Where They Died

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:04 pm

I wonder if there is any significance to where the Bordens' bodies were found. Abby was in the guest room -- a reasonable place for her to be at that time of morning, since she (or someone) needed to make up the guest bed. But the guest room was also where Lizzie and Emma entertained their callers. It was their territory.

Andrew was found on the couch where he napped -- but that was in a public area of the house. Did that room or couch have any other significance to the family?

And what happened afterward to the bloodstained furniture?

Lynn

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:25 pm

I think it's interesting that both bodies were found full length, outstretched, right next to a north wall- some kind of macabre symmetry:

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:30 am

i've mused about the east/west layout of the bodies too. Also that (at least by the prevailing theories) -- the killer struck both from the west.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:12 pm

It was the Zodiac killer! Ok, probably not.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:27 pm

Don't be ridiculous, Bob -- It was merely someone from California.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:16 pm

Haulover @ Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:27 am wrote:Don't be ridiculous, Bob -- It was merely someone from California.

I think I can prove conclusively that I wasn't there.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:57 pm

Me too, I have an airtight alibi! I can tell you the number of the trolley I took and the names of the 6 priests that I spoke to whilst I rode.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:54 am

To be more serious about the question, Morse was very identified with both rooms in which the bodies were found slain. He slept in the guest room and he visited with Andrew and Abby in the sitting room on Wednesday when he came, Wednesday night when he returned from Swansea, and Thursday morning before he left again.

The sofa was removed to the undertakers rooms, then taken to court in New Bedford, then brought back, reupolstered (sp?) and returned to the house, I think.

The bodies did not lie on the dining room table, so that's a piece of furniture we need not worry about.
What other furniture do you wish to know about?
I'd like to know which room Emma took for her own after the folks were dead and Lizzie gone to jail!?

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:06 am

Kat @ Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:54 pm wrote: The bodies did not lie on the dining room table, so that's a piece of furniture we need not worry about.
What other furniture do you wish to know about?
I'd like to know which room Emma took for her own after the folks were dead and Lizzie gone to jail!?

The guest bed definitely interests me, because of the height issue. I'd feel much more comfortable if I could walk around it, peer under it,look at it from the stairs.

Emma had the whole place to herself for a year--no more sister, no more Papa, no more Mrs. Borden. (Did Bridget stay on as maid?) I'd love to know if she felt lonely or exhilarated. Imagine Emma bouncing on all the beds in turn -- like Macauley Culkin in Home Alone.

Lynn

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:11 am

There was a "housekeeper" and an occasional man to do hard work, according to the newspapers.
Hannah, I think?
I wonder if Emma ever looked for the "instrument" of death?

As eldest, she might be entitled to the master bedroom.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:38 am

I've always wondered about that; once everyone was gone, where did Emma sleep? Remember way back when Mr. Dube's son posted on the Forum and said that Emma's room at Maplecroft was like the smallest room in the house? Makes me think that she kept her small room at Second Street the whole time. Did Emma feel unworthy of a decent sized bedroom for some reason? Did she have phobias of open spaces? Was she into self-deprivation?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:16 am

Emma had the biggest girl's room up until 1890 or so. That's 18 years.

She may have gone smaller at the Borden house because that room was the only one on the first 2 floors besides Mrs. Borden's dressing room and the clothes closet which was private with only one door. Maybe she began to enjoy the sense of security of only one entrance to her room. No one could walk thru it on their way to somewhere else.

As for her room at Maplecroft, by then she may have liked a sense of self-deprivation, especially if she was into
*atonement.*
A small room at Maplecroft is exceedingly odd.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:36 am

I wander if there was any significantance to haveing abbeys head pointing to the east and andrews to the west. or was it thats just the way they ended up

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:09 am

Kat @ Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:16 am wrote:Emma had the biggest girl's room up until 1890 or so. That's 18 years.

