First Instinct

[Susan]

You're welcome, Kat and Annemiek. I personally find it helpful to have visuals with things like the dress materials being discussed. I don't know if this description of the dress Lizzie was wearing the morning of the murders was included, Patrick Doherty, Preliminaries 4:

Q. Do you remember how she was dressed?
A. I have a faint recollection of the dress.
Q. What is that faint recollection?
A. I think it was a calico dress. I cannot describe it much; something similar to that lady's over there writing, that kind of stuff, whatever you call it.
Q. You mean the material, you do not mean the color?
A. I mean the material. I thought the bosom of it was starched stiff.
Q. What was its color, I mean more particularly?
A. Well, it was blue of that kind, or a light blue, a little blue.
Q. Was it a dress that gave you the idea that it was the same color the whole of it?
A. No, it was figured printed spotted.
Q. A print dress with figures in it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The general color of it was blue?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Light blue?
A. No.
Q. Do you see any such color here?
A. They call them challies, or something like that; I do not know.
Q. Well, you are showing considerable knowledge. It was a figured challie then?
A. I would not say it was a challie; but it was figured.
Q. What I am trying to get at is the general color of that dress. I understand you to say it was light blue?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you were a little uncertain; I thought if you could see some color here ---- Do you see a neck tie near you, or the dress back of Mr. Jennings?
A. I do not see anything just now that would compare to it.
Q. You do not see any color here that reminds you of it?
A. No Sir, I would not say, unless it was Mr. Spear's neck tie; something like that, with blue spots.
Q. It had a white ground?
Page 344
A. There was white to it.
Q. There was white to it?
A. I thought so; it was of that stuff.
Q. I suppose you are not very sure about this any way; you have only a general impression of it?
A. I cannot describe that dress. I have a faint recollection of it, but I cannot describe it right. I think there was a blue spot in it, a spot as large as the rubber on Mr. Jennings pencil I thought, or nearly as big.
Q. Did you observe her dress otherwise, whether she had shoes on?
A. No Sir I did not.

Interesting how many different descriptions there are that day;

Bridget and Alice don't know what she is wearing though Alice says its not the Bedford cord.

Dr. Bowen says its a drab dress, a morning calico, an ordinary, unattractive, common dress. (morning calico-would that at least make the dress he saw cotton?)

Phoebe Bowen seems to be describing the Bengaline dress.

Mrs. Churchill seems to be describing the Bedford cord dress.

And Doherty seems to be describing the Bedford cord dress.

[Airmid]

Having read through Alice's testimonies, I can't say I found any hints about her being impressionable. I did notice something else, though. Alice seems to display a tendency to form her opinions from assumptions, not from facts.

The best example of this comes from her Inquest testimony:
A ... Then when they came down I remember Mrs. Churchill saying "O, Mrs. Borden" this way. Whatever she said or did gave me that impression she had gone too. I did not then know either of them were murdered. I suppose it was from this impression of the poison that I had had in my mind.
Q When did you first learn that they were murdered?
A I got Lizzie into the dining room, on to the dining room lounge, and we were there, I don't know how long, when her Uncle came in.
Q That is Morse?
A Yes Sir. And something he said about their being murdered, and looked up to her, then it dawned on my mind that it was cold blooded murder. That is the first idea that I had that it was murder.

Apparently Alice never asked Lizzie what had happened, and didn't ask Mrs. Churchill either what had happened to Mrs. Borden. Perhaps Alice is showing here a particular lack of curiosity. But I would rather think that, in her mind, there was no need for her to ask what had happened, because she "knew" what had happened: they died of poisoning.

If I apply this theory to the stick incident, I come up with the following:
Alice didn't notice the stick in the evening, so she assumed it hadn't been there in the evening. Therefore someone, in her mind, must have placed it there, and since it was in the room where she had slep that night, she assumed the police would think that she had hidden it there, and that's what frightened her so much.

Even if this theory is correct, it doesn't help us to answer the question which dress Lizzie was wearing. A pity!

Airmid.

[RayS]

IF Andrew kept a club under his bed that would say something about his fears. I'm sure he slept with a locked door, but nobody has said anything about this.
Alice would not notice this at night, the darkness. But in daylight she could see under the bed. IMO

[RayS]

A pink wrapper seems an odd choice for a grieving daughter.

But WHY? You didn't explain.
If a 'wrapper' is a name for a robe, that seems a likely color for a young girl. What else would she use? Wearing all black may be the style in European countries (where someone is dying every month), but not in America. For some decades past, an older woman dressed in black would likely speak with an accent.

