from the lizzie borden sourcebook--lizzie heard groaning.

[snokkums]

From the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook:

"Miss Borden attracted.
The heavy fall and a subdued graoning attracted miss Borden into the house. There the terrible sight which has been described met her gaze. She rushed to the staircase and called the servant, woh was washing a window in her room on the third floor. So noislessly had the deed been done that neigher of them was aware of the bloody work going on so near them."

I thought Lizzie said she didn't hear anything and that she was in the barn. So what's up with that? Did she or didn't she hear anything?
Now I can see why the police started to suspect her, she was giving conflicting and different statements; they are even confusing me!!

[john]

Good job Snookums - excellent question. I wander what the experts will say about this?

[Kat]

You got your Sourcebook, right?
That is a collection of pretty much unsourced, and sometimes undated news items about the case based on what's called "The Emery Collection."
I think there's a forward or an Introduction which explains how this book came into being.

The problem is that early press reports were scrambled info, and wrong info and some newswriters perpetuated mistakes and rumors were printed and there was a lot of chaos in writing about the murders from the 4th at least over that first weekend.

So as you read you may find other newspapers repeating this stuff which you know is in error- or you know it's in error in hindsight because you've read documents of statements, and testimony, hopefully.
Newspapers are not a good source for a correct re-telling of events, at least early on.
They can be a good source for atmosphere and social insights. And that book is a good source of illustrations too!

Just know that there will be tons of mistakes in the first week at least of the newspaper accounts, and you can attempt to compare your knowledge with what you read. You can make notes in your book in pencil (in case you ever need to sell it), and then check against the source documents you can download at the website.
That way you will begin doing research on your own and you may surprise yourself that you like it- by finding things out for yourself. You ask some questions sometimes which you probably can find out for yourself if you knew how.

It's an interesting and rewarding process.

I'm not saying don't ask- I'm saying trust your instincts at times. Like Andrew's age. Do you know how you know how old he was? If you want to prove the newspaper wrong, check where you know Andrew's true age would be written.
It would be in his autopsy. It is in Lizzie's inquest testimony too, I believe.
To prove yourself right, you can follow a lead, like Andrew's age and prove to yourself what you know. Then cross out what's in error in the Sourcebook and write in the book where you found the correct answer. In pencil, with page number.
I don't know if you've ever tried that. It's interesting to do.

Our copy of the Sourcebook has mine and Stef's writing and question marks all through it!

[snokkums]

I alwasys thought he was 71 years of age, but I checked the autpsy report, as you suggested, and it says he was 70 years of age. Thanks for the suggestion. But that's the reason for asking, I read the facts, and then I read a newspaper report or something and get something totally different.

[Harry]

That's good advice from Kat, Snokkums. The early newspaper reports were very mixed due to the great excitment at the time. They grew progressively more accurate over time.

For your original question, hearing the "groan" is another one of those perplexing Lizzie statements. Three different people testified that she told them that she had heard something.

Police Officer Doherty at the Trial (p595):

"I asked her if she had heard any noise or outcries, or screams and she said, "No, sir. I heard a peculiar noise." "What kind of a noise, Miss Borden?" "I think it was something like scraping, scraping noise."

Mrs. Churchill at the Preliminary (p271):

"Q. What happened then?
A. I put my hand on her arm, and said "O, Lizzie". I said "Where is your father"? She said "in the sitting room". I said "where were you when it happened"? She said she went to the barn to get a piece of iron, and came back, heard a distressed noise, and came in, and found the screen door open."

At the Trial however, p352, Mrs. Churchill testified:

"Q. Do you recall that she said in addition to that that she heard a distressed noise and came in?
A. I don't remember whether she told me she heard a distressed noise or not."

It was Bridget who testified that Lizzie said she heard a groan (Trial, p244+):

Q. Did you say anything to her at that time or she to you?
A. I went around to go right in the sitting-room and she says, "Oh, Maggie, don't go in. I have got to have a doctor quick. Go over. I have got to have the doctor." So I went over to Dr. Bowen's right away, and when I came back I says, "Miss Lizzie, where was you?" I says, "Didn't I leave the screen door hooked?" She says, "I was out in the back yard and heard a groan, and came in and the screen door was wide open."

