It was stated that the Grand Jury was not allowed to hear damaging material, but I suggest that they were allowed to hear very damaging material. They heard about the robbery at the Borden house and were supposedly directed to believe that Andrew knew that Lizzie had done it and called off the police after that. That's just an example. But that is where that story comes from. It was a *leak* out of the Grand Jury. Among other things. Another leak- in the newspapers, was that Bridget had said something to the effect that a lot of hot water that had been on the stovethat morning had dwindled and she did not know how or why. etc.
But these are newspaper items, about secret testimony so to be taken with a grain of salt. But they did eventually hear of the dress-burning incident- so to state they were not allowed to hear things that were *damaging* is contradicted.
Why call the doctor and Mrs. Russell first? Why not the cops
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Kat
- Posts: 14768
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As to Alice's relationship to the girls- whether she was Emma's friend or Lizzie's- and whether Alice did church work with Lizzie:
Emma at the trial:
Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.
Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.
Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.
Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all.
Page 1571 / i593
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Alice at the Inquest:
Q. Do you recollect the last time you visited them?
A. The last time I visited them, or visited there?
Q. Either one.
147
A. I went in there, I am sure, once after Emma had gone to Fairhaven.
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont think there was very much difference.
Emma at the trial:
Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.
Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.
Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.
Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all.
Page 1571 / i593
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Alice at the Inquest:
Q. Do you recollect the last time you visited them?
A. The last time I visited them, or visited there?
Q. Either one.
147
A. I went in there, I am sure, once after Emma had gone to Fairhaven.
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont think there was very much difference.
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Kat
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Here is Mr. Cunningham at the Preliminary Hearing.
He talks about overhearing what Mrs. Churchill had to say when she crossed the street to find her Tom. She didn't direct Cunningham to get help. He took the initiative himself. Sorry it's so long, but I thought I had better include the confusing part as it was resolved. I didn't include the remainder.
JOHN CUNNINGHAM.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. John Cunningham.
Q. What is your business?
A. News dealer.
Q. Did you hear of this affair that morning?
A. Well, I had occasion to be on Borden street----
Q. I wish you would answer my question, and save time. Did you hear of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you when you heard of it?
A. At the front of Mr. Hall’s place of business on Second street.
Q. How far is that from the house of Mr. Borden, when he was alive?
A. Four houses on the opposite side, on the west side of Second street.
Q. Four houses nearer City Hall, on the other side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. From whom did you hear it? I do not ask you what you heard.
A. The first information I got, I noticed there were four or five men standing on the west side of Second street. What called my attention, I noticed a lady running across the street.
Q. Who was that?
A. The lady’s name was Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Is it the Mrs. Churchill who is here somewhere? You know Mrs. Churchill, do you? Will you stand up Mrs. Churchill? She is not here.
A. She was here yesterday.
Q. It was the one that was here yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her running across the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I stood on the sidewalk. It called my attention; her actions were rather peculiar for a lady.
Q. Did you telephone at any time?
A. I stood on the sidewalk for a few moments, and these four or five men were standing there. There was a young boy about 17 years old there. He walked towards me and said that Mrs. Churchill wanted a policeman, and was speaking to these men, calling on them to get a policeman.
(Objected to.)
Q. Did you telephone?
Page 216
A. When this boy told me they did not put themselves out, I stepped into the paint shop and telephoned to the City Marshal.
Q. Was it a short or a long time after you saw Mrs. Churchill running before you telephoned?
A. I think two or three minutes.
Q. Did you talk with the City Marshal?
A. I did sir, a few words.
Q. Do you know what time it was, yourself?
A. In the paint shop there was a clock right over the telephone, looking at that clock, by that clock it was ten minutes to eleven.
Q. To eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you telephone to the city marshal more than once?
A. I do not think I did.
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Who were these parties standing there talking, do you know?
A. I recognized one as Mr. Hall, the horse dealer.
Q. Do you know Alec Coggeshall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was he one?
A. I did not notice him there. I know two others by sight; they work in the barn where Mr. Hall keeps his horses.
Q. Do you know Tom Bowles?
A. That keeps the meat market?
Q. No, that works up around the Buffington house?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do after you telephoned to the marshal?
A. I telephoned to the Fall River Globe, to Mr. Kennedy.
Q. From the same place, before you went out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I went up stairs over the paint shop on some business.
Q. What were you doing at the time when you saw Mrs. Churchill, as you think it was, run across the street?
A. I was going up to Bernie Wade’s store on some business.
Q. Where is that?
A. Next to Mr. Kelly’s house.
Q. The second house south of the Borden house on the same side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which side of Second street were you on when you saw Mrs. Churchill?