Yes, which would make me ask the same question, after being in that room for 18 years, why the switch? Was it simply the need for more privacy and why after 18 years? Did Emma loath Abby that much that she couldn't stand to sleep in the room right next to her?

For some reason I can't get into the archives to see if I could find Mike's post about Emma's room. Maybe her room at Maplecroft wasn't as small as the one at #92, but, I seem to recall him saying that it was one of the smallest rooms in the house. Atonement sounds about right at that point in her life, especially if the reports of her becoming a regular church-goer are right. Sounds like she may have had a heap of guilt at that point in her life.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:26 am

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/archive.htm

Try this link?

If it's not working at the moment, you can go to the web-site, and go to "site map" and try the archive link there.
When you get in, "refresh" your page.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:29 am

Didn't our other member Pam say she had toured Maplecroft? I thought she said something about a small room.

Maybe Emma wanted to sleep far away from Lizzie? And that small room she chose was the farthest on the "family" floor?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:54 am

Thank you, Kat, I found it! It was so interesting reading those posts again that I got lost in the archives for awhile. Anyway, heres the part that I was referring to:

6. "Re: Tour"
Posted by dubiousmike on Feb-26th-03 at 3:43 AM

Emma's room was the only non servant bedroom wihtout a fireplace.

7. "Re: Tour"
Posted by Susan on Feb-26th-03 at 3:49 AM
In response to Message #6.
So, was Emma's room at Maplecroft as tiny and plain as her bedroom at Second Street? Have you ever found any Lizzie or Emma artifacts in Maplecroft at all?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. "Re: Tour"
Posted by dubiousmike on Feb-26th-03 at 4:09 AM
In response to Message #7.
we found a commode. it was there from when Lizzie was there. it was not likely a servant's. after all, they can get their servant butt up and go to the bathroom, right?

The commode is white ceramic with designs (white on white). Original curtains in the dining room. Original wall paper in the dining room. Lots of other stuff, but I don't count stuff that is attached to the house in a perminant fashion, like sinks, stained glass windows. I suppose the wallpaper is attached, but it was the ONLY room with origianl wallpaper, so it meant something to us.

Emma's room is very small. The smallest non-servant bedroom.

9. "Re: Tour"
Posted by Susan on Feb-26th-03 at 4:20 AM
In response to Message #8.
I was thinking of small things, like say, a hairpin that was maybe stuck between the floorboards. Those kinds of things that you always seem to find in the oddest places.

Sounds like our Emma had a thing for small rooms. I wonder how big her room was at the house she died in? Thanks so much for all your info, Mike!

Theres more stuff from Mike there, link here: http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... FRTour.htm

Yes, I think Pam did say that she toured Maplecroft, but, was she the one who said that she wasn't able to view the upstairs? Pam, are you there?

I was thinking if Emma wanted to get away from Lizzie, wouldn't it have been easier to convert the dress closet into a bedroom for her and convert Emma's old room into a dress closet? Do you think that Emma may have feared Lizzie and wanted a way to lock herself in at night or she just wanted a place to get away from Lizzie, period?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:42 am

I have always wandered why they switched rooms after 18 years. I think some of it was that emma wanted to get away from lizzie and she hated abbey more than lizzie

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:25 am

Emma's room in Maplecroft was situated between Lizzie's winter and summer rooms if I remember correctly I'll have to look it up in Rebello when I get home unless someone else has. It was always my impression that Emma wanted to be near Lizzie until their falling out...or was that one of those fiction non fiction books I read on the subject? Again, I'll ck Rebello when I get home

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:53 am

Susan @ Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:54 am wrote:
I was thinking if Emma wanted to get away from Lizzie, wouldn't it have been easier to convert the dress closet into a bedroom for her and convert Emma's old room into a dress closet? Do you think that Emma may have feared Lizzie and wanted a way to lock herself in at night or she just wanted a place to get away from Lizzie, period?

