I just got a copy of Doreen Rapport's book Be The Judge. Be The Jury. The Lizzie Borden Trial I've just started looking through it. What's unusual is the book is actually meant for kids. I've already found two major errors in the book. They have the picture of Bridget on page 13, and they say it's Abby. Then on page 48, they do have Abby's picture but they say it's Bridget. They also have a picture of Andrew Jennings and they have that identified as Andrew Borden!
The book more or less walks a student through the trial. Rapport has things such as, "What Evidence Is Allowed At A Trial?" and she also includes things such as, "Be The Jury" were she writes:
"The government does not have to prove Lizzie guilty beyond all possibility of a doubt, but rather the prosecution must establish her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense doesn't have to prove that she is innocent. The defense only needs to point out flaws in incriminating evidence to convince the jury that her guilt was not proved."
From there she goes on with things such as, "The Prosecution's Strategy" and "The Defense's Strategy." At The end of some of the chapters she asks questions of the student :
"Why did Lizzie change her dress?"
For someone new to the case the book did provide something for me to think about. Now, I don't know how accurate this is but the book took the testimony of Thomas Kiernan and Dr. Bowen and pointed out that when they went upstairs they didn't see a body right away:
This is from page 39, where Kiernan is asked about an experiment he and assistant did. He had his assistant lay down where Abby's body would have been:
Q: When you were in the hall upstairs, in front of Miss Lizzie's room, did you see your assistant?"
A. No, I couldn't see any portion of his body.
Next question to Dr. Bowen:
Q: You knew that Mrs. Borden was lying on the floor of the guest room. When you went up the stairs, did you see her?"
A. No. I didn't see her until I was at the guest- room door.
Rapport follows this up by asking the student:
"If neither Kiernan nor Bowen saw anything going up the stairs, why should Lizzie?"
I thought that was a pretty good question. Why would Lizzie see anything?
The author ends with a chapter called, "Guilty or Innocent?" She brings up things such as some people thought Judge Dewey's charge was improper and that it "was a plea for Lizzie's innocence instead of an instruction to help the jury understand the law."Was it?
Has anyone else looked at this book? Do you think it's a good book for both kids and maybe newbies to the case? Or maybe too many errors?
Lizzie book for kids
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
-
theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
I have have that book and have been in contact with Ms. Rappaport in the past. A delightful lady.
I think the book is great for kids. Yes, there are some errors, but I believe that despite them, it is a great place for kids to start. It helps them to develop and use some critical thinking skills. I think the mistakes in the book would be easily corrected in a young person's mind as they became more involved with studying the case and that they would probably never even remember the mistakes. While we may be thinking "damn...that is wrong."...to a newcomer, they are so confounded by some of the details as they begin their studies on this case anyway...that I truly think the mistakes in the book will not be a major monkey wrench in their eventual learning process. If one of my students wanted to use that book...I would aloow them to, as it is a good starting place for their age group. If I could, or if they asked...I would discuss the mistakes, but would try to keep it simple...to keep their confusion at a minimum.
Tracy...
I think the book is great for kids. Yes, there are some errors, but I believe that despite them, it is a great place for kids to start. It helps them to develop and use some critical thinking skills. I think the mistakes in the book would be easily corrected in a young person's mind as they became more involved with studying the case and that they would probably never even remember the mistakes. While we may be thinking "damn...that is wrong."...to a newcomer, they are so confounded by some of the details as they begin their studies on this case anyway...that I truly think the mistakes in the book will not be a major monkey wrench in their eventual learning process. If one of my students wanted to use that book...I would aloow them to, as it is a good starting place for their age group. If I could, or if they asked...I would discuss the mistakes, but would try to keep it simple...to keep their confusion at a minimum.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
-
1bigsteve
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:29 pm
- Real Name: evetS
- Location: California
Maybe one of us Bordenites ought to write a kid's book on this case, without the mistakes. Wouldn't that be neat-o! Self publishing? Worth thinking about. Kids love mysteries. Where else but this site are you going to find the real facts? By writing and publishing it ourselves we can verify the information, time line, characters, court records about who said what, and make sure the photos are of the right characters. We wouldn't have to worry about an editor or typesetter getting anything mixed-up because the experts would be doing the editing and typesetting. A mistake-free book!
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
-
theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
Taking it down to a kid's level...without overwhelming them would be great. I know we have many writers/authors who belong to this forum.
I do like the involvement of using critical thinking skills which Ms. Rappaort uses. Her style works extremely well with students at the middle school level. After my contact with Ms Rappaport, a teacher in my building decided to use another one of Ms. R's books for her geography/history/social studies classes.
The format of the Be the Judge/Be the Jury series is quite adaptable for classroom use and for "beginners of study".
Tracy...
I do like the involvement of using critical thinking skills which Ms. Rappaort uses. Her style works extremely well with students at the middle school level. After my contact with Ms Rappaport, a teacher in my building decided to use another one of Ms. R's books for her geography/history/social studies classes.
The format of the Be the Judge/Be the Jury series is quite adaptable for classroom use and for "beginners of study".
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
-
1bigsteve
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:29 pm
- Real Name: evetS
- Location: California
When I was a kid I loved books that were fairly easy to understand but yet forced me to use my brain and so many of them didn't. I loved "investigating" through a story and find out things for my self. I hated the "See Tommy and his butterfly? Aren't they wonderful? The End" type of stuff that did all the thinking for me. I was hooked on the space program with the Mercury flights and saw it all on TV. I loved using my brain cells and discovering new things.
I think if more kids were hooked on books that could really reach out and hold their interest there would be less time for gangs, drugs, guns, knives, violent video games and skateboards. They didn't have any of that stuff when I was a kid but kids are growing up on that now days. The internet, TV and the video games do their thinking for them it seems. Interesting books are needed. Who was it that said "books are the gateway to the mind?" I believe that. I'm glad Ms. Rappaport's books are doing their job. We need more authors like her.
-1bigsteve (o:
I think if more kids were hooked on books that could really reach out and hold their interest there would be less time for gangs, drugs, guns, knives, violent video games and skateboards. They didn't have any of that stuff when I was a kid but kids are growing up on that now days. The internet, TV and the video games do their thinking for them it seems. Interesting books are needed. Who was it that said "books are the gateway to the mind?" I believe that. I'm glad Ms. Rappaport's books are doing their job. We need more authors like her.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
That's the thing- it takes a professional to write for that age audience. Not just anyone can do it, or should do it.
I suppose a member could advise/consult as to facts, but that's about it.
My next-door-but-one neighbor writes educational children's books and she has degrees and experience and has worked in publishing as well.
DWilly, why don't you check the quotes and compare them to the trial?
Then you will know if they are right.
However, I can say that the point made is not quite correct because a person could not see the body of Abby from the hall, as Kieran couldn't, but could see her from the stairs- whereas Bowen says he saw it from entering the doorway to the room. The mistake the author makes is trying to include comparing where people saw Abby's body from to the statement:
"If neither Kiernan nor Bowen saw anything going up the stairs, why should Lizzie?"
We have that book. I understand some copies have the mistakes and some copies don't.
I suppose a member could advise/consult as to facts, but that's about it.
My next-door-but-one neighbor writes educational children's books and she has degrees and experience and has worked in publishing as well.
DWilly, why don't you check the quotes and compare them to the trial?
Then you will know if they are right.
However, I can say that the point made is not quite correct because a person could not see the body of Abby from the hall, as Kieran couldn't, but could see her from the stairs- whereas Bowen says he saw it from entering the doorway to the room. The mistake the author makes is trying to include comparing where people saw Abby's body from to the statement:
"If neither Kiernan nor Bowen saw anything going up the stairs, why should Lizzie?"
We have that book. I understand some copies have the mistakes and some copies don't.
-
1bigsteve
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:29 pm
- Real Name: evetS
- Location: California
Perhaps Kieran could see "Abby's" body from the stairs because he was looking to his left when his head was at floor level and so could see under the bed but Dr. Bowen didn't bother looking into the room until he got to the top landing. As he got into the guest room doorway he was tall enough to see over the the left edge of the bed and saw the left side of "Abby's" body. The closer he got to the bed the more of her body he could see. That's my guess anyway. I'll have to go through his testimony again.
