lizzie a victim of incest?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:48 pm

Absolutely, Audrey, and so many of them in show biz.

Allen, I'm familiar, through my reading, with that syndrome wherein the abused child feels, as part of the dynamic, that she or he is the favored, special beloved.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:57 pm

Audrey @ Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:08 pm wrote:
It is also worthy of noting that the abuser generally tries to isolate his victim from society and people he/she may tell. Would Andrew have sent Lizzie to Europe if this were the case? He may not have been able to stop her from her charitable work in town-- But refusing to pay for her Grand Tour would have certainly been his prerogative.

It's worthy of note, but it's not always the case. I have some personal knowledge concerning child molestation and what can happen between the victim and the abuser. That's all I care to say, other than this wasn't the case.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:06 pm

No, I guess there is one more thing I would like to add. If the abuser does a good enough job of convincing the victim that only bad things will happen if they tell, they need not worry about isolating the child. All they need to do is fill them with these sort of words " No one will believe you.".."They will say it's all your fault."..."Everyone will hate you."..."Mommy will be mad at you."..."They'll take you away and you won't see mommy anymore"...and so many more things like this. If the abuser instills these things in the abused long enough and well enough, they need not worry about the isolation. After the child reaches adulthood, some of these things can still be used to the abusers advantage, and other's such as these can be added.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:22 pm

Dark, dark, dark. Ay, me.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:47 pm

Unfortunately, with school, I haven't had much time to contribute to some of these topics.

Fourth Street for the Chaces is one of those things that has me wanting to go back to the Fall River directories quick. I know Hiram Harrington's business was at 76 Fourth St., and there was another name I had looked at that had ties to Fourth Street (when I get some time, I'll go through my crate of notes).

Personally, I have no true feelings about Lizzie and incest and Lizzie and abortion. I think both are possible, but that's a long way from being true.

If you have some time, look at this site:

http://www.missamericabyday.com/index.html

This Miss America was an incest survivor. Her father was a socially-prominent Denver millionaire. One of the resource pages on her site discusses emotional incest. I could identify that with Lizzie easily.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:28 pm

Thanks for the link Susan.

(edit: Thanks nbcatlover. Ok, I really do need a vacation. I apologize.)

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:40 pm

This Chace family member says Lizzie was a witch...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dgwar/witches.htm

KT72 · Post by **KT72** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:41 am

Allen @ Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:06 pm wrote:No, I guess there is one more thing I would like to add. If the abuser does a good enough job of convincing the victim that only bad things will happen if they tell, they need not worry about isolating the child. All they need to do is fill them with these sort of words " No one will believe you.".."They will say it's all your fault."..."Everyone will hate you."..."Mommy will be mad at you."..."They'll take you away and you won't see mommy anymore"...and so many more things like this. If the abuser instills these things in the abused long enough and well enough, they need not worry about the isolation. After the child reaches adulthood, some of these things can still be used to the abusers advantage, and other's such as these can be added.

I think there's also the gifts-for-silence factor, as you mentioned earlier. The Grand Tour may have been a kind of payoff or bribe, if you will - "I'll give you this if you don't tell." It would be a tacit kind of this-for-that arrangement, and in such cases, the abused person indeed will not say a word. THe only time she would say anything would be if some favor was withheld. There are cases today of sexually abused adolescents/teenagers who keep silent for years, only to speak up when the abusing parent refuses them some material desire, like possessions or trips.

Applying this kind of arrangement to Lizzie, one can easily imagine that after so many years of being bought off, her rage/frustration/loathing, stored up from years of silence, exploded like a pressure cooker.

Elizabelle · Post by **Elizabelle** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:49 am

[quote="FairhavenGuy @ Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:31 pm"]I'm sorry, Susan, but the wording of your question along with the use of the rolling eyes guy

gave me the impression you were being a little snarky.
quote]

I think the little "rolling eyes" emoticon is very annoying and immature.