Well trying to convert the dress closet into a bedroom wouldn't have been very practical I think, because the dress closet was even smaller than Emma and Mrs. Borden's room, I don't see how her bed would even have fit in there. I have always had the idea Emma switched places with Lizzie to try and make Lizzie happy. I also think Emma may have liked being in a smaller room because some people are just more comfortable being in smaller places, it gives them a feeling of safety. There is less space for someone to hide, you can see everything around you more easily at a glance, everything is within easy reach, and some find it cozier in a smaller room. This added to the fact there is only one way in,and one way out. No one can sneak up on you.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:24 pm

No heat, but privacy.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:55 pm

Emma probably wouldn't just switch rooms without some encouragement by Lizzie.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:53 pm

Maybe all Lizzie had to do was just axe her nicely ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:07 am

I think the idea behind the possible use of the dress closet as a bedroom (5 x 8 with a window) was that we were led to understand that later tenants did use it for a baby room.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:05 am

Just a thought, but does anyone think that may be the reason Lizzie wanted the bigger room was because it was closet to Abbey's, so she could get to her easier? If she had intentions of killing her, it would be easier if her room was right next to Abbeys. It's just a thought.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:12 am

I do not think the proximity of Abby's room was a factor.

Tracy...

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:11 am

Allen @ Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:53 am wrote: This added to the fact there is only one way in,and one way out. No one can sneak up on you.

I think you have something there. Plenty of people (me among them) can't stand to sit with their back to a door. In that tense household, I would be far more comfortable in a room with only one exit, regardless of size.

When exactly did the switch happen? What else was going on in the household then?

Lynn

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:46 am

Lizzie had either just got back from Europe or was just leaving for her trip- around 1890.
Not too long before that, say within the year, Bridget came there to work.
The A.J. Borden building was finished the year of 1890.
It's easy to picture it thusly:
That Lizzie went to Europe, returned and wanted the larger room, and realized her father's name was now on a building!
(Not positive about which came first tho...)

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:53 am

you know There is something that keeps crossing my mind.it bothers me........Maybe Emma wanted to change rooms so she could not hear Abbey and Andrew having sex? Um did they have sex? They had seperate rooms .it was a long time ago..was that customary in every household at that time.they were married afterall.

Did Andrew and Sarah share a bedroom? Or seperate?

Even The Ingals on little house on the prarie shared a bed.

If they did have sex was it customary for the man to go to the woman during those times or either way? Maybe being in the room next to that.sounds or whatever was bothering Emma.and she had had enough.

Does anyone know about what was going on during that era? About married men and women?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:29 am

Nona @ Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:53 am wrote:you know There is something that keeps crossing my mind.it bothers me........Maybe Emma wanted to change rooms so she could not hear Abbey and Andrew having sex? Um did they have sex? They had seperate rooms .it was a long time ago..was that customary in every household at that time.they were married afterall.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, are you meaning to say that Abby and Andrew slept in different rooms?

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:40 am

The bordens shared one bedroom and one bed. The room said to be abby's was her clothes room and did not have a bed to my knowledge. You are correct that it was fashionable, and to an extent a show of status to have separate bedrooms and was most likely more insisted upon by the Mistress of the house trying to keep a sense of piety that she had been raised she should show within her home. This was not always the case however. I don't recall the etiquette of who goes where but there is an expectation of "wifely duties".

Even with the times being different I assure you people were still as randy as ever and did have sex. Whether or not the bordens, and how often they copulated is unknown and, well, none of our business lol

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:08 pm

ahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaa I see I was confused of all this talk of andrews room and abbeys room. Thinking they slept in two seperate beds.

Thank you that cleared it up:)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:08 pm

Kat @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:46 pm wrote:Lizzie had either just got back from Europe or was just leaving for her trip- around 1890.
Not too long before that, say within the year, Bridget came there to work.
The A.J. Borden building was finished the year of 1890.
It's easy to picture it thusly:
That Lizzie went to Europe, returned and wanted the larger room, and realized her father's name was now on a building!
(Not positive about which came first tho...)

Thats an interesting thought, that Lizzie's trip to Europe may have been the cause of the room switch. After all that grandeur, could Lizzie have been mopey around the house, complaining to Emma about how wonderful things were there and how they were not so at home? And Emma as "little mother" to "baby Lizzie" would have been self-sacrificing and gave up her big bedroom to keep Lizzie happy?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:23 am

Well, personally, I can't picture Lizzie returning to that little bedroom after Europe...

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:24 am

Weren't they sick or something becuase of some sort of food poisoning? Thought that was the reasoning for them lying down early in the day like they did.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:55 pm

Jack the Ripper said once, "I told you the street which I live on."
Sometimes you can't see the forest for the too many trees.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:49 pm

The elder bordens and Bridget showed sympyoms of poisioning. The Bordens were checked for known poisions (supposedly arsenic would have been checked) and found negative. They showed symptoms of arsenic poisioning.
The symptoms are also the same for fecal poisioning however, which can't be checked, even today.
Fecal can be accidental or intentional. If it's accidental it passes away soonly much like the flu.
If it's intentional it results in death within five days.
There was a case in Texas where a man (a Doctor) was supposedly fecal poisioning his wife. He supposedly was growing fecal in those little bioligist trays and dumping her in some kind of fatty muffins. Fecal has no taste or odor when grown in Petrie(sp?word?) jars(Basins?)
She lived on for months through her supposed poisioning. If he really had been trying to kill her she would have been long gone before it was even suspected.
I hate to let out secrets to would be killers, but fecal poisioning is by far the best way to kill someone.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:07 pm

The poision Lizzie was suspected of buying (and may well have tried to) would kill someone instantly. Just a few drops in anyone's coffee or tea would likely kill the poisionee and the poisioner and probably the whole room. Not much of a thing you could hide. It shows to me that perhaps she talked to someone with more knowledge than her afterwards.
So either she did talk with someone more knowledgable than her or she didn't.
What happened?
The entire focus was changed and the killerings happened.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:02 pm

If you are referring to E. coli poisoning, that is happening here in Florida to kids right now.
It has stages of poisoning. These cases weren't found until 2 and 3 weeks after the initial onslaught. It morphs in the body, becoming toxic in the system in new ways.
It can be treated now and is being treated now.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:07 pm

i'd rather stick to facts.
it doesn't matter where someone wanted to sleep, but it does matter where they slept.
how about going on for two hundred pages about maybe uncle john wanted to sleep in the barn with lizzie and that was the reason for the argument the night before the murders.
lizzie slept in her room for a long time before anyone was killed.
if that would have had anything to do with her demeaner she would have shown more signs earlier, wearing different clothes, going out more, joining new clubs, etc., which she didn't.
if the room had anything to do with it, the room would have been a proximity aftersight which really had no meaning since (in this scenario) she had gotten rid of emma.
it would be nice to know if lizzie was truly evil or not i guess, as bonnie parker was, but i don't think there's any evidence that lizzie ever was.
nor is there evidence that uncle john was, or dr. bowen was, or patricia ramsey was, or mata hari - she was just executed - a bad day.
but there is a lot of evidence that bonnie parker was terribly evil, so maybe the writer should regroup.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:29 pm

yes i was talking about e. coli.
the points i was making were:
that the doctor could have killed his wife much more quickly by giving her more e. coli if he were trying to kill her (to his defense.) this is an actual case.
and that intentional e. coli poisioning happens within 5 days. unintentional e.coli (usually injesting sewer water) takes a few weeks.
e. coli poisioning is unlikely for the average person unless they are dealing with someone on alcohol or drugs because of the smell.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:43 pm

yes, it can be detected, kat, but it can come from such a variety of sources that detection is usually inconclusive.