[Richard]

We also can't discount the possibility that Lizzie was just freaked out of her mind. She just found her father lying with his head smashed open. She's sitting on the side of the steps afraid of being in the house, staying close to the screen door where she feels help will soon arrive, and if she thinks Abby is out of the house, she would call up the stairs to Bridget. She doesn't want to go back into the sitting room, perhaps because she is sickened by the sight of the body, or afraid to be near it (I know if I were alone in a house with a mutilated body I would stay in another room as much as possible until the police arrived). If she thought Abby might be up the front of the house, to yell up those stairs would require her to go through the sitting room to the front of the house. So she clings to the back staircase and calls up for Bridget.

I like the scenario of Andrew and Abby both being killed while Lizzie is in the barn. The killer may have hidden a hatchet inside his coat, got inside the house, and did both murders before Lizzie came back from the barn.

However, how does that explain the coagulation of the blood around Abby's head, the autopsy evidence of her stomach contents, both of which pointed to a death much earlier than Andrew.

Also, doesn't it seem likely that Abby was murdered in the guest room after 9am, just a short while after she LAST SEEN ALIVE going up to the guest room. Also, if the sick note did arrive and did exist, I'm sure someone would have come forward saying "I was the person who called for Abby." Of course the prosecution would be baffled by this since they wanted to catch Lizzie in a lie, and the defense would have a field day since that showed that she is telling the truth about something.

The note never being found, no one coming forward to verify the story, the autopsy evidence of Abby's stomach, the condition of her blood stains, the fact that she was last seen alive going up to the room where she was murdered, all makes me think that she was murdered shortly after going up to the guest room closer to 9am.

[RayS]

We also can't discount the possibility that Lizzie was just freaked out of her mind. She just found her father lying with his head smashed open. She's sitting on the side of the steps afraid of being in the house, staying close to the screen door where she feels help will soon arrive, and if she thinks Abby is out of the house, she would call up the stairs to Bridget. She doesn't want to go back into the sitting room, perhaps because she is sickened by the sight of the body, or afraid to be near it (I know if I were alone in a house with a mutilated body I would stay in another room as much as possible until the police arrived). If she thought Abby might be up the front of the house, to yell up those stairs would require her to go through the sitting room to the front of the house. So she clings to the back staircase and calls up for Bridget.

I like the scenario of Andrew and Abby both being killed while Lizzie is in the barn. The killer may have hidden a hatchet inside his coat, got inside the house, and did both murders before Lizzie came back from the barn.

However, how does that explain the coagulation of the blood around Abby's head, the autopsy evidence of her stomach contents, both of which pointed to a death much earlier than Andrew.

Also, doesn't it seem likely that Abby was murdered in the guest room after 9am, just a short while after she LAST SEEN ALIVE going up to the guest room. Also, if the sick note did arrive and did exist, I'm sure someone would have come forward saying "I was the person who called for Abby." Of course the prosecution would be baffled by this since they wanted to catch Lizzie in a lie, and the defense would have a field day since that showed that she is telling the truth about something.

The note never being found, no one coming forward to verify the story, the autopsy evidence of Abby's stomach, the condition of her blood stains, the fact that she was last seen alive going up to the room where she was murdered, all makes me think that she was murdered shortly after going up to the guest room closer to 9am.

1) Abby was killed about 9:30 am, not long after last being seen alive. Bridget was outside, Lizzie says she was in the basement WC, and Andy had left the house. Since Abby got a note, her absence was not notable.
2) Andy was killed around 11 am, not long after he returned (10:45?). Bridget was up in her room, Lizzie was in the back yard (or in the barn, or up in the loft).
3) Given one person killing both, it could not be either Lizzie or Bridget.
4) This is called "a locked room mystery" in works of fiction. Who did it? The persons known to be there didn't do it, so it had to be an unknown person (finding the connection is the clue). Just who was supposed to be there for a business meeting? Not the Brayton who vowed to "get even" with Andy, not his former accountant (in Albany NY). Not the other suspects questioned by the police detectives.
5) No blood stains on clothes, no murder weapon say no inhabitant of the house was guilty.
QED
Arnold Brown explains the note as a ruse to get Abby out of the house. The person who sent it kept quiet since it would have exposed his role. Brown mentions the daughter of William Bassett died a few months later, and surmises she could have been the sick person used to lure Abby from the house to allow a secret meeting with a secret visitor.

When you get to know the facts of the case, you will see how Arnold Brown solved the case. In so far as possible.
Ellan Eagan's "recovered memory" bothered me, but it was not impossible.

[Kat]

The dress testimony used to drive me crazy until I realized that some if not most of Lizzie's dresses were probably in 2 pieces. Skirt & blouses. Of similar colors and or patterns, or close enough to a man's eye at least.
So since the Bedford cord was so memorable because it was stained with paint and was too long that it dragged (not really suitable for indoor wear) and had a ruffle at the bottom, it's possible the skirt was not seen by Alice, but not impossible the top was seen by her or anyone else. Again, mix and match. Maybe Lizzie mixed and matched all day?

