Point by point Audrey, first chill - nothing personal except you're cute.
Yes I am a proponent to a criminal justice system that is corrupt. I am not a crook.
Your physical appearance has nothing to do with anything except why do you display your picture (if it is you)? If physical attributes have nothing to do with anything why not leave them at home? Although your pic is cool.
I'm not going into my credentials because they have nothing to do with Lizzie Borden. Origionally I felt sorry for for her because I thought she was unjustly ostracized by the community. I contributed a lot of money to the Fall River Animal Humane Society in her name and there is a plack on the wall there with my name and hers. I'll give you more information about that and pictures if you pm me. I have very little interest in Lizzie Borden or the crime other than it's a perfect crime that perhaps could be solved with the likes of Kat! I read about this crime a while back but unfortunately have been cheated out of my reference books about it along with a lot of money a few years ago.
I certainly wasn't insulting you - where did you read that? - I think you're perhaps the most valuable asset to this site.
Truly, John
Bring back my Emma to me....
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Kat
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wintressanna
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yes if it would make it seem less likely that you are the killer, and also to control how the bodies are discovered, and be able to clue into whether or not your deed is discoverable or you really did cover it up well.
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theebmonique
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theebmonique
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OK...so when this topic was started, Emma was the subject at hand.
If I recall, it was brought up that maybe Emma did take the first possible train back to Fall River...that maybe THAT day there was not an earlier train. Did we ever decide if it could be determined WHY she took the 'circuitous' (wintressanna) route that she did ? Was that the only route at THAT time...on THAT day ? OK...I know I need to go check some testimony and my Rebello. And...I apologize if someone has already answered these questions and I am just too much of a dork to see it. OK...I am off to my Primary Sources disc and my Rebello.
Tracy...
If I recall, it was brought up that maybe Emma did take the first possible train back to Fall River...that maybe THAT day there was not an earlier train. Did we ever decide if it could be determined WHY she took the 'circuitous' (wintressanna) route that she did ? Was that the only route at THAT time...on THAT day ? OK...I know I need to go check some testimony and my Rebello. And...I apologize if someone has already answered these questions and I am just too much of a dork to see it. OK...I am off to my Primary Sources disc and my Rebello.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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wintressanna
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well that is the issue at hand...but i dont think we've gleaned enough from the testimonies to know if she took the circuitous roiutes or not. Im basing this from other posts listed NOT from an examination of the primary source documents which i do not have in my possession. What really is needed is an examination of the publications of train schedules, to point out positively whether or not she took the most direct route for that day. Of course we will need to consider this information in light of unforeseen events such as the possibility that the most direct route was in fact not available due to an accident on that particular day. Anyone who has done any travelling came verify that such things do occur. But as I stated previously I am not sure where one would locate such information...does anyone here know or have access to it????????????????? if not, that might be why this line of conversation was suddenly dropped.
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theebmonique
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You can get (download) most of the primary source documents for free via http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieABorden.htm But if you want a disc of your own, you can go through http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BordenBooks/index.htm, or subscribe to THE HATCHET, go through http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm, and get a subscriber's discount. Plus...there are MANY other valuable resources at these sites as well. Stef, Kat, and Harry have done a premier job in putting all of it together for us.
Chris, did you mention something about the access to or the lack of availability of the train schedules for that day ?
Looks like I need to get my own self to 'the website' and look for somethings...including a few extra hours everyday for things Lizzie.
Tracy...
Chris, did you mention something about the access to or the lack of availability of the train schedules for that day ?
Looks like I need to get my own self to 'the website' and look for somethings...including a few extra hours everyday for things Lizzie.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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FairhavenGuy
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wintressanna, hello,
I live here in Fairhaven where Emma was staying.
I'm am pretty certain that in 1892 there WAS a direct line from New Bedford to Fall River and it seems that is what Uncle John took on Wednesday at 12:30 p.m. It also seems to be what the jurors took from New Bedford to Fall River a year later on day two of the trial. To absolutely verify this line existed at that time, though, we would need train schedules from the newspapers or information from an expert on the history of the train lines to and from New Bedford.
The unfortunate circumstance regarding the train route is that theclosest in date of the commonly available atlases of Bristol County that clearly shows the train tracks and the stations was published in 1895, too late.
At any rate, the route from New Bedford north to Weir Junction, was not the most direct route, because the was ANOTHER junction, Myricks, in the Freetown/Lakevile area between New Bedford and Taunton. (The Taunton train route essentially followed close along what is now Route 140 North from New Bedford to Taunton.)
As I think I stated in an earlier post, here, both the New Bedford Evening Standard and the New Bedford Mercury are on file and on microfilm at the New Bedford Free Public Library. The train schedules were published just about daily and could be looked up. A researcher would have to physically go to the library. I imagine the Fall River Library has all the Fall River newspapers filed one way or another, too. I simply do not have the spare time to sit in either library poring over microfilm right now.
