The Lizzie Borden Society archive

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1. "Lunday, the Mystery  Unveiled"
Posted by adminlizzieborden on Jan-8th-02 at 9:31 PM

By stefani on Wednesday, 12/05/2001 - 04:36 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Just put up Todd Lunday's The Mystery Unveiled (1893) on the web site for you to download. It is a really fine work. The logic is impeccable.

One of the most important points he raises is that the timing of the murders was so precise as to defy coincidence. The killer never ran into Bridget or Lizzie (according to them at least) and they were in and around and about the house all morning. The odds of that working in the killer's favor are astronomical.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 03:56 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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The killer never ran into Bridget; she was never to know about him or the secret.
But Lizzie certainly knew about Wm S Borden, and, missed being killed herself by being outside. I think she was shocked by the result of the meeting. She recalled Uncle John, who helped concoct the coverup. If Lizzie wanted to, she could have given him up (and faced another scandal).

What would any of you have done in this case? Even if you cannot experience the time and the mores?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/10/2001 - 10:11 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:
I would not face prison or the hangman for my sibling's crime.

 
By raystephanson on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 09:19 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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To "kat" - Perhaps Lizzie did not share your opinion. Don't alot of people believe that "you have nothing to hide if you're not guilty"? Her uncle and her lawyer may have advised otherwise. JVM to avoid being an accessory; the lawyer for a nice FAT fee.

In reality, the prosecution may be looking to make themselves look good by closing cases? I once read that any murder conviction translates into hundreds of votes; from people who are so miserable that they feel better by seeing someone else killed. Think about the popularity of public executions in earlier times. It's what turned them on?

 
By kat on Monday, 12/17/2001 - 10:49 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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I am a Cancer-so was Lizzie. I am a female, spinster-so was Lizzie. I feel that I might have some valuable insights to share as to her personality, even though I am not a child of the 1860's, I'm a child of the 1950's. Our family consistently visited OLD (I mean OLD) relatives in the Harrisburg, State College area of Penn., all my young life, so I feel attuned and comfortable with people born at the turn of the century and their stories of their generations past..which also gives me insights. I'm not a time-traveler, so what I surmise is partly experience, common-sense, a little 'bull" to see what I can get away with (when we're just "Supposing, ONLY"), so that is my background (OH, and lots of books!) and you can "call me on it" anytime !!
I personally believe that you have nothing to hide if you're not guilty--but I KNOW Lizzie didn't tell all she knew--so she IS hiding something. Even if it's that she did eat that dang COOKIE after all!
BUT RAY: If she was an accessory after-the-fact, according to your Brown theory, than she WAS as guilty under the law as the person wielding the hatchet! If she aided, abbetted, gave succor to or shielded, or perjured herself FOR THE TRUE CRIMINAL, then she is guilty. Period.
I thought the prosecution ALSO knew more than they EVER put on show at the trial, so it was their choice to proceed the way they did--and their own downfall..but that's their job-to make those choices.

 
By raystephanson on Tuesday, 12/18/2001 - 02:29 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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to "kat" - what you say is true; except it ignores "the unwritten law", which still may be valid in some parts nowadays. From what I know over my lifetime (a few years older), AR Brown's book shows a knowledge of reality missing in the other books. Where he says "money and power can affect outcomes of trials, then or now". Do you agree? He is the only writer to note the general strike that occurred until a murderer was arrested. Could a deal have been made?

Harrisburg is state capital? Ever read about the Johnstown Flood, or visit the sites? Probably more victims than the WTC, according to population. Or Frisco earthquake or Chicago fire?

While she may have been legally guilty (like Uncle John, Uncle Hiram, Wm L Bassett, Emma, and ?) still she may have not been morally wrong to not say what she knew. What were the teachings of morality then or now? What would YOUR minister say?

 
By billu on Tuesday, 12/18/2001 - 06:17 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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There were more deaths caused by the incidents of September 11, 2001, than the combined events of the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake and the Johnstown Flood. More importantly, the tragedy that occurred on September 11 was mass murder, and shouldn't invite comparison.

 
By kat on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 02:34 am [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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Wow! I can't believe you finally said Lizzie might be "legally Guilty!"
Morally, I was wondering the other day, after I posted I would not "HANG" for my siblings crime, whether I would LIE or just misstate, or OMIT information to "save" a sibling from HANGING. This I'm not sure about--haven't decided yet.
Does anyone have an opinion on lying by ommission, or outright, to save a sibling, when by doing so, it saves a life, but cannot BRING ANYONE BACK?
I guess it would be a family thing...the same problem I still have with this lesser degree of culpulbility is EMMA & LIZZIE STILL PROFFITTED. (I'm underlining). If they were MORAL, wouldn't they have given UP their ill-gotten gains--built a hospital with the $, or donated it to charitable causes? AFTER THEIR DEATH IS TOO LATE!

PS: Fly The Flag

 
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 02:24 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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"Legally guilty" refers to "obstruction of justice", not murders. I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

I do not believe that the murders were premeditated; that was the whole point in trying to get Abby out of the house: so Andy could meet in private.

Lizzie was in no danger of hanging; electrocution had replaced it in 1892! Also, the case was fixed to get a not "guilty verdict". R Sullivan talks about the "incorruptibility" of Judge Dewey; he wouldn't take a bribe to let a guilty person off (my opinion), but AR Brown says he would take a bribe to let an innocent go free. Those who aren't 'witty' don't understand this. The story is that Lizzie paid off the judges and prosecution to be found not guilty seems true, but not that she was guilty.

 
By raystephanson on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 02:30 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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to "billu" - I don't have the figures for Chicago or San Francisco. Johnstown lists "2209" victims, but that was only for the first day's flood. There were hundreds more who died from injuries, exposure, and the resulting typhoid; they weren't counted. Based on an estimated 80 million population, or the area, that's a FAR HIGHER proportion that the WTC body count.

I also think the WTC deaths were due in part to criminal negligence: not evacuating the Towers immediately after the crash; and, the shoddy design and construction. Building #7 (?) also collapsed, even though it wasn't hit! Those other tragedies were followed by governmental investigations, but the WTC STILL hasn't been investigate!!!

 
By kat on Wednesday, 12/19/2001 - 10:27 pm [Edit] [Reply] [Msg Link]  
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EEK. Hide all your weapons, folks.
Then duck and take cover!
AHHH, Happy Holidays, Mr. Bill?