I don't view it as a "question" emoticon. To me, the "rolling eyes" is a symbol for exasperated annoyance, which is the only time I roll my eyes in real life.

I never roll my eyes when I have a question...because the person I'm asking might take that as a sign of being disrespectful and not answer me!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:46 pm

Oops. I'll quit using it.
I really thought of it as Susan did as a question mark.
I rarely roll my eyes but I've seen others do that.
Sorry if any use of it was misunderstood.
Thanks to those who spoke up!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:06 pm

Bon Dieu....

So what if people want to use it? Even if they want to roll their eyes?

Methinks.............

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:11 pm

I don't know as much about this case as you do but from what I have read McHenry and Trickey is at best a dubious source. I find it odd that Gramma "hints" about anything. Why not just tell us? I would love to have her explain how she uses McHenry and Trickey article and then abandons it to come up with the "abortion story" which is not part of the article nor was it part of the Ruby Cameron story.

I have a few questions. Who was Gramma's relative who worked for Lizzie and how was this information verified? Also, is Gramma claiming that Lizzie told this relative something she didn't tell Ruby?

And finally in regard to this from your post:

We can still keep Nance in the picture if you want, but even she had a husband.

Normally, I would point out in a "frank and open" way that many gays and lesbians married. Especially, back then. I would also try to explain why they did, but I won't. Given your "if you want" comment I can see it would be pointless.

Putting my sentence in bold gave it more weight than I intended.
I am sorry if that sounded like we could not discuss something particularly.
Please excuse me.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:30 pm

About "Gramma's" theories:
I have not gone back and re-read all her posts. She has been around here a while and I could not quote her for the life of me. There are many places where she has shared her thoughts on Lizzie here and also she has been published in the Hatchet. I don't know if you have read all that?
I do know that she always cautions us not to assume that everything in the Trickey/McHenry story is a false claim. I think her position on that is to read between the lines.
I think she thinks that the way we treat the story there is like throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater (irony intended

): something we also tend to do with Arnold Brown or Victoria Lincoln.

As for Gramma's relationship to Lizzie- are you asking if that has been verified?
I would have to say yes, mostly.
From hints we have deduced that she is the granddaughter of Gertrude M. Callow whose short bio is in Rebello, pg. 289.
She would be daughter of Mrs. (Virginia) Taylor, so her maiden name was Taylor.

Stefani knows her married name and she is also known to those at the Fall River Historical Society.

Gertrude Callow, according to Gramma, was a companion to Lizbeth (not exactly a servant), especially in her travels.
She left Lizbeth's employ for courtship and marriage.

Gramma herself was a good friend to Ruby in her last years and actually helped her with her writings. I personally don't know what those writings consisted of- there may be more to the story than hit the press in the 1980's.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:43 pm

[quote="Elizabelle @ Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:49 amI think the little "rolling eyes" emoticon is very annoying and immature.

I don't view it as a "question" emoticon. To me, the "rolling eyes" is a symbol for exasperated annoyance, which is the only time I roll my eyes in real life.

I never roll my eyes when I have a question...because the person I'm asking might take that as a sign of being disrespectful and not answer me!

[/quote]

I also will stop using it, since it seems to be bothering people lately. The way I've always viewed it was when you ask a person a question that they have to think about, they quickly roll their eyes up and look towards their forehead or third eye or what have you for the answer. I believe that there was actually something in a newspaper article on the trial when they described Alice Russell. When asked a question, she did something with her eyes that if I recall correctly, irked the writer of the article. I think she may have looked upwards while answering

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:27 pm

IMHO the 'eye rolling' controversy is MUCH ado about NOTHING.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:31 am

I almost always roll my eyes upward when I'm thinking about something like a question someone has asked me (I squint my eyes too). If I do it with a smirk on my face than I'm saying "Yea, right" in a sarcastic manner.

I don't take offence at the rolling eyes emoticon myself. But like Audrey said, "Much ado about nothing."

-1bigsteve (o: