Emma's Beau.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:34 pm

Correct and I appreciate your input. Lizzie, however was only charged with murder, and not secondly charged with conspiracy to commit murder, further she was charged only once triply with the murder of her Father, the murder of her Stepmother, and the joint murders of her Father and Stepmother. She pleaded innocent to only that large and until then and until now unheard of charge. If there was some kind of a conspiracy the prosecution still may have found a way to get her, but as the crime stood, she may have felt herself innocent by her definition of law, and perhaps she was.
The charge against her was akin to O.J. Simpson's being charged with the killing of his ex-wife, and of Ron Goldman, and of killing them jointly. I asked F. Lee Bailey (since we're name dropping) once on the telephone if Simpson could now be charged with the joint murders of his ex wife and Ron Goldman and he said no.
I have never seen the significance of the double charge in Massachusetts.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:18 pm

Technically, Lizzie was indicted by the grand jury on the big trip, as you might say- or the Trifecta?

I'd smile, but I don't think it's appropriate...

Yea, Allen I guess the Borden murders don't fit spree, mass or serial.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:21 pm

Would a girl change the method in the middle of killing (between kills) with a hatchet once she found out just how horribly gawd-awful messy and noisy it was?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:02 am

I actually don't think she would've switched weapons. For a first time murderer, this was a weapon that you could use to MAKE SURE they were dead. Besides, what other weapons of chance would there have been available in the house? Sure she could've used a knife, but that is more close up, and to put it bluntly doesn't do as much visible damage. A blunt instrument could've been used to hit them over the head, but how would she know if the blows had been fatal? There are also bigger risks of a struggle with these weapons. I don't see her wanting to strangle or smother them. Strangling is much too up close and personal, and with smothering again how do you know how long to is takes to cause death? I see Lizzie wanting to see the damage. Once she had taken that step, and was past the point of no return, I think she wanted to be able to make sure. I don't think she wanted to botch anything. I think that is why the overkill also. How do you know when enough is enough to cause death?(I'm trying to think of this from her point of view. Trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who wants to intentionally cause death.) I think Lizzie wanted a weapon she could use to MAKE SURE they were dead. I think thats why the attempt at buying prussic acid. Look how lethal it is. I don't think this is a poison you would use to poison someone slowly. After being thwarted from buying poison, the axe was a reasonable choice. It's messy, and mussy, but it's SURE.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:44 am

A woman would be far more apt to use poision or a gun. By the way, I've been ignored in far nicer places than this.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:58 am

You're not being ignored john.

I see what you mean, Allen. To be sure.
So if she did it, she liked it? The overkill. She would no get that kind of satisfaction from poison, tho.
I have read that a woman will attack the face more likely than a man.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:02 am

I didn't say I was being ignored - I said I've been ignored in far nicer places than this!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:25 am

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:29 am

I wasn't ever really sure about Lizzie trying to buy poison before now but I was re-reading her inquest testimony last night by battery-powered lantern (My power was out) and decided she made a big goof and it's lucky her attorney got the Bence stuff kicked out.

Do you suppose reading Lizzie should be done by flashlite? I mean with the power off is it closer to sounding more natural to the times?

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:43 am

You were actually reading that last night? Isn't that Lizzie 101?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:48 am

Kat @ Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:29 am wrote:
Do you suppose reading Lizzie should be done by flashlite? I mean with the power off is it closer to sounding more natural to the times?

I've read Lizzie by candlelight. I love burning candles and I always have some burning. I like the fragrance, and I love the way they look in a dark room at night. I buy emergency candles and oil lamps instead of batteries or flashlights. My husband and my children think I'm nuts

. I would agree that it does add something to reading about Lizzie when you read by candlelight, and I imagine that reading by flashlight would be pretty much the same. I would recommend it

.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:48 am

oops..double posted sorry...I hit the button twice.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:39 am

Love your buttons Allen.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 am

Allen - seen how cute Beckygoddess is lookin lately? Wow!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:37 am

I think members here tend to re-read the source documents occasionally to pick up more nuance. I usually find something more- the more I read them.

