell apart, bit by bit, on her lead-fingered look into the Ripper case.  Since when does being a best-selling author absent one from idiocy?  I've got two words for you - Jackie Susann!"

I searched on "vanity fair cornwell" and found nothing about an expose of Cornwell's book. I doubt if it is "fiction", but some may question the deductions derived from her facts, etc. I have no intention of reading the many books published since around 1976 on these unsolved murders, if only because it doesn't interest me (priorities).
Also, given the common ownership of magazines and publishing houses, I would expect a new book to be praised by magazines owned by the same publisher. Is there any controversy on this 110 yr old case?

So WHERE are your citations? It is as if a book on Whitewater was praised/damned by The Nation or National Review, each of whom have their own axes to grind (NOT a reference to the Borden murders). P Cornwell may (or may not) be on target; but it seems insulting to imply she is a dummy ("lead-fingered"). And is PC really as best-selling as J Susann? PC seems to put a lot of effort into getting the details right, like some of Ian Flemings "best-sellers".

I don't intend to read her book. The story on ABC seemed to make Sickert really sick; but that was one sided. Does anyone here follow the Jack-the-Ripper books?

Does the owner of ABC network also own the publishing house of P Cornwell? Consider that w/ any puff-piece.

What do you mean by "quote?"  Here's a bit from your post:

>Here is the original quote that I asked about:
>"VANITY FAIR took Cornwell apart, bit by bit, on her lead-fingered >look into the Ripper case.  Since when does being a best-selling >author absent one from idiocy?  I've got two words for you - Jackie >Susann!"

I wrote that.  It's not a quote.  It doesn't need substantiation, I believe.

And, as you often put it to us, you're free to find the VANITY FAIR article on your own.  Really, though, I don't think any continued brouhaha about Cornwell is, in the long run, especially useful in a chat about Lizzie in popular culture.  If we disagree about the merits of her writing or her work on the Ripper case, we disagree.  Fair enough.

Ray, you'll be able to relax a little next week - I won't be around!  I'm hoping to have a lovely time in Provincetown (rain or shine), and I sincerely hope you have a lovely week, too, wherever you are.

So what was the date of that issue? I would like to verify your claim and its reliability. Given the lack of controversy, I doubt that they would have an attack campaign on a new book. It does take time to read and research any book.

Anybody else willing to volunteer? The question is: did "Vanity Fair" (which sounds like a fashion magazine) do a hatchet job on P Cornwell?
Someone's credibility is at stake.

I will scale down what I was going to write to the following:

Are you for real?

Still no answer as to date of publication!!
Needed to get any back issue.

Ray, an excerpt of her book was published in Vanity Fair in November of 2002, I think the review was in the December issue of the same year.  I think I found a copy of the review, but, it is on another message forum.  Hope that helps? 

I watched part 1 of Storm of the Century tonight.
<<<shudder>>>>

The atmosphere in that dead lady's house was so scary!

The Constable goes back there at night to take crime scene photos AFTER the power is out.
That reminded me of the pools of blood in a dark house at night and dead bodies in the dining room.
A black house inside, no light, just a flashlight...in Lizzie and Emmer and Alice's case, at night with those bodies, a hand-held lamp and maybe a candle or 2.  The shadows are everywhere...the blood might be an obvious smell, it's on the bodies, it's on the sheets, it's in the carpet...MURDER VICTIMS!
In this movie, the lady's face was Gone, her eyeball hanging out...sound familiar?
How creepy is That!?

"Vanity Fair" magazine for Dec 2002 pp 342-355 has the article.
It is a summary of her book. Talks about deductions from Sickert's paintings, like on the TV show. (Were these made on order?)
"DNA testing will continue" says there was NO RESULTS!
Some others had the same suspect years ago. This assumes it would be someone famous.
The Feb  2003 issue had two letters protesting: the book was not a good introduction to Walter Sickert's work.

P Cornwell's book is published by G Putnam press. Any relation to the Vanity Fair corporation?

That was all the time I had to research back issues.

I also watched the "Bore of the Century". I can't believe it would be so amateurish. Maybe they should've spent more? My opinion, of course.
One unbelievable item was the house of that old lady. Immaculately kept and richly furnished for a poor rural island. (Unless there is some surprise here?)

Ray, you're not even trying to catch me in some important misstep concerning the Borden case, but a peripheral one dealing with a writer we were discussing as a possible author of a Borden book.

Let it go.

 

I just want to know the truth! What issue of "Vanity Fair" had your claimed attack? Or did you mean some other publication that you will not name?
Credibility is at stake.

Take a Valium (or whatever it is you're on) and stop gnashing your teeth - you might bite your lip, and wouldn't that be a mess?

If i don't produce the hatchet...sorry, article, or it's found and it's not such an indictment of Cornwell's errors as I'd said, would that invalidate everything else I've ever written here?

It would seem to, in your jaundiced eyes.  

(Message last edited Aug-19th-03  5:05 PM.)

That sounds like your claim can't be substantiated. I have no interest in that book, except as a truth checker against the allegations on Vanity Fair.

Note that publications that push a book rarely turn about and then bad mouth it. Something like corporate sponsorship and advertising, plus good faith with subscribers.

When will we get the truth?

"That sounds like your claim can't be substantiated..."

No, that sounds like you are some kind of obsessive on this (I say once more) peripheral question.  As I have also just responded to you on another thread, I won't let you defame me or try to use this to call everything else I've posted here into question.  If I happened to read the negative article in THE NEW YORKER or THE NY TIMES MAGAZINE, I will certainly apologize for that human error, as humans should.

Now, as Cher said to Nick Cage in MOONSTRUCK, "Snap out of it!"  

OK, but just what was the publication and its date? The more you avoid this, the more suspicious you seem.

"Just where were you Lizzie when your Father was murdered?"
1) Out in the back yard.
2) Back in the barn.
3) Up in the barn out of sight of anything.
...
But if you cannot answer, for whatever reason, consider this closed.

(Message last edited Aug-20th-03  5:03 PM.)

The article in VANITY FAIR was in the December 2002 issue, and you are the only poster calling me "suspicious."

(Message last edited Aug-21st-03  1:04 PM.)

Your quote follows:
"Note that GOODBYE, MISS LIZZIE BORDEN also ends with Lizzie herself maniacally chopping at an end table, but that's due to her frustration at being known by the world at a large as a murderess, when it was in fact her looney sister Emma what did the old 'uns in! "

I will try to research this to see if your quote is accurate. Does anybody here know if this is true?
I seriously doubt this unsubstantiated claim that "Emma did it" since this claim came from the 1984 Spiering book, not the 1973 Sullivan book ("Lizzie did it"). 

(Kat is free to comment on this.)     

Bob G. needs no defence of his accuracy from me and he is right again in this case.

He is not referring to the book "Goodbye, Lizzie Borden" by Sullivan but to the play "Goodbye, Miss Lizzie Borden" by Lillian De La Torre, where our quiet Emma does the dirty deeds.

Just pulled the script from my files and yes indeed our Lizzie does end the play by taking hatchet to hand and "crashes it savagely into the table."


BTW, the play was copyrighted in 1947 some 37 years before Spiering's book.  One more Spiering heist?

(Message last edited Aug-21st-03  2:23 PM.)

Thank you very much, Harry.

FOLKS!  Here's a review, from one of my colleagues at the TALKIN' BROADWAY site, of a theatrical adaptation of Angela carter's short story!

http://www.talkinbroadway.com/regional/sanfran/s368.html

(Message last edited Aug-21st-03  4:18 PM.)

Thanks Bob!
Sounds good.  Hope they film it.

We ought to get together some questions about the making of the Legend movie and write this guy!
What would we ask?

"Did they hire Helen Craig (Abby) because she was married to John Beal (Bowen), or vice versa?"

I'm kidding, though sometimes I wonder.  James Mason's dandy performance in "Salem's Lot" is balanced by his wife's inept one as New England housewife Marjorie Glick.  On the other hand, once she becomes a vampire, she ROCKS! 

Contributed by Augusta




(Message last edited Aug-23rd-03  9:50 PM.)

Ooo, very cool!  I wonder what year this published in? 

It turns out this poem is included before the Table of Contents in L. Rebello's research tome, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Al-Zach Press, 1999.
It is attribted there to Beard, and I had made a note to see page 451.
The poem appears there as well, with some info on Beard, 451-452:

"NOTE:  Alexander B. Beard published poems on tragic events.  His poems exist as tear sheets, some are dated while others are not.  The Manchester Historical Association has the following tear sheets:  The Great Boiler Explosion (1888), Burning of the Dunbar Residence (1889), Horrible Murder at Henniker, NH (1891), Amoskeag Disaster (Flywheel Explosion, 1891)(sic-no puncuation)  Murder at Fall River (Undated) and Tale of My Own Experience. (Undated)

Very little is known about Mr. Beard. He is listed from 1875-1889 in the Manchester, New Hampshire City Directories. He worked at the Manchester Print Works, a textile printing mill. From 1891-1902 he was listed as a peddler, 1902-1924 as a wool-sorter and silver polisher. The 1925 directory listed his wife as 'died in 1924.' The address throughout the directory listings is 201 Winter Street, West Manchester, New Hampshire, the same as it appeared in The Murder at Fall River.

The poem was reprinted in Jonathan Goodman's Bloody Versicles, The Rhymes of Crime, England: David & Charles, 1971 and Kent, OH: Kent State University Press, 1993, xi-xviii, xix-xxiii, 3-6."

Thanks, Kat.  I was curious how long after the murders that this poem was published, I guess we will never know.  But, its probably safe to say that Lizzie may have read it in her lifetime. 

When I posted the picture I thought Gee that poem seems familiar.
It was later that I picked up Rebello and remembered.

I see what you're getting at about the dating of the piece.  I didn't think about Lizzie having read it.
Gosh she must either have given up reading the papers etc, or had to grow used to this kind of reminder!  I can't imagine that.  I would have moved to Paris.

It must have been awful for her, guilty or not!  Just when she probably thought it all had died down, something new would pop up.  I wonder if she read any of these, possibly by accident, or it was made known to her?  And I can imagine around August 4th, she must have gone into hiding, I know I would, get out of town and go somewhere else! 

I've seen that poem reprinted in the book BLOODY VERSICLES, I believe (I'll do some checking).  The chapter also contained A.L. Bixby's infamous "To Lizzie" ("There's no evidence of guilt, Lizzie Borden...").

Don't you love how the drawing of the author is given such prominence? 

(Message last edited Aug-25th-03  3:19 PM.)

Thanks, Bob!  Yes, LOVE the drawing!  It reminds me of some of those illustrations of Lizzie. 

So some of you are reading or watching plays and dramas to find The Truth about this case? Is that a big error in judgment?

When will they ever learn?

No, it is not a Spiering heist. His book notes that Mrs Howe was quoted as saying that "Emma did it". You must interpret this symbolically: a child of Andy IMO. Spiering's book is valuable in reporting 'local color' that is skipped in other books.

Oh yes, oh wise one, you who have all knowledge.

Forgive us poor ignorant fools.  We try our best.

Symbolic, now why couldn't I think of that. I got to stop reading all these facts. They're just getting in the way of the real answers. 

(Message last edited Aug-26th-03  12:31 PM.)

Does someone else, for a change, want to politely answer Ray and tell him that experiencing how a dramatist or novelist (or composer or choreographer, for that matter) has reacted to and interpreted the events of the case is a different yet valid aim from "the search for the truth," and can actually be quite eye-opening and even enjoyable?

Oh, I guess I just did!

(And I see that Harry beat me in responding!)

(Message last edited Aug-26th-03  12:33 PM.)

"Facts" in a drama? Those who criticize certain dramas (the 1975 TV movie?) should know that the FIRST rule is to entertain and make money. Books also have that, but are longer lasting and usually dwell more on the facts, not the action.
I hope most of you will agree.

Thanks for the flattering remarks!

Yes, Ray there are sometimes facts in a drama. Amazing, huh?

Back to the original theme of this thread.  Just now I was watching (very briefly) "Murder She Wrote" and happened to hear a Lizzie reference.

There was a murder aboard this cruise ship and Mrs. Fletcher(?) says to the captain she suspected a certain young lady.

He says he knows her and she is very nice and wouldn't do a thing like that. Mrs. Fletcher then says "That was what Mr. and Mrs. Borden said about their daughter, Lizzie."

Why is it that everywhere this Mrs. Fletcher goes there's a murder to solve?  Kinda suspicious.    Also the police are always worse bunglers than the FR police were on August 4, 1892.

(Message last edited Aug-27th-03  4:54 PM.)

Just to fix some *facts*...

Harry never referred to *facts in a drama* - he said he had to stop reading *these facts*.  He meant facts in the source documents, as he rarely reads fiction.

The other correction is that it wasn't Mrs. Howe who stated the opinion that *Emma did it*, it was her husband, Mr. Howe.

I don't disagree with the statement about "facts in a drama". But the aim of drama is to entertain, known facts are subservient to that.
In Oliver Stone's 'Nixon' he has John Dean meeting someone in secret for the dirty tricks. Dean said that as a lawyer he would never do this, just hire an underling for it. Stone said, "yes, but bringing in another character would just confuse the audience". Not to mention another actor to pay!

Entertainment exists to make money; that's "show business". Facts serve the drama, unlike a book written to prove something. Nobody (?) reads Radin, Sullivan, or Brown for entertainment (per se?). But you may disagree with this. (I have learned to prefer history to fiction, not that history is 1000% reliable.)

Yes, Jessica Fletcher may just be the world's greatest serial killer; wherever she goes bodies pop up (or is that a contradiction in terms?). A comment made years ago. But its drama, not history.

Raymond Chandler's famous essay on murder commented on those society people who dabble in solving murders; "the boys at Police HQ would love to get their hands on them" or words to that effect. Do read it!

Are you saying that Mr Howe didn't speak for Mrs Howe? Surely a relative (?) would know something that ordinary people wouldn't?

That means an unsuspected child of Andy did it. Sound familiar?

Oh Oscar Mayer!
Grace Howe was a nice beneficiary of Lizzie's will
so I doubt she ever cast aspersions on Emma's character.
Mr. & Mrs. Howe were not always together being as his job took him away from home quite a bit.  His opinion at the time was newsworthy as HE was famous, relatively.
No I doubt it was his wife's opinion.
I wish you would read some new stuff and not fall into these traps of speculation.

I finally got around to listening to the CD I'd bought from Eric Stedman (I'm sure some of you already own it) comprising four radio plays based on the Borden case, and it's a hoot!  The two lesser episodes are from an "Unsolved Mysteries" program, complete with omniscient, florid narration (and a really knuckle-headed solution), and then something called "The Bloody, Bloody Banks of Fall River" which is so ridiculous and overheated that it's hysterical ("Lizzie...why did you smear that (chicken) blood on my face?"  "Because I wanted to see how you'd look, Mrs. Borden.").

On the other hand, you've got a wonderful radio version of Lillian De La Torre's "Goodbye, Miss Lizzie Borden," which was also done for "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" on TV.  The best segment, I thought, was "The Fall River Tragedy" starring, as "Elizabeth" Borden, the great American character actress Agnes Moorehead.  This is an especially adept compression of actual testimony and quotes.  Amusingly, both this piece and "Goodbye" feature an annoying child singing the famous quatrain.

Highly recommended.       

I have it right here.
Stef and I listened to about 2/3 of the first drama, and were really tickled at that.
I next tried listening to the whole thing myself, and fell asleep Twice!
I'll try again.

What a trip, Agnes Moorehead (Endora) played Lizzie at one point in her career and her fictional daughter, Liz Montgomery (Samantha) played her too. 

Susan, I know!  It's as weird as that horror film song CD coming out that has Alison Fraser (Lizzie in LIZZIE BORDEN, the musical), Rebecca Luker (who taped demo songs from the same show, singing Emma's deleted solo, "Cherish the Child"), and Katherine Helmond, Emma in THE LEGEND OF...

What a strange set of coinky-dinks!  And it all stems from Lizzie in some way, shape, or form.  Have you seen Lizzie Borden the musical?  I'd love to see it performed at least once in this lifetime, sounds interesting! 

I remember that this is quoted in Frank Spiering's book, and the reason for his solution.
He didn't make it up, no matter how improbable or impossible it seems.

Spiering may have thought Emma did it but Grace Howe shows up in there in the latter pages, included because of her inheritence, as I mentioned, not as a proponent of Emma as murderer.
Rebello (138) has an account of the "Emma Did It" theory, and it seems it showed up in Pearson's work. 

"Oursler, Jr., Fulton, Behold This Dreamer! An Autobiography, Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1964, 366-367.