[Susan]

Kat, your post made me wonder how many outfits Lizzie possibly had that were crossovers from the late 1880s? The silhouette is quite similar from 1889 to about 1892, so, some of her older dresses may have still been passable.

And wasn't the Bengaline outfit a glaring example of the mix and match thing, the skirt was a patterned silk while the bouse sounds like it was a plain colored sateen. I've always wondered about the soiled condition of the Bedford cord, I would imagine whether the skirt had a train, or dragged or even was a walking lenght that the inside hem must have just been grimed with dirt. Since it was on the inside of the hem where no one but the wearer could see, why would it make the skirt unwearable? Yes, there was also the paint spots or smears, but, the dress was servicable at least up until the day before the murders. Unless Lizzie was referring to ground-in dirt that was all over on the light colored Bedford cord that just wouldn't wash out?

[Kat]

I think the Bedford cord skirt was described as not being suitable for house wear because of the length. I think it was considered as a *going out* length, or street length.
It would be OK in the house, since it was considered to be a house dress, but I think the ruffle might be what made it too long. You'd think they would just remove the ruffle. It's like Lizzie thought she would grow an inch or somehing.
Anyway, the soiling of the hem area from normal wear would not make it unsuitable for the house, you're right. But my impression was that the paint stain would and the fact that it faded so soon would also.

On Wednesday, when Dr. Bowen came over in the morning to check on Andrew, he was pretty sure he saw the back of Lizzie hastening up the stairs. I always had an inkling it was because she did not feel dressed up enough to see him in her home that early. I wondered if she had been wearing the Bedford cord Wednesday and did not want to be seen it it. Didn't Bridget say Lizzie wore it the day before the murders, but she didn't wear it the day of the murders?

Here is Bridget's trial testimony. Sorry I don't have the page numbers in my broken out testimony:

Q. And do you know, if she was in the house, anything about what she did Tuesday?
A. No, sir; I do not.

Q. Do you remember anything about what dress she had on?
A. Yes; she generally wore a light ---

Q. No, not generally; what did she have on Tuesday?
A. I don't remember what she had on Tuesday; I can't tell.

Q. Do you remember anything about Wednesday, what dress she had on?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it?
A. It was a light blue.

Q. You say you don't remember Thursday?

MR.MOODY ---- Well, let her finish.

The WITNESS -- Wednesday morning she had a blue wrapper on her; skirt and basque.

Q, Now you say you do not remember on Thursday?
A. No, sir. I can't tell.

Q. Can't remember?
A. No, sir. I can't tell what dress the girl had on.

Q. Have you any recollection at all what dress she had on any part of Thursday?
A. No, sir, excepting the afternoon I went to her room and she had on a pink
wrapper.

Q. A pink wrapper in the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Before that you can't tell anything about it?
A. No, sir; I couldn't.

If Alice didn't see Lizzie in it since the spring when it was ruined with paint so soon after the making of it (how dissappointing that must have been, I always think!), and Lizzie ran upstairs in it (possibly) on Wednesday morning, then it seems possible Lizzie did not like to be seen in the Bedford cord, tho according to Emma, Lizzie wore it - maybe just around family members?

(Note: It is just my interpetation that Bridget is saying she saw Lizzie in the Bedford Cord Wednesday but not on Thursday).

Actually, I have a dress I like to wear that is a bit ripped. I don't go outside in it, but I do wear it around the house. I wouldn't want to be seen in it outside, but have been...

[RayS]

The dress testimony used to drive me crazy until I realized that some if not most of Lizzie's dresses were probably in 2 pieces. Skirt & blouses. Of similar colors and or patterns, or close enough to a man's eye at least.
So since the Bedford cord was so memorable because it was stained with paint and was too long that it dragged (not really suitable for indoor wear) and had a ruffle at the bottom, it's possible the skirt was not seen by Alice, but not impossible the top was seen by her or anyone else. Again, mix and match. Maybe Lizzie mixed and matched all day?

Only if you try to reconcile the irreconcilable. What did they mean? They're not around, and you can only guess on what they meant. No pictures or drawings.
The big picture is that there were no bloodstains on Lizzie or Bridget.
Hence no murder conviction of either.

Lizzie's Big Mistake was claiming credit for the laughter on the stairs. If she only said "I never heard anything" then she may have not been indicted. She put both feet in it.

[Susan]

Ray, Lizzie never claimed credit for the laughter upstairs, that was Bridget's doing, she said that it was Lizzie. Lizzie actually tried to claim that she was downstairs in the kitchen when her father was let in the front door.


Kat, wouldn't the street lenght or walking lenght skirt be slightly shorter to keep it from dragging on the street or sidewalks? I agree, the Bedford cord sounds all around like it was cheap dress made for wear around the house, but, it was fashionably made, almost too fancy in the cut for housewear. If this photo comes through okay its close to what I picture the Bedford cord skirt being like. Granted this is an underskirt and the ruffle at the bottom is probably too big as Emma described it as a narrow ruffle. But, it drags in the back, thats kind of what I've always pictured with the Bedford cord skirt.

[diana]

I agree, Susan -- about the street skirt having to be a little shorter. During a visit to our local history museum the other day, I watched a film tour of the city shot from the front of a street car in the early 1900's. There were still more horses and carriages than cars, and the streets were absolutely filthy!

This made me think about the condition of that front hall on 92 Second. Bridget claims she was responsible for that area but said she only swept it every second Friday! (Prelim., 172)

Did everyone just come in with their street shoes on, I wonder?

[Kat]

I am under the impression that a longer skirt length was for street wear although it would be more reasonable to assume otherwise. Maybe that idea came from a previous discussion?
Anyway, here is the description of the house dress being about 2 inches longer than Lizzie usually wore. I imagined the ruffle as adding to the length. I'm not an expert on 1892 fashion by any means. But am willing to provide testimony so it can be figured out.
Thank you for the pictures, Susan!

Emma
Trial
1538 / i560
. . .
Q. What kind of material was it as to cost? Do you know what the price of it was?
A. Very cheap.

Q. Do you know, have you any idea what it cost?
A. It was either 12-1/2 cents a yard or 15 cents.

Q. About how many yards do you think there were in it?
A. Not over eight or ten.

Q. In what way was it trimmed?
A. Trimmed with just a ruffle of the same around the bottom, a narrow ruffle.
. . .

Page 1539 / i561
. . .
Q. Where was the paint upon it?
A. I should say along the front and on one side toward the bottom and some on the wrong side of the skirt.
__________

Mrs. Raymond
Trial

Q. In what manner was it made?
A. It was made a blouse waist, and a full skirt, straight widths.

Q. How was it as to the sleeves?
A. The sleeves were full sleeves, large sleeves.

Q. How was it as to the length?
A. Longer than she usually had them.

Q. How did the length compare with those of the other dresses made for her at that time?
A. Well, I should certainly say it was a half a finger longer, two inches longer.

Q. Did you make a pink wrapper for her at this time?
A. I made a pink striped wrapper.

Q. Was this dress longer or shorter than that?
A. I should think longer.

Q. Now what was the material of which this Bedford cord was made?
A. Why it was a Bedford cord. That was the name

Page 1579

of the material.

Q. Well, I meant as to whether it was cotton or woolen or cheap goods?
A. It was cotton, a cheap cotton dress.

Q. Was it trimmed at all?
A. Trimmed with a ruffle around the bottom.

Q. A ruffle of what?
A. Of the same.

Q. Do you know whether at that time you were there they were painting the house or did paint the house?
A. They did paint the house at that time, yes, sir.

Q. Do you know anything about whether at that time there was any paint got upon the dress?
A. There was.

Q. How soon after it was made did Miss Lizzie begin to wear it?
A. Just as soon as it was finished.

Q. And how soon was it after that, as you recollect, that she got the paint upon it?
A. I can't tell you that, I don't remember.

Q. Was it while you were there?
A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. Was anything said about it by you at the time to her?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was the paint, if you recollect.
A. It was on the front of the dress and around the bottom of the dress, around the ruffle, on the underneath part of the hem.

Q. Did she wear the dress more or less all the time you were there?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember anything about the wearing of it?
A. Well, it either faded or the color wore off, I can't tell you

Page 1580

which. It changed color.

[Susan]

Hi Diana, long time no read. You know, your post made me wonder if the Bordens had one of those bootscrape things on their front stoop or a boot bristle to clean their shoes before entering the house? I keep thinking about all that horse manure that must have just been everywhere!


Kat, I just had a thought about the longer Bedford cord dress, don't know if we've touched on this in the past or not? Maybe Lizzie had just bought a new pair of boots or shoes that had a higher heel that she intended for indoor use? The highest heel that I've seen listed so far in use in the 1890s on ladies boots was 2 1/2". Higher heel, longer hem? I don't recall if they gave the length of the pink and white stripe wrapper, or for that matter, any other dresses that were made by the dressmaker at that time? Hmmm, just found that the Bedford cord was longer than the pink and white wrapper from Mary Raymond's testimony, but, no other dresses listed as to lenght. I just looked through Emma's trial testimony on the Bedford cord and found this, interesting the wording, not dragged, but touched:

pg 1574

Q. And you said it was dirty?
A. Very.

Q. What sort of dirt was on it?
A. Just as any dress would get soiled; it was light and touched the floor or ground in walking.

[diana]

I hadn't thought of boot scrapers or a boot-bristle at the door, Susan -- but I bet you're right!

That manure was so evident in that film I watched -- and the women's skirts were dragged through the debris.

You think about people mostly walking on the sidewalks -- but of course they had to cross the streets. And in those days, there were no pedestrian traffic regulations about crossing at a corner etc. People just traipsed across the road willy-nilly avoiding the slow-moving vehicles.

[RayS]

I hadn't thought of boot scrapers or a boot-bristle at the door, Susan -- but I bet you're right!

That manure was so evident in that film I watched -- and the women's skirts were dragged through the debris.

You think about people mostly walking on the sidewalks -- but of course they had to cross the streets. And in those days, there were no pedestrian traffic regulations about crossing at a corner etc. People just traipsed across the road willy-nilly avoiding the slow-moving vehicles.

I read that women had "steet dresses" whose hems went down to the ankle for this very reason.
In New York city (and elsewhere) they had Crossing-Sweepers whose job it was to keep the crosswalks clean of horse droppings.
But when it rained the result was "mud", liquified manure.
I read a book about 19th century London that made this clear.

[Kat]

So is the point being made that women's street clothing was necessarilly adapted to keeping hems from getting soiled? Because I was under the impression that fashion dictated street lengths, not necessity. If you were *well-heeled* you did not seem to care if your hem dragged in the muck because (supposedly) your servants or dresser would take care of that.
I may be wrong. I don't know- as I say- I was under that impression. I thought I read about that here- maybe while Edisto was around?
If fashion accomodated the filthy streets then I'd be glad to be set straight.

[Susan]

Hmmm, perhaps Lizzie didn't consult the spring edition of Harpers Bazaar? I found this:

New York Fashions
Spring Skirts and Tailored Costumes
(Harpers Bazaar, March 1892)

London Tailor Gowns

English tailors are again making a praiseworthy protest against long skirts -"scavenger skirts", they call them- for street dresses to be worn in spring. The skirt they commend escapes the ground, but is made as long as is possible without touching. It is also fuller than the present scant skirt, the seams in the back and of the front gore being less sloped toward the top.

From this site: http://www.tudorlinks.com/treasury/arti ... ngcos.html

So, perhaps the trend before spring 1892 was for skirts to be long and drag for fashion sake until practicality took over?

[Airmid]

But the Bedford Cord was a morning dress, not a street dress, wasn't it? And the pink wrapper, which was apparently not a morning dress, was shorter. So I guess Lizzie was not guilty in this case :)

Airmid.

[Susan]

Yes, Annemiek, the Bedford cord dress was considered a morning or house dress. I believe that the pink and white stripe wrapper was also considered a morning dress or house dress also though, hence the name "wrapper".

Online definition of wrapper: "negligee, neglige, peignoir, housecoat

a loose dressing gown for women"

So, I think the Bedford cord would also be considered a wrapper. From what I recall reading about them, though a structured garment, they were usually looser fitting and some were made to be worn without a corset on. And yes, Lizzie wasn't guilty of making a fashion faux pas with the longer Bedford cord, so no Harpers fashion police for her.

[Yooper]

Is a wrapper any easier than a street dress to put on or remove? I'm thinking specifically about the time involved.

[Kat]

I think it probably is easier, but I'm guessing from old pictures.
I mean, Lizzie did get into the wrapper herself, and I don't think it took too long, but it might have taken longer to get out of the other dress first. Alice was downstairs for a bit- maybe we can guess about 5 or 6 minutes?

We had/have some good examples of the clothing hereabouts at one point. Sorry I can't point you to it.
Maybe someone will come up with another link?

[Airmid]

Here's a dress that would fit the description too. The original caption of the picture reads "This is a wonderful c. 1890s dress with hat, in striped blue, white and red cotton", and it's a (restored) original dress. No other information about it, alas.

Link to the page is http://www.verymerryseamstress.com/restored.htm

Airmid.

[Yooper]

How does a wrapper fasten? I imagine with buttons of some sort, but are there fewer of them or are they easier to reach than on a street dress?

[Audrey]

Could the wrapper have buttoned up in the front versus the back?

[diana]

I went back to Police Captain Philip Harrington's description of the pink wrapper at trial to see if there were any clues there as to where it buttoned -- but alas, no.

He is asked about interviewing her in her bedroom...

"Q. Did you notice at that time what dress she had on---what sort of a dress she had on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you describe it?
A. It was a house wrap, a striped house wrap, with a pink and light stripe alternating; the pink the most prominent color. On the light ground stripe was a diamond figure formed by narrow stripes, some of which ran diagonally or bias to the stripe and others parallel with it.
Q. It was a loose house wrapper?
A. Well, the sides were tailor fitting, or fitted to the form. The front from the waist to the neck was loose and in folds. The collar was standing, plaited on the sides and closely shirred in front. On either side, directly over the hips, was caught a narrow bright red ribbon, perhaps three-fourths of an inch or an inch in width. This was brought around front, tied in a bow, and allowed to drop, with the ends hanging a little below the bow. It was out in semi-train or bell skirt, which the ladies were wearing that season." (Trial, 565+)

I'm guessing some of those jury members felt a little out of their depth right about then.....

[Susan]

How does a wrapper fasten? I imagine with buttons of some sort, but are there fewer of them or are they easier to reach than on a street dress?

Jeffery, I was checking through my Victorian fashion pattern books to see if I could find an answer for you. From what I can see, for your standard 2 piece wrapper like Lizzie's Bedford cord, theres approximately 7 buttons down the front of the blouse waist. But, thats if buttons are used, if not, then there would be approximately the same amount of hooks and eyes down the front. This amount of closures depends on the wearer's bust size. And, if blouse was for a young miss instead of lady like Lizzie, the buttons might be up the back. This seems to be consistent with a blouse waist for a street dress also. The skirts of the day close with a couple of hooks and eyes at the waistband, but, it seems to be up to the discretion of the dressmaker whether the skirt closes at center back or on the side. So, I believe that it would take about the same amount of time to put on either a two piece street dress or a two piece wrapper.

Then you get into street dresses like this one of Lizzie's:



It looks like she is wearing a blouse and jacket as well as matching skirt. Most garments like this top are actually one piece, a jacket with a false blouse front. The blouse front is sewed in on one side and the other attaches to the jacket with a couple of hooks and eyes at the shoulder and another 3 or 4 hooks and eyes from under the arm down.

I wish I had a scanner to show some of the illustrations in these books, why I even found a pattern for a man's Prince Albert jacket!

[Yooper]

Thank you, Susan, that's what I was looking for. It doesn't sound like it would take much more time for a woman to get into one of those dresses than for a man to put on a shirt and a pair of pants. The time element for Lizzie to have changed clothing after Andrew's murder has always seemed to suggest her innocence. I don't know what to make of the blood spatter in either murder, it seems minimal given the ferocity of the attacks.

In the case of Andrew's murder, it seems to be directed toward the wall, which suggests to me that the hatchet was inclined toward the wall while the blows were being struck. It seems to follow an arc pattern with very little spatter to the sides of the hatchet swing, and none toward the center of the sitting room. My guess is that most of the blood came from the hatchet while it was being swung in an arc.

In the case of Abby's murder, there was very little blood spatter, except the for pool beneath her head, and she was struck almost twice as many blows as Andrew.

I'm wondering if we may be expecting too much in the way of blood spatter on clothing. I think an apron might have covered Lizzie well enough to avoid blood spattered clothing, and it could have been burned easier and more quickly than an entire dress. The only problem is the sleeves of the dress, if a dress was worn.

[Yooper]

What information do we have about Bridget's first instinct upon discovering Abby's body? Until then Andrew's murder might have seemed to her an isolated incident, but when she and Mrs. Churchill found Abby perhaps the wheels started turning. Bridget's perspective seems to indicate that she dealt with Andrew's murder as a random occurrence up to a point. She willingly ran for help and offered to look for Abby at Mrs. Whitehead's house if she could have gotten the address; she seemed to do what she could to help. After Abby was discovered, it seems she couldn't wait to remove herself from the Borden household, something she was disinclined to do previous to that.

[Shelley]

That is an excellent observation- and one which has never occured to me. I thought Bridget was pretty brave to have gone into the guest room when she and Mrs. Churchill first spied the body. One could conjecture that the murder of Mr. Borden might have been explained in her mind as an attempted burglary gone wrong or revenge by an irrate business enemy. But after realizing Abby would have had no such reason to be murdered- well, another more sinister light might have dawned in Bridget's mind as to how the murders were related. I like it! It sure offers one good explanation for her haste in fleeing that place.

[Angel]

Boy, seeing the above picture blown up so large makes me get the shivers all over again, seeing those eyes. I got the same weird vibes when I worked for the Red Cross several years ago and met one of the volunteers who used to come in and hand out cookies at the bloodmobiles. I asked one of my co-workers if the man reminded her of Norman Bates from "Psycho." She said that he did and we both were creeped out. About a year later he was arrested- turned out to be a serial killer who killed a little girl in Virginia and a young woman in Maryland in very bizzare ways. He said he had killed others but no one else was ever found. He's now locked up in prison for the criminally insane.

[Shelley]

Stefanie pointed out at the excellent Fall River Library lecture recently that of the known eight photos, this is the only one where Lizzie looks straight out at you. We have this same Newport/Covell house photo in the cellar of the house, it is the last thing seen as you go back up the stairs to the kitchen and more than one guest has observed that she looks like the cat that swallowed the canary, smug, self-satisfied, and a little defiant.