Any lack of information is only in the material that has been included in publications relating to Lizzie Borden, including Mr. Rebello's.
I live here in Fairhaven where Emma was staying.
I'm am pretty certain that in 1892 there WAS a direct line from New Bedford to Fall River and it seems that is what Uncle John took on Wednesday at 12:30 p.m. It also seems to be what the jurors took from New Bedford to Fall River a year later on day two of the trial. To absolutely verify this line existed at that time, though, we would need train schedules from the newspapers or information from an expert on the history of the train lines to and from New Bedford.
The unfortunate circumstance regarding the train route is that theclosest in date of the commonly available atlases of Bristol County that clearly shows the train tracks and the stations was published in 1895, too late.
At any rate, the route from New Bedford north to Weir Junction, was not the most direct route, because the was ANOTHER junction, Myricks, in the Freetown/Lakevile area between New Bedford and Taunton. (The Taunton train route essentially followed close along what is now Route 140 North from New Bedford to Taunton.)
As I think I stated in an earlier post, here, both the New Bedford Evening Standard and the New Bedford Mercury are on file and on microfilm at the New Bedford Free Public Library. The train schedules were published just about daily and could be looked up. A researcher would have to physically go to the library. I imagine the Fall River Library has all the Fall River newspapers filed one way or another, too. I simply do not have the spare time to sit in either library poring over microfilm right now.
Any lack of information is only in the material that has been included in publications relating to Lizzie Borden, including Mr. Rebello's.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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wintressanna
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hi there Fairhaven guy :)
I have noticed your posts in the past and value your input as someone who is well acquainted with and as far as ive seen judicious with information in regards to the Fair Haven area.
And I certainly understand what it can be like to pour through microfiched old newspapers. Ive done some genealogical research with small towns in Vermont and New York before (NOTE: I am not the worlds greatest genealogical investigator nor well broken into the field!) and have found that the concept that someone somewhere has taken tender loving care for all these historical resources in orderly fashion is in some cases purely mythological. The microfiche may supposed to reflect chronological order, but it in fact may not. There might be a page missing that turns up in the midst of the next reel, or the next reel after that. So it sounds easy just to go check out the newspaper for that day, and it may well be, but it also MAY NOT. I mean not to malign the librarians of this area but I have found it so in some cases in my experience.
But I must also add, that without this crucial piece it does mean the line of conversation may be somewhat limited. I dont mean to indicaate that your reassurance that it is nearly certain there would have been a more direct route available is baseless, it seems like you know the area and seems also very likely this would be the case. I guess Id just like to know what happened that day...and really wonder why Emma would not have chosen the more direct route.
But again as I said before, there seems to have been a tense atmosphere in that house right at that time, and this is another possible piece to that. I really wonder what was going on, what the conversations were about, what was everyone so scared of--was it murder? Or were the murders in reaction to it (the reason for the tension)?
I have noticed your posts in the past and value your input as someone who is well acquainted with and as far as ive seen judicious with information in regards to the Fair Haven area.
And I certainly understand what it can be like to pour through microfiched old newspapers. Ive done some genealogical research with small towns in Vermont and New York before (NOTE: I am not the worlds greatest genealogical investigator nor well broken into the field!) and have found that the concept that someone somewhere has taken tender loving care for all these historical resources in orderly fashion is in some cases purely mythological. The microfiche may supposed to reflect chronological order, but it in fact may not. There might be a page missing that turns up in the midst of the next reel, or the next reel after that. So it sounds easy just to go check out the newspaper for that day, and it may well be, but it also MAY NOT. I mean not to malign the librarians of this area but I have found it so in some cases in my experience.
But I must also add, that without this crucial piece it does mean the line of conversation may be somewhat limited. I dont mean to indicaate that your reassurance that it is nearly certain there would have been a more direct route available is baseless, it seems like you know the area and seems also very likely this would be the case. I guess Id just like to know what happened that day...and really wonder why Emma would not have chosen the more direct route.
But again as I said before, there seems to have been a tense atmosphere in that house right at that time, and this is another possible piece to that. I really wonder what was going on, what the conversations were about, what was everyone so scared of--was it murder? Or were the murders in reaction to it (the reason for the tension)?
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
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Susan
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If Emma did indeed take the longer route to get home I'm left with an unappetizing view of her. If the telegram sent to her was too soft in its message, say that Andrew was only ill, please hurry home and she didn't, it makes her look like she really didn't care to hurry to Andrew's bedside. And the only other reason I can think of for Emma not to hurry is that she knew what had happened at home already and didn't want to rush to get involved. So, she must have had some guilty foreknowledge that something would happen while she was away. 
