Where did emma stay?

[Jeff]

I was wondering if Emma stayed at 92 Second street while Lizzie was in jail. I have never found anything about that. I don't think she would stay in that house all by herself after what had just happened. I highly doubt she stayed w/ Mrs. Churchill or the Bowens.

[bobarth]

Excellent question and when was it ok for her to clean up all the blood? Did she put down new carpet?
Did she buy new furniture to replace the couch?

[Kat]

Emma stayed in the house until Lizzie's acquittal.
She had Morse there for a while- then I think around early December he went west to check on his property.
She had a housekeeper there with her- Mrs. Baker??

I don't think she replaced the sofa right away, because during the trial I read the bloody sofa was returned to its place for the jury to see. That would be the second day of the trial, June 6th I believe?

[Jeff]

If Emma wasn't involved in the murders , I dont know how she could have stayed in that house. Most people i think would be so upset about
the murders and afraid the killer could still be in the area. This makes me think Emma knew something and thats why I think she went away to
fairhaven. I think she sensed Lizzie was going to snap and do something drastic

Bobarth, when are you staying at the house?? I live 5 minutes from there
and it would be really nice to meet another poster and Bordenphile .

[Kat]

There was a news item that said that Morse had been looking for another place for he and Emma to live temporarily. The place he finally found that was suitable ended up taken by someone else- maybe before Emma could decide. My sense was that he had made an effort- and then he left town, as I said, early December. So maybe he couldn't stand it there at Second Street anymore? And maybe Emma didn't want to spend the money to rent a place until the trial?

[Yooper]

It might be that Emma chose to stay on Second Street after Morse left just to have someone in the house. The house would have been a source of curiosity, and souvenir seekers might have torn the place apart.

[bobarth]

Bobarth, when are you staying at the house?? I live 5 minutes from there
and it would be really nice to meet another poster and Bordenphile .

Jeff would love to meet you. Me and BaAz5 (Barb) and another friend will be there the evening of April 13th (Friday the 13th) until April 17.

Five minutes away, you are one lucky guy!!!!

[bobarth]

I am wondering the condition of the house after the murders. Were the carpets torn up in spots? Did the house have to be treated like a crime scene up until the trial? I could not stay in a house were my parents had been brutally murdered. Money or no money I would be gone. You would think the police would have provided some protection for Emma and Uncle John from souvenir seekers. That is just creepy that those two stayed in that house.

[Jeff]

I know that Uncle JOhn had to be rescued from a mob after he went to get his mail at the post office. I am sure they must have torn the carpets
after the trial. Those stains must have been too tough to get out.

Bobarth, I am friends w/ Shelley and has my # and she works Fridays
so she can give me a call when you guys are in town. Heck, maybe I''l
spend the night!! I love hanging out with people who enjoy talking about the case. I really enjoyed my last stay at the house although it was slow.

[bobarth]

Jeff- That sounds awesome, we shall have a great time!! I can almost guarantee it wont be slow!!!
I am so excited, I may need a box of depends!!!!

[Kat]

I am wondering the condition of the house after the murders. Were the carpets torn up in spots? Did the house have to be treated like a crime scene up until the trial? I could not stay in a house were my parents had been brutally murdered. Money or no money I would be gone. You would think the police would have provided some protection for Emma and Uncle John from souvenir seekers. That is just creepy that those two stayed in that house.

Yes they took carpet from the guest room and little pieces of the wall and pieces of woodwork, etc. It wasn't treated like a crime scene tho- from the beginning! At least, you know what I mean...

For a short while there was a male caretaker there- at least those reporting it did not claim him to be Morse, and they would have known Morse by then. We don't know who that was.

This bit from the The Witness Statements implies there was damage done to a window from either police or private citizens:
44
Fall River, September 20, 1892. I this day visited the Borden house under instructions from the City Marshal. I saw Miss Emma Borden, and she went down cellar with me, and showed me a window in the northeast corner room nearest to the barn, and next north of the cellar door, which she wanted to have fastened up, and wanted me to note the condition that it was in before anything was done. I found one light of glass broke in the upper sash, the lower sash had the appearance of being pushed in, and raised up about five inches.

[BaAz5]

From the few things I have read about Emma, I assume she was shy and a bit of a recluse, it was possibly more "comfortable" for her to stay at the house than go elsewhere.


Hey Jeff, can't wait to meet you either, we are going to have a great time!

[snokkums]

If Emma wasn't involved in the murders , I dont know how she could have stayed in that house. Most people i think would be so upset about
the murders and afraid the killer could still be in the area. This makes me think Emma knew something and thats why I think she went away to
fairhaven. I think she sensed Lizzie was going to snap and do something drastic

Bobarth, when are you staying at the house?? I live 5 minutes from there
and it would be really nice to meet another poster and Bordenphile .