Moody in his opening argument at the trial (p74+) went into the different stories at length. He incorrectly credits Mullaly instead of Doherty.

Lizzie at the Inquest makes no mention of any noise, nor is she asked if she did.

"Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat."

Like hearing Abby come in, I think these are lies on Lizzie's part. If she could hear a noise, groan or scraping (take your pick) from outside the house how come Bridget could not hear it inside the house? There was traffic on Second St. (Lubinsky and others) about the same time so if she had heard anything from inside the house it must have been a loud groan. And was not the door from the kitchen to the sitting room closed making it even more difficult to hear any noise?

[snokkums]

yes, harry that was good advice from kat. I have also taken the advice from someone else who has said to check the autopsy reports and police reports on this site. That has been helpful too.

[Kat]

Thanks for all the testimony collected about what Lizzie did or didn't hear, Harry!!
Good to have it in one place!

~ ~ ~ ~
The transcription given in the beginning post by snokkums mentions a "heavy fall and a subdued groaning."
This means to me, that they are saying the murders happened at the same time, which we know was in very early reports, and which was in error.

[1bigsteve]

I agree with what Harry said above about Lizzie "hearing a groan."

Even if the doors had been open I doubt Lizzie could have heard any sounds coming from within the house whether she was under the pear trees or in the barn.

When that hatchet came down on Andrew I highly doubt Andrew had a chance to groan. The first hit probably knocked him senseless if not actually killing him. I also doubt he could have filled his lungs with enough air to groan loud enough to be heard by Lizzie. I could see him groaning loud enough for Lizzie to hear him if someone were chopping on his leg but not his head. On the other hand I saw a film clip of a guy shooting himself in the head and he let out a groan. It was not very loud and just may have been air escaping from his collapsing lungs. That is what it sounded like to me.

I think Lizzie came up with her "I heard a groan and came in" line as a way of shedding suspicion from herself. It seems she was trying to create answers on the fly without really thinking things through and ended up making her story less believeable. I guess that is why every good Lawyer tell's his clients, when questioned by the Police, "Keep your mouth shut."

When you are up to your nose in manure you keep your mouth shut and Lizzie just failed to do that. One lie lead to another, I think.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

I saw a film clip of a guy shooting himself in the head and he let out a groan.

--bigsteve, partial.

What do you mean when you say you saw a film clip?

~ ~ ~ ~

Also, why would Lizzie say she heard something if she didn't? It puts her very close, if not way too close to Andrew in his dying moments to say she heard something. And then she stopped saying it and changed it, supposedly.
It sounds authentic to me. It sounds like she was there.
As for Bridget, who knows? She wasn't necessarilly innocent and she wasn't necessarily in her room dozing either.

[theebmonique]

Was the film clip from one of those Faces of Death videos ? I have seen a few of those.

The "groan" could very well have been from air escaping from the lungs. But, I believe that technically, it would not be considered as the lungs 'collapsing' when this happens, but more like they are emptying. In my experience, the phrase/term having to do with lungs collapsing is usually related directly to an injury to or infection/problem with the actual lungs themselves.


Tracy...

[snokkums]

I think you are 1bigsteve. I think lizzie was up to her nose in manure too and just didn't keep her mouth shut. Plus the fact I think she didn't think she was in any kind of trouble.

[1bigsteve]

Maybe I should have used the word "deflating" lungs. He used a magnum so I doubt there was any time for him to "groan." He went down like a sac of rocks. It was lights out. I saw the clip about 20 years ago on TV. I don't remember in what context it was shown and don't want to see it again. It wasn't Faces of Death unless it was cut from that film. I never saw those films although my sister did.