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wintressanna
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Yeah I know what you mean. Especially cause it doesnt sound like Andrew was the type to stay home sick very often, or to complain of illness and miss out on business. But it really is difficult to say without knowing what the telegram actually said.
One thing that occurred to me, which is EXTREMELY SPECULATIVE, but if Emma really was docile and manipulatable, I wonder if the delay in coming home had something to do with a courtesy she was talked into regarding those she was visiting. After all, it was established that the telegram was toned down to spare the aging mother the stress of the tragedy...sometimes an aging mother who needs to be spared stress is a person who is uptight and overbearing, no? BUT WAIT A MINUTE, didnt the suggestion to tone down the telegram come from Lizzie? Did Lizzie think Emma had reason to suspect her of murder and didnt want Emma to find out just yet? And if so, would Bowen have inferred this and not toned the note down so much after all? So much really is possible.
Another possibility ocurred to me regarding Emma's circuitous route home.. either A> to meet someone or B> to dispose of a murder weapon, if it somehow someway got to where she could dispose of it on the way home.
Okay, none of this takes us anywhere factual but the endless possibilities are fascinating.
One thing that occurred to me, which is EXTREMELY SPECULATIVE, but if Emma really was docile and manipulatable, I wonder if the delay in coming home had something to do with a courtesy she was talked into regarding those she was visiting. After all, it was established that the telegram was toned down to spare the aging mother the stress of the tragedy...sometimes an aging mother who needs to be spared stress is a person who is uptight and overbearing, no? BUT WAIT A MINUTE, didnt the suggestion to tone down the telegram come from Lizzie? Did Lizzie think Emma had reason to suspect her of murder and didnt want Emma to find out just yet? And if so, would Bowen have inferred this and not toned the note down so much after all? So much really is possible.
Another possibility ocurred to me regarding Emma's circuitous route home.. either A> to meet someone or B> to dispose of a murder weapon, if it somehow someway got to where she could dispose of it on the way home.
Okay, none of this takes us anywhere factual but the endless possibilities are fascinating.
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
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Kat
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1889 schedule:
New Bedford to Fall River.
New Bedford leaves 7:05 10am 12:35PM 5:45Pm
arrives FR 7:40, 1:10, and 6:20
From Stef. She has a train schedule, 1889.
Harry's interpretation of Emma's trip based on the 1889 schedule which was scanned and sent to him, and information we have on Weir Junction:
"She [would leave] the Pearl St. Station in New Bedford on the 3:40 to Weir Junction.
That arrived at 4:19. She [would leave] Weir Junction on the 4:48.
That arrived at the Bowenville station, Fall River at 5:14."
*All times subject to change somewhat between 1889 and 1892.
New Bedford to Fall River.
New Bedford leaves 7:05 10am 12:35PM 5:45Pm
arrives FR 7:40, 1:10, and 6:20
From Stef. She has a train schedule, 1889.
Harry's interpretation of Emma's trip based on the 1889 schedule which was scanned and sent to him, and information we have on Weir Junction:
"She [would leave] the Pearl St. Station in New Bedford on the 3:40 to Weir Junction.
That arrived at 4:19. She [would leave] Weir Junction on the 4:48.
That arrived at the Bowenville station, Fall River at 5:14."
*All times subject to change somewhat between 1889 and 1892.
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Audrey
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Kat
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Harry
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I was assuming that the earliest train she could have taken out of New Bedford was the 3:40.
There was an earlier train that left at 1:30 and arrived at Weir Junction at 2:05. The trouble with that is that the next train out of Weir Junction was still the 4:48.
To further complicate it she could have taken the 1:30 to Weir Junction and then some transportation from Weir Junction to Weir Village and caught the 3:30 train out of Weir Village and arrived in Fall River at 3:58.
I have no knowledge how far it is from Weir Junction to Weir Village.
There was an earlier train that left at 1:30 and arrived at Weir Junction at 2:05. The trouble with that is that the next train out of Weir Junction was still the 4:48.
To further complicate it she could have taken the 1:30 to Weir Junction and then some transportation from Weir Junction to Weir Village and caught the 3:30 train out of Weir Village and arrived in Fall River at 3:58.
I have no knowledge how far it is from Weir Junction to Weir Village.
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Susan
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Yes, I agree, Emma's options may have been limited as to what train she could catch due to having to pack and such. But, if she purposefully took a longer route to get home, thats the one that makes me think sour thoughts about Emma. How often does one get a telegram that a family member is sick and your presence is required?
I think that I keep getting stuck in our time with our wash and wear clothes and how if it was me, I'd just throw everything into the suitcase and worry about the wrinkled, mussed clothing when I got home and to get home as fast as humanly possible. I guess it wasn't so easy in 1892 packing up those dresses with the yards and yards of material in the skirts that must have taken forever and a day to iron! And how would you pack something like that anyway? Fold it? Roll it up?
I think that I keep getting stuck in our time with our wash and wear clothes and how if it was me, I'd just throw everything into the suitcase and worry about the wrinkled, mussed clothing when I got home and to get home as fast as humanly possible. I guess it wasn't so easy in 1892 packing up those dresses with the yards and yards of material in the skirts that must have taken forever and a day to iron! And how would you pack something like that anyway? Fold it? Roll it up?
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Kat
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!!Emma, if these times are somewhat consistent, would have taken a longer journey, but arrived earlier than the direct route because of the train schedule Harry offered compared to the route Stef wrote about.
Meaning, she says she arrived around 5. She would have arrived around 5:14 by going the long way. Whereas, according to these timetables, the direct route didn't leave until 5:45 getting into Fall River at 6:20
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FairhavenGuy
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Once more, though, an 1889 schedule may not be accurate for 1892. There could very well be seasonal differences, too, as with today's ferry schedules here.
Or even daily differences.
The schedule in the New Bedford Standard printed on Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, doesn't include a 12:30 departure, which Morse says he took on Wednesday.
The 1889 schedule shows no 3:40 departure, yet the Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, Standard does.
We really need to see all the schedules on all the routes for Thursday, Aug. 4, 1892. That's the only way to be certain.
Or even daily differences.
The schedule in the New Bedford Standard printed on Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, doesn't include a 12:30 departure, which Morse says he took on Wednesday.
The 1889 schedule shows no 3:40 departure, yet the Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, Standard does.
We really need to see all the schedules on all the routes for Thursday, Aug. 4, 1892. That's the only way to be certain.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Harry
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Absolutely, Chris.
We need to see not only the schedules in effect on August 4th but also Dr. Bowen's telegram to Emma telling her the trains to take. Since he said he returned to his home to check the train schedules I'm assuming he included the details in his telegram.
We need to see not only the schedules in effect on August 4th but also Dr. Bowen's telegram to Emma telling her the trains to take. Since he said he returned to his home to check the train schedules I'm assuming he included the details in his telegram.
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Haulover
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***We need to see not only the schedules in effect on August 4th but also Dr. Bowen's telegram to Emma telling her the trains to take. Since he said he returned to his home to check the train schedules I'm assuming he included the details in his telegram.***
that's another good point.
in all probability she got home as quickly as she could.
if there was a direct route that day at 12:30 -- if emma got the message around 11:30, i don't think she could have actually readied herself and been on that train at 12:30 -- anyway. 1892 AND gender?
i've been watching "gunsmoke" every morning at 6:00 am -- matt would have been on a horse immediately and beat the 11:30 train; maybe miss kitty could do it.
that's another good point.
in all probability she got home as quickly as she could.
if there was a direct route that day at 12:30 -- if emma got the message around 11:30, i don't think she could have actually readied herself and been on that train at 12:30 -- anyway. 1892 AND gender?
i've been watching "gunsmoke" every morning at 6:00 am -- matt would have been on a horse immediately and beat the 11:30 train; maybe miss kitty could do it.
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FairhavenGuy
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Just so we can see the routes.
RED is the route Emma took home via Taunton.
BLUE is the New Bedford to Fall River line.
The yellowish color is the line from Myricks to Fall River.
New Bedford to Taunton is the oldest route, beginning July 1, 1840.
Fall River to Myricks was added in 1845.
Fall River to Taunton, through Dighton, was added sometime after 1845.
The direct New Bedford to Fall River line was added about 1875.
RED is the route Emma took home via Taunton.
BLUE is the New Bedford to Fall River line.
The yellowish color is the line from Myricks to Fall River.
New Bedford to Taunton is the oldest route, beginning July 1, 1840.
Fall River to Myricks was added in 1845.
Fall River to Taunton, through Dighton, was added sometime after 1845.
The direct New Bedford to Fall River line was added about 1875.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Susan
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Thanks, Chris. So, did the New Bedford line actually stop just outside of Fall River or is that some sort of map typo? I'm thinking whether Emma took the red route or blue route, she probably would hire a carriage to get her home. But, were those carriages like taxis today? Pay for the amount of the trip or was there just a flat fee to hire one? It may have influenced her choice of what line to take.
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FairhavenGuy
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The New Bedford line went right into Fall River. After passing through Westport, it crosses between North and South Watuppa ponds, as Route 6 and I-195 do today. The tracks, I think, are still there. A modern map shows train tracks ending at Plymouth Ave. less than a 1/2 mile from Second Street. That is, in fact, closer to the Borden House than the train tracks from the Fall River to Taunton line, which run along the Taunton River. In Rebello (page 569) a map shows the Bowenville Depot in the north part of Fall River close to where the Taunton and Myricks lines branch. That's a lot farther from 92 Second Street than the New Bedford line.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Kat
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Christopher is right in what he says about needing exact info for the day. We were offering alternative ways of looking at Emma's reason for coming into town at the time she did- within reason.
