At the Preliminary Hearing Morse offers the information that he was "nervous" after coming down from upstairs- after he saw Abbie's body from under the bed.
Here is the questioning in context:
Q. Where did you first go after you entered the kitchen from the hall or entry way?
A. I went through, up on the stairs, part way up the front stairs.
Q. How did you get there?
A. I went through the back hall, through the sitting room, into the front hall, and up stairs.
Q. Passed by Mr. Borden lying on the sofa?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you look at him?
A. I cast one glance at him, that is all.
Q. Was he covered at that time?
A. No sir.
Q. You went up the front stairs, did you go up into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. How far did you go?
A. Probably two-thirds of the way up, so I could look under the bed.
Q. What do you mean by “look under the bed”?
A. When I got up high enough, I could look through the space under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden laying there between the bed and the bureau.
Q. Did you know she was up in that room?
A. They told me so.
Q. Somebody told you so. After you saw that, what did you do?
A. I went down stairs in where Lizzie was, into the dining room, she was sitting on the lounge.
Q. During this passage of yours through the house, did you see Dr. Dolan at all at that time?
A. I did not.
Q. Was he there?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. You did not see him?
A. I did not see him.
Q. All you saw was Mr. Sawyer, and Bridget, and Dr. Bowen, and two or three policemen?
A. There were several ladies there, I did not notice who they were.
Q. Where were they when you came in?
A. I think some of them in the sitting room, and some in the dining room right close to the door.
Q. Do you know what they were doing?
Page 255
A. I do not.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at that time when you first passed through to go up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you see these women when you first passed through to go up stairs?
A. I think I did.
Q. You did not notice who they were?
A. I did not.
Q. When you came back through the sitting room did you then notice Mr. Borden at all?
A. I did not.
Q. You did not look at him to examine anything?
A. No sir.
Q. Was he covered then when you came down?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Where did you go from the sitting room as you came down?
A. I went out in the other room, I think I went out of doors then.
Q. What do you mean by the “other room”?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Did you see Miss Lizzie after you came down?
A. When I came down stairs she was in the dining room sitting on the lounge.
Q. Did you go in there at all?
A. I did.
Q. You came through the sitting room, did you go into the dining room from the sitting room?
A. I went into the kitchen, from there into the dining room, from there back into the kitchen.
Q. Lizzie was on the lounge at that time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were these ladies with her?
A. Some of them, I dont know who.
Q. Do you know whether one was Mrs. Churchill, or Miss Russell?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you know any of them?
A. I was so excited at that time I could not tell you who they were; I was nervous, to tell the truth about it.
Q. Then you went out of doors?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did you do out of doors?
A. I dont know as anything.
---What was Morse "excited" and "nervous" about?
. * . * . * . * .
And why did he say he did not enter the guest room where Abbie lay? - yet Doherty says:
I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed." (Preliminary Hearing, p. 330 - 332).
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... rsedoherty
Morse Was Nervous
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Kat
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Yooper
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So, Morse thinks he saw the women but did not see Lizzie, possibly because they were between Lizzie and him? The women may have been in the kitchen when he first arrived. Would he have seen the women if he was in the kitchen and they were in the dining room? He says he went from the kitchen, through the sitting room, and upstairs. This implies that the kitchen/sitting room door was open, or maybe he opened it. He reversed the direction when he came downstairs, directly from the sitting room to the kitchen. Maybe this was why the women moved Lizzie from the kitchen to the dining room, the door to the sitting room was open.
Could the discrepancy about Morse being in the guest room indicate two separate occurrences? Could he have gone back upstairs for some reason when he was found there by Doherty? If he went outdoors and remained there, maybe not.
Maybe he was nervous about the possibility of being considered a suspect himself. Being a single man and used to living by himself, his realization for self-preservation might occur somewhat earlier than for someone living with others. His first instinct might be more self-centered. I agree though, "nervous" is an odd way to describe his reaction!
Could the discrepancy about Morse being in the guest room indicate two separate occurrences? Could he have gone back upstairs for some reason when he was found there by Doherty? If he went outdoors and remained there, maybe not.
Maybe he was nervous about the possibility of being considered a suspect himself. Being a single man and used to living by himself, his realization for self-preservation might occur somewhat earlier than for someone living with others. His first instinct might be more self-centered. I agree though, "nervous" is an odd way to describe his reaction!
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Kat
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So it may be his unique form of expression? I hadn't thought of that. It seemed more like someone who'd had too much coffee, rather than a possible killer or suspect or relative. I think it's odd...