My sister brought home a book from school about a little woman made out of a stick twig with a nut for a head. I remember thumbing through it and fell in love with the idea of writing a kid's book about a bunch of twig people living in a giant oak tree whose biggest fear was fire. My little moral-of-the-story was "don't play with matches." I wanted the last line to read ..."and that old oak tree still exists to this day and if you look real hard you just may find it in your own backyard." Unfortunately I don't know anything about writing. I had spent all these years looking for that book and recently discovered a copy in a pile of books a friend gave me. It's "Miss Hickory." Don't laugh but I still read Kid's books now and then. I'm collecting all 7 Donna Parker books in first and second edition covers. Some of us just never grow up no matter how old we get. I guess that, in some ways, is a good thing. I wouldn't want to get too old and crotchety.
-1bigsteve (o:
My sister brought home a book from school about a little woman made out of a stick twig with a nut for a head. I remember thumbing through it and fell in love with the idea of writing a kid's book about a bunch of twig people living in a giant oak tree whose biggest fear was fire. My little moral-of-the-story was "don't play with matches." I wanted the last line to read ..."and that old oak tree still exists to this day and if you look real hard you just may find it in your own backyard." Unfortunately I don't know anything about writing. I had spent all these years looking for that book and recently discovered a copy in a pile of books a friend gave me. It's "Miss Hickory." Don't laugh but I still read Kid's books now and then. I'm collecting all 7 Donna Parker books in first and second edition covers. Some of us just never grow up no matter how old we get. I guess that, in some ways, is a good thing. I wouldn't want to get too old and crotchety.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
Visit the most views site in the history of the Lizzie Andrew Borden Society and make up your own mind about her guilt. "Could All The World Have Known This Was Coming Down;" see what the experts say and really decide for yourself - did Bowen have a telephone; why wasn't the crime phoned in? Why did Lizzie wear a hat to go out to the barn? Why couldn't Andrew enter his own house? See John's posts on "keys," "guest room," and more. Learn big about Lizzie!
-
Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
-
DWilly
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:15 pm
- Real Name:
Harry @ Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:33 pm wrote:The drawing on the cover of Rappaport's book is quite striking with Lizzie standing in the sitting room with the couch prominently behind her. IMO, it's one of the best covers of any Borden book.
The dress isn't blue but it does have the little diamond shape on it. Here's the cover:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Kieran didn't look from the stairs- or didn't testify to that. He was talking about what he could see from the upper hall.
Downstairs there was a question about what could be seen of anyone hiding in that shallow front hall closet if the door was ajar.
The guestroom was supposedly a bit dark on the day according to Bowen, which was mentioned here.
Downstairs there was a question about what could be seen of anyone hiding in that shallow front hall closet if the door was ajar.
The guestroom was supposedly a bit dark on the day according to Bowen, which was mentioned here.
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
And now she is after me (Stefani) apparently because I am suddenly the most popular person on this site, and have the most views of any site. And now she wants me to do some things that I can't understand and it sounds like Hitler to me!
Stephanie Hitler!
Well I'm just being myself and doing things you said I could do so keep your SS out of my house and I always thought Herman Goering was scary!
Stephanie Hitler!
Well I'm just being myself and doing things you said I could do so keep your SS out of my house and I always thought Herman Goering was scary!
-
Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:14 am
- Real Name:
How dare you make such a statement?
Reducing the literal genocide of millions upon millions of innocent people to some sort of attention seeking joke?
Truly, sir-- you are no gentleman and certainly not worthy of the attention you so desperately crave.
Come visit (on 2nd thought don't) the home I grew up in and look at the stone walls in the courtyard and see where the Nazi troops scraped their initials and German obscenities into the surface-- something no amount of sandblasting, acid treatments or anything else my darling mother tried ever lasted for more than a few months. Come inside and see the formal salon where the same savages urinated in the corner, ruining the parquet... There is a large potted palm there now-- either that or remove the centuries old wood. Laugh and joke about the (literally) millions of dollars of art work my family NEVER recovered...
Then you call Stefani, a charming, MATURE acting woman that despicable name again and I will gladly hunt you down and slap the 'merde' out you.
Reducing the literal genocide of millions upon millions of innocent people to some sort of attention seeking joke?
Truly, sir-- you are no gentleman and certainly not worthy of the attention you so desperately crave.
Come visit (on 2nd thought don't) the home I grew up in and look at the stone walls in the courtyard and see where the Nazi troops scraped their initials and German obscenities into the surface-- something no amount of sandblasting, acid treatments or anything else my darling mother tried ever lasted for more than a few months. Come inside and see the formal salon where the same savages urinated in the corner, ruining the parquet... There is a large potted palm there now-- either that or remove the centuries old wood. Laugh and joke about the (literally) millions of dollars of art work my family NEVER recovered...