That's cool that you read by candle.
We here in Florida are encouraged not to use candles because of high fire hazzard- in tropical storms, and hurricanes- so we get out of the habit.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:41 pm

That's the first line of the poem by W.H. Auden that I remembered, and told you about. "Oh master of nuance and scruple,"
Ironic?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:51 am

john @ Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:32 pm wrote:Actions speak louder than words. If Lizzie killed her Father, or knew that he was to be killed by someone she was involved with, she would never have wakened Bridget up so quickly. She would have either given herself more time to make sure she was completely cleaned up, simply left to go shopping if she felt she was ok physically looking and let Bridget discover the body, or stayed in the barn and let Bridget discover the body giving the killer maximum time to escape.
The only logical answer to this enigma is that Lizzie knew her stepmother was to be killed but didn't know her father would be killed.

I was wondering about this last night. It sort of came to me that this is possible. That Abby was to die, according to Emma and Lizzie. But not Andrew. In fact, I think Abby's death was the reason Morse came. To be of some support- not necessarily to kill her. But I don't think Morse knew Andrew would die. I'm not sure yet who also didn't know Andrew was to die, including the killer. There might be room for 2 killers. But they would be of the household and the second murder was unplanned until very near the time...

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:20 am

Morse either just dropped by or had a reason for being their, either his own reason, or someone wanted him there. Lets say he just dropped in. That he happened to just drop in on the eve of the one of the most famous crimes in history is pretty unlikely since he hadn't been there at least in months.
So lets give happinstance a 10% chance.
Now that he was supposed to be there for some reason is certainly more likely than dropping in. The reason could be his own or someone elses. Why would he be important? Why would he set up what every writer has claimed to be alibi?
Something is suspicious. So it leads us to believe either Morse knew something was going to happen, or he just suspected. So those of you who know to draw a flow chart draw it down and add the variables I havn't presented, and the conclusion is that Morse felt that he would be killed that morning too so he left. Just as an example of things, Morse arrives, but nothing has been bought special for him to eat, so they probably didn't know he was coming.
So Morse is there, chats with Andrew that evening, but I can't believe he knew that Abby would be killed the next morning. It would invite in a snitch.
So what did Morse think would happen that morning, and why would he have to be gone?
The only answer, however unlikely, is that Morse killed Abby and Andrew.
Why couldn't he have?
It works, and there is probably substance to his having an affair with Lizzie.
So what happened to the hatchet? Morse didn't arrive until about 45 minutes after Andrew was found? Why wouldn't Morse just scoot?
Because he was obscessed with Lizzie - why would he come back for lunch anyway with bad food? Why else would Lizzie seek him back by sending Dr. Bowen for him?
The mystery is solved - Morse - now we just have to fill in a few things.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:32 am

I'm not discounting so far what you've said, other than where did Lizzie send for Morse? I can shew a map as to how far Webosett Street is from Second Street. Bowen left the Borden house and went to send a telegram marked 11:32. I don't think there was time to go fetch Morse at the Emery's. If the Emery's had a phone and we might think Bowen had a phone, then that would work.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:53 am

Lizzie sent for Morse by police testimony from Morse' neice, and newspaper articles referring to same.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:43 am

john @ Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:20 am wrote:Morse either just dropped by or had a reason for being their, either his own reason, or someone wanted him there. Lets say he just dropped in. That he happened to just drop in on the eve of the one of the most famous crimes in history is pretty unlikely since he hadn't been there at least in months.

According to John Morse he did have a reason for being there, and the Borden's did expect him, they just didn't know for sure when he was coming. He has been to visit in June, and again in July of that year, and Mr. Borden had asked Morse if he might know anyone he could hire to work on his farm. Morse said he did know someone, and that he would send that man over to see Mr. Borden. This was done by correspondance through the mail. Morse had the letter from Andrew dated July 25, 1892 which stated he would rather wait until he could see Morse about the matter. and the letter was shown to to Mr. Knowlton at the inquest.

Inquest testimony of John Morse page 98-99:

Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No, sir.

Q.You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes, sir.

Q.Was that about ten days before you came?
A.Yes, sir.

Q.So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes, sir.

So what did Morse think would happen that morning, and why would he have to be gone?

As for why did he have to be out. Well, I know that whenever I go to visit family members that live somewhere that I do not visit very often, I will "make the rounds". Which means I will visit all of the relatives which live in this particular place. Well the ones I get along with anyway. So I don't think Morse had to be gone, in my opinion he was just out visiting his other relatives during his stay. And really, since Andrew was gone that morning, and Emma was not there to start with, that leaves Morse in the house with just Abby and Lizzie. And Lizzie wasn't talking to him. I think I would leave and come back when Andrew was home as well.