I had thought it was interesting that he was excited and nervous- Emma on Monday claims she was *afraid*- Mrs. Dr. Bowen had reacted to the news to the point where her husband sent her home telling her she *was not fit to stay* that forenoon.
Alice was "frightened* Saturday by the club under her bed.
But do we know what Mrs. Churchill felt or what Lizzie felt?
I was looking for what these people felt.
It's interesting Morse volunteered that depiction of his feelings. It was kind of unexpected. Is he setting us up for something?
I had thought it was interesting that he was excited and nervous- Emma on Monday claims she was *afraid*- Mrs. Dr. Bowen had reacted to the news to the point where her husband sent her home telling her she *was not fit to stay* that forenoon.
Alice was "frightened* Saturday by the club under her bed.
But do we know what Mrs. Churchill felt or what Lizzie felt?
I was looking for what these people felt.
It's interesting Morse volunteered that depiction of his feelings. It was kind of unexpected. Is he setting us up for something?
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Yooper
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I'm not sure what Mrs. Churchill was feeling, but Lizzie didn't seem to be overwhelmed by emotions. According to Mrs. Churchill in the Witness Statements, Lizzie was making funeral arrangements for both Abby and Andrew as soon as Mrs. Churchill returned from running across the street. Lizzie was supposedly unaware of Abby's death at the time and had no reason to suspect it.
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doug65oh
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That’s an interesting point Bob brings up. Reading the comment in context – and to a degree I’m projecting a bit, but not much really, only trying to get an idea of what Morse may have sounded like on the stand as he answered that, if that makes sense. Set that “nervous” comment alongside what he had seen, probably looking through the balustrade as he went up. There’s at least some sense (and admittedly this is subjective on my part) that as Morse testified ten months after the murders, some part of his mind went right back there to Second Street the day of the murders. Seeing the body seems to have rattled him badly enough perhaps that he … Well, in plain terms he lost his mind for a minute or two in a figurative sense, and only really came to himself a short time later once he came back down the stairs. “Nervous” was probably as near as he could get to what he really felt – as Bob suggested, “Well, to be frank about the matter the scene scared the .… out of me.”
At a loss for words might be a good description. The cadence – or one that would fit – would be slow, deliberate, and halting. Know what I mean? What I’m thinking of here is almost entirely psychological.
At a loss for words might be a good description. The cadence – or one that would fit – would be slow, deliberate, and halting. Know what I mean? What I’m thinking of here is almost entirely psychological.
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Kat
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Does Morse repeat the nervous and excited phrasing at the trial?
This quote is from the preliminary hearing at the end of August, 1892.
Then he went outside and supposedly spent the rest of the day out there in the yard. I can picture him pacing, listening to what people were saying- or maybe ruminating?
This is when, I think, he claimed the cellar door was *open?*
This quote is from the preliminary hearing at the end of August, 1892.
Then he went outside and supposedly spent the rest of the day out there in the yard. I can picture him pacing, listening to what people were saying- or maybe ruminating?
This is when, I think, he claimed the cellar door was *open?*
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doug65oh
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Oh - No, that was a simple misconstruction of the timeline on my part. (I completely overlooked the phrase preliminary hearing above.) If Morse was dredging up relatively fresh recollections though, the same would still hold concerning his possible demeanor on the stand.
Morse was never really asked to describe the events in any great detail at New Bedford. He mentioned seeing Mrs. Borden with blood on her face and not much else. The New Bedford testimony lacks the character evident in the initial testimony.
I'd think Morse leaving the house for the yard a reasonable reaction really, considering what he'd walked into. The yard at least was an open space, unmarred by scenes of murder. Listening, waiting, etc.
Morse was never really asked to describe the events in any great detail at New Bedford. He mentioned seeing Mrs. Borden with blood on her face and not much else. The New Bedford testimony lacks the character evident in the initial testimony.
I'd think Morse leaving the house for the yard a reasonable reaction really, considering what he'd walked into. The yard at least was an open space, unmarred by scenes of murder. Listening, waiting, etc.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
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diana
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I guess it depends on who you read. Charles Sawyer claimed Lizzie was "apparently grief-stricken" and said later "when they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off in some kind of swoon or hysterical fit..." Mrs. Churchill, described her as "distressed" and Alice Russell, found her "dazed". (All quotes from the Inquest testimony.)Yooper @ Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:57 pm wrote: . . . I'm not sure what Mrs. Churchill was feeling, but Lizzie didn't seem to be overwhelmed by emotions. . . .
