shakiboo @ Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:32 pm wrote:Holy Cow! I wonder why they never put stove and stick together to come up with hatchet handle? It was totally lost forever the first time anyone made tea and had to build a fire. I wonder when the stove was first used after that........You know it just fits together too good to not be right, then she decided to do away with the dress in the same way, and why not it worked so well the first time. Had she been a little more careful and not let Alice see her, no one would have ever known.
Was there a missing hatchet handle? Or is this just part of a legend?
How to build a coal fire (not done for about 57+ yrs).
You bunch up newspaper on the bottom of the stove.
Then put kindling over it and light the paper.
After the wood starts to burn well, put on a few coals to fire them.
After the coal starts to burn you can put more on for a regular coal fire.
There was a hatchet handle in the box where the HH was found. This information is probably what scuttled the whole trial: because the police could not agree.
At the summation of the trial, Robinson is giving his closing remarks. This is not testimony- but this is how the testimony was treated and translated to the jury:
Then there was some talk about a roll of burned paper in the stove, where Mr. Philip Harrington, I believe, was the
Page 1643
officer. He took off the cover and saw what he said looked like the embers of a rolled up piece of paper, burned. That is all. And there was some sort of dark insinuations here, floating around, they didn't clothe themselves in words---but there was something in the manner that meanly intimated that Dr. Bowen was doing something about it. Dr. Bowen! I suppose they don't make any allegation that he committed these murders, or helped, or helped to cover up, or assisted in doing anything about it. When the evidence is heard it seems that Mr. Philip Harrington says that Dr. Bowen was throwing in some pieces of an old letter. The letter had nothing to do with these transactions, something about his own family matters, of no account. And Mr. Harrington---I think I am right in the name of the officer---when they were thrown in, saw some little piece of paper, rolled up paper, about an inch in diameter, that had been rolled up and was lying there, the embers of it, and there was a small, low fire.
Well, we thought the handle was in there. We thought that was the plan, that the Government possessed itself with the idea that that handle was rolled up by the defendant in a piece of paper and put down in there to burn, and it had all burned up except the envelop of paper. Did you ever see such a funny fire in the world? What a funny fire that was! A hardwood stick inside the newspaper, and the hard wood stick would go out beyond recall, and the newspaper that
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lives forever would stay there! What a funny idea! What a theory that is!
And we wrestled with that proposition here, on the part of the defence, through weary nights, troubled about it, until Fleet and Mullaly got here together, and then we were relieved from our doubt. For the handle is in it and it is out of it. Fleet didn't see it and Mullaly did see it. Fleet didn't take it out of the box and Mullaly saw him do it. And it is in the box now, and they run over to Fall River to get it; or they wanted to, and can't get into our house, and explain about it. So we rather think that that handle is still flying in the air, a poor orphan handle without a hatchet, flying around somewhere. For heaven's sake, get the 125 policemen of Fall River, and chase it, till they can drive it in somewhere and hitch it up to its family belongings.
An even funnier fire is one in which a piece of paper is rolled up, thrown on embers, and still resembles a rolled-up sheet of paper after it has burned! Try it, I did. It ain't gonna happen.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Mrs. Churchill is supposed to have said (off the record) that she had seen something at the Borden house that day which she would never divulge. I wonder if she peeked in the stove.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
What would a rolled newspaper do in a fire?
What about the wrappers Lizzie was supposed to address? Maybe if she knew the elder folks wouldn't be needing them anymore, shortly, she burned those?
What would keep that rolled shape? I keep picturing cardboard? Like we use in the mail- a cardboard roll.
Anyway, regardless: anyone who goes to the trouble to experiment should be congratulated on their ingenuity! Good going!
I don't think we can discount the possibility that Lizzie (if one thinks she did it) got a mailorder hatchet from Sears! Andrew, one day that week, might have brought it home from the post office not knowing the contents of the box!
You'all can still have your handleless hatchet scenario- just probably not with the hatchet that is ensconced at the FRHS.