A. I was on the east side.
Q. Where did she come from?
A. She came from the east side.
Q. Do you know where her house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The old Mayor Buffington house?
Page 217
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You know where the Borden house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And where Dr. Bowen’s house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Southward Miller’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dr. Bowen’s and Southward Miller’s are in the same house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where with reference to those three houses did this woman you saw come across the street, come from?
A. I should think she came out of her own house. I saw her just as she stepped from the sidewalk to go across the road.
Q. Did she go across the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where did she go to?
A. Down to Mr. Hall’s place where these three or four men were standing.
Q. Then what did she do?
A. She commenced to talk to these gentlemen that were standing there.
Q. What did she do after that?
A. This young man was standing there, and then he told me about the affair.
Q. Did you cross over to where they were?
A. I was coming down on the same side, after coming from Mr. Wade’s store on the opposite side.
Q. I thought you said as you were going up the street you saw a woman you thought was Mrs. Churchill run across the street?
A. When I was going up on the east side, yes sir.
Q. About where were you when you saw that?
A. Where Mrs. Tripp keeps her restaurant, the next house.
Q. That is the next house to Mrs. Churchill’s, this side?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where were these three men, were they this side of Dr. Bowen’s house, or the other side?
A. This side.
Q. So Mrs. Churchill would go almost directly across the street from her house?
A. She would have to have come down sort of triangular, a little this way.
Q. After she went across there, did you go across?
A. No, I went up to Mr. Wade’s, and came down. When I came down she stood talking to these men.
Q. Then did you cross over?
A. When I came out of Mr. Wade’s store I did, to come down where they were on the west side.
Q. Was she there when you got there?
A. Yes sir, I passed them by and got by about three yards, and
Page 218
this boy was standing there, I found out his name since, it was Peirce, he was standing there, I stepped up to him, and he says to me---
Q. Was Mrs. Churchill still there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In consequence of what was said to you then, you went to the pain shop and telephoned?
A. Yes sir.
Q. By the telephone clock it was ten minutes to eleven?
A. By the paint shop clock over the telephone.
Q. What did you do after that, after you had telephoned to the Marshal, and to the Globe &c.?
A. I went up stairs over the paint shop on some business.
Q. When you came down what was the condition of things on the street?
A. There was not anybody going up or down, only these men stood there on the sidewalk, and kept looking at the house.
Q. You did not notice anybody on the street?
A. No sir, I stood up against the building, Mr. Gorman’s paint shop a few minutes, then I went in and telephoned to the Fall River Herald and the Fall River News. I stepped out and looked down the street, and saw Mr. Allen coming up.
Q. Police Officer Allen?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long should you think that was after you had telephoned?
A. That I saw Mr. Allen?
Q. Yes.
A. Perhaps it would be four or five minutes I should think.
Q. Not longer than that?
A. No sir.
He talks about overhearing what Mrs. Churchill had to say when she crossed the street to find her Tom. She didn't direct Cunningham to get help. He took the initiative himself. Sorry it's so long, but I thought I had better include the confusing part as it was resolved. I didn't include the remainder.
JOHN CUNNINGHAM.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. John Cunningham.
Q. What is your business?
A. News dealer.
Q. Did you hear of this affair that morning?
A. Well, I had occasion to be on Borden street----
Q. I wish you would answer my question, and save time. Did you hear of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you when you heard of it?
A. At the front of Mr. Hall’s place of business on Second street.
Q. How far is that from the house of Mr. Borden, when he was alive?
A. Four houses on the opposite side, on the west side of Second street.
Q. Four houses nearer City Hall, on the other side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. From whom did you hear it? I do not ask you what you heard.
A. The first information I got, I noticed there were four or five men standing on the west side of Second street. What called my attention, I noticed a lady running across the street.
Q. Who was that?
A. The lady’s name was Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Is it the Mrs. Churchill who is here somewhere? You know Mrs. Churchill, do you? Will you stand up Mrs. Churchill? She is not here.
A. She was here yesterday.
Q. It was the one that was here yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her running across the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I stood on the sidewalk. It called my attention; her actions were rather peculiar for a lady.
Q. Did you telephone at any time?
A. I stood on the sidewalk for a few moments, and these four or five men were standing there. There was a young boy about 17 years old there. He walked towards me and said that Mrs. Churchill wanted a policeman, and was speaking to these men, calling on them to get a policeman.
(Objected to.)