I have to agree with you. I wouldn't want to stay in a house where my parents were killed. And it doesn't make sense to me either that if she was that upset, why would she want to stay in the house?

[SteveS.]

My father died of cancer in his bed at his home at 1am. Within 1 hour of the body being removed my sister was changing the bed linens and when I asked her why she was doing it right then she answered I'm going to sleep in this bed tonight. If I dont do it now I never will be able to. She was inheriting the house. Personally I was mortified and left right then and there. I couldn't even return back into that bedroom where my father had died let alone sleep there. But everyone handles things differently. Maybe thats what Emma felt. She didn't know what the outcome of the trial was going to be and if she thought she was going to have to spend the rest of her life in that house she figured I'd just better get used to it.

[Allen]

When I was younger my best friend would babysit for this woman who lived near her on a regular basis. This woman's husband had shot himself in their livingroom with a shotgun. She remained in the house, and had all the walls in the livingroom repainted. She still lives in the house. I guess it's true different people handle things in different ways. It may seem kind of callous but even if Emma wasn't involved in the murders she may not have been too terribly upset by the deaths. Abby's at least. Or instead of thinking of it as a place where her parents died maybe she thought of it as a place where her father had lived. The constant police presence around the house in the beginning might have calmed her fears about any intruder getting in to finish her off. But I think she knew the real murderer was already in jail.

[snokkums]

I don't think that Emma was as upset as every one thought. I think she wanted her parents dead just as much as Lizze did. I think she just didn't have the balls to do it. Lizzie did. Either that, or that were in cuhuts with each other.

Most people in their right mind are not going to stay in a house right after a grusome murder. Those to women are so strange. LOL!!

[Yooper]

You may be right, snokkums, it almost seems as though Lizzie and Emma were a separate family, doesn't it? They seemed to have their own part of the house which was kept as separate as they could manage. They might as well have been staying at a boarding house or a hotel! It could be that whatever four person relationship existed before the Whitehead house incident degenerated into Lizzie & Emma vs Abbie & Andrew. I don't know if that would make it any easier to stay in the house after the murders, but it might, depending on the amount of animosity felt.

[Kat]

I was thinking about this *compartmentalization* of the house last night! Exactly!

When I last stayed there (my first overnight) my room was in the attic. I talked about this before- that I never went into the front part of the second floor.
My world was shrunk to the lower rooms and that back stair.
There seemed no reason to go up the front staircase. I imagine after a while Bridget would just kind of forget that other part of the house existed (Lizzie's & Emma's rooms and the guest room and the dress closet). I forgot and I was there for that very reason! It can be kept so separate, and seem so separate.
(I was pretty tired tho).

I'd get on those back stairs and momentum would get me to the third floor.

Have you visited the house Yooper and do you have any plans to?

[Kat]

Here is a picture of the rug cut out in the guest room. Someone wondered how large an area it would have been.
I don't know if the whole area was bloodied.
I think I heard this was then covered with a throw rug for a while? Where would I have read that- anyone heard of that?
Maybe it was in the newspaper.

[Yooper]

I was thinking about this *compartmentalization* of the house last night! Exactly!

When I last stayed there (my first overnight) my room was in the attic. I talked about this before- that I never went into the front part of the second floor.
My world was shrunk to the lower rooms and that back stair.
There seemed no reason to go up the front staircase. I imagine after a while Bridget would just kind of forget that other part of the house existed (Lizzie's & Emma's rooms and the guest room and the dress closet). I forgot and I was there for that very reason! It can be kept so separate, and seem so separate.
(I was pretty tired tho).

I'd get on those back stairs and momentum would get me to the third floor.

Have you visited the house Yooper and do you have any plans to?

That's an interesting observation, Kat, I wonder if Bridget might have felt more a part of Abby and Andrew's "family" than Lizzie and Emma's as a result of the same relative confinement? I imagine her world would not have included the second floor at all, so maybe that's a bit of a stretch.

I haven't visited the house, and have no immediate plans to do so, but I will eventually. I have to pick up a Grandfather clock in Pennsylvania one fine day, so that might be a good opportunity.

[Shelley]

The sofa was reupholstered I thought , almost right away? I seem to recall a newspaper article saying that crowds on the street were treated to the grisly sight of the black bloody sofa coming out the front door. I seem to remember the funeral director took it out, it was recovered, and held for evidence in New Bedford for the trial.