I would think that trains ran schedules which were most closely geared to their client's needs. I don't think there would be a huge difference in the times, except for otherwise adding another run as demand dictated. I also think that once the shedule was made, people would then depend on that so big changes would be bad for business.
It's just an alternative view which might exonorate Emma's character. Personally, I think she would head back as soon as she could.
Now is the question why didn't she take a "cab" all the way?
It might be an interesting question and answer.
There were 3 RR stations in Fall River on the Boston line:
Bowenville, Wharf & Ferry Street, in 1889.
I would think that trains ran schedules which were most closely geared to their client's needs. I don't think there would be a huge difference in the times, except for otherwise adding another run as demand dictated. I also think that once the shedule was made, people would then depend on that so big changes would be bad for business.
It's just an alternative view which might exonorate Emma's character. Personally, I think she would head back as soon as she could.
Now is the question why didn't she take a "cab" all the way?
It might be an interesting question and answer.
There were 3 RR stations in Fall River on the Boston line:
Bowenville, Wharf & Ferry Street, in 1889.
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Susan
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Sorry, I notice I didn't put it in my post, but, what I had meant was whatever station in Fall River that Emma ended at, she would have to hire a carriage to get her home. I'm thinking that if she packed a trunk and bags, she couldn't walk home with all that. That is an interesting idea, would it have been cheaper to hire a ride back home in a carriage vs. a train? Do we have prices for the train along with the schedules?
Thank you, Chris. I thought maybe the one train line ended sooner, hence a longer trip from the station to get to the Borden house.
Thank you, Chris. I thought maybe the one train line ended sooner, hence a longer trip from the station to get to the Borden house.
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Kat
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Yes, I understood about the cab carrying luggage to the station and home from the station, but you also gave me the idea of a "stage" or other conveyance, horse-drawn, which might be quicker if not cheaper 
but probably not.
I wonder why Emma did not hire a ride/carriage?
Here is the Evening Standard ad for Old Colony RR, which FHG quoted. Here also is an ad for the stage. Dated August 5th, a Friday, 1892.
but probably not.I wonder why Emma did not hire a ride/carriage?
Here is the Evening Standard ad for Old Colony RR, which FHG quoted. Here also is an ad for the stage. Dated August 5th, a Friday, 1892.
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Harry
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Let's not forget that when Lizzie was acquitted that's exactly what she did do -- hire a carriage. This is in Rebello, page 253+, and was taken from the Boston Daily Globe, dated 6-21-1893:
"Lizzie quietly left the court house for the stable with the assistance of her black coachman, Little Abram Lee. It was Mr. Lee who drove Lizzie to and from the court house during the trial. Reporters and the crowds assumed Lizzie was headed for the train station. At 5:32 p.m. Emma, Lizzie, Mr. and Mrs. Holmes, and Att. Robinson were on the rocky road from New Bedford to Fall River in Kirby & Hicks Stable's brand new landau. It was drawn by two black horses set off with gold mounted harnesses.
The first two miles was up and down hills and comparatively smooth traveling. The new landau traveled cautiously to avoid bumps from the construction of a new electric street railroad. In a little over an hour, they reached 67 Pine Street, the home of Mr. Charles J. Holmes to celebrate the verdict. The next morning Emma and Lizzie went to Second Street."
Gov. Robinson, did not accompany them to Fall River. They dropped him off at the Ash Street jail in New Bedford before proceeding.
Of course the "girls" were in the money then, while Emma in 1892 had to make do on her $4.00 a week allowance. I think the money would have been a non-issue if the seriousness of the situation was realized. Another reason to know what was in that telegram from Dr. Bowen.
"Lizzie quietly left the court house for the stable with the assistance of her black coachman, Little Abram Lee. It was Mr. Lee who drove Lizzie to and from the court house during the trial. Reporters and the crowds assumed Lizzie was headed for the train station. At 5:32 p.m. Emma, Lizzie, Mr. and Mrs. Holmes, and Att. Robinson were on the rocky road from New Bedford to Fall River in Kirby & Hicks Stable's brand new landau. It was drawn by two black horses set off with gold mounted harnesses.
The first two miles was up and down hills and comparatively smooth traveling. The new landau traveled cautiously to avoid bumps from the construction of a new electric street railroad. In a little over an hour, they reached 67 Pine Street, the home of Mr. Charles J. Holmes to celebrate the verdict. The next morning Emma and Lizzie went to Second Street."