[Harry]

Do we know who took that photo?

It's the only known non-studio photo, at least that was published, of her. With personal cameras being relatively new at the time (1893) it seems fairly well done.

Looking how bright the background is she may have been looking towards the direction of the sun which may effect the expression on her face.

[Angel]

more than one guest has observed that she looks like the cat that swallowed the canary, smug, self-satisfied, and a little defiant.

Boy, ain't that the truth!

[RayS]

more than one guest has observed that she looks like the cat that swallowed the canary, smug, self-satisfied, and a little defiant.

Boy, ain't that the truth!

This truth seems to be in the eyes of the beholder.
What would you say if you didn't know who it was?
I would say she looks happy and satisfied.

[shakiboo]

I think she looks tired and worn out, and older then her 32? 33? years.

[shakiboo]

she is however looking right straight into the eye of the camera!

[Shelley]

"I would say she looks happy and satisfied."

Oh yes indeed Ray- at last we agree on something. One wonders just why she is of course.

[snokkums]

Why would Lizzie's first instinct upon finding her father dead be to call for the maid? After the arrival of others, Lizzie mentions that she thought she heard Abby return and she requests that a search be made for her. If she thought Abby was in the house, why not call for Abby? I realize that Lizzie and Abby were at odds, but Lizzie certainly couldn't have kept Andrew's death a secret from Abby for very long, for whatever that might accomplish. Ignoring Abby's possible presence in the house under the circumstances seems completely unreasonable. If she thought Abby had been killed, why would she assume that Bridget was still alive? If she thought Abby was still out on her call, why not send someone after her? The thought never occurred to Lizzie for some reason. Even if Lizzie didn't call out for Abby, the fact that Abby didn't come running when she called Bridget indicates that Abby was either out of the house or dead, but Lizzie thought Abby had returned. At that point, how did Lizzie know that Bridget wouldn't come downstairs carrying a bloody hatchet with mayhem on her mind?

Maybe she thought that Abby was still out. She said that she thought that Abby was out. I think she might have seen Bridget in and out of the house so she knew that the maid was still alive, besides, she trusted the maid, and didn't like Abby.

[Shelley]

Some good points to consider. I was always perplexed as to why Lizzie did not take the 10 steps to the front door, open it and scream blue murder. It was a busy street. Why did she call for Bridget- the maid could as well have been dead too and the murderer in the house still! Then to send out the only living person to get help while staying inside alone defies usual behavior and common sense. I would have gone with Bridget across the street, or gone for a neighbor while Bridget was getting help. And why on earth Alice Russell when the police station was only about one more block away? If it had not been for Mrs. Churchill, I wonder when the call would have gone in to the police. I also wonder why Lizzie was never questioned about why she sent for Alice Russell. My first question would have been, "Why did you not send for the police immediately when you found your father?"

I know people handle crises in different ways, delayed reaction and shock, etc., but I never thought Lizzie's behavior was typical of Victorian women at the time-nor for that matter, contemporary women now. And of course, I believe she knew there was no need to yell for Abby. . . .

[Yooper]

I agree, calling out to Bridget was an act of very intense faith or stupidity. If Lizzie was innocent, she didn't know who would come down the stairs, or up the basement stairs for that matter. Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby return and Abby didn't come running as a result of her (Lizzie's) hollering for Bridget. Why would an innocent person presume that anyone left alive in the house was also innocent?

[shakiboo]

Its true no two people re-act the same to any given crisis, and then too, we are dealing with a woman who isn't even your typical victorian woman, or at least I'd hope not, even Lizzies friends weren't surprised by the way she was acting, they described her as self-contained, not given to any outward showing of her emotions. but here she is (if innocent), dealing with something she'd never had to deal with, so what does she do when forced to deal with this hideous ugly crime? She had to be scared out of her wits, so she call's for the maid, (who is the one to clean up any unsavory mess.) sends her for her doctor, who is also a friend, who is or should be more able to deal with such a thing, and another friend needed for support, and then goes to the back door to avoid any unwanted attention (must keep any unsavory things private, hidden, not make a public scene) To the back door where if she has to make a run for it she can get out. she's apparently visable or Mrs. Churchill would not have seen her, and seen enough of her to immediatly know something is wrong. And call's for her to come over to her, Mrs Churchill didn't take her by the arm and lead her away to safety, she went right into the house with her! And knowing someone had been killed inside, so she didn't worry about some mad man lurking inside either. We of course would, we've seen to many t.v shows depicting just such a thing, we'd know to get the hell out of there. call 911 get the police. But look how all the other people handled the police, most didn't even want to talk to them, and some down right refused to talk with them. I think she (Lizzie), was just completely at a loss as to what to do. and helpless. She called for the ones she thought could help, and who she trusted. She didn't give much thought to it, she just re-acted.