Fulton Oursler, in his autobiography, recalled a conversation he had with Louis Howe, Franklin D. Roosevelt's closest political advisor and friend. Mr. Howe was married to Grace Borden Hartley of Fall River. She was a cousin of Lizzie's and a major benefactor of Lizzie's estate. Mr. Howe told Fulton that 'Lizzy' didn't kill her parents. It was Emma who 'stole back from Marion' [Massachusetts] and killed Abby and Andrew. Emma was 'crazy' and suffered from 'epileptic fits' according to Mr. Howe. 'Lizzy discovered Emma and sent her back to Marion.'

Fulton later made arrangements to have his friend Edmund Pearson and Louis Howe meet to discuss the Borden murders. Mr. Pearson did not agree with Howe's theory according to Fulton Oursler. Mr. Howe's theory appeared in Edmund Pearson's 'Legends of Lizzie' in the New Yorker, April 22, 1933."

--Col. Howe died in 1936, and Mrs. Howe lived to 1955.  (Rebello, 333)


(Message last edited Sep-6th-03  8:18 PM.)

Thanks, Kat.  I don't think I've ever read that before.  Was Howe ever interviewed by the police during the Borden murders? 

In the LBQ, Jan., 1997, issue there is an article "COUSIN GRACE HARTLEY HOWE", by Judith Paula Curry, front page.

Apparently the Howes did not live together (as I stated to Ray), Col. Howe following Roosevelt to Washington.  The couple met in Saratoga Springs, and married in 1898 and had a modest house there, a gift from her mother.
So Col. Howe was not even an acquaintance of Grace until 1896, per this article.
"During the holidays, Grace Howe and her children dined at the White House, as they had done in earlier days when the two families had spent their holidays together at Hyde Park....both the Roosevelt and Howe children never spent much time with their fathers while growing up...
Although Louis Howe enjoyed summers with his family at his cottage at Horseneck Beach in Westport, Massachusetts, they shared very little time together.  Grace brought her children up more or less alone.

...Louis had a wonderful sense of humor.  While living in the White House, he was said to have quipped many times about being a cousin to Lizzie Borden."

--By the time of Howe's death, 1936, his wife and her family were living in Fall River.  She was appointed Post Mistress of the Fall River Post Office, which post she held until 1951 when she retired.

(Message last edited Sep-7th-03  6:51 PM.)

Thanks, Kat.  So, they weren't even married during that time period.  I guess anything Howe came to know about Emma either came from Grace or what he witnessed later in life from possibly visiting with his wife's relatives. 

Yes, I've seen it twice, once in early reading form, and then once as performed in NJ, fully costumed and staged.  The CD of the score is readily available in stores and on Amazon.  You'll remember a full-page ad in an old LBQ, along with a review of the disc by M. Bertolet.

IF you read the footnotes to Spiering's book, you will find the reference. This is literally incredible! The police checked out her alibi, of course.
You should interpret that statement symbolically: an unsuspected child of Andy's did it.

Such separate lives are common among the truly rich, and other aristocrats. You can look up the lifestyle of the hereditary monarchs. The recent example of the Brit monarchy are just a return to type, long censored in past times.

Very cool, Bob!  Uh, I don't get the LBQ as of yet.    I did get a gift certificate to Amazon, hmmmm, I guess I should go check it out. 

Found a couple more additions for this thread.  Lizzie on a soap opera?  Days Of Our Lives did a special, didn't see it and don't know how current it is?

"Late at night, Alice Horton has heard the eerie sound of children chanting the creepiest of schoolyard rhymes. She's certain it means an ill wind is blowing through Salem and is afraid for her family and friends. But who was this mysterious Lizzie Borden? And what does she have to do with what's going on in our fair city? "

Here is the link:  http://tv.yahoo.soapcity.com/specials/days_lizzie_borden/index.jhtml


Also found this, I just recently started getting into Dorothy Parker and had no idea she ever made this statement:

"The American wit Dorothy Parker once wrote, "I will believe till eternity, or possibly beyond it, that Lizzie Borden did it with her little hatchet, and whoever says she didn't commits the sin of sins, the violation of an idol (Reach, 59)."

From this site:  http://www.paraarchives.com/wots/1998/1998-08-24-04.htm

(Message last edited Oct-2nd-03  2:08 AM.)

That's neat you found those references!
You should send them to "Dear Abby".

I had trouble getting to the link.  Sometimes that just happens!
But Harry told me a shortcut:  To copy the link and paste it at the address part at the top of the page.  Sure enough it worked!
Thanks Har!

I sure wonder how that soap storyline involved Lizzie.  If anyone caught that series let us know?

The other link I also pasted, went there, found it's an updated version of Ed Sams' article.  Interesting.

But what, if anything, did Dorothy Parker know about this? Literary types are also interested in entertainment, and show business.
How many historical books did she write?

She seems more a commentator on popular culture.  She sounds like she had an interested person's amount of background knowledge.
Don't you yourself claim less than a hobbyist's interest in the Borden case?

Wrong door again, Ray!

Dorothy Parker's quote is from her 1960's ESQUIRE book review of Ed Radin's book blaming Bridget, which I've been looking for in its entirety.

What an amazing coincidence.  That Dorothy Parker quote is something i've been looking for the past two days.  What is so odd though is that i thought it was a tallulah bankhead quote.  then i remembered why.  from something i read, i thought bankhead and dorothy parker palled around together at one time.  i think it's from that last incomplete book by truman capote--he has them at a party having a wicked conversation about montgomery cliff.

and then t bankhead ties in with something else i was looking for but without any luck:  the theater.  lizzie and the theater -- any mention of her among theater people in new york.  well i know lizzie was good and dead at the time of dorothy parker's quote.  but i wondered how well known lizzie was in ny theater in general -- if stories about her had been passed down in that particular society. 

that's why it made sense that t bankhead (theater) might have said it.  but dorothy parker was part of it as well, wasn't she?

i laughed to think of someone colorful and outrageous as t. bankhead at one of lisbeth's maplecroft parties:  "dahling, you're the nicest murderess i've ever met."

 

please let me know if you find it.  i'd love to read it.

It is funny that many of us Bordenites also are Dorothy Parker fans!
I just looked through "The Portable Dorothy Parker" by W. Somerset
Maugham, that is an extensive collection of all her works. There is
a section "From Esquire, 1957-1962" but there is no book review of
Radin. I'll keep searching though, I have a good collection of her
writings.  Her friend and fellow-member of the "round table",
Alexander Woolcott was also a big Lizzie Buff, so I imagine those
writers did sit around and discuss the case, sure would love to know
what they said.  Please let me know if anyone finds the Esquire review,Thanks!

while i'm at it, i ran across some funny stuff from t. bankhead.  this realy applies to the drug use thread, though.


anecdote:
Tallulah Bankhead told a friend that her doctor had advised her to eat an apple every time she had the urge to drink. She arched an eyebrow and added, "But really, dahlings, sixty apples a day!"


for tina's notion of lizzie using cocaine:

"Cocaine, habit forming?  Of course not, I ought to know, I've been using it for years.

"My father warned me about men and booze but he never said anything about women and cocaine."

Well, Lizzie was said to have entertained theatre people at Maplecroft, but, not who they were.  And then there is the Nance O'Neil connection.  And on April 27, 1933, a short time after Lizzie's death, at the Longacre theatre on Broadway the play Nine Pine Street which is based on the Borden murders opened.  I believe it was Lillian Gish who portrayed the Lizzie character in that production.  So, I would have to say yes, Lizzie was at least known about if not known by N.Y. theatre people.

Agnes de Mille, Dance of Death, pg. 3+:
"IT was Edward Sheldon who first brought the dark matter to my attention, Sheldon, lying blind and paralyzed in his New York penthouse.
..... To all he was first audience and discerning enthusiast: Otis Skinner, Charles MacArthur, Ruth Draper, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, Helen Hayes, Ruth Gordon, Katherine Cornell, Thornton Wilder, Alexander Woollcott, Franklin P. Adams, Constance Collier, Edmund Pearson; I came because of his friendship with my mother. I came as a young friend - I went away freighted with ideas and a big project.
...One night he said, 'Your next ballet must be about Lizzie Borden,' and he outlined her story briefly with equal appreciation for the gore and the social import.
'You don't need to keep it in New England. You can change the locale. It's the family relationships that must stand,' and he chuckled deeply and the forefinger of his right hand, which was all he could move, twitched under the silk coverlet. 'Dreadful, dreadful family.' "

how interesting!  that lillian gish played lizzie.  i did not know that.  she was in "birth of a nation," the first real film in some ways (i mean, it was one of the first artistic accomplishments in a new medium)--subject the civil war -- and then she played lizzie.....i'm glad i know that, i had wondered if lizzie's mythical (i don't know if that's exactly the right word) status was something that started right then and grew or if it was something that emerged later.  i guess it was merciful that lizzie did not have to see that play while she still lived.

that's the type thing i was wondering.....if lillian gish, for example, had actually met lizzie or at least seen her and knew who she was.

