Thoughts On Reading John Douglas/Cases That Haunt Us

[Kat]

I usually flip-flop from believing in someone's guilt to believing in their innocence and on and on.
After that show my mind is made up and that is most unusual.
I wonder if that is on this thread? I didn't go back to look.
I saw the program and posted extensively about it.
Anyone know where that is hereabouts?

[Kat]

I found the link to my topic on that Lindbergh show if anyone's interested:

viewtopic.php?t=1006

[Angel]

I wanted to refamiliarize myself with the Lindbergh case, so I read through the "Crime Library" version of it online. It is interesting that in so many cases there is always at least one author who has a unique view of things that most people would find it a stretch to believe. In the Noel Behn book he states that Anne's sister killed the baby in a wild frenzy of jealousy because she was not the one Charles chose to marry, and then the family tried to cover it up to protect her. She died not long afterwards. Evidently the book was well written, but there is no evidence to support this. Sounds familiar.

[RayS]

There was a book written about 25 years ago by a man who claimed to be the missing Lindbergh baby. An interesting book, even if you don't believe it.

I've read there was some question about the health of the Eaglet, which would have been an embarrassment to Lindbergh.

For those who have questioned my cynicism years ago, know that Lucky Lindy had a mistress and 3 children in Germany in the 1930s. The mile high club?

[RayS]

I wanted to refamiliarize myself with the Lindbergh case, so I read through the "Crime Library" version of it online. It is interesting that in so many cases there is always at least one author who has a unique view of things that most people would find it a stretch to believe. In the Noel Behn book he states that Anne's sister killed the baby in a wild frenzy of jealousy because she was not the one Charles chose to marry, and then the family tried to cover it up to protect her. She died not long afterwards. Evidently the book was well written, but there is no evidence to support this. Sounds familiar.

WHERE is the evidence for it??? Mere speculation is not evidence. "He/she could have done it" is not evidence.

That being said, Behn's book does give a lot of details. I hope most of it is correct. The part about betraying a secret agent in Mexico rings true to me.

[theebmonique]

I wanted to refamiliarize myself with the Lindbergh case, so I read through the "Crime Library" version of it online. It is interesting that in so many cases there is always at least one author who has a unique view of things that most people would find it a stretch to believe. In the Noel Behn book he states that Anne's sister killed the baby in a wild frenzy of jealousy because she was not the one Charles chose to marry, and then the family tried to cover it up to protect her. She died not long afterwards. Evidently the book was well written, but there is no evidence to support this. Sounds familiar.

WHERE is the evidence for it??? Mere speculation is not evidence. "He/she could have done it" is not evidence.

That being said, Behn's book does give a lot of details. I hope most of it is correct. The part about betraying a secret agent in Mexico rings true to me.

Angel very clearly (my bolding above) stated there was no evidentiary support.





Tracy...

[NESpinster]

Lindberg had more than just a German mistress and kids--he apparently had a high opinion of the Nazis over in Germany at the time.

He had been immensely popular up until that came out (not to mention the sympathy people felt after his son was kidnapped and murdered) but he quickly fell from favor when people began to realize that he had gotten pretty cozy with the Nazis.

I've also read the Douglas book (this one and several others) and by and large I tend to agree with him. I think profiling DOES have its uses, altho profilers are only human and can make mistakes.

What struck me was how determined Lizzie seemed to be NOT to find her step-mother's body. It wasn't like Lizzie was your typical squeamish Victorian spinster--she didn't even flinch when she found her father's butchered body.

Yet she absolutely refused to look around the house to find Abby--even tho she stated repeatedly that she thought she had heard Abby come in.

You would think that after getting no offers to look for Abby after the second time or so, Lizzie would have jumped up and said, "Well, I'll go look for her then!"

But no--she kept on about needing to find Abby, and how certain she was that she had heard Abby coming into the house, and how someone needed to tell Abby the awful news--until finally poor Bridget and one of the neighbors were practically forced to go looking for Abby---and lo and behold, they found her lying in her own blood.

I think Douglas has a point there.

Why didn't Lizzie just go looking for her step-mother herself--unless she thought it might look funny if she were the one to find two dead bodies in one morning?!

[diana]

It wasn't like Lizzie was your typical squeamish Victorian spinster--she didn't even flinch when she found her father's butchered body.

Just to provide another side to that coin....

While it’s true that police officers Fleet and Harrington described her as cold and unfeeling on the morning of the tragedy, her neighbor, Charles Sawyer, who had visited the house on previous occasions and was pretty much the first outsider on the scene, claimed Lizzie was "apparently grief-stricken" and said later "when they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off in some kind of swoon or hysterical fit..." Her neighbor, Mrs. Churchill, described her as "distressed" and Alice Russell, found her "dazed" and said, "we intended ... not to leave Lizzie. We knew the state she was in". (all quotes from Inquest testimony)

[RayS]

Obviously what people here believe is what they want to believe (in spite of the evidence).
Lizzie's stroke of grief is proved by the medication prescribed by Dr. Bowen. Her reaction is the best evidence for her innocence.

Thanks for bringing this up, 'diana'.

I hope you will find my Proof of Brown's Theory parts 1 to 5 worth reading.

[Kat]

That's really funny! Putting Diana's name in quotes!
I bet you loved that, eh, 'Diana!'

Anyway, it's a bit of exaggeration going on about Lizzie not wishing to find Abby:
Inquest
Lizzie
83(40)
Q. Did you say you thought she was up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search up stairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is;" that is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.
-------
I'm not saying Lizzie did or did not want to find Abbie's body. I'm only giving her side of the story- her answers on oath should at least be taken into account.

Not to single anyone out, but:
I've posted about 4 times so far tonight on various threads and 3 times I had to bring up actual testimony from Lizzie's Inquest to counter someone's post.

I read it and re-read it a few times a year and maybe others might consider keeping up with that source?

.....

Of course, anyone can quote Mrs. Churchill or Bridget back about what they say Lizzie said about looking for Abbie- but we did that already.

[RayS]

Having no other information, I assume most posters have the sense to use a screen name (nom de plume).
I'm sure 'diana' or diana will forgive me my faux pas.

Is there any restriction on duplicate screen names?

[diana]

Thank you for addressing what Lizzie said about finding Abby, Kat. As everyone on the forum probably knows by now, that's one of my pet peeves. (So please don't take this barrage personally, NESpinster -- I've harangued away about this before!)

Here are a few more excerpts from Lizzie's inquest testimony to add to the one you posted:

"Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out."
...................................................

"Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs?
A. No sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No sir."

Like you, I feel Lizzie's side of the story should continue to be heard -- not because her version is necessarily any truer than anyone else's -- but because it forms a part of the total picture.


BTW -- the quotes around my name didn't bother me at all really because I often puzzle over exactly how to address other posters -- but I did forget to add Bridget to my previous list of people who said that Lizzie was upset on the day of the murders.
"Q. How did she seem?
A. She seemed to be excited more than I ever saw her.
Q. Was she crying?
A. Yes, she was crying." (Bridget's Inquest testimony read out to her at Trial)

[RayS]

The above quote show Lizzie's consistency in believing that Abby had gone out, as per the note left earlier.
Yes, I know it no longer existed. Masterton says it was quite normal to toss these into the stove.
What do you do with old messages? Junk Mail? No handy stove as in those days.