I think people were very used to death in the household- it was a fact of daily life. What would be unsettling for us now was routine for people in 1892. Naturally murder was something different than natural death, but I expect this was Emma's home after all.- all her things were there, and maybe the attorneys thought it would look sympathetic to have Emma, poor orphaned girl, loyally holding together the family homestead as her sister was put through the ordeal of jail and trial.

On the third floor, right in front of the Jennings and Knowlton rooms, there is a door cut into the ceiling for attic access. There is a brass sign there saying that 2 pigeons' skeletons were found up there during the 1995 renovations. There are no drop down stairs so one needs a ladder to get up in the attic which is only about 38 inchs high. Now it is filled with air conditioning pipes and tubing and one must crawl on hands and knees to poke around in it. No hatchet though......

[Kat]

Yes that's it , Yooper. That Bridget's world was not on the second floor at all.
Her world would be the back stairs and that would be the same stairs the master and mistress of the house used.
Those girls had the front door and the front stairs.
Bridget also had the cellar too, which those back stairs linked to. It's like a lifeline from cellar to attic, 4 floors. But no reason to stop at the second story, yes, that's it.

Well, the way you look at things, your observations at the house, first hand, would be interesting.

[Kat]

I can look around the newspapers as to what happened to the sofa if you'd like, Shell.

[bobarth]

Hey Kat: That was me that was wondering about the carpet being cut out. I never dreamed there would be an actual picture of it. Thanks!!!
Wonder how long they left the carpet like that before replacing it? Perhaps Emma and Uncle John just closed the door and ignored the guest room. Surely they replaced the rug before they sold the house and moved to Maplecroft?

[Jeff]

Yea, I imagine John and Emma kept that door shut. I don't think they would want to go in there after what happened to poor Abby

[Kat]

I think they put a throw rug there as I mentioned before. I don't think they would close up the room, for some reason.
Lizzie testified that she did not go in there until everyting was cleared up but who knows what that means!
But it had sounded to me that she had been in there before her arrest. Maybe not?

Bobbie- William supplied the photo!

Inquest
Lizzie
63(20)
Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning?
A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there, and the room had been overhauled.

[Kat]

Here is the Borden sofa story, by The Boston Globe, that I found during a search. It may not be all there is on the subject:

Boston Globe
The Boston Globe, Saturday, August 6, 1892 – 1, 4

HORROR’S FILL,

Long And Dreary Day
for Fall River.

...
At 5.35 the crowd outside were treated to a sensational repast, when the front door was opened and Undertaker Winward and his assistant bore out the sofa upon which Andrew J. Borden was lying when killed, to his wagon.

It is an old fashioned, low, hair-upholstered affair, with a pine frame recently varnished.

Evidence of the crime was plainly seen in a large blotch of blood near the head, which was discolored clear down to the cloth under the springs.

Its presence in the house in its significant condition has become an eyesore to the family, and Dr. Dolan's consent to its removal was obtained.

The undertaker stored it in a rear room of his building, where it will stay as long as it is required as evidence.
_______

Wednesday, June 7, 1893
"On Trial"
...
Under the direction of the police the sofa on which Mr. Borden was found after the murder, and which had been at the station ever since, was removed to the house in the forenoon and placed in the same position in which the police found it on that fatal day last August. [For the jury.]

It was undoubtedly the most interesting object in the house, for the stains of the blood from the many wounds of Mr. Borden are still plainly visible.
_________

Monday, June 26, 1893
"Not At Church"
...
That blood-stained sofa – the sofa on which Andrew J. Borden was killed – the sofa which was carted to court in New Bedford and carted back, has been occupying a conspicuous position in the guard room at the central police station. Yesterday it was removed to the Borden homestead.

[Kat]

There was this snippet from the Boston Globe of 22 June 1893 about the interior of the house:

"She [Lizzie] is in her old home in Fall River. The walls are denuded of paper in spots; some of the doors are mutilated, and the carpets are ruined for practical using purposes."
--By Howard

Since the rug under the head of the sitting room sofa was probably badly stained, I'd think they would have taken that part up as well.

[RayS]

If you think that made the house inhabitable, there were plenty of people then and now who exist w/o wallpaper or a rug on the floor.

[bobarth]

Kat- Great info, thanks!!!

That sounds perfectly awful for Emma.

[bobarth]

Rebello pg 587.

Wed August 10, 1892
The marble from the guest room bureau was also taken that day.

Rebello pg 518

Thomas Coggeshall, well known vagabond about the saloons, was taken to the Borden home on August 30, 1892, where he paraded with his arms up and down and was covered with a red substance. Five hundred people witnessed the incident. Mr. Coggeshall was arrested for disturbing the peace.