That way, no local sold it to her. And Sears probably wouldn't remember. But that is premeditation, big time. Or maybe she might order it to chop up the firewood for the party at Marion?
It may be what she wanted for her birthday!
I'll try the newspaper this evening, it might burn differently being more solid in cross section. Another consideration is that a hatchet handle might have been burned and it left no apparent form in the ashes. It would have taken 30-45 minutes to reduce a hatchet handle to ashes. It would have burned completely by 11:40-11:55. There would have been plenty of embers to start the wood, I've restarted fires from an ember the size of a fingernail. Whatever appeared as paper might have been thrown in separately. In any case, there was enough time to burn a hatchet handle before Harrington looked in the stove, regardless of what the ashes appeared to be.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Good for you, Yooper, in trying these experiments.
I remember "newpaper logs" being sold although I have never used them myself. I found this site which may be of interest. I thought it interesting that they said it would hold its shape better being bound with a wire. Assuming Lizzie used newspaper to cover herself would she know enough about rolling a newspaper log? A frugal Andrew might not have just thrown those Providence Journals away.
There were multiple hatchets and axes found at the Borden house, maybe there was one more old hatchet prior to 11:00 am. I can't imagine Bridget, Emma, or Uncle John remembering specific hatchets and axes, maybe no one missed it.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Harry @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:09 am wrote:Good for you, Yooper, in trying these experiments.
I remember "newpaper logs" being sold although I have never used them myself. I found this site which may be of interest. I thought it interesting that they said it would hold its shape better being bound with a wire. Assuming Lizzie used newspaper to cover herself would she know enough about rolling a newspaper log? A frugal Andrew might not have just thrown those Providence Journals away.
Thanks for the link, Harry, I'll try rolling the newspapers as suggested. The idea is to end up with something an inch or two in diameter with a retained shape after burning. Hopefully water will do as a blood substitute. It may take surprisingly little damp newspaper to retain its shape. I roll single sheets of newspaper up and twist them to start a fire, so I can understand that the Providence Journal would have had a bit of extra value for Andrew.
Harry @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:39 pm wrote:I gathered together from the primary documents Officer Harrington's testimony regarding what he saw in the stove. Harrington did not testify at the Inquest. They seemed preoccupied in not trying to insinuate Dr. Bowen did anything wrong. I note that the "cylindrical" description doesn't appear until the trial.
Witness statements, page 6 -
"Dr. Bowen had scraps of paper in his hand, on which there was some writing. He and I spoke about them, and he tried to put some of them together. He said “it is nothing, it is something about, I think, my daughter going through somewhere.” If I recollect correctly, it was addressed to Emma; but about that I am not sure. The Doctor then said “it does not amount to anything”, and taking the lid off the kitchen stove, he dropped the pieces in. There was very little fire in the stove, and the ashes which were on top looked as though paper had been burned there."
Ok, am I reading this right? Dr. Bowen had something in his hand addressed to Emma? I am assuming that this was a letter then and it was addressed to Emma Borden. I have a few questions:
Why would Dr. Bowen have in his hand a letter addressed to Emma?
Why would it be ripped up? Did he rip it up? If so, why?
If this note or letter was in his hand then why bother putting it together to see what it said wouldn't he have already known?
What's this about his daughter? Was she old enough to be writing to Emma? Or was she just mentioned in the letter and if so, why?
Dr. Bowen had sent a telegram to Emma with the news of the murders. His daughter was due to return home that day, but she hadn't arrived when expected.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:27 am wrote:Mrs. Churchill is supposed to have said (off the record) that she had seen something at the Borden house that day which she would never divulge. I wonder if she peeked in the stove.
THAT sounds like a "Legend of Lizzie" created to make gossip years after the event. I know this to be true, but I will never divulge the source.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Yooper @ Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:56 am wrote:I'll try the newspaper this evening, it might burn differently being more solid in cross section. Another consideration is that a hatchet handle might have been burned and it left no apparent form in the ashes. It would have taken 30-45 minutes to reduce a hatchet handle to ashes. It would have burned completely by 11:40-11:55. There would have been plenty of embers to start the wood, I've restarted fires from an ember the size of a fingernail. Whatever appeared as paper might have been thrown in separately. In any case, there was enough time to burn a hatchet handle before Harrington looked in the stove, regardless of what the ashes appeared to be.