Well, I did a search, Lillian Gish was born in 1893, the year of Lizzie's trial.  She apparently met Dorothy Parker and her cronies of the Algonquin Round Table.  Couldn't find out any more about Lillian and Nine Pine Street except the play only ran for 28 performances.  I do recall reading a book with a picture of Lillian in that play eons ago. 

I have a biography of Lillian Gish, that's packed in a box for my upcoming move, so I can't be exact, but there was a brief mention of Nine Pine Street and its very short run, at the Longacre Theatre (I think).  I don't remember anything being written about Lillian Gish actually having the opportunity to meet Lizzie Borden any time during the teens & twenties.

Thanks, Benjamin, any little bit helps.  Good luck with your move, know how stressful that can be! 

Thanks Susan!  Moving stressful?  
Nothing a large dose of Victorian cough medicine couldn't cure.

There's a two page article in the October 2002 LBQ on Lillian Gish and Nine Pine Street by Borden expert Neilson Caplain.

Her birth date is October 4th which by coincidence is tomorrow.

Caplain cites the following on the play: One critic wrote "when she comes down the stairs, after the first utterly noiseless murder, the sad-iron wrapped in her guilty apron, she is an appaling sight, wracked, and almost nauseated at her own deed ... at the second slaying it is with an overwhelming sense of inescapable fate. It is an extraordinary performance, taut, almost trance-like in its power, and oppresive, with a sort of sultry brilliance."

Instead of Fall River the crimes take place in New Bedford!

sure does sound like a performance worth seeing!

She must have been quite a woman. She died in Feb. 1993 less than 8 months short of her 100th birthday.

I remember seeing her in The Night of the Hunter with Robt. Mitchum, a very scary movie in parts. 

No mention of Dorothy Parker or Nance O'Neil in the article. 

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-03  1:54 PM.)

In the Sheldon part of Agnes de Mille's book (the first pages) she gives the names of many who were in his orbit.
It was asked here about Theatre People in New York  and what they knew of Lizzie.
Here we see Alexander Woollcott, amongst other notables as well as Edmund Pearson.  Pearson may be the link to Lizzie and the New York crowd, and Woollcott to Dorothy Parker. 
We can see by these luminous names that they probably did disacuss the case and then Sheldon asks de Mille to mount a Ballet on the Borden Murders!

Woollcott is mentioned in Rebello, pg. 401:
"Woollcott, Alexander, 'The Theory of Lizzie Borden,' Going to Pieces, New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1928, 218-227.
__,'The Theory and Lizzie Borden,' Vanity Fair, September 29, 1927."

Deadful, dreadful PLAY!  I've owned a copy for years.  The protagonist has been renamed "Effie Holden" (the play is based on an earlier version called LIZZIE BORDEN, according to what's printed in the copy I have).  The stepmother, Carrie, helps Mrs. Holden to her death by dropping the only bottle of heart medicine in the house - she's got designs on Mr. Holden, rich old bastard that he is.

Effie dispatches Carrie with her flat-iron, off-stage, and quietly approaches her father on the sofa with a loaded walking stick as the curtain falls at the end of the act.

According to the last big Gish bio, the legendary actress "carried" the property around with her for years, wanting to do it as a film.   

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-03  4:32 PM.)

Harry, I'll have to check for the site I found that on about Dorothy Parker and post the link, should have the first time around.   

Thanks, Bob.  I had remembered in that book I saw that the names were thinly veiled pseudonyms for the Bordens.  The site I saw the info on Nine Pine Street listed that it was a idea from an original play, but, they didn't give the name.  Have to wonder what the original play was like and if it was any good and if it was performed during Lizzie's lifetime? 

Susan, no problem. Just because it isn't in Caplain's column that doesn't mean she didn't know Parker.  The column was mainly about Gish's career.

I did a seach on Google and found this URL:

http://www.litkicks.com/BeatPages/page.jsp?what=DorothyParker

Part of it reads:  "She continued to be a part of the New York social scene and found herself finding acquaintances and business connections with the likes of Lillian Gish and Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald."

It also says Parker had a brother who went down with the Titanic. 

(Message last edited Oct-3rd-03  9:43 PM.)

Well, Parker had a husband who went d-

No, I won't type it!

If anyone can find the entire Parker/Radin review, I'd love to read it.

Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" has a note on historical accuracy. The many judges were condensed down to just two, characters were also simplified. Remember, itS "show BUSINESS" and you don't want to write in many characters for a Big Budget.

Compare movies since the 1940s to those of the 1930s.

What is the significance of the title, do you know?
"Nine Pine Street".
There is a Pine Street in Fall River.
Do we know anyone who lived there?



(Message last edited Oct-6th-03  5:33 PM.)

That's where the Holmes' lived.  Where Lizzie went after her acquittal.

Ooo, do we know the number of the Holmes' house?  Or do you think it may have been #92 shortened to just #9? 

If memory serves, Susan, the address of the Holmes house was 67 Pine  Street.

Thanks, William.  So, no real connection with the number there.  Hmmm, I'm beginning to wonder if the original Lizzie play that Nine Pine Street was based on was never allowed to be produced; perhaps Lizzie's or Emma's lawyers put a stop to it? 

Susan:
The play, "Nine Pine Street" starring Lillian Gish, premiered at the Longacre Theater in New York on April 27, 1933. It folded after only 28 performances.

Pearson, in his "More Studies in Murder," devotes a couple of pages to to a review of the play.

Well, since Pearson also coached Gish on playing the Lizzie character, he would tend to mention it, wouldn't he?

I believe she sought him out, as the living expert on the case.

Hi, Bill!

Wow!  Thats a cool little tidbit, didn't hear about that before.  Pearson coaching Gish, interesting. 

yes, that is interesting.  it makes lizzie's love of the theater very ironic.

Found a new little thing to add here, singer/songwriter Michael Troy was born and raised in Fall River, Massachusetts.  Hes a folk singer and has even written a song about Lizzie called simply enough, "Lizzie".  The cd its on has a picture of the Borden house on its cover.  Heres the link:
http://www.folkmichaeltroy.com/cdpage.htm

Thanks Susan.
One thing.
Where does it say that about the song "Lizzie"?
I looked all around...

Sorry.  Heres a link to one of the pages its on:
http://www.folkmichaeltroy.com/articles.htm

And here:
http://www.folkmichaeltroy.com/article3.htm

And here:
http://www.folkmichaeltroy.com/article5.htm 

Thanks!
I had checked C-D page, Reviews page and Lyrics page.
He used to play in Cambridge!
Since he's near my age I thought I might have seen him but the article said he played there more recently.
I'd like to know the lyrics to his Lizzie song.  They called the crime "an urban legend".  

Yes, I would too, 3-4 minutes long?  That must be some song!  It says he did research to make the song, wonder how close it is to the facts? 

Wow!  Neat find.  Sounds like someone we should contact.

Dear Bob:

Sparing no expense, and by employing supreme effort, I am presently holding in my fat little fist a Xerox of the following:
           

              August, 1961
              Esquire Magazine
              Book Reviews
              Dorothy Parker
              Lizzie Borden, The Untold Story by Edward D. Radin

Interested?

can you scan it?  i know everyone wants to read it!!!!!1

I would be happy to pay for a copy of it!

Ooo, what a find, William!!!  If you would be willing to share, I would like to peruse it myself. 

Well, well, William.
While everyone else was farting around, you got the goods!
Congratulations!
You might wish to share your expertise on how to acquire a cited source for those who may not know.
(I just ask Stef)
Susan wants to know if you brought cookies enough to share with the whole class.

Susan, under copyright, that article cannot be reproduced here in a public Forum.
Maybe Bob G. can paraphrase once he gets it in his hot hands.

Oh, I realize that.  I meant if he wanted to share with other members for a fee or free by email.  Sorry, I hope I didn't come across as gimmee-gimmee-gimmee, I don't want William to think I'm like Lizzie or something. 

We know you are into Dorothy Parker and you don't seem 'gimme' to me.
You seem enthusiastic! 