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Yooper
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Yes, it does depend upon who is making the observation. Mrs. Churchill described the first thing Lizzie said to her after she returned from across the street as having to go to the cemetery herself. This was some time before the other observations were made. Why Abby would not have to go to the cemetery rather than Lizzie is a mystery, Lizzie had no reason to suppose Abby was dead at that point. This is what Lizzie was thinking about, not how she looked. She was in enough control of her faculties to envision a logical progression of events so she was not completely overcome by emotion. I suggest a person who had just committed two murders might look a bit frazzled.
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Yooper
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I can find no reference to Lizzie's feelings immediately after the murders, only to her behavior. Lizzie would have to express that herself. For an observer to ascribe feelings to behavior calls for an implication and may or may not be correct.
I don't know why fear was not evident at any time on Lizzie's part. Confusion certainly was, if we can call it that; Lizzie sent both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill for a doctor, and when Mrs. Churchill returned, Lizzie said she needed to go to the cemetery.
I don't know why fear was not evident at any time on Lizzie's part. Confusion certainly was, if we can call it that; Lizzie sent both Bridget and Mrs. Churchill for a doctor, and when Mrs. Churchill returned, Lizzie said she needed to go to the cemetery.
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Susan
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In Lizzie's inquest I can find two mentions by Lizzie herself to her emotions; both are on page 78:
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Thats all I could find for Lizzie describing her emotions the day of the murders. Nothing in the witness statements except Lizzie not wanting to be questioned while Dr. Bowen was in her room as it would make her sick.
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Thats all I could find for Lizzie describing her emotions the day of the murders. Nothing in the witness statements except Lizzie not wanting to be questioned while Dr. Bowen was in her room as it would make her sick.
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Yooper
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I wonder what Lizzie was afraid of? It was not likely an intruder still present in the house, she never left. In fact, she sent her only support out of the house. If she was afraid Andrew was going to die, she was convinced she needed to go to the cemetery a couple of minutes later, without having gone back to see him.
Lizzie might have been horrified by the scene. What I find more frightening is an innocent person calling to the only person left alive in the house, and waiting for her to descend the stairs. I wonder why Lizzie did not suspect Bridget.
Lizzie might have been horrified by the scene. What I find more frightening is an innocent person calling to the only person left alive in the house, and waiting for her to descend the stairs. I wonder why Lizzie did not suspect Bridget.
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shakiboo
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I don't think her calling out for Bridget is at all strange, why on earth would she have any reason to think Bridget would or could do such a thing? She had known Bridget for several years, and she had lived in the same house with her. I would be more suspicious of Lizzie if she hadn't yelled for Bridget and had just ran out the door. Same way actually for Lizzie going back the way she came to go out the side door, she had (supposedly) just come in that way and had seen no one, but going to the front of the house would be going through rooms that she couldn't be sure that no one was there. I think I would have back tracted out the way I had come in, under those circumstances.
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Yooper
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Calling out to Bridget implies that Lizzie was in charge of the situation and in charge of the household. Lizzie told two people she heard Abby return. Why would she not call out to Abby if that was true?
Unless Lizzie had reason to suspect someone in particular, I don't know why Bridget would be beyond suspicion.
Unless Lizzie had reason to suspect someone in particular, I don't know why Bridget would be beyond suspicion.
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Kat
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Thank you Susan! That's what I was looking for.
Yooper, here's the rest, where Lizzie is asked if she sent anyone looking for Abbie:
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir.
79 (36)
Q. You went into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. Looked in at the door?
A. I opened the door and rushed back.
Q. Saw his face?
A. No, I did not see his face, because he was all covered with blood.
Q. You saw where the face was bleeding?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see the blood on the floor?
A. No sir.
Q. You saw his face covered with blood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see his eye ball hanging out?
A. No sir.
Q. See the gashes where his face was laid open?
A. No sir.
Q. Nothing of that kind?
A. No sir. (Witness covers her face with her hand for a minute or two; then examination is resumed.)
--I always thought that was horrible for Knowlton to drive that point home (no pun intended) about seeing Andrew's eyeball.
Anyway, calling up to Bridget might have just been Lizzie calling to see if Bridget was in or not. Bridget had told Lizzie she was going to get some dress goods on sale.
The "afraid" part- since it was asked here- might mean she (Lizzie) was afraid that someone was in the house hurting people, making them bleed.
I'm of the same mind about retracing my own steps to the side door and not venturing further into the house to wait for help. Lizzie sent Bridget for a doctor and says she thought her father was hurt. The first word to get out in the neighborhood was that there had been a ruckus or a stabbing at the Bordens'.