Why not a multiple page roll of stiff writing paper, like they might have used for legal documents. Try regular typing paper (if they sell it).
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
We've already been reminded that the Mrs. Churchill *saying* about her tongue torn out was from a pretty unreliable source- McHenry - And it's hearsay.
Don't forget to include that, Ray, otherwise you're leaving out the *balanced* part of the explanation. Don't want too much rumor and innuendo. McHenry implies he did not hear this from George Wiley himself. You can check the last page of the Witness Statements, yourself, for context.
Witness Statements, 46:
"I also elicited the fact that one George Wiley, a clerk in the Troy Mill is the one who is authority for the statement that Mrs. Churchill made that she (Mrs. Churchill) said, that there was one thing she saw in the house the day of the murder, that she would never repeat, even if they tore her tongue out."
I remember "newpaper logs" being sold although I have never used them myself. I found this site which may be of interest. I thought it interesting that they said it would hold its shape better being bound with a wire. Assuming Lizzie used newspaper to cover herself would she know enough about rolling a newspaper log? A frugal Andrew might not have just thrown those Providence Journals away.
Right you are Harry. I actually own and have used a paper log roller before. The key is wetting the paper before you roll it, and it will retain its shape while it burns.
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Thanks everybody for the input! I didn't know there was such a thing a a newspaper roll until I asked about a rolled newspaper!
(Lived in Florida a long time!)
Interesting!
Now, that's a cool machine Eric! Thanks for posting it. I didn't know how the logs were made but I remembered seeing the finished product. Do you know how long such machines have been around?
There's no mention of the Bordens using newspaper logs, nor having such a machine, but the idea isn't an impossibility. It would have probably come up though at some point.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
After November 1973 this was often advertised in the magazines and newpapers. I never owne one (no wood burner) but some who tried this said it wasn't that great. Either they didn't follow directions, or it was another 'something for nothing' gadget.
Colored inks contained lead (then), and should never be burned.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
The Bordens didn't use their fireplaces either- they had radiators. But what about in the furnace? Can you use an alternate source of fuel in a coal-burning furnace or would that mess it up?
Maybe Andrew, on the way upstairs after bringing home the mail, burned the equivalent of *junk mail* in the stove?
Stop me if I'm wrong, but I don't think these newspaper log devices are true antiques. I haven't been able to find anything that would support this contention. There is one for sale on eBay ($9,00) presently - the seller calls it a "vintage" device. I emailed him and he placed the date of manufacture in the 1960's.
I would think newspaper logs would be used as fire starters, in an iron coal/wood stove, or in a fireplace. You wouldn't want to use them as the sole fuel in an open fireplace. Paper doesn't have the same pleasant aroma contained in wood logs.
I recall newspaper rollers from the late sixties and early seventies when I saw them advertised. I have never used one, but I imagine that a newspaper log would probably smolder as much as burn so it might not have the same effect as a wood fire. There may be chemical additives which would make the newspaper burn more like wood, but you get to the point where it is simply much easier to go cut a piece of wood rather than manufacture it!
In answer to Kat's question about alternative fuels in a coal stove, and with the CLEAR understanding that the principle is non-commutative, yes, you can generally burn wood in a coal stove, but NOT VICE VERSA. (I'm not shouting 'at' you, but 'to' you!) PLEASE, don't anyone try to burn coal in a stove designed for wood! Coal requires a larger amount of draft and modern wood stoves are designed to limit and focus draft. Coal emits an explosive gas which doesn't immediately burn if the draft is impeded or the embers are completely covered. When the first flame hits the unscavenged gas, KABOOM!
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Thanks!
Well, since The Bordens didn't even use the fireplaces, the only use I could think of for rolled newspapers would be their furnace. But I bet they had more use for the paper in their water closet!
Maybe it was junk mail after all in the stove?