Wow! You'd think I possessed an autographed copy of "Gone With the Wind!"

The valued manuscript is in transit to Bob as we speak.  He has carte blanche.

Kat: You asked about my expertise in obtaining hard to get items.
Here's my secret: I have a director in my local library who is madly in love with me. Of course I must also give her a box of expensive chocolates and two dozen roses from time to time -- but it's worth it.

Wow!  I can't wait to get it - I've been wanting to read this ever since I was just a little Bordenophile!

BTW, in the spirit of Halloween, please check out "Lizzie" at: http://www.ghost-ride.com/products/heads/

(Message last edited Oct-23rd-03  11:44 AM.)

But is Edward Radin's book available in print anywhere?
Copyright laws may indeed forbid "publishing" a .PDF format at this site. But that is another fault in the latest version of the law.
"Dog in the manger" is the name for those who won't allow others access to what they don't use themselves. Comments?

I have Radin's book in a slim Dell paperback version, copyright 1961, it is entitled "Lizzie Borden the untold story".. is this the one Dorothy Parker reviewed? 
I hope William or Bob G can post it in some form. Otherwise thanks
for the tip William, my sister is a librarian and expensive chocolates
might work! 

Believe it or not chocolates DO work!  I have heard that many times!
I had no idea it was a universal panacea! 

Ray you are a bit cynical.  We do our best here to share, always.  Copyright interferes sometimes.

indeed it is.  i have an old paperback.  looks like it must have been one of the first paperback editions.

let me look and i can tell you exactly.  published by DELL.  cover is picture of axe on newspapers.  i believe i've got the first paperback edition -- june 1962.  it appears to have cost 50 cents, btw.  it says "the sensational nation wide bestseller at $4.50 now 50 cents."

i think we've probably got the same thing.  further down, does it say "first dell printing -- june 1962"?

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/CoverArt.htm
LizzieAndrewBorden, Galleries,  Cover Art.

Yes! it's the same one, i wish mine were in better condition though!

ditto.  mine recently became "halved."

I notice on Ebay there is a copy for sale $1.50; and a signed
copy for 20 something. 

I've gotten it, it's great, and I'm also swamped at work, so I can't do anything about it now.  I can quote from it here, can't I?

You could review the review?
You are really good at that! 

Yes, maybe you could photograph the pages, convert into .PDF format, and then E-mail them privately. If no money changes hands, this may not break the law explicitly. But publishing them on a web-site for everyone may lead to legal issues.
Talk to a lawer before acting. Or maybe write to the owner of the copyright, they may have no objections?

Yikes don't talk to a lawyer,Ha, just write about the review!  Can't
wait to hear what Dorothy said!

My dears, I am SURROUNDED by lawyers!

Let me get through a busy week, and Halloween, and a horror convention this Saturday, and I'll report on the review. 

Bob, whenever you have a free moment, pls see thread "NY Question for Bob G" under Life in Victorian America.

Thanks!

While this one is not strictly Lizzie related, it does involve the Boston Globe and the article is titled Hatchet Job.  Heres the link:  http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/10/26/hatchet_job/

Was just flipping around the TV channels, as we men are accused of doing, and landed on the Travel Channel.  And lo but to my wondering eyes should appear but a show on ghosts.  It was titled "Haunted New England" and contained a wonderful segment on the B&B.

It contained some of the best interior shots I've seen on TV especially of the cellar.

Martha McGinn told of her ghostly sightings and Dennis Binette at the FRHS showed the blood spotted bedspread from the guest room. 

Ed Thibault was shown as playing Andrew lying on the couch and a woman with the last name of Thibault (sorry, can't remember her first name) perhaps Ed Thibault's wife, told of her encounter with what she said felt like a ghostly hand on her shoulder in the sitting room.

What really ticked me off is that it was shown several times earlier this week and I missed every one of them.  Even the showing I caught was not complete. Drats.

i saw it too.  i was about to turn it off and go do some errands -- when they announced lizzie.  so i waited and watched it.  the usual errors abounded, of course.  but the bedspread was one thing i had never seen.

when she was talking about hearing a noise from the kitchen and saw a window opening and closing -- it was unclear to me what window she was referring to?  do you have an idea?  do you put much stock in her story? 

i did notice this:  at one point when the camera is in the sitting room -- it's so obvious why the sofa is positioned as it is.  i had never "seen" it as clearly.

also this complaint:  (as morbid as it is) i caught in the previews to the borden section a close-up photo of andrew on the couch which was the best quality i've ever seen -- i planned to pause on it later after i had recorded it and try my digital camera on it -- but alas, they did not show it in the actual borden section.  your recent photo was the best i had ever seen, but this one was an improvement on that.
and i don't even know what i could get in a digital image of a tv screen, but i was going to try it.

I really don't know which window she was referring to. I'm not much of a believer in the supernatural but there are a lot of unexplained things that do happen. If such things ever do happen, the B&B would be a pretty logical place.

The amount of blood spots on the bed spread was pretty minimal. It was interesting the way they marked it so as you would know which way the spread was on the bed.  Didn't they say it was the police that did that?

It was kind of creepy when Martha McGinn told of when she was in the cellar and saw the form of that woman floating about 3 inches off the ground coming toward her.  The cellar is creepy enough by itself.

The whole show caught me by surprise as it wasn't advertised to my knowledge. My TV set is programmed to search for the words Lizzie Borden, Fall River, etc., either in the title or description of upcoming shows. It wasn't in either.  Since it was a half-hour show and consisted of 3 segments each must have been roughly 10 minutes, less ad time.  So I assume I didn't miss that much.

The FR Historical Society sells what are reputed to be crystal clear copies of the crime photos.  They are supposed to be sending Kat a catalog of the items they have for sale. Hopefully copies of the photos won't be too expensive.

New England Ghosts Welcome You! 
... READ GOOD SPIRITS. Newsletter Online. Watch for Paul on the Travel Channel's SECRETS OF HAUNTED NEW ENGLAND. Copyright © 2002 By New River Press. ...
www.newenglandghosts.com/ - 10k - Cached - More pages from this site
--

This is a Yahoo search.  Could this be your host in the New England/B&B segment?  Was it 2002?
I don't get Travel Channel if I want my lawn mowed.

I should contact the FRHS for that list.  My request has been forgotten.
The 2 Crime Scene photo's are in "Shots In The Dark", very clear, if you don't mind the other hanging photos, which I coud not look at.

The FRHS mentioned somewhere that the price had risen, as they would now print to order, sepia, in R.I.

--Thanks you guys!  That was interesting!

(Message last edited Nov-1st-03  9:18 PM.)

When Martha M. told the same stories on "Unsolved Mysteries", she specified it was the window @ the end of the little hall, or 2nd floor landing, where the door is to Andrew & Abby's bedroom & that small upstairs sink room.

Here's the floor plan & I marked the window's location in blue, as it isn't shown on this version --

Thanks Tina-Kate. 

I don't think I have ever seen a photo of that second floor landing.  I have a photo of the stairs leading up to the 3rd floor and one leading down to the 1st but none of the landing itself. Anybody have one they'd be willing to share?

This is the beginning of the second floor landing, I believe facing north.
The light source seems to be coming from below, and also in front of us.
Our back would be to Andrew's bewdroom.

Here is the window as it appears on the outside:


First photo, Stefani Koorey
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/92SecondStP1.htm

Second, Sherry Chapman:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/FallRiverPhotolog.htm

The first photo is of the back hallway, 2nd floor.
On the left  (East), right at the window, is the doorway to the attic area.
Straight ahead is the window  (North).  It's the large window, not the little one.



The second photo is of the new  (1997) bathroom in Andrew's bedroom.  It is the very last North-West room.  However, the bathroom doesn't look to go all the way back to the North wall, but maybe it does.  There also looks to be no opening to a *sink room* opposite that hall window (West).  That looks like panelling all the way down that second floor hall on the right.



In the kitchen area, first floor, that sink room doorway was closed off  the back hall and a bathroom corresponding to this one (in the same space, but maybe not the same size) was installed.  That supposedly does extend back to the outer North wall.

Maybe the second floor bathroom does also extend back to the North outside wall, encompassing this little window. (?)



The first 2 photos are from Stefani's movie I have privately.
The outside photo is from the LizzieAndrewBorden.com website, by Sherry Chapman.

(Message last edited Nov-3rd-03  1:19 AM.)