Lizzie may have made up the story about "hearing a groan" then "going into the house" as a way of putting herself "outside" the house when the killing took place. If she did hear a groan then she most likely was in the house during the killing or swinging the hatchet herself. Perhaps the "groan" was his split-second reaction to seeing the hatchet coming rather than from the injury itself, like when you say "Oh sh--!" when you trip on a sidewalk. That kind of thing.

Some criminals have a tendancy to get too eager to help the police and create "facts" that later get wrapped around their own throat.

Criminal: "Oh yes, it was December 3rd at 3:02PM. No doubt about it officer! I'm positive! I remember it well because I just turned off the TV after seeing that plane crash and I opened my back door and there he was! Bigfoot eating my rose bushes!

Police: "Well, according to this receipt, which is signed in your handwriting, you were three thousand miles away in New York buying a knife on December 3rd at 3:02PM."

Criminal: "What? Um, oh you mean that December 3rd!? Well I was umm, a, what??

I think Lizzie may have gotten herself into that type of trap. But then again her actual words may have been twisted around a bit losing their original intent. I know that is standard operating practice for much of the media and Lawyers do it for a living.

I have often wondered what Bridgett was really doing during this killing. Was she really on her bed? I don't think she was involved in the killings but I would not write her off completely. Maybe Snokkums was right. Maybe she and Lizzie were in on it together. I doubt it but...

-1bigsteve (o:

[Allen]

Some criminals have a tendancy to get too eager to help the police and create "facts" that later get wrapped around their own throat.


-1bigsteve (o:

I think this is very true. It seems like in some cases they speak before they really have had time to think things through. Then once they've had more time to think, they realized they may have made a mistake in saying this or that, and their story changes. I think Lizzie did this a lot.

[FairhavenGuy]

If, if, if. . . Lizzie ever said that she heard "a heavy fall," she might actually have accidently described Abby's death. Could have been some groaning up there, too.

Just a thought.

[Ad]

It's hard to tell who's doing what without a program.

It's not the first time that Lizzie has changed her story in mid flight. I'm laughing at the top of the stairs.... oops, now I'm in the kitchen or dinning room.... or some other place.

To be sure, one could not have heard the tea kettle whistling let alone a groan from out in the barn or the backyard for that matter. I'm not sure what she was trying to cover up or where she was trying to place herself, but no groaning sounds would have carried outside....at least to that distance.

I am amazed at the amount of times that Lizzie says something questionable and it has not been challenged, or no one has followed up on it. Or in some cases not asked the question until it was answered properly or fully.

If she did hear a groan, that puts her in the kill zone or at the least, in harms way. If she did not hear the groan, then why bring up the subject?
Like a lot of things in this case. It just gets more muddled!!

Oh, by the way....I got a years subscription to The Hatchet "and" Len Rebello's book for Christmas. This copy was signed at the Borden house on the couch where Andrew met his end. That makes it extra special...if that's possible.

[Allen]

If, if, if. . . Lizzie ever said that she heard "a heavy fall," she might actually have accidently described Abby's death. Could have been some groaning up there, too.

Just a thought.

That is an interesting possibility FairhavenGuy.

[nbcatlover]

I do not believe Lizzie heard a groan coming up the walk. If she heard any sound, it may have been when she was placing her hat on the dining room table or even upon entering the sitting room.

As 1bigsteve noted, lungs expel some of the air in them after death. If there is saliva/mucous in the throat, a rattling, gargle-like sound is heard.

Dead bodies also make noise when they release flatus and feces after death. This too is a distressing sound.

If anyone is under the assumption that Andrew was still alive when Lizzie heard "the groan", I think this is improbable.

[Smudgeman]

Lizzie was upstairs, Lizzie was downstairs, she was in the barn, in the kitchen, ironing hankerchiefs, sewing, down cellar, she must have made herself dizzy with all of her activity. I think it is safe to say that Lizzie is full of baloney, I don't think she ever heard a moan or scraping sound unless she is recalling the act of killing her parents. She is throwing in bits and pieces of her busy morning to confuse everyone, and she did a fabulous job of it.