This is Harrington who saw the rolled thing in the stove?
He's the same one who said that the shoes on Andrew were different from the ones in the photo. And he said *I don't like that girl.*
Hmmm..
Harrington was the officer who noted the roll of paper in the stove, and he noticed it somewhere near 12:30 the day of the murders. He made the "I don't like that girl" comment to the assistant marshal sometime in the afternoon while in the barn, I think. He became suspicious of Lizzie after having interviewed her in Alice Russell's presence. Whatever he saw in the stove had retained its shape after burning.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
The printing shop building adjacent to 92 Second Street has been razed and the land is now exposed. Has anyone given any thought to the possibiliy that "the hatchet" could be buried on this site? Would it be rusted beyod recognition? Would a metal dectector reveal its presence/
Kat @ Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:53 pm wrote:Thanks!
He's the same one who said that the shoes on Andrew were different from the ones in the photo. And he said *I don't like that girl.*
Hmmm..
Kat- I have never heard this, I always wondered about those shoes. Lizzie said she took them off, then he is photographed with them on and now they are supposedly different. There is some food for thought!!!
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
william @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:06 am wrote:The printing shop building adjacent to 92 Second Street has been razed and the land is now exposed. Has anyone given any thought to the possibiliy that "the hatchet" could be buried on this site? Would it be rusted beyod recognition? Would a metal dectector reveal its presence/
There may have been grading necessary when the print shop was built, I expect they used a concrete floor in the structure. I don't imagine the hatchet would have been buried too deeply, it could have been unearthed while the building was erected. If they weren't looking for a hatchet, it might have gone out with the topsoil. I expect a metal detector would reveal its presence.
I don't know how steel reacts to anaerobic conditions, it may retard deterioration. Oxygen is necessary to oxidize (rust) an object, so maybe in the relative absence of air it would remain intact. Wood is preserved best when buried. Wood fence posts deteriorate fastest at ground level. Pulling an old wooden fence post always shows the top of the post to be weathered, the ground-level area to be eaten away, and the buried section to be wet or damp, but well preserved.
If the oxygen bonds to the iron (Fe2+ or 3+), then 2 H+ (hydronium) remain, causing an acidic condition. I'll have to look up the reaction rates, its been a while since chemistry! The types of bonding (covalent or ionic) will play a part.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I'm not finding what I want in my archives concerning iron deterioration in water, but there's little doubt that water causes iron to rust. If I remember the sequence properly, the reaction runs in two stages depending on the amount of oxygen available. Fe(2+) + H20=>FeO + 2 H(+). This creates a black substance which is water soluble and when dissolved oxygen is introduced, the Fe(2+) is further ionized to Fe(3+) creating Fe2O3 which is the familiar red rust substance. We do need a fairly oxygen rich environment to drive the reaction to completion, however.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I have a notation as to what the gravesite at Oak Grove Cemetery is made of- but that of course is not the Borden yard.
Here it is anyway:
"Glacial Moraine" and "acidic."
That was when Prof. Starrs was poking around late 1991 and into 1992.
Kat @ Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:53 pm wrote:Thanks!
He's the same one who said that the shoes on Andrew were different from the ones in the photo. And he said *I don't like that girl.*
Hmmm..
Kat- I have never heard this, I always wondered about those shoes. Lizzie said she took them off, then he is photographed with them on and now they are supposedly different. There is some food for thought!!!
Trial
Harrington Q. Where did you go after you first entered the house?
A. I asked a question or two, and I was directed to a door on the west side of the kitchen. It was closed. I opened it and went into a room which was called the sitting room.
Q. Yes. And you discovered Mr. Borden's body there?
A. Yes, sir; on a sofa which rested on the north side of the house was the form of a man partially covered with a sheet, going from the head, the west end of the lounge, down a little below the knees. Below that black pants and a pair of laced shoes.