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:58 am

As for why did he have to be out. Well, I know that whenever I go to visit family members that live somewhere that I do not visit very often, I will "make the rounds". Which means I will visit all of the relatives which live in this particular place. Well the ones I get along with anyway. So I don't think Morse had to be gone, in my opinion he was just out visiting his other relatives during his stay.

I agree. I don't really have a problem with Morse showing up at the house -- or going out in the morning.

But I've always been struck by the fact that John says it's Andrew's idea that Morse visit his niece and nephew. He says Andrew knew they were visiting the Emery's and implies he had to tell John where the Emerys lived.
"Q. Did you say where you was going?
A. Yes Sir. He was telling the night before, up at Mr. Emery's I had a nephew and niece from the West, and he told me where they lived, and wanted me to go and see them.
Q. Did he tell you where they lived?
A: Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street." (Morse, Inquest Testimony)

How did Andrew knew the relatives were in town on a visit when John didn't. Had Andrew seen them earlier? Had they visited the Bordens? What was Andrew's relationship with the Emerys?

I can't remember -- was there a familial relationship between Morse and the Emerys. Hoffman (p. 123) says Daniel Emery was John's cousin -- is this right?

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:42 pm

It doesn't seem particularly unusual that neither Lizzie or Emma married, but it does seem unusual that neither appeared to have any suitors - for all of their lives. Especially as they grew older, you'd think older men would see a nice gain there because of the family fortune, but I've only seen one for Lizzie, and he was "iffy." How about a new romance site, Kat - did either of the girls ever have a boyfriend? Also did Abby ever have one before Andrew came along? Many men would do a little dance and make a little love for a couple million dollars, yet there is almost nobody in their social stories (not money for Abby, of course).
As to the waking up of Bridget, it appears to have only one answer. That Lizzie was unaware of her Father's being attacked, and turns to Bridget. But instead of sending Bridget for the police, she sends her for a doctor, basicly on an errand. And Lizzie is not frantic when Bridget is gone, she just kinda mopes.
As a major downgrade of my belief of what happened, if Lizzie was or knew who the assailant of her Father was she never would have awakened Bridget. The only reason to awaken Bridget would be to control the situation, as Kat said, but it seems she wouldn't even have had to do that so quickly, especially if she (Lizzie) was involved.
Is the answer that she's afraid that Uncle Morse will come back and find the body? Even if she tried to shut him out of the house, his banging on the door would awaken Bridget and she's lose control.
So there you have it, and if Uncle Morse did it, why would he come back?, in the same suit, etc.
We're whittling down to the answer here, and it's not liked by the relatives of people who were involved in 1892 in Fall River.
Part of the true answer has been presented, and is regarded as "no-evidence fiction" by the FRHS, while they endorse and sell other solutions as fact which have absolutely no basis. For example, the book which says Bridget did it is not marked as "fiction."
There is more to the story and Kat will figure it out someday.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:45 pm

john @ Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:42 pm wrote: So there you have it, and if Uncle Morse did it, why would he come back?, in the same suit, etc.

This point actually is very valid. Everyone likes to make light of the fact that Uncle John showed up with only the clothes on his back, and not even a toothbrush. How could he commit murder, and then return wearing the same clothes and no one be the wiser? He didn't have any clothes to change into. Lizzie had many dresses available at her disposal for changing into. Morse had nothing. He couldn't even brush his teeth afterward if he wanted to.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:40 pm

Well that is a good point but he could have borrowed some from his other relatives to use for the murders and changed into his afterwards

and of course there is the chance that he did not do it.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:50 pm

Liz Crouthers @ Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:40 pm wrote: Well that is a good point but he could have borrowed some from his other relatives to use for the murders and changed into his afterwards

and of course there is the chance that he did not do it.

In my opinion, Morse was not the type to borrow clothes from anyone. And I think if he would have it would've raised some suspicions. It at least would have been mentioned to the police. Everybody was under a microscope during the investigation, and Morse was the lead suspect for awhile. It think it would have been mentioned.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:11 pm

I agree. I don't really have a problem with Morse showing up at the house -- or going out in the morning.

But I've always been struck by the fact that John says it's Andrew's idea that Morse visit his niece and nephew. He says Andrew knew they were visiting the Emery's and implies he had to tell John where the Emerys lived.
"Q. Did you say where you was going?
A. Yes Sir. He was telling the night before, up at Mr. Emery's I had a nephew and niece from the West, and he told me where they lived, and wanted me to go and see them.
Q. Did he tell you where they lived?
A: Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street." (Morse, Inquest Testimony)

How did Andrew knew the relatives were in town on a visit when John didn't. Had Andrew seen them earlier? Had they visited the Bordens? What was Andrew's relationship with the Emerys?