Q. Did you telephone?
Page 216
A. When this boy told me they did not put themselves out, I stepped into the paint shop and telephoned to the City Marshal.
Q. Was it a short or a long time after you saw Mrs. Churchill running before you telephoned?
A. I think two or three minutes.
Q. Did you talk with the City Marshal?
A. I did sir, a few words.
Q. Do you know what time it was, yourself?
A. In the paint shop there was a clock right over the telephone, looking at that clock, by that clock it was ten minutes to eleven.
Q. To eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you telephone to the city marshal more than once?
A. I do not think I did.
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Who were these parties standing there talking, do you know?
A. I recognized one as Mr. Hall, the horse dealer.
Q. Do you know Alec Coggeshall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was he one?
A. I did not notice him there. I know two others by sight; they work in the barn where Mr. Hall keeps his horses.
Q. Do you know Tom Bowles?
A. That keeps the meat market?
Q. No, that works up around the Buffington house?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do after you telephoned to the marshal?
A. I telephoned to the Fall River Globe, to Mr. Kennedy.
Q. From the same place, before you went out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I went up stairs over the paint shop on some business.
Q. What were you doing at the time when you saw Mrs. Churchill, as you think it was, run across the street?
A. I was going up to Bernie Wade’s store on some business.
Q. Where is that?
A. Next to Mr. Kelly’s house.
Q. The second house south of the Borden house on the same side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which side of Second street were you on when you saw Mrs. Churchill?
A. I was on the east side.
Q. Where did she come from?
A. She came from the east side.
Q. Do you know where her house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The old Mayor Buffington house?
Page 217
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You know where the Borden house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And where Dr. Bowen’s house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Southward Miller’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dr. Bowen’s and Southward Miller’s are in the same house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where with reference to those three houses did this woman you saw come across the street, come from?
A. I should think she came out of her own house. I saw her just as she stepped from the sidewalk to go across the road.
Q. Did she go across the street?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where did she go to?
A. Down to Mr. Hall’s place where these three or four men were standing.
Q. Then what did she do?
A. She commenced to talk to these gentlemen that were standing there.
Q. What did she do after that?
A. This young man was standing there, and then he told me about the affair.
Q. Did you cross over to where they were?
A. I was coming down on the same side, after coming from Mr. Wade’s store on the opposite side.
Q. I thought you said as you were going up the street you saw a woman you thought was Mrs. Churchill run across the street?
A. When I was going up on the east side, yes sir.
Q. About where were you when you saw that?
A. Where Mrs. Tripp keeps her restaurant, the next house.
Q. That is the next house to Mrs. Churchill’s, this side?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where were these three men, were they this side of Dr. Bowen’s house, or the other side?
A. This side.
Q. So Mrs. Churchill would go almost directly across the street from her house?
A. She would have to have come down sort of triangular, a little this way.
Q. After she went across there, did you go across?
A. No, I went up to Mr. Wade’s, and came down. When I came down she stood talking to these men.
Q. Then did you cross over?
A. When I came out of Mr. Wade’s store I did, to come down where they were on the west side.
Q. Was she there when you got there?
A. Yes sir, I passed them by and got by about three yards, and
Page 218
this boy was standing there, I found out his name since, it was Peirce, he was standing there, I stepped up to him, and he says to me---
Q. Was Mrs. Churchill still there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In consequence of what was said to you then, you went to the pain shop and telephoned?
A. Yes sir.
Q. By the telephone clock it was ten minutes to eleven?
A. By the paint shop clock over the telephone.
Q. What did you do after that, after you had telephoned to the Marshal, and to the Globe &c.?
A. I went up stairs over the paint shop on some business.
Q. When you came down what was the condition of things on the street?
A. There was not anybody going up or down, only these men stood there on the sidewalk, and kept looking at the house.
Q. You did not notice anybody on the street?
A. No sir, I stood up against the building, Mr. Gorman’s paint shop a few minutes, then I went in and telephoned to the Fall River Herald and the Fall River News. I stepped out and looked down the street, and saw Mr. Allen coming up.
Q. Police Officer Allen?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long should you think that was after you had telephoned?
A. That I saw Mr. Allen?
Q. Yes.
A. Perhaps it would be four or five minutes I should think.
Q. Not longer than that?
A. No sir.
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Kat
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Here are what Mrs. Dr. Bowen says about being asked to leave the Borden house tat forenoon, and what Dr. Bowen says.
Whatever you wish to read into this is up to you:
Preliminary Hearing
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
480
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q. Did you go into the house again that day?