Never a dull moment at the Borden home.

Why in the world were there 500 people out front? That had to be unbearable for them and their neighbors. Wonder how long they received police protection and why did the police not break up the huge crowds?

[shakiboo]

Who took him there? And why?

[Harry]

Here's the story on Thomas Coggeshall as it appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard of August 30, 1892:

"A STUPID AND BRUTAL JOKE.

Drunken Bum Dyed Red and Placed
Before the Borden House.

[Special Dispatch]
Fall River, Aug. 30. --- About 1 o'clock this afternoon an incident of an intensely dramatic nature occurred. Thomas Coggeshall, a well-known bum about saloons, was caught by a crowd in the central resort. One of his hands and arms, his face, and what ought to have been the bosom of his shirt were covered with a dye substance, intensely fiery red, by some would-be joker. He was then steered out upon the street, piloted to the front of the Borden house, where he flourished his arm and promenaded up and down. A crowd of about five hundred people collected to gaze at him with horror, surprise, and a good measure of indignation. In the midst of his war dance Thomas was arrested for disturbing the peace, marched to and locked up in the Central Police Station, where he will have time to meditate upon the foolishness of his course. It was a stupid joke, and the only thing to be regretted about it is that the pains and penalties do not fall in equal measure upon the perpetrators as well as the victim."

This incident occurred while the Preliminary hearing was still going on, not that it had any influence.

[shakiboo]

Oh thanks Harry! That explains it! Some one sure had a cruel sense of humor........

[Kat]

That is interesting stuff you guys, thanks!

[RayS]

Rebello pg 587.
...
Why in the world were there 500 people out front? That had to be unbearable for them and their neighbors. Wonder how long they received police protection and why did the police not break up the huge crowds?

That could be the normal amount of people passing by or attracted by the commotion from a few dozen people. Ever see how many are attracted to a fire or police activity? Even the day after the fire?

So the accounts of many thronging the Borden house on 8/4/1892 are accurate.

[Kat]

An August 30th sordid prank doesn't seem to correlate with how many bystanders accumulated on Second Street on the 4th. I don't think that kind of leap is valid. Maybe you can find a better account?

[shakiboo]

It makes you wonder what kind of person or persons, could or would do such a thing. And what would be there reason? Whomever it was evidently wanted to give the people a show, to either scare them or entertain them. It would be interesting to know who had the drunk do it.

[Kat]

It reminds me of the Old Wild West.
Maybe these people had been drinking too?

[shakiboo]

Well, that's true too, it could have been a "boys night out" and they weren't thinking about what they were actually doing.

[Kat]

Was there liquor available readily in Fall River in 1892?
I was wondering what was *normal* back then at that time.
A drink at dinner? Or a dry county?

[Shelley]

I expect it depended if you were temperance and church-going. If you look at the arrest sheet in the newspapers- sounds like half the city was drunk. As you know, the Cogswell fountain was donated to the city by a visitor to the city, in order to encourage the drinking of water as there were so many people in the pubs. And I expect working those hours in the mill, drink was a welcomed escape for some. The fine bordeaux and clarets were for the mill owners up on the hill- and those maybe sipped in secret, away from the minister's eyes.

[Shelley]

Two views of the old fountain, rescued from the city dump by Florence Brigham and the FRHS. The good dentist was concerned for man and beast (see lower stone dogs bowls built into the bottom)and I also recall seeing a newspaper article about the lack of ice for this same fountain. Its last relocation is on North Main Street at Bedford- which I guess technically speaking is not quite North Main yet! . I was always told you have to cross Bedford before South Main becomes North Main.

[Kat]

Yes it does sound like that on the arrest sheet. Good source! Since another state is so close, I wasn't sure about 1892 "dry" or "wet" in Massachusetts itself.
People can carry flasks, make their own etc.

Is Bedford where Main Street changes? I was reading Caplain and my impession was around Bank Street it changed but I'm not sure about that either.

[Kat]

The arrest book of Lizzie

[Kat]

Offences listed on arrest record

[Shelley]

All the locals have told me the other side (north side) of Bedford begins North Main Street. Yes, I was amused to see that arrest book and marvel at the number of drunk and disorderly entries. The entire Temperance Movement was launched as the result of the heartrending effect alcohol had on the family: child neglect, spousal abuse, destitution, etc. , in all strata of society but most pitifully upon the very poor. "Taking the Pledge" , the White Ribbon Temperance Hymnal, and endless evangelizing by church-going men and women from the sidewalk soapbox to the pulpit condemning the evils of liquor finally culminated in America's Great Experiment- Prohibition.