Thanks, Kat.  Is that room that is now a bathroom in Andrew's room over what was the old pantry or over what was the old sink room or both?  It looks like it opens directly into the Andrew's room, but, hard to tell. 

thanks for clarification about the window.  you talked about that in an earlier thread as i had forgot about it.  and thanks, kat, for the pictures.

i'm reading the Pearson book.  (Son of Pear?) 

obviously he's convinced she's guilty, that's well known.  which doesn't bother me.  you know, i think we are suffering from a lack of lizzie defenders.

a lot of what he writes is so hearsay -- who knows where it comes from?

i had to laugh at this, though.  is this sarcasm.  is he trying to be funny?

"The lack of exercise, or something, had an unfavorable effect upon her figure." (Pg. 79)

i'm just reading this as "writing," i suppose.  what about that "or something?" 

I love Pearson.  I've read all his Lizzie stuff.  Yes some rumor - but he created a new true crime audience here in the States, as Roughead etc. had done in England...and he kept the Legend alive.  i have respect for his writing.  I love Smutty Nose.
Of course he wrote from the viewpoint of everybody's guilty, and he truly believed that.

I think there's a restrained amount of *maybe Lizzie did it*.
Personally I and others don't know if she did or not.  We're still looking at this as her crime, or her involvement in this crime.
It goes around eventually, where *Lizzie didn't do it* gets examined also.

I missed this episode.  Darn. 

I do have a story for you on the haunting of the house.  I don't talk about it for fear that someone will make fun of me or say I'm a kook.  I stayed in Lizzie's room one night in July a few years ago and was alone in the house.  It was about 2am when I finally finished reading and turned out the lights.  I had put my contacts in my traveling contact case which is one of those flip-top cheap ones you get from any lenscrafters to temporarily store your contacts.  I was just about to drift off when I distinctly heard the case flip open - both sides and then close again.  I bolted awake and waited to hear more and didn't.  So I rolled over and sure enough it happened again.  I got up and turned the lights on and there was saline on the dresser and I know I didn't leave any there.  So that's my one little tidbit I can offer.  It sounds so stupid writing it down.  Not much but it's something.  I wish I could have seen Lizzie floating around somewhere - that would have been cool.  

Obviously she was trying to borrow some saline solution to soothe her "protruding" eyes!

Wouldn't Abby and Andrew be more likely to be haunting the house?  Still, I'm heavy into metaphysics, and I realize that a Lizzie haunting could be due to the amount of emotion and/or energy unleashed (or held in) while she was there.

LOL.  That was funny. 

Yea, I think if the house is haunted it's because of Abby and Andrew.  Typically when a soul leaves the body so suddenly and quickly, like a car accident or murder, it might not even realize it is dead and stick around doing the same boring chores etc.. that it did in life.  I was big into metaphysics.  Sore subject now.  I owned a very large metaphysical shop in CT and due to the economy and crime closed it about 4 months ago.  I miss it sometimes.  So I am very well-read on anything metaphysical.  Don't know if I believe all of it though.  Some stuff I do; some I question. 

I always liked this story about the medium who didn't think it was worthwhile trying to contact the spirit of Andrew or Abby.  It sounds so reasonable, considering the subject matter! :

SOURCEBOOK
pg. 129, Fall River Herald, August 14 or 15, 1892:

"Job Too Much For The Spirits

An Onset medium assured a Boston Globe reporter that there was a great diversity of opinion in the spirit world as to the identity of the person who murdered Mr. and Mrs. Borden.  'You see.' she said,' spirits don't know everything, at least many spirits do not.  And if they didn't happen to be looking just at the moment when the murder was committed they couldn't be expected to know about it.'
'But', ventured the reporter, 'couldn't Mr. and Mrs. Borden be hunted up in the spirit world and solve the mystery for us?'
'Yes, I suppose they might be found somewhere if a search were instituted for them.  But even if their whereabouts were discovered it's not certain they would know who the murderer was, for Mr. Borden was asleep and Mrs. Borden's back might have been turned.'
'But it would seem,' the reporter urged, 'that if Mr. and Mrs. Borden could be found and induced to tell all they know about the circumstances preceding the final deed, some clue or some corroboration of existing suspicions might be obtained.'
'Yes,' the medium assented vaguely, 'but the trouble is that when people go suddenly into the spirit world as Mr. and Mrs. Borden went, they are apt to be in a dazed or half-conscious state for a long while and unable to remember anything.'
The medium said that spirits often find as great difficulty as mortals in solving mysteries and she wouldn't undertake the job of trying to discover the Fall River murderer."

What crock of Sh#$%t that medium was.  In the business I was in I had the pleasure and displeasure of knowing alot of psychics/mediums -- some famous who came to my business for book signings of their latest books.  I met alot of shysters and this person soundeds like one to the "T".  Abby and Andrew most certainly know who did it.  Everything is revealed in death and many souls have been able to convey this in great detail to people that have honed their intuition.  Many mediums have been used by investigative officials to help solve a victim's murder.  I would love to get someone of great caliber to go to the house and see what they can pick up.  Most of the really good ones are arrogant and pains to deal with because it's gone to their heads. 

(Message last edited Nov-5th-03  1:46 PM.)

a)  Jeez, they've had over one hundred years to get unblocked.  I guess none of the Bordens "do anything in a hurry!"

b)  Since many of us no longer believe Andrew was asleep, let's ask HIM if he remembers who charged towards him with a hatchet/cleaver, etc. 

That would be an interesting and creepy seance to attend!!! 

(Message last edited Nov-6th-03  12:28 AM.)

Since Abby's face/flap wound was adjudged the first blow, standing facing, then I'd think if her spirit survives death, she would have the knowledge of who did this to her.
At least this medium did not ask or take money for her opinion.  Another was charging a thousand dollars!

I think if all this is true and the spirit survives physical death, the realm that is ascended into might be evolved  beyond wanting to finger a suspect--that that specific question might not matter anymore.

Thats very true, if your spirit is at peace, why would you care about earthly things anymore?  But, I have seen those shows like Unsolved Mysteries that have psychics that help the police with unsolved crimes and the spirits apparently speak to them, they do want to avenge their deaths and have their killers caught.

My highschool Spanish teacher was psychic.  You could give him a picture of someone in a sealed envelope and he could hold it and tell you all about that person.  I always wanted to do that with a picture of Lizzie, but, he specifically said, no pictures of people that were murdered, died violent deaths or were murderers as he physically felt these things and it really did a number on him.  So, not knowing for sure or not about Lizzie, I was afraid to find out the hard way. 

**I think if all this is true and the spirit survives physical death, the realm that is ascended into might be evolved  beyond wanting to finger a suspect--that that specific question might not matter anymore. **

now that's a very good point.  and/or what does then matter is quite beyond our current perspective.

I thought that the idea of solving crimes from dreams pretty much died out by the end of the 19th century.
Read E Pearson's story about "Uncle Amos Dreaming ...". They did believe in it in those days.
Read Douglas Ubelaker's book for modern day "dreams".

The popular British female singer of the 1950's "Alma Cogan" (1932-1966)recorded a great version of the song "Lizzie Borden" in 1956, which sadly "Rebello" did not mention in his book, although I forgive him as the book is the bible for Bordenites!

Aaron

Yea, Susan, kind of like there would be as many different views & preferences on this revenge thing, or justice in the afterlife as there are living souls on the planet now.

Maybe Andrew was so surprised and happy to find himself in Heaven that he no longer cared how he got there!

What makes you think he's in heaven?  He could be burning next to Hitler right now.  (smirk) After all, it didn't seem that most people liked him or thought him to be good guy.  He swindled alot of people out of money, I believe I read somewhere. 

I didn't know that Andrew had ripped people off but I have read that he was thought of as being cold, unfeeling and extremely tight-fisted. I wonder if his reputation had something to do with Lizzie's aquittal.

I'm an optimist.
Also, I think everybody can get there somehow.
It might take awhile for some more than others.
I don't believe in hell, I guess, just eternal evolving. 

We do have a couple of topic threads around here which give a view of the way different people viewed Andrew.
They are probably derived somewhat from the wealth of Rebello, if you'd like to shop around for differing opinions of the day...Here's one:

Arnold R Brown has some descriptions of Andrew J Borden. So too is the hard to find E Pearson "Trail of Lizzie Borden".
"Loathsome Miser" seems to be the best description.
"Forty Whacks" tells of his swindle of the Brayton Family.
...
It is certainly possible that an unpopular person may give sympathy to a killer. There was a show on TV about 10 years ago about the killing of a town bully, drug dealer, and pimp in a small Missouri town by his victims. He was shot in plain daylight, and the pistol dumped into concrete. But somebody talked, they always do.