[Kat]

I've often wondered if Lizzie was actually describing Abby's death. A thump and a goan- but that's the newspapers jumbling things.
But include that door she *pushed open it was not latched*, and added to a thump and a groan = Abby-in-the-guestroom to me!

[Harry]

Here's Lizzie's conversation with Police Officer Harrington from Harrington's notes, taken August 4th. Witness Statements, page 5+:

“Saw father, when he returned from the P.O. He sat down to read the paper. I went out to the barn, remained twenty minutes; returned, and found him dead. Saw no one in the yard when going to or returning from the barn. Heard no noise whatever while in the barn.” (To a question.)Not even the opening or closing of the screen door. “Why not, you were but a short distance, and would hear the noise so made?” “I was upstairs in the loft.”

Which means that if she did hear a noise that she was outside of the barn. And even more important the killer was still inside the house. How come she did not see him exiting the side door?

The whole "hearing a groan" story just doesn't hold up.

As a side note, Lizzie mentions her father reading the paper. I have never read anywhere that a paper was found near him. Bridget testified she saw him reading what she thought was a small book.

[RayS]

Note how much is being said about speculative answers.
The questions is: what did Lizzie actually say that first day? Afterwards? We know she was silent in court.

I still think the "groan" or noise was made by the spring on the screen door, as seen in one of the pictures taken at that time.
The real truth (as I believe) is that Lizzie was in the back yard all the time. when she heard the noice she knew the Visitor had left and it was time to return to the house. Andy did not want her inside when he discussed his business with the Visitor. "Never ask me about my business."

I've given my opinions many times in the past, that's all over with. I spent enough time on this.

This case is another exampley WHY you should go by authenticated facts and not the newspaper reports, then or now. That is why the judge will always tell the jury to only pay attention to what is said in court, and ignore comments or newspaper ariticles. (The REAL TRUTH is that newspapers are not always reliable as to the facts; editors will try to save space and costs, or jazz up the story for circulation.) IMO

[snokkums]

Good point Harry. I never heard anyone say they found a book or a paper near Andrew, either.

[Ad]

As a side note, Lizzie mentions her father reading the paper. I have never read anywhere that a paper was found near him. Bridget testified she saw him reading what she thought was a small book.

As I recall Andrew went up to his bedroom before he came to rest on the couch. Could the “printed matter” that he was reading been a rough copy of a will?

I’m on my laptop and not near my books etc, so I can’t check the location of the vault.
But I do know that there was a safe on site and that if took forever to crack after the murders. Was in it the master bedroom?

I get the feeling that whoever did the killing was working on a time factor. Why August the 4th, a Thursday? If Andrew was working on fine tuning his estate, that would definitely give someone motive to “alter the future” in their favour, don’t you think?

Could this be connected to the tube or roll of ash in the kitchen stove? One can roll up a will (although they burn quicker if you don’t)

I don’t recall anything of this nature (printed matter) listed in evidence or mentioned in the police interviews / reports.

Sorry if I slipped off the subject

[john]

I agree with Kat, I think she heard a groan from somewhere. And newspapers, while unreliable, don't just make things up, so there was probabaly a thud that she heard too. She appears to be in a monster stress position, and hasn't concocted a good cover story yet. You'll notice she shuts up after she's talked with an attorney.
The thing (one of them) that always bugged me, was why, if she was innocent, she so readily accepted the jail time. She even wanted to go early.
Just doesn't sound like an outsider to me.

[john]

Also, there is a "death rattle," which bodies do when they die. I've heard it and it's more of a gurgle than a groan, but others might construe it differently - someone initially called it a "rattle."

[Kat]

What does the above post have to do with this topic?
It looks like you want your own website.

[Ad]

Kat,

Were you refering to me?
Again, Sorry if I slipped off the subject

[Smudgeman]

She was not referring to you Ad. Another post was in between yours and hers, but has since been deleted. It seems that an obnoxious member of the forum needed attention, and was babbling nonsense as usual.