[Shelley]

Good reasoning! Okay- I'll buy all that too- either way sounds plausible doesn't it? No wonder we are all still scratching our heads 114 years later.

[RayS]

"I would say she looks happy and satisfied."

Oh yes indeed Ray- at last we agree on something. One wonders just why she is of course.

She has survived the ordeal of a lifetime.

[RayS]

I agree, calling out to Bridget was an act of very intense faith or stupidity. If Lizzie was innocent, she didn't know who would come down the stairs, or up the basement stairs for that matter. Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby return and Abby didn't come running as a result of her (Lizzie's) hollering for Bridget. Why would an innocent person presume that anyone left alive in the house was also innocent?

Have you answered your own question?
Lizzie may have acted out of surprise and panic, calling the one person she expected to be alive. We know she talked to Mrs. Churchill in the Buffington house, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police.
You should make a timeline to correlate everyone's activies, not make assumptions.
Corrected according to advice.
Wasn't Mrs Churchill the daughter of Mrs Buffington, the wife of the former mayor?

[Shelley]

"Mrs. Buffington, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police. "

I never heard that before. Who is Mrs. Buffinton? Maybe you mean Mrs. Churchill who lived in the old Buffinton house. I have actually made a timeline- and in my persusal of documents,, witness statements actually, Mrs. Churchill went across the street to the livery where Tom Bowles was standing (cleaning a carriage I believe) and told him about the situation. Mr. John Cunningham, who was passing, then went to the wallpaper store at the end of Second Street where there was a telephone and called newspapers first, then made the much-needed call to the police station. If this is incorrect, I would like to see the documented correction -as this is the story I have been repeating for 15 years and should like to get it right.

[RayS]

"Mrs. Buffington, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police. "

I never heard that before. Who is Mrs. Buffinton? Maybe you mean Mrs. Churchill who lived in the old Buffinton house. I have actually made a timeline- and in my persusal of documents,, witness statements actually, Mrs. Churchill went across the street to the livery where Tom Bowles was standing (cleaning a carriage I believe) and told him about the situation. Mr. John Cunningham, who was passing, then went to the wallpaper store at the end of Second Street where there was a telephone and called newspapers first, then made the much-needed call to the police station. If this is incorrect, I would like to see the documented correction -as this is the story I have been repeating for 15 years and should like to get it right.

That sounds quite excellent! I know of no book that tried to establish such a long timeline. David Kent only did it for the time after Andy returned home for Lizzie's actions.
Will you publish that on this site?

[snokkums]

Boy, seeing the above picture blown up so large makes me get the shivers all over again, seeing those eyes. I got the same weird vibes when I worked for the Red Cross several years ago and met one of the volunteers who used to come in and hand out cookies at the bloodmobiles. I asked one of my co-workers if the man reminded her of Norman Bates from "Psycho." She said that he did and we both were creeped out. About a year later he was arrested- turned out to be a serial killer who killed a little girl in Virginia and a young woman in Maryland in very bizzare ways. He said he had killed others but no one else was ever found. He's now locked up in prison for the criminally insane.

I know what you mean about those eyes of Lizzie. They are creepy-looking.

[snokkums]

Some good points to consider. I was always perplexed as to why Lizzie did not take the 10 steps to the front door, open it and scream blue murder. It was a busy street. Why did she call for Bridget- the maid could as well have been dead too and the murderer in the house still! Then to send out the only living person to get help while staying inside alone defies usual behavior and common sense. I would have gone with Bridget across the street, or gone for a neighbor while Bridget was getting help. And why on earth Alice Russell when the police station was only about one more block away? If it had not been for Mrs. Churchill, I wonder when the call would have gone in to the police. I also wonder why Lizzie was never questioned about why she sent for Alice Russell. My first question would have been, "Why did you not send for the police immediately when you found your father?"

I have to wonder to why she would call for Bridget if someone else did it. First, the person could still be in the house, and you are right, all she had to do is walk ten steps to the front door, and scream all kind of crazy. Makes you wonder just how innocent she was.

I know people handle crises in different ways, delayed reaction and shock, etc., but I never thought Lizzie's behavior was typical of Victorian women at the time-nor for that matter, contemporary women now. And of course, I believe she knew there was no need to yell for Abby. . . .

[shakiboo]

One reason she went to the backdoor and not out the front, she had just come in the back door and didn't see anyone, (safe) and going out the front door even just 10 steps would have meant going in nearer to her dad, and into an area that she couldn't have been sure about (not safe) she called up to Bridget which was actually on her way to the backdoor (isn't that right?) and that's where she let Bridget out to go get the Dr.