(Message last edited Nov-10th-03  2:44 PM.)

Here's a Lizzie appearance that hasn't been mentioned. At least I don't think so.

"FRIDAY THE 13th---Thriller; 60 min.
A wax figure of Lizzie Borden in a carnival exhibit takes on a sinister cast when headless bodies start turning up. Ryan: John D. LeMay.
11:00 pm, March 4, 1989, TV Guide"

Get em, Liz.

Oh how cool!  I wonder if that was the TV series where this team had to search down cursed items, it was an interesting show.  I never saw that one if it is the same show. 

Today's "not guilty" verdict against that Durst guy was explained by saying his victim had a very bad reputation. Durst's high-priced legal team didn't hurt him at all.

The jury was quoted as saying "based on the fact presented, we could not find him guilty". He who controls the facts introduced into court controls the outcome. Any claims of a pay-off here?

and what happened to his wife?  strange case...

I don't know much about this but when they mentioned Dursts wife's disappearance in the past they also said authorities connected him to another disappearance years ago of some guy.

I suggest we end this thread and start a new one.  This one is over 330 posts long. That's a record!

(Message last edited Nov-13th-03  6:30 AM.)

It may very likely be that Durst is guilty of a lot more. But who will risk saying anything? Being rich is no guarantee of good morals. Of course, Paris Hilton may disagree with that opinion.

A generic title WILL attract many differing postings.
It shows the need to stay on subject. But doing this requires the time and judgment from an editor. Who will bell this cat?
(no pun intended.)

Well, I did try to keep this thread on topic by adding to it under the original idea.  But, we did have some interesting discussions on it.  Maybe we could remake the post with just the info about Lizzie's connections to popular culture? 

It's almost impossible to keep a thread on topic.  I mentioned the size only because it will be one heck of a long thread in the archives. Poor Stefani!

I do wish we all would make more of an effort to keep to the topic as it's hard to remember where you read something later on. It's just as easy to start a new thread as go down another trail on an old thread.

i agree.

i am trying to keep my "if lizzie acted alone" thread on topic.

one rule of thumb:  if you think you're saying something original, start anew.

Well, Dr. Frankenstein--I mean Susan, you've created a monster!

  Yes, I guess I did.  But, overall thats what our posts are for, to make people think, discuss, just not to this extent.  I would help with the editing if its at all possible? 

i went back to the very beginning of it.  i didn't realize how far it went back.  yes, there is good stuff on it.  the "lizzie and the stove" for instance and the heated discussions (former poster who would not stand for lizzie disparagement).

This topic should be very popular in the archives.
Have any of you Google-Searched yourselves lately?
And where is Kimberly?

There's still time to enter the NEWZLETTER contest! 
Anything else?...

(Message last edited Nov-15th-03  3:20 AM.)

Hello.

There she is! With a bright new smile!  (I guess you were
at the dentist?) missed you Kimberly!

Hello!

Hi Kimberly! 

Wow! Up to my 50th post already...

(Message last edited Dec-1st-03  9:52 PM.)

I've been having computer problems rather than guy
problems these past couple of weeks -- if I could
get online at all the pages would never load. Seems to
be working ok now, I have a lot of catching up to do! I
nearly fainted when I logged on this morning & saw that
#92 was for sale -- lets just hope the land isn't worth
more as a parking garage or something like that.

your first sentence clarifies everything.  hello.

Hello & welcome to you Mark! Hopefully you wont be bailing
out after 50 -- there aren't very many forum members who
are around & posting for very long.

I have Windows 95.

Don't worry, Kimberly. I plan on sticking arond for awhile. I enjoy reading all the different viewpoints on the case and the players in it especially Lizzie herself. 

Hi Kimberly!  I have Windows XP and have had a few glitches along the way too.  Hope things are fine now and we'll see ya' around more! 

Hi Kimberly! Thought I recognized those teeth.

May all your computer problems go away!

If you visited a Computer Shoe in the past couple of year, you would see that "Windows 98 Second Edition" was the preferred Operating System for clone manufacturere (they get to choose, unlike the Big Name brands). But, Microsoft has stopped publishing this version.
I hear of problems with Win XP that don't occure w/ Win 98. The computer magazines, who depend on advertising and only serve their advertisers, rarely mention this.

What's Your Experiences?

All I know about computers is how to get
online & apply for credit cards & shop.

Oooh! Everyone is talking about my teeth!
I feel like I just got a haircut.

Kimberly, can't you just feel the love??? 

This is my one & only forum & I would never want
another -- you'd think there would be more hostility
or something, considering what the subject is. If
The Night Stalker had a forum I bet there wouldn't
be a whole lot of love going on....

This is on CBS instead of Cold Case!  Boo!
Anyway, in the first 6 minutes or so Renee mutters "...took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks..."  I think her mother, Meryl, is a tad *touched* and Renee is trying to cope.


One True Thing (1998)   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CBS 5 Dec 28 08:30pm  Add to My Calendar
Movies, 150 Mins.

*** (Rated R)

At her father's request, a reluctant woman postpones her career to care for her dying mother. Adult Situations; Language.

Cast: Meryl Streep, Renee Zellweger, Ren‚e Zellweger, William Hurt, Tom Everett Scott, Lauren Graham, Nicky Katt, James Eckhouse, Patrick Breen, Gerrit Graham.
Director(s): Carl Franklin.
Producer(s): William W. Wilson III, Leslie Morgan, Harry Ufland, Jesse Beaton. Get more info at Yahoo! Movies...

I found this on a site for the FBI-Freedom of Information Act and am most curious about it.  I couldn't find out anything more about it.  Was it just a code name for a document or did the document in question pertain to Lizzie in some way?  Anyone? 

 

Lizzie Borden

Lizzie Borden is a one page document consisting of a one page letter sent to Director
Hoover on April 4, 1946, by a third party.

wow Susan that is very interesting. how could we get to see it?
Something else I saw on ebay today was a magazine with an interview
with Lizzie Borden, 1992.  Is there another LIzzie Borden we don't
know? 

If you do a Google Search for Lizzie Borden you will find a rock band and an avant garde film director, maybe more.

Susan, I have been to that site I think and I found downloads.
Is that not a download?  Maybe there is, deeper into the site.
Did you download any PDF's?

No, I didn't download anything from the site, I couldn't find the Lizzie Borden document at all.  They had different things to download on different people, but, I couldn't find anything listed for Hoover's letter.  Did you see it there? 

I wished to know if it was the same site.  Stef sent me there a long time ago.   I don't recall seeing Lizzie Borden.  I think I downloaded something on Miss Monroe and Bonnie and Clyde?

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex.htm

Is this the link?

It was in my "Favorites File".  The downloads I examined are still highlighted from over a year ago!
I looked at Lucille Ball and Tallulah Bankhead, also!

(Message last edited Jan-10th-04  10:22 PM.)

Yes, thank you, thats the site.  Isn't it maddening how they give such vague details on certain things?  Since the site seems to deal only in files on people that the FBI has, I would assume that letter to Hoover was on Lizzie.  But, what did it contain, new info on the case, a smoking hatchet? 

That's a great find ladies.

I'm going to send a letter to the FBI and request info on how to go about getting a copy.  Providing it's not too expensive we may be able to get to see it.

Can't for the life of me figure out what the FBI would want with Lizzie. She was dead almost 20 years in 1946. Maybe just curiousity. Maybe she heisted a few banks or kidnapped a kid. 

That rock band according to what I've read has been around since the '80s. They are named after the band's lead singer Lizzy Borden (not a typo) and they came out of the same LA heavy metal scene as Motley Crue.

Here is their bio. from AMG all Music Guide:

"In the wake of Mötley Crüe's meteoric rise to superstardom in 1983 on the strength of their now classic album Shout at the Devil, a countless amount of other similarly styled theatrical metal bands cropped up in the Los Angeles heavy metal community, including Lizzy Borden. Basically an '80s update of Alice Cooper (with some Iron Maiden-esque riffs mixed into the melting pot), the group built a substantial regional following on the West Coast with an over-the-top stageshow, but failed to break through commercially. Like Cooper, the band Lizzy Borden had a lead singer who shared the same name as the band, issuing several albums on the Metal Blade label from 1984-1990: 1984's Give 'Em the Axe, 1985's Love You to Pieces, 1986's The Murderous Metal Roadshow and Menace to Society, 1987's Terror Rising and Visual Lies, and 1989's Master of Disguise. Borden also appeared in the 1988 Penelope Spheeris-directed documentary about the '80s metal scene, The Decline of Western Civilization Part II. With the hard rock musical climate changing by the early '90s (and grand stageshows becoming old hat), Lizzy Borden decided to pack it in. Borden would go on to form a more retro-glam outfit, Diamond Dogs, in the '90s, but opted to reunite the Lizzy Borden group by the end of the decade, in time for 2000's Deal with the Devil and ensuing tours."

Found something else to share with all you Bordenites.  Have you ever seen those shows about those combat robots that people have competitions with?  Well this little beauty comes completely dressed in blue and with her own axe!  Say hello to Tin Lizzie Borden.



Testing of the axe yielded some impressive results. It was able to pierce the cover and 200 pages of a hard back book. It was also able to create a .4 inch long hole in 12 ga. sheet steel.

From this site: http://www.teamdesade.com/tlbltfrm.htm

IMO whoever built that contraption is fairly familar with the Lizzie Borden story and had way too much free time. 

I mailed a letter to the FBI yesterday for info on how to request a copy .

Told them to put aside everything else such as Homeland Security, kidnap cases, spies, etc. and work on something really important like getting us a copy of that Borden letter.  If you don't hear from me for a while you'll know why. 

Can I bring you a cake (with a file and rope in it)? Just kidding!!

You do know that any letter sent to the FBI results in a file being opened on you? Assuming you're not already in there.

My belief is that anybody who is anybody is in their files. When an old friend of mine became an Army officer (40+ yrs ago) his family was investigated by two FBI agents. News in that neighborhood travelled fast!

Thanks, Harry.  I hope you get a reply, everything listed there is supposed to be declassified now. 

That is funny, hope you get a reply it sure would be interesting.

I'm reading a Stephen King book ("From a Buick 8") and it
surprised me to come on to this sentence (page 124):
"The harsh black-and-white photo of Edith in the Post Gazette didn't
help her case, it made her look like Lizzie Borden about fifteen
minutes before she grabbed the hatchet." 
 

Wow, we've come full circle.  That's post #1.

Is it a good book?  I haven't read King in a while but I'm always willing.

i'll let you know my opinion.  i'm reading it now -- among several others.  i don't have an opinion on it yet.

his "on writing" book or what amounted largely to a sort of memoir -- that was very good.  but i think you said you read that.  that was well worth reading for several reasons.

I also enjoyed "On Writing", I think it was in that book I read
that he did his research for "From a Buick 8" by actually
going to a Pennsylvania town and riding with the troopers.

I learned a lot from that book and I think I took more notes from there than any book I ever read.
I wonder if King is interested in Lizzie?

I did too, I underlined a lot in that book.  Let's ask him if he
is interested in Lizzie!  He has a web site, do you want me to ask
or do you want to do the honors? 

I am shy of writing him.  It has been too long since I read him.

This (deja vu!) is how I got into a long harangue with one of our other posters, but I'd love to see a New Englander like King write either non-fiction or fiction about Lizzie. 

(Message last edited Jan-27th-04  2:09 PM.)

Any professional writer MUST measure the market for the topic.
Will it sell over 50,000 books? Just under 10,000?
Is it worth the time and effort?

An amateur like Brown or Sullivan (or Rebello?) or even Masterton must 'self-publish' since they have no track record to get an advance to write the book.

I'll write him a note through his web site and let you
know if he answers...

Well, I'd like to have a really cool Lizzie topic going if he looks in....

Brown, Arnold R. Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter. Nashville, TN: Rutledge Hill Press, 1991.

Masterton, William L. Lizzie Didn't Do It! Boston: Brandon Pub., 2000.

Sullivan, Robert. Goodbye Lizzie Borden. Brattleboro, VT: Stephen Greene Press, 1974.


I am not aware that any of these books have been self-published.
If anyone knows better, please post.

From Bibliography, LABVM/L
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources/BibliographyCase.htm

(Message last edited Jan-27th-04  7:29 PM.)

MY information comes from some other posters, and common sense.
Has ANYONE here published a book? Usually it requires putting up the money yourself. Established authors get an advance to write the book.

Darn, I can't get into the stephenking.com site. my computer just
stops and won't load the page. i'll keep trying! 

(still can't into Stephen King site) BUT I received a magazine from
Ebay bid, Esquire 1968.  A very long and wonderful article about
Dorothy Parker. New Yorker style where they actually write a good long
piece.  "She was filled with sympathy for all of society's victims....
On the other hand, Lizzie Borden, having been acquitted, would be forever guilty in Dottie's eyes, and she took it personally when a book written a few years back asserted her innocence..."  

(Message last edited Jan-31st-04  5:27 PM.)

Publishing a book usually entails submitting a proposal or a manuscript.  Self-publishing involves using your own money.

Nancie, try the URL below.  I was able to get to it stephenking.com and then to this page.

http://www.stephenking.com/index_flash.php

Thanks Harry for the link.  At least I got far enough to see the
"eye" and welcome message but it wouldn't completely load.  I waited
a long time and gave up. Maybe it is my computer not fast enough?
Maybe the site is down? did you get fully into the site?  Thanks anyway, I'll keep trying.

Yes, the whole screen loaded but I didn't attempt to go into it any further.

Today the studio recording of the floppo musical SHERRY! was released.  This was based on the classic play THE MAN WHO CAME TO DINNER, and so, there is a whole (short) number about "Harriet Sedley," the Lizzie Borden character in the play.  I'll listen to it tonight, but it seems very square-dancey (judging by the lyrics).   

(Message last edited Feb-24th-04  4:16 PM.)

This was filmed in the early 1940s? I saw it on PBS a few years ago. They didn't cut the scene where somebody mentions blackmail since "Harriet" (?) was accused axe-murderer.

The musical SHERRY! was never filmed, and didn't last very long on B'way.  The "Harriet Sedley" number, which I listened to last night, turns out to be a rather lame setting of the murder ditty, using "Harriet Sedley' for Lizzie Borden, and the "nicely done" version.  Then it turns into a living room square dance for a minute or so, performed around the blackmailee, Mr. Stanley.

THE MAN WHO CAME TO DINNER, upon which this show was based, was certainly filmed by Warner's in '42, with Monty Wooley reprising his B'way role as Sheridan Whiteside, the Alexander Woolcott character, and Bette Davis playing his loyal but put-upon secretary.  The Lizzie Borden stand-in, "Harriet Stanley/Sedley" was played by the British actress Ruth Vivian. 

(Message last edited Feb-25th-04  2:24 PM.)

Last night (March 1), I had the tv on as i was doing chores and I could not believe my ears.  It was the show "Countdown" (either CNBC or MSNBC).  The host began the show by talking about Lizzie Borden.  He said that Mr. and Mrs. Borden were murdered by "a deranged half-brother."  He used this to introduce the story of the family whose bodies were recently found in Mississippi.  He made a connection between the Borden murders and these murders by noting the involvement of deranged relatives.  Who knew that A.R. Brown's theory is now being presented as historical fact!!

I 1000% agree with AR Brown's theory (an attempt to explain facts that were not witnessed) as the final explanation.
But even a live Arnold R Brown would not claim it as "historical fact" (read his book).
People often take as fact the ONE BOOK they read. Being the last published explanation, this seems to be "the last word on the subject". (Because of its logical consistency.)
...
What will the future bring?


(Message last edited Mar-2nd-04  4:33 PM.)

I've just been in touch with cartoonist Rick Geary, author of THE BORDEN TRAGEDY, that graphic-novel exploration of the crimes which so many of us own and treasure - and recommend to "virgins."  He'd had some work published without accreditation in PREMIERE magazine, and I had written him to ask about it.  He responded this morning, graciously telling me he remembered our phone discussion a few years ago when THE BORDEN TRAGEDY was first released (I was so excited by it I just looked up his number and called him!).

He asked me to give him the URL of this site, and I reminded him that an interview with him is in the archives.  He continues to impress me as a warm and friendly gentleman, and I was certainly thrilled to hear back from him.           

Thanks, Bob, thats great!  I gave him the URL when I had contacted him many moons ago and as far as I know, Rick checked the site out?  He would be a cool addition to the forum! 

Bob, Susan conducted the interview and they both live in San Diego but they *did it * by e-mail! 

Thanks Susan!