Gov. Robinson, did not accompany them to Fall River. They dropped him off at the Ash Street jail in New Bedford before proceeding.
Of course the "girls" were in the money then, while Emma in 1892 had to make do on her $4.00 a week allowance. I think the money would have been a non-issue if the seriousness of the situation was realized. Another reason to know what was in that telegram from Dr. Bowen.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Susan
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Well, I tried to search for some prices for train vs. stage or carriage. I found 1884 prices for a train line to Boston:
The Boston & Albany, the New York & New England (soon to be called the New York, New Haven & Hartford) continued to operate trains over the B & A lines to Boston. As a result of this rail connection at the Highlands, the rail service through Upper Falls was very prosperous . The freight tonnage was heavy and the passenger traffic brisk, not only to Boston and return (especially of Saturdays) but between the villages as well. This was mainly because of commuters to the factories at Upper Falls and the knitting mills in Needham. The fare between stations was 5¢ for the round trip, Newton Highlands to Boston 25 ¢, and $16 for a three month 180 ride ticket from Upper Falls to Boston.
From this site:
http://www.channel1.com/users/hemlock/M ... tation.htm
I couldn't really find anything on stagecoach fares, but, I did find
this site that has info on Fall River in the past, not quite 1892, but, interesting nontheless.
http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/phillips3-4.pdf
The Boston & Albany, the New York & New England (soon to be called the New York, New Haven & Hartford) continued to operate trains over the B & A lines to Boston. As a result of this rail connection at the Highlands, the rail service through Upper Falls was very prosperous . The freight tonnage was heavy and the passenger traffic brisk, not only to Boston and return (especially of Saturdays) but between the villages as well. This was mainly because of commuters to the factories at Upper Falls and the knitting mills in Needham. The fare between stations was 5¢ for the round trip, Newton Highlands to Boston 25 ¢, and $16 for a three month 180 ride ticket from Upper Falls to Boston.
From this site:
http://www.channel1.com/users/hemlock/M ... tation.htm
I couldn't really find anything on stagecoach fares, but, I did find
this site that has info on Fall River in the past, not quite 1892, but, interesting nontheless.
http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/phillips3-4.pdf
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wintressanna
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john
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Allen
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I have only been able to keep up with a few threads lately, but my homework is finally starting to slow down to a trickle 
.Soon it'll be Spring Break and doesn't that weeks vacation sound good! I have went back and read this thread from the beginning to make sure I was caught up and I have a few questions. May seem irrelevant but here they are:
Does anyone know how much it cost to send that telegram? Would the office that received it have retained a copy of its contents as well? And could the reason Emma did not rush back to Andrew's side if she believed he was sick, be because he had already been sick for a few days? Wasn't she aware of this? If she received the telegram from the Dr. Bowen could she have thought he was just trying to inform her of something she was already aware of if it was just worded that Andrew was "sick"?
.Soon it'll be Spring Break and doesn't that weeks vacation sound good! I have went back and read this thread from the beginning to make sure I was caught up and I have a few questions. May seem irrelevant but here they are:Does anyone know how much it cost to send that telegram? Would the office that received it have retained a copy of its contents as well? And could the reason Emma did not rush back to Andrew's side if she believed he was sick, be because he had already been sick for a few days? Wasn't she aware of this? If she received the telegram from the Dr. Bowen could she have thought he was just trying to inform her of something she was already aware of if it was just worded that Andrew was "sick"?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Audrey
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But, if she had known he had been ill to get a telegram from the family doctor should have struck terror into her-- if she cared about her father.
If she had NO prior knowledge as to what was going to happen-- and was 100% innocent in the deaths you would think she would have rushed to his side thinking he was seriously ill...
I don't think Ms Emma was the milquetoast she has been portrayed as...
If she had NO prior knowledge as to what was going to happen-- and was 100% innocent in the deaths you would think she would have rushed to his side thinking he was seriously ill...
I don't think Ms Emma was the milquetoast she has been portrayed as...
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theebmonique
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Melissa,
Spring Break is always good. We teachers like it too. Are you going through a P.O.S.T. course, or are you going after a regular college degree ? Do you have to take general credit classes like English and such ?
Audrey,
I too think that if Emma were 100% innocent it would tend to make her want to hurry back. If she was even a bit aware of what might happen, I would think she may not feel as if she had to rush...but then if she didn't rush...how would that look ? I am still a bit on the fence about whether or not she 'hurried' back...and 'why/why not'.
Was Emma aware of Andrew and Abby being sick in the days prior to the murders...had Lizzie notified her...or had she gone to Fairhaven before all the sickness occured ?
Tracy...
Spring Break is always good. We teachers like it too. Are you going through a P.O.S.T. course, or are you going after a regular college degree ? Do you have to take general credit classes like English and such ?