I can't remember -- was there a familial relationship between Morse and the Emerys. Hoffman (p. 123) says Daniel Emery was John's cousin -- is this right?

Morse's niece would be Andrew's niece as well, wouldn't she?
Sarah Morse's brothers daughter.
If my uncle was that rich, I might let him know I was in town visiting.
It's a good question Diana- that is not ever mentioned.
Emery has been called cousin to Morse in the papers, but didn't we try to link them thru Vinnicum, or was it thru that lady who died?

Oh here it is:
Inquest
Morse
96
A. I did not stay but a short time. I was here over night, but I went down to an Aunt’s on the Stafford Road at that time.
Q. What is her name?
A. Catherine Boudray.
Q. Before that, can you recall the last time you were there?
A. It was somewhere the last of June. I know Phebe Curry was sick at that time, she died a little afterwards, I think about the last of June.

--These sound like relatives of his.
--Morse didn't get anything done on his visit- even tho he said he had these commitments. He saw his niece and got some eggs. He may have had a letter to expect him but when he did come he was not ready to do any business. He also claimed that he could just have easily taken the train back home Wednesday evening without staying over. So Wednesday he was out a lot and blew off the train, or returning to New Bedford.
Oh I forgot. He did mail a letter/get eggs/see his niece. (He didn't even see his nephew!

)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:29 pm

Kat @ Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:11 pm wrote:
--These sound like relatives of his.
--Morse didn't get anything done on his visit- even tho he said he had these commitments. He saw his niece and got some eggs. He may have had a letter to expect him but when he did come he was not ready to do any business. He also claimed that he could just have easily taken the train back home Wednesday evening without staying over. So Wednesday he was out a lot and blew off the train, or returning to New Bedford.
Oh I forgot. He did mail a letter/get eggs/see his niece. (He didn't even see his nephew! )

We really do not know that business was not discussed between Morse and Andrew. This could have been discussed as they all were in the sitting room talking on Wednesday night. And Morse seems like the kind who would not just come to call for a few hours and return home. He was always boarding, or staying, with someone. Maybe he enjoyed the extra company, I don't know. It seems like this was sort of a custom then also. When visiting someone out of town, you usually planned to spend the night, if not longer.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:27 pm

Allen @ Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:45 pm wrote:This point actually is very valid. Everyone likes to make light of the fact that Uncle John showed up with only the clothes on his back, and not even a toothbrush. How could he commit murder, and then return wearing the same clothes and no one be the wiser? He didn't have any clothes to change into. Lizzie had many dresses available at her disposal for changing into. Morse had nothing. He couldn't even brush his teeth afterward if he wanted to.

Personally, I don't think Morse committed the murders, but, possibly may have had a hand in them. Anyway, this post got me thinking, Bridget said that there were possibly old clothes of Andrew's in the sitting room closet. Were Morse and Andrew about the same size? If Morse were the one to do it, could he have borrowed one of Andrew's old suits from the sitting room closet and change back when done. I'm just thinking a bit out of the box here and trying to leave no stone unturned.

From the Preliminary, Volume 1, Bridget's testimony, page 61:

Q. Were there not closets connected with any of the rooms down stairs?
A. There was one in the sitting room, I think.
Q. What was kept there?
A. I do not know what they kept; a basket with clothes in it.
Q. Mrs. Borden had her bonnet and shawl down stairs?
A. Yes Sir, she kept them in the closet in the sitting room; sometimes her common shawl was there.
Q. If she wanted to go out, she could go to the closet in the sitting room and get her bonnet and shawl, and go out without going up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else was kept there?
A. Some clothes belonging to Mr. Borden, I guess.
Q. This jacket he put on in the morning, was not a dressing gown, but a common cardigan jacket?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 62

Q. Where was that kept?
A. In the sitting room, as you go into the sitting room from the kitchen; there was a nail there.
Q. By the stove?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the sitting room closet, beside the bonnet and shawl, and the outside gear Mrs. Borden kept there, what clothing did Mr. Borden have there?
A. I used to see coats there sometimes, old coats.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:11 pm

Morse is interesting, but if he would have physically done it he would never have come back for lunch. Also the timing - say he kills Abby at about 9:00 which is really plausible. Then what does he do?
His neice said he did visit her. So he hops trains for half an hour, visits his neice, rushes back on trains to the Bordens and kills Andrew, then drifts around and comes back for lunch.
His neice said that Dr. Bowen showed up at her house shortly after Morse had left, so now is Dr. Bowen involved at say 10:30? Dr. Bowen was also seen driving in his carridge with an unidentified person, so did Dr. Bowen drive Morse back to kill Andrew?
Then Mrs. Bowen may have been somehow involved because Dr. Bowen showed up shortly after Mrs. Bowen was notified.
So now we have involved, Lizzie?, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Bowen?, Morse, none of whom could have physically killed the elder Bordens, as well as the killer. So by this logic 4 out of five people who knew who committed the crime never talked in spite of rewards and in later years would have amounted to major interest.
Personally, I think the most suspicious person in this case is Dr. Bowen, although I don't think he had anything to do with the murders.
Morse went about his way probably as I might, or any single man would.
In part I rely on newspaper testimony when there is no other, which could be inaccurate, but if we can't be inaccurate with ourselves, who can we be inaccurate with?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:29 am

Well, Morse didn't get any cattle - he had put that off- and he didn't get a man for the farm. No tangible business done, I guess I mean.
But collecting those eggs meant the man from the farm didn't come to town at 11 a.m. Thursday which the man from the farm thought suspicious.
Morse could have killed Abby if he covered up like any killer, but his alibi is too good for Andrew's murder. One of the reasons to think maybe Abby was to die but not Andrew.
His reaction was something like *My God! How did this happen?*

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:30 am

Here's the newspaper stuff from August 5:

Evening Standard
Friday, August 5, 1892 Page 2

HAVE A CLEW!

.............
Pg 7
"John W. Morse's Stories"

He said that about 20 minutes after 9 o'clock in the morning he left Mr. Borden's house and walked to the City Hall, where he took a car for Weybosset street. He arrived at No. 4 Weybosset street at 9:30 and called on a niece and nephew, who were visiting a family there named Emery. "The first I knew of this affair," said Mr. Morse yesterday noon just after 12 o'clock, "I received a telephone message and went down town. I arrived at Mr. Borden's house at 11:40 and walked in at the gate. I picked up a couple of pears, and glancing in at the door, saw the uniforms of policemen. Bridget met me and said 'Do you know what has happened? The folks are killed.' I went in and saw Mr. Borden's body lying on the lounge; then I went up stairs and saw Mrs. Borden's corpse."
Morse is a tall man, who looks like a farmer. He has a closely cropped beard and moustache, and his eyes are bloodshot, or have prominent veins in them. He has been on intimate terms with Mr. Borden's daughters of late, and has been driving with them frequently.

Mrs. Emery Talks

Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her last evening. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
“Was Morse the name we heard?” asked the officer of a companion.
“Yes,” retorted Mrs. Emery, quickly, “Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o’clock this morning.”
“Then you noticed the time?” observed the officer.
“Oh, yes,” was the reply. “I noticed the time.”
“How did you fix it?” was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician. “Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left.”
“Did they meet?” queried the officer.
“No, they did not,” said Mrs. Emery.
At this point, the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery’s statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse’s departure.
Mr. Morse states that he was in the Borden yard at 11:40, and it is a quick trip from Weybosset street to Second street in 10 minutes. He needed the extra 10 minutes which the women gave him. It is necessary to be accurate.
Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do, at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come East to spend his money. She was not positive on this point, however. Morse’s niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and replied that she had. She had met him when she was five years old, and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the Borden farm, Swanzey.
Mr. Morse’s memory in regard to his niece is somewhat defective. He had said that he went to call on her for the first time yesterday. He was interviewed again.
“I thought that you told me, Mr. Morse,” said the interviewer, “that you never saw your niece before to-day?”
“I never did,” replied Mr. Morse.
“She says,” was the rejoinder, “that you met her in Warren and drove her to Swanzey.”
“Ah, that is so. I did,” said Mr. Morse. “I saw her for just a moment or so.”
“And I thought you told me,” resumed the interviewer, “that you first learned of this affair by a telephone message when you were in another part of the city?”
“You are mistaken,” said Mr. Morse, “I said no such thing.”
“But you did,” persisted his questioner, “and I will take my oath on it.”
“You are mistaken,” Morse replied once more.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:26 am

So you have a conundrum, Kat.
And what are you going to decide it to be?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:00 am

Well, it's not just me, is it?