Q. Did you do anything, or simply see the body covered with the sheet?
A. I raised the sheet from the face and looked at it.
Q. From the appearance could you recognize the person who was there?
A. I could not, sir.
Q. You had known Mr. Borden?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long?
A. Well, I had known Mr. Borden for twenty or twenty-five years. I had worked for him for over three years at one time.
Q. Can you give any further description about the part of Mr. Borden's body which had been wounded and the blood which was
Page 559
about it?
A. The face was all cut and covered with blood. The clothes were stained, the shirt front and part of the coat.
.....
Q. You said, speaking of Mr. Borden as he was laid upon the sofa---did he have slippers on?
A. No, sir.
Q. What kind of boots did he have on?
A. He had a laced shoe.
Q. Do you mean a low shoe?
A. No, sir.
Page 578
Q. A laced high shoe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are pretty certain about that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It was not a congress boot?
A. No, sir.
Q. You know what I mean?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are certain about that. Have you ever seen the photograph of the body as it is presented here?
A. Not the photograph, no, sir.
Q. (Showing photograph to witness). Will you look at those shoes---your eyes are better than mine, but will you kindly tell us whether those are a correct representation?
A. Not as they impressed me, sir.
Q. Then, as you recall it, this is not correct?
A. As I recall it.
Q. Then seeing this, having this to refresh your recollection, do you change your statement?
A. No, sir.
Q. You leave it that he had on laced boots?
A. My impression was laced boots.
(Photograph shown to the jury).
Q. Well, that is merely a matter of recollection, I suppose on your part. You were not excited at that time?
A. Well, no, sir, I don't think I was.
Q. You had full possession of all your faculties?
A. Well, I thought so.
Q. All the time you were there, notwithstanding you had seen these horrible sights?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever see worse ones in your life?
A. No, sir.
Q. That did not shake you a particle?
A. Well, it disturbed me some, but I don't think I lost my reasoning faculties.
Page 579
Q. Or your perceptive faculties?
A. No, sir, I don't think I did.
Q. Well, now, you think you got that dress that Miss Lizzie had on all right?
A. I do think so, yes.
--Then he is asked to describe Lizzie's pink wrapper. It seems as if his recollection is being somewhat made fun of at this point. It starts because it seems he is saying the photo is wrong- not he.
Harrington was now a Captain, at the trial- maybe he was not used to having his word questioned?
Yes, Harrington was promoted from policeman to Captain after his testimony before the trial!!! Lawyer Jennings thoughfully drew the jury's attention to this event.
Aside from that, people often are mistaken in their memory.
I think Harrington testified that Andrew had lace-up shoes. Maybe he saw him that way so much that is what he remembered.
Thanks for posting that. It makes sense to me that if he was napping his shoes would have been off. This is kind of gruesome but you dont suppose that he was fixed up a tad for the police photograph?
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
bobarth @ Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:33 pm wrote:Thanks for posting that. It makes sense to me that if he was napping his shoes would have been off. This is kind of gruesome but you dont suppose that he was fixed up a tad for the police photograph?
No. Who would do that, and what motive would they have?
Did Andy have holey socks, so they slipped on those Congress gaiters?
We can only assume no one arranged the bodies for the photos.
I just tend to think Lizzie or those around her were trying to keep up appearances. Maybe he did have holey socks and good grief "WHAT would the neighbors think."
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
I think there is a valid explanation by the higher-ups.
Don't forget, they were also investigating the Bertha Manchester murder at the time coming up to the Borden trial.
Trial
PATRICK H. DOHERTY, Sworn
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Patrick H. Doherty?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are a member of the police force at Fall River?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have been so for how long?
A. A little over seven years.
Q. What is your present position upon the force?
A. Captain.
Q. In August of last year what was your position?
A. Special officer.
Q. Detailed for special work?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What sometimes is called inspector?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had no regular patrol duty to do at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where were you on August 4th last when you first obtained knowledge of the homicide?
A. In the station house.
Q. From whom did you receive your information?
A. From City Marshal Hilliard.
Q. That was the central police station, I suppose you mean?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you been sent for or were you there?
A. I was there.
Q. Before or after Mr. Allen had first gone?
A. After Mr. Allen.
Good going!