Audrey,
I too think that if Emma were 100% innocent it would tend to make her want to hurry back. If she was even a bit aware of what might happen, I would think she may not feel as if she had to rush...but then if she didn't rush...how would that look ? I am still a bit on the fence about whether or not she 'hurried' back...and 'why/why not'.
Was Emma aware of Andrew and Abby being sick in the days prior to the murders...had Lizzie notified her...or had she gone to Fairhaven before all the sickness occured ?
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Allen
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When I am through with my current schooling I will have a bachelors degree in Criminal Justice. I planned on eventually going for my Masters. Yes, I do have to take core requirement classes, I think this is what you were referring to. I also enjoy those very much. Core requirements include College Composition I &II, Sociology, Psychology, Speech Communication (got used to giving speeches, but man were my palms sweaty),Statistics, and College Algebra.Then I have the criminal justice classes themselves. I also took classes that were not part of my course requirements,simply because I enjoyed them. These included a history class that covered the history of the United States, and a class dealing only with Shakespeare. I had Hamlet coming out of my ears by the end of the semester. That was my professor's favorite. Well anyway, I'm way off topic, but I enjoy talking about my classes because I enjoy going to school very much. It is one of the best things I have done for myself.theebmonique @ Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:00 pm wrote:Melissa,
Spring Break is always good. We teachers like it too. Are you going through a P.O.S.T. course, or are you going after a regular college degree ? Do you have to take general credit classes like English and such ?
Tracy...
. I apologize."He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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FairhavenGuy
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We keep saying the telegram may have said Andrew was "ill" or "sick," so as not to shock poor Mrs. Brownell or Mrs. Delano (both of whom were up there in years.) But couldn't the message have said something like "You must return home soonest! Take 3:40 via Taunton." or "Urgent! Return on 3:40 train."
In the inquest interview, Bowen says he checked the railroad schedule and concluded Emma couldn't come on an earlier train. He probably noted the train time in the telegram.
In the inquest interview, Bowen says he checked the railroad schedule and concluded Emma couldn't come on an earlier train. He probably noted the train time in the telegram.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Smudgeman
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john
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how do you know that mrs. brownell was elderly? the only estimate of her age at the time i've ever seen was that she was about 24 years old. further, lizzie said "there is 'an' elderly woman there," and she didn't want to alarm her, probably meaning mrs. delano. singularly, 'an.'
if emma's alibi was checked as thouroughly as the rest of the case, we probably don't know much about it.
if emma's alibi was checked as thouroughly as the rest of the case, we probably don't know much about it.
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FairhavenGuy
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We know that Mrs. Rebecca (Delano) Brownell was 78. Her brother, shipbuilder Moses Delano, was 72. His wife Amanda F. Delano was 74.
Emma's friend was Miss Helen M. Brownell. She was a 54 year old dressmaker.
Moses was born July 21, 1820 in Rochester, MA. (Present-day Rochester, Mattapoisett or Marion)
Rebecca (Delano) Brownell was the widow of Capt. Allen Brownell (1801-1884). She was born Aug. 2, 1814, also in Rochester. She married Allen Brownell on October 19, 1837. Capt. Brownell died June 16, 1884. Rebecca died March 24, 1897, at age 82.
Rebecca and Moses Delano were siblings, children of Joshua and Eunice (Ellis) Delano.
Helen Mar Brownell was born in March 27, 1838. She was the third of five children, the others of whom had all died by 1892.
We know this from various Fairhaven records and genealogical research.
The whole gang of them is listed at 19 Green St. in the town's 1892 street directory. It was Moses Delano's house.
Emma's friend was Miss Helen M. Brownell. She was a 54 year old dressmaker.
Moses was born July 21, 1820 in Rochester, MA. (Present-day Rochester, Mattapoisett or Marion)
Rebecca (Delano) Brownell was the widow of Capt. Allen Brownell (1801-1884). She was born Aug. 2, 1814, also in Rochester. She married Allen Brownell on October 19, 1837. Capt. Brownell died June 16, 1884. Rebecca died March 24, 1897, at age 82.
Rebecca and Moses Delano were siblings, children of Joshua and Eunice (Ellis) Delano.
Helen Mar Brownell was born in March 27, 1838. She was the third of five children, the others of whom had all died by 1892.
We know this from various Fairhaven records and genealogical research.
The whole gang of them is listed at 19 Green St. in the town's 1892 street directory. It was Moses Delano's house.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Kat
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"the only estimate of her age at the time i've ever seen was that she was about 24 years old."--john
Do you know where you got that information from?
____________
Evening Standard,Aug. 5th, 1892
..."It is now ascertained that Miss Emma Borden, a daughter of Mr. Andrew J. Borden, one of the victims of the Fall River tragedy, was visiting the widow of Alan Brownell of Fairhaven, who resides in the east part of the town. She returned to Fall River yesterday. Miss Borden has many acquaintances in this city."