Dr. Bowen probably could not have been at the Emerys visiting the sick and sending a telegram at 11:32.
Note how the reporter claims it's necessary to be accurate?

Trial
Morse
Page 138 / i159

Q. Where is Weybosset Street with respect to the Borden house?
A. It is just off Pleasant Street, and probably a mile or such a matter from Pleasant Street east.

Q. And that does not give us the distance from the Borden house. Will you give us the distance from the Borden house or about the distance?
A. Well, probably a mile and a quarter.

Q. Did you walk there or drive there?
A. I walked there.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:57 am

Interesting, from the way Morse states about the phone call, I can see how the mistake was made about him hearing about the "affair" and coming back to #92. But, he says he got a phone call and went downtown. Where did he receive this alleged phone call and when? Wasn't the Emery's place considered downtown or am I mixed up? Was downtown North or South of the Borden home?

"The first I knew of this affair, I received a telephone message and went down town."

I was thinking, I don't know what Morse would gain by leaving earlier than the 11:20 time, but, what if Morse switched the clock forward at the Emery's? To be at the Borden's to help oversee Andrew's murder? Get the killer out of the house? Sorry, I'm all questions today.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:06 am

Susan @ Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:57 am wrote:
I was thinking, I don't know what Morse would gain by leaving earlier than the 11:20 time, but, what if Morse switched the clock forward at the Emery's? To be at the Borden's to help oversee Andrew's murder? Get the killer out of the house? Sorry, I'm all questions today.

If he switched it forward, how far ahead would he have switched it? And wouldn't he have had to switch it back if it was a considerable switch? Even thought there seemed to be a little inconsistency in the synchronization on the various time pieces used by the witnesses to fix the time, a clock that was off by any considerably noticeable amount of time would in fact be noticed at some point? When they started showing up early for appointments and such...?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:37 pm

I"m not sure how far forward Morse would need to change the time, but, if the Emery's thought it was 11:20 and it was earlier, couldn't he have been back at the Borden's in time to oversee something with Andrew's murder? In a time era where clocks had to be wound by hand, would a clock that was off be considered a big deal? Yes, it would be noticed eventually, but, would it be noticed the day that Morse left? So, when interviewed, the time Morse left would be set in their minds.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:50 pm

I'm loving this exchange. It's creative and amusing, and interesting.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:36 pm

Susan @ Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:37 pm wrote:I"m not sure how far forward Morse would need to change the time, but, if the Emery's thought it was 11:20 and it was earlier, couldn't he have been back at the Borden's in time to oversee something with Andrew's murder? In a time era where clocks had to be wound by hand, would a clock that was off be considered a big deal? Yes, it would be noticed eventually, but, would it be noticed the day that Morse left? So, when interviewed, the time Morse left would be set in their minds.

Well, I have a clock hanging above the mantle on my fireplace that has to be wound with a key. You wind one side up to keep the clock ticking, and wind the other side up to keep the chimes working. ( I stopped winding the side for the chimes, they drive me crazy) The time is still pretty consistant as long as you remember to wind it, and it doesn't really need wound as often as I would have thought a clock would. I'm not sure if this is any indication of how everyone would have attended to their clocks. It usually doesn't stop keeping the proper time unless it has completely wound down and stopped. I was thinking about John changing into Andrew's clothes which were kept in the sitting room closet. Where would they have gone after the murders? And where would he have changed his clothes since all of the doors were locked, and Abby was upstairs in the guestroom?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:05 am

Here is some more from The Evening Standard about Morse. A later version of his story. Oh, it has clocks in it. I like the part about Mrs. Emery going shopping. I recall Morse said he didn't go there earlier because the lady would probably have some morning work to do. This sounds like he overstayed and she had to get to the shop to get the dinner the minute he left.

"Saturday, August 6, 1892 Page 2

FALL RIVER’S TRAGEDY."

....
"Morse May Prove an Alibi.

The Fall River News says:
One of the most cruel incidents in connection with the murder has been the groundless speculation that has been cast upon Mr. John V. Morse, of Iowa, who was the guest of Mr. Borden for a few hours preceding the horrible affair, and who is still stopping at the house, under the constant surveillance of the police. Mr. Morse tells a straightforward story, and his time is easily accounted for. His story, which completely relieves Mr. Morse from any connection with the affair, could have been verified by a half hour’s work on the part of any of the reporters who have spread his name broadcast over the land as the possible assassin.