Then you call Stefani, a charming, MATURE acting woman that despicable name again and I will gladly hunt you down and slap the 'merde' out you.
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
You've gone too far john.
I have had numerous complaints about you today and I decided to ask Stefani what she thought. She determines if there is disruption or if the rules are being observed.
Apparently they aren't, in your case, if she has contacted you privately.
Yet you have spoken openly of her private talk with you and sound quick to misrepresent her approach. That's not fair.
I have had numerous complaints about you today and I decided to ask Stefani what she thought. She determines if there is disruption or if the rules are being observed.
Apparently they aren't, in your case, if she has contacted you privately.
Yet you have spoken openly of her private talk with you and sound quick to misrepresent her approach. That's not fair.
-
theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
-
Adminlizzieborden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:09 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Stefani Koorey
- Location: Westport, MA
- Contact:
Maybe you would like to think about what is going on instead of being silly about it? I let you know that it is bad netiquette to crosspost. It is not an arguable or debatable point. Please remove all the duplicates. You can leave one, as is custom with posting on forums.john @ Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:48 pm wrote:And now she is after me (Stefani) apparently because I am suddenly the most popular person on this site, and have the most views of any site. And now she wants me to do some things that I can't understand and it sounds like Hitler to me!
Stephanie Hitler!
Well I'm just being myself and doing things you said I could do so keep your SS out of my house and I always thought Herman Goering was scary!
By the way, you are in MY house, I am not in yours. I refer you to the rules as posted on the main page. Here is the link for your files:
rules.php
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
fair is foul and foul is fair
hover through the fog and filthy air.
Yes I have spoken with Stephanie - and yes I did meet personally with Arnold Brown, and yes I have specific opinions about Lizzie Borden that don't include your views, and yes I did write the play, "Send In The Clowns," and yes I did write the play, "Delta Dawn," and yes I did write the play, "At The Hop," so are you happily?
I guess I like you anyway!
hover through the fog and filthy air.
Yes I have spoken with Stephanie - and yes I did meet personally with Arnold Brown, and yes I have specific opinions about Lizzie Borden that don't include your views, and yes I did write the play, "Send In The Clowns," and yes I did write the play, "Delta Dawn," and yes I did write the play, "At The Hop," so are you happily?
I guess I like you anyway!
-
Adminlizzieborden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:09 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Stefani Koorey
- Location: Westport, MA
- Contact:
I am confused John. You have not replied to my emails, nor have we "spoken". Are you oK? You keep antagonizing people, or trying to. You don't seem to be making any sense. Life's too short to be so strange to people, don't you agree?john @ Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:32 am wrote:fair is foul and foul is fair
hover through the fog and filthy air.
Yes I have spoken with Stephanie - and yes I did meet personally with Arnold Brown, and yes I have specific opinions about Lizzie Borden that don't include your views, and yes I did write the play, "Send In The Clowns," and yes I did write the play, "Delta Dawn," and yes I did write the play, "At The Hop," so are you happily?
I guess I like you anyway!
-
1bigsteve
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:29 pm
- Real Name: evetS
- Location: California
john @ Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:48 pm wrote:And now she is after me (Stefani) apparently because I am suddenly the most popular person on this site, and have the most views of any site. And now she wants me to do some things that I can't understand and it sounds like Hitler to me!
Stephanie Hitler!
Well I'm just being myself and doing things you said I could do so keep your SS out of my house and I always thought Herman Goering was scary!
:ncool: -1bigsteve )o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
-
Adminlizzieborden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:09 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Stefani Koorey
- Location: Westport, MA
- Contact:
-
RayS
- Posts: 2508
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Bordentown NJ
"john" says he met Arnold Brown.
Can he tell us the date, time, and place for this meeting? And explain the circumstances? Name the witnesses?
If not, he should be regarded as a lying troublemaker.
I would vote him off this board as an example and warning to the others. Let his posts remain to warn any others.
There is a difference between a deeply held opinion and telling a deliberate lie.
Can he tell us the date, time, and place for this meeting? And explain the circumstances? Name the witnesses?
If not, he should be regarded as a lying troublemaker.
I would vote him off this board as an example and warning to the others. Let his posts remain to warn any others.
There is a difference between a deeply held opinion and telling a deliberate lie.