A. I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.
________
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
119(26)
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
Whatever you wish to read into this is up to you:
Preliminary Hearing
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
480
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q. Did you go into the house again that day?
A. I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.
________
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
119(26)
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
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Yooper
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Other than laughter, what sort of a "sound" would be so inappropriate as to have Mrs. Bowen deemed unfit to stay and get her sent home?Kat @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:03 am wrote:Here are what Mrs. Dr. Bowen says about being asked to leave the Borden house tat forenoon, and what Dr. Bowen says.
Whatever you wish to read into this is up to you:
Preliminary Hearing
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
480
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q. Did you go into the house again that day?
A. I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.
________
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
119(26)
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
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SallyG
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- Contact:
I always assumed that Mrs. Bowen probably made a gasp, or some other sound of distress at hearing that Abby was dead. Not being fit to stay might have meant she was on the verge of hysterics, grief, etc. Dr. Bowen probably felt it was better that she went home and not be exposed to what was going on. She may have been a highly excitable person, etc. and he may have felt he had enough to deal with at the moment.Yooper @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:42 pm wrote:Other than laughter, what sort of a "sound" would be so inappropriate as to have Mrs. Bowen deemed unfit to stay and get her sent home?Kat @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:03 am wrote:Here are what Mrs. Dr. Bowen says about being asked to leave the Borden house tat forenoon, and what Dr. Bowen says.
Whatever you wish to read into this is up to you:
Preliminary Hearing
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
480
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q. Did you go into the house again that day?
A. I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.
________
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
119(26)
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
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Harry
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Along those same lines, SallyG, Mrs. Bowen fainted at the trial.
I always believed somewhat the same, that she said something excitable and they were afraid if she stayed she would have an effect on Lizzie.
I always believed somewhat the same, that she said something excitable and they were afraid if she stayed she would have an effect on Lizzie.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Kat
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snokkums
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That was bit of information that bothered me. Storing the bodies in the dining room on the table until Saturday. Wouldn't have the bodies really start to smell by then?Kat @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:43 am wrote:There was no autopsy on the dining room table. The bodies were stored in the dining room from Thursday late afternoon until Saturday morning's funeral service which was held in the sitting room.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Yooper
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That makes sense, if Mrs. Bowen was excitable or demonstrative in some way, she might have been sent home. Mrs. Churchill seemed to convey the news of Abby's death through body language to the group which prompted the question "is there another one?". She might have appeared shaken or agitated to the point of being unable to speak. I expect the news might elicit a gasp from anyone, perhaps it made Mrs. Bowen feel faint or ill.Harry @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:45 pm wrote:Along those same lines, SallyG, Mrs. Bowen fainted at the trial.
I always believed somewhat the same, that she said something excitable and they were afraid if she stayed she would have an effect on Lizzie.
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diana
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According to her neighbor, Charles Sawyer, who was one of the first on the scene: "When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I dont know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room." (Inquest Testimony)Yooper @ Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:06 pm wrote:What was Lizzie's reaction to the news that Abby was dead in the guest room?
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Yooper
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I wonder if that was before or after Lizzie's question about who had made the sound. Actually, this sounds more like it might have been Mrs. Bowen's reaction to the news.diana @ Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:16 pm wrote:According to her neighbor, Charles Sawyer, who was one of the first on the scene: "When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I dont know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room." (Inquest Testimony)Yooper @ Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:06 pm wrote:What was Lizzie's reaction to the news that Abby was dead in the guest room?
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Kat
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Thanks for finding that, Diana!
Snokkums, the bodies were not on the dining room table. They were on undertaker boards.
Who would put dead bodies on their dining table?
Back in those days, this stuff was taken care of in the home.
The Borden dining room could be closed off and not inconvenience ayone too much, because there were plenty of doors to get thru the other rooms downstairs without using the dining room.
I suppose the place settings were probably put away, finally.
The thing that seems odd to me is that the girls did not have the sevice on Saturday in the parlour. The parlour would be where the funeral should usually take place.
It's like Abbie was denied the use of her precious parlour.
Snokkums, the bodies were not on the dining room table. They were on undertaker boards.
Who would put dead bodies on their dining table?
Back in those days, this stuff was taken care of in the home.
The Borden dining room could be closed off and not inconvenience ayone too much, because there were plenty of doors to get thru the other rooms downstairs without using the dining room.
I suppose the place settings were probably put away, finally.
The thing that seems odd to me is that the girls did not have the sevice on Saturday in the parlour. The parlour would be where the funeral should usually take place.
It's like Abbie was denied the use of her precious parlour.