Mr. Morse is a brother of the first wife of Mr. Borden and always between the two men have existed the kindest feelings of friendship and regard. Mr. Morse states that he came to Fall River from New Bedford last Wednesday on the 12:35 afternoon train. He arrived at the Borden residence about 1:30 and found Mr. Borden, his wife and daughter at home---all of them sick. He stayed until between 3 and 4 o'clock, when he went to Kirby's stable, hired a carriage and drove to Luther’s Corner on business. He returned about 8:30 to 9 o'clock and sat chatting with Mr. and Mrs. Borden for some time. The former retired shortly after 9 and he and Mr. Borden a little after 10. Thursday they breakfasted about 7 o'clock, and about a quarter before 9 he walked down town to the post office, wrote a postal card and mailed it, and from there walked via Bedford, Third and Pleasant streets to No. 4 Weybosset street to Mr. James[sic] Emery's, where Mr. Borden had informed him the night before that some relatives were visiting. These were a son and daughter, about 16 and 19 years of age, children of a brother of Mr. Morse's, residing in Minnesota, whom he had not seen for a number of years. He found that the younger relative was out, but the elder was in, though indisposed, and he spent the forenoon with her and Mrs. Emery until towards noon. They invited him to stay to dinner, but he excused himself, that he had a previous engagement, Mr. Borden's last words to him being, "John, come to dinner with us."

Returning, he took a street car on which six priests were passengers, three of whom sat on the seat with him. He left the car at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and walked direct to Mr. Borden's residence. He did not enter the house, but went to the garden in the rear for a pear or two, and when he came back was met by the girl Bridget and a man Sawyer, who asked: "Did you know Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been murdered?" This must have been very near 12 o'clock.

It is certain that the murder was committed between 10 and 11 o'clock, and at that time, according to the testimony of Mr. Morse and the ladies whom he visited, Mr. Morse was at No. 4 Weybosset street, more than a mile away. Mrs. Emery states that Mr. Morse came to her house "not long after breakfast," and that he stayed there until about 20 minutes after 11. She invited him to dinner, but he declined, saying he had an engagement. She fixes the time by saying that she had some trouble with a lock of the door when he went out. That immediately after he had gone she went for her hat to go to the store to make a purchase for dinner. It was half past 11. At the store she again looked at the clock there, wondering how much time she still had left to get dinner. The store clock said 11:40.

Mr. Morse's niece confirms the story, and Mrs. Horace G. Kingsley, who resides on the first floor apartment, says that she saw Mr. Morse, come to the house early in the forenoon, and that she heard the trouble he had at the door and saw him as he was going away. She was getting her dinner at the time and it was after 11 o'clock, though she did not notice the exact hour.

The conductor of the car yesterday was a "spare," named Whittaker, and the News has been unable to find him to-day, as he would probably remember the circumstance of the six priests and Mr. Morse's riding with him. Mr. Morse's story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o'clock.

Mr. Morse is a gentleman 59 years of age and of comfortable fortune. He is the uncle of the Misses Borden, his deceased sister being their mother. "I have never borrowed a dollar of Andrew Borden in my life," he said this morning, and no financial differences ever existed between us. Abraham Borden's will left me no property, and my father's will left none to Andrew Borden, the murdered man. A letter from a cashier in an Iowa bank of recent date, shows a handsome balance to Mr. Morse's credit. Mr. Morse wears a suit of light grey clothes, all he has with him since he has been in the city. There is not a spot apparent on them. "Look at me," he said, "as a man of common sense, and say if I could have committed such a horrible butchery and present the appearance I do." This last remark shows keenly the unhappy man feels the injustice that hasty suspicion has done him."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:07 am

If Morse owed Andrew money who would know? With Andrew dead, he wouldn't have to pay him if there was no contract or IOU...

weber · Post by **weber** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:29 am

Something tells me that Andrew kept pretty meticulous books. I suspect that all debts owed to him would be entered.