If you have read about the Cornell case in Catherine William's Fall River: An Authentic Narrative, there is much about the drunken antics at so-called "Bible and Gospel preaching camps", where it could actually be dangerous for ladies attending alone at these revivals in the woods in tents, where predatory men, fired up with liquor could get pretty ugly. It was sometimes a cycle of drink-repent-and back to the pit. Bad things sometimes went on after dark to naive women and girls. Places like Chatauqua New York, among many such places, became a summer Bible study and culture colony which was safe, well-organized and offered charming little Victorian gingerbread-style bungalows for attendees. It is a facinating topic for study. Naturally the drink of preference was "Adam's Ale" (water) or Temperance Tea (lemonade). I have a book from the era of alcohol free recipes for punches, syllabubs and refreshing beverages. My granny used to sing "Give me water- water-/ water is the drink for me"

[Shelley]

Here is a good sampling of Temperance Songs- I particularly love "Lips that touch liquor will never touch mine" An excellent website link below about a theatrical production on the topic, but with good reference materials:



"The homes that were happy are ruined and gone.
The hearts that were merry are wretched and lone,
And lives full of promise of good things to come,
Are ruined and wreck'd by the Demon of Rum.
Wives, maidens and mothers, to you it is giv'n,
To rescue the fallen and point them to heav'n.
With us for your guides you shall win by this sign,
The lips that touch liquor shall never touch mine. "

http://www.temperancetantrum.com/Temperance%20Songs.htm

and another on Morality in Music from the 1870's on with midi files to listen to which are fun:
http://www.parlorsongs.com/issues/2006- ... eature.asp

[RayS]

All the locals have told me the other side (north side) of Bedford begins North Main Street. Yes, I was amused to see that arrest book and marvel at the number of drunk and disorderly entries. The entire Temperance Movement was launched as the result of the heartrending effect alcohol had on the family: child neglect, spousal abuse, destitution, etc. , in all strata of society but most pitifully upon the very poor. "Taking the Pledge" , the White Ribbon Temperance Hymnal, and endless evangelizing by church-going men and women from the sidewalk soapbox to the pulpit condemning the evils of liquor finally culminated in America's Great Experiment- Prohibition.

If you have read about the Cornell case in Catherine William's Fall River: An Authentic Narrative, there is much about the drunken antics at so-called "Bible and Gospel preaching camps", where it could actually be dangerous for ladies attending alone at these revivals in the woods in tents, where predatory men, fired up with liquor could get pretty ugly. It was sometimes a cycle of drink-repent-and back to the pit. Bad things sometimes went on after dark to naive women and girls. Places like Chatauqua New York, among many such places, became a summer Bible study and culture colony which was safe, well-organized and offered charming little Victorian gingerbread-style bungalows for attendees. It is a facinating topic for study. Naturally the drink of preference was "Adam's Ale" (water) or Temperance Tea (lemonade). I have a book from the era of alcohol free recipes for punches, syllabubs and refreshing beverages. My granny used to sing "Give me water- water-/ water is the drink for me"

Can you cite any published books in a library that support your claim?
I thought revival camps were mostly a family affair.

[RayS]

Here is a good sampling of Temperance Songs- I particularly love "Lips that touch liquor will never touch mine" An excellent website link below about a theatrical production on the topic, but with good reference materials:
...
http://www.temperancetantrum.com/Temperance%20Songs.htm

and another on Morality in Music from the 1870's on with midi files to listen to which are fun:
http://www.parlorsongs.com/issues/2006- ... eature.asp

Some years ago I read a Library book on the Temperance movement. It first began in the 1820s in upstate NY, then spread outwards.

The Prohibition Movement was run by Corporate-controlled lobbies (like Rockefeller, Carnegie). They promised a rise in prosperity and a drop in crime if only Alcohol was prohibited by law. The result was a drop in prosperity leading to the Great Depression, and a rise in crime.

One marker for political oppression is a rise in poverty, as in many south American countries. Being a wage earner guarantees poverty, or any job where you work 8-9 months a year (like agricultural workers).

In 1890 the South Carolina Legislature passed a lay prohibiting alcohol, and the governor signed it. It became a dead letter when the Militia refused to enforce it. The book didn't say why. But whiskey (two shots for an adult, one for a child) was a classic antihelminth (dewormer) after fasting for a day. Very important in those times for most people.

There used to be a recurring scene in those old westerns. A man come into a bar, says he's been on the road all day and hasn't eaten. He orders two shots of whiskey. (No laugh track then.) THAT should make old timers smile because they knew what was implide here.