.......
--Emma may have not even been at the home of her hosts when the telegram came.
_______
Also, About Lizzie's letter and the illness of the elder Bordens. Here is something from the Evening Standard, Aug. 24th:
"Fall River, Aug. 24. --- It transpires that at the coming trial of Lizzie Borden, her letter-writing will form a feature of the evidence both for the State and the defence. The prisoner has told an intimate friend since her arrest the story of a letter which she wrote to her sister Emma, who was at the time visiting in Fairhaven. The letter was mailed two days before, and reached its destination one day before the murder. It contained a description of a singular experience which Lizzie said she had the Monday night before the murder. She was on her way to the house, according to the letter, at about 8 o'clock in the evening, and upon entering the side gate she saw a suspicious character in the back yard. The man ran at sight of her, and this action of his created much uneasiness in Lizzie's mind. She could not rest without making further inquiry into the matter, so she watched the yard from the upper window of her room, and saw what she concluded was the same man walking through the yard. It was dark and she could not give a good description of him. From the other things she saw, Lizzie concluded that the house was being shadowed.
The circumstances as above related were told in the letter which Lizzie wrote the next morning and mailed to Emma at Fairhaven. Emma thought the matter rather strange and she showed the letter to several persons there who read it and who, it is said, are willing to testify to its contents. Emma then destroyed the letter.
The matter first came out at the inquest when the district attorney asked Lizzie if she had seen any suspicious characters about the house. To this question Lizzie replied that she had not on the day of the murder, but that she had on Monday night. Then she told the story of the letter which has since been investigated by the police and proven to be in the main correct."
--It's possible, if Lizzie wrote to Emma on Monday evening and the letter was sent on Tuesday, and received on Wednesday, then Lizzie may not have written Emma again until the Wednesday- which was mailed on Thursday morning. Therefore, since the Bordens were sick Tuesday night and Wednesday, Emma probably did not know about it. It seems Lizzie wrote about a Monday night prowler- and the Thursday letter which was returned may have had the illness info in it. Chances are Emma did not know that Andrew and Abby were sick, unless she had some prior knowledge and in on the upcoming crime.
Do you know where you got that information from?
____________
Evening Standard,Aug. 5th, 1892
..."It is now ascertained that Miss Emma Borden, a daughter of Mr. Andrew J. Borden, one of the victims of the Fall River tragedy, was visiting the widow of Alan Brownell of Fairhaven, who resides in the east part of the town. She returned to Fall River yesterday. Miss Borden has many acquaintances in this city."
.......
--Emma may have not even been at the home of her hosts when the telegram came.
_______
Also, About Lizzie's letter and the illness of the elder Bordens. Here is something from the Evening Standard, Aug. 24th:
"Fall River, Aug. 24. --- It transpires that at the coming trial of Lizzie Borden, her letter-writing will form a feature of the evidence both for the State and the defence. The prisoner has told an intimate friend since her arrest the story of a letter which she wrote to her sister Emma, who was at the time visiting in Fairhaven. The letter was mailed two days before, and reached its destination one day before the murder. It contained a description of a singular experience which Lizzie said she had the Monday night before the murder. She was on her way to the house, according to the letter, at about 8 o'clock in the evening, and upon entering the side gate she saw a suspicious character in the back yard. The man ran at sight of her, and this action of his created much uneasiness in Lizzie's mind. She could not rest without making further inquiry into the matter, so she watched the yard from the upper window of her room, and saw what she concluded was the same man walking through the yard. It was dark and she could not give a good description of him. From the other things she saw, Lizzie concluded that the house was being shadowed.
The circumstances as above related were told in the letter which Lizzie wrote the next morning and mailed to Emma at Fairhaven. Emma thought the matter rather strange and she showed the letter to several persons there who read it and who, it is said, are willing to testify to its contents. Emma then destroyed the letter.
The matter first came out at the inquest when the district attorney asked Lizzie if she had seen any suspicious characters about the house. To this question Lizzie replied that she had not on the day of the murder, but that she had on Monday night. Then she told the story of the letter which has since been investigated by the police and proven to be in the main correct."
--It's possible, if Lizzie wrote to Emma on Monday evening and the letter was sent on Tuesday, and received on Wednesday, then Lizzie may not have written Emma again until the Wednesday- which was mailed on Thursday morning. Therefore, since the Bordens were sick Tuesday night and Wednesday, Emma probably did not know about it. It seems Lizzie wrote about a Monday night prowler- and the Thursday letter which was returned may have had the illness info in it. Chances are Emma did not know that Andrew and Abby were sick, unless she had some prior knowledge and in on the upcoming crime.