I think he may have known that "something" was going to happen to Mrs. B. but I don't think he knew about Mr. B's murder before hand. I think he held the girls in high esteem and was concerned about their futures. After all, Andrew was an elderly man and the Mrs. would inherit when he died. Due to the way that the girls had treated her, they were probably concerned about her attitude towards them once she had control of the money. I can't remember if we've discussed what share of the pot she would inherit when he died. Would it be 1/3 or 1/2 with the girls sharing the other half?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:15 pm

I really think that Morse and quite a few people knew of the tension in the house, the family dysfunction and Lizzie's labile personality. I don't think Lizzie got the reputation of being odd for nothing. In fact, I think it was a lot more than oddity- I think people knew she was fragile emotionally, and they may have been concerned that she could do something extreme. That may have been why everyone was acting weirdly- they may have been trying to protect the family reputation or they may have felt guilty because they didn't do more to stop what they guessed could happen if she lost it. I wonder if Andrew called on Morse to visit to get his opinion on what they should do with her because they were afraid of her. Andrew said he was worried about something happening in the household- maybe it was that he was scared for their very safety.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:29 pm

Also, maybe Lizzie knew why her uncle was there and, although she liked him before,she felt betrayed because he was talking to her parents about her, and that's why she gave him the cold shoulder on this latest visit.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:51 pm

Angel @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:15 pm wrote:I really think that Morse and quite a few people knew of the tension in the house, the family dysfunction and Lizzie's labile personality. I don't think Lizzie got the reputation of being odd for nothing.In fact, I think it was a lot more than oddity- I think people knew she was fragile emotionally, and they may have been concerned that she could do something extreme. That may have been why everyone was acting weirdly- they may have been trying to protect the family reputation or they may have felt guilty because they didn't do more to stop what they guessed could happen if she lost it. I wonder if Andrew called on Morse to visit to get his opinion on what they should do with her because they were afraid of her. Andrew said he was worried about something happening in the household- maybe it was that he was scared for their very safety.

I really agree with that. I believe that the people of Fall River knew the way Lizzie was. After all, she had lived in Fall River for all 32 years of her life. That's 32 years worth of possible observation time on the part of the citizens. She shopped there, went to school and attended church there, belonged to charitable organizations, etc. I think if there was any kind of family tension or dysfunction, it definitely would have been known by at least a certain number of the people living in Fall River. We all know how gossip travels. I think people believed Lizzie was capable of being very nasty and petty when she didn't get her way. I think they knew she had a temper, and that she didn't get along with her parents, especially Abby. But I still think everyone was shocked that those parents turned up DEAD. I don't think anyone was prepared for that. I also think that many who knew Lizzie, even knew how nasty and belligerent she could get, did not want to believe she was capable of murder. Morse definitely knew the way Lizzie was. I can see Andrew wanting to get advice from Morse about what to do about her. If Andrew trusted Morse for advice on business, why not personal matters as well? I don't think Andrew would talk to anyone else but Morse as a friend in this matter. I don't think he would trust anyone else. And even Andrew, as closed mouthed as he seemed to be, would probably want to be able to talk to someone for advice.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:25 am

Harry or someone can double-check me, but I think this about where Weybossett Street is from Second Street on the map of 1877. I also recall that Second went thru to Pleasant.
This is to show where Morse went, but also to show where Dr. Bowen had to go when he either went to send the telegram and on that trip he went to *get Morse for Lizzie*, or where he went possibly before he went to the Bordens the first time?
This is only because of what Mrs. Emery said in the papers, which I posted. I don't know where the confusion comes in- meaning, I can't see how Mrs. Emery could be right that Bowen was there as Morse was leaving?

According to Morse it was a mile and a quarter.

Please click on pic to make it bigger

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:54 pm

Thanks, Kat. Thats where my original idea that maybe Morse left earlier came from, that Dr. Bowen would have needed to arrive there before he was summoned to the Borden house. But, if it was noted that the streetcar that Morse took went along at 11:22, well, perhaps the Emerys were more accurate with their time. But, that still leaves the question of Dr. Bowen's whereabouts, he couldn't be at the Emery's house and at the Borden's at the same time.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:15 am

Kat @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:25 am wrote:Harry or someone can double-check me, but I think this about where Weybossett Street is from Second Street on the map of 1877. I also recall that Second went thru to Pleasant.
......
According to Morse it was a mile and a quarter.

That's very close Kat. I have put a red cross on the Post Office which was on Bedford. He walked down Second, into the post office, exited out onto Bedford, walked to the next street east, which was Third and from Third to Pleasant. From there he either walked (Prelim & Trial) or took a car (Newspaper interview) to Weybosset.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:24 pm

Thanks for the map Harry! Good work in tracing his route guys. It makes it a little easier to comprehend things when thinking about Morse's alibi.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:16 pm

This is a very interesting and informative thread,
glad I caught up with it. Morse has a tight alibi but
too tight? If as Angel said his mission there was to
help with "the Lizzie problem" why did he go off that
day, why not stay and talk to Lizzie? The map was
helpful thanks Harry.