Yooper, here's the rest, where Lizzie is asked if she sent anyone looking for Abbie:
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir.
79 (36)
Q. You went into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. Looked in at the door?
A. I opened the door and rushed back.
Q. Saw his face?
A. No, I did not see his face, because he was all covered with blood.
Q. You saw where the face was bleeding?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see the blood on the floor?
A. No sir.
Q. You saw his face covered with blood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see his eye ball hanging out?
A. No sir.
Q. See the gashes where his face was laid open?
A. No sir.
Q. Nothing of that kind?
A. No sir. (Witness covers her face with her hand for a minute or two; then examination is resumed.)
--I always thought that was horrible for Knowlton to drive that point home (no pun intended) about seeing Andrew's eyeball.
Anyway, calling up to Bridget might have just been Lizzie calling to see if Bridget was in or not. Bridget had told Lizzie she was going to get some dress goods on sale.
The "afraid" part- since it was asked here- might mean she (Lizzie) was afraid that someone was in the house hurting people, making them bleed.
I'm of the same mind about retracing my own steps to the side door and not venturing further into the house to wait for help. Lizzie sent Bridget for a doctor and says she thought her father was hurt. The first word to get out in the neighborhood was that there had been a ruckus or a stabbing at the Bordens'.
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Yooper
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I can certainly understand an innocent person finding their father in that condition being horrified and it should induce fear for personal safety. That seems perfectly natural. Calling out to Bridget may have been partly to determine if she was still alive, given the circumstances. That also seems perfectly natural, as would calling out to Abby, given the same circumstances. I understand Lizzie hated Abby, but what was Lizzie going to do? Keep Andrew's murder a secret from her?
Lizzie said in the Inquest testimony that she hadn't told Bridget that she thought Abby had returned, that she thought Abby was still out. At the time she had not told Bridget she thought Abby had returned, that occurred later when Bridget offered to go to the Whitehead residence to find her. She first mentioned hearing Abby return to Mrs. Churchill when she first arrived:
Witness Statements, pages 11-12:
Monday, August, 8, 1892. Afternoon. Dr. Bowen. “Mrs. Churchill first told me of Mrs. Borden’s
death.”
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?”
“Well, if I must, I cant be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your
father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your
mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any
man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must
have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will?
Yes. I did so. When I returned the first thing I recollect she, (Lizzie) said is, O, I shall have to go to the cemetery myself. No, the undertaker will do that, was my reply. Then Dr. Bowen, Geo. Allen and Charles Sawyer came in. When Dr. Bowen had seen Mr. Borden, he asked me to come into the sitting room and see him, but I declined, and said I would not, I saw him this morning, and he looked so nice, I do not care about seeing him now. The Doctor then went out. Lizzie said, I think father must have an enemy, for we were all sick.
Mrs. Churchill, from the Inquest, page 128:
Q. What was the first thing you did?
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q. How did she show that?
A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says, what is the matter Lizzie? She said, "Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father." I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said "Lizzie, where is your father?" She says "in the sitting room." I said "where was you when it happened?" She said "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said "where is your mother?" She says "I dont know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I dont know but they have killed her too." She said "father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned." Then she said "Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor." I says "shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor?"
Q. What was that?
A. She said "Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor." I says "shall I go, Lizzie, and try to find someone to go and get one?" She said "yes." I went out and ran across the street, because I knew the young man that worked for us had gone in a yard where they sell horses, Mr. Hall’s yard, with a carriage he had been washing in our yard. He was going out of the yard that day when I went in with my bundles. I went across and called for Thomas Bowles. I says "somebody has killed Mr. Borden; go and get a Doctor." I dont know where he went. I went back. Soon after I got back she says "I shall have to go to the Cemetary myself." "O No," I says, "Lizzie, the undertaker will attend to all such things as that for you; they generally do."
If we take the general phrase about having "said to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs" from Kat's quote and apply it, perhaps over specifically, to the subject time period of first speaking to Bridget when she came downstairs, then Lizzie's reply of "No, sir" is correct. "Anybody" would only apply to Bridget at that moment, no one else was aware of the situation, there was no one else to tell. But Lizzie also said that she told people as they arrived "'I don't know where Mrs. Borden is'", and, "I thought she had gone out" in explanation for why she didn't try to find Abby. This refutes both Mrs. Churchill's testimony and Bridget's testimony about when Bridget offered to go and look for Abby at Abby's sister's house.
The concepts are mutually exclusive, they are not simultaneously correct. Lizzie would have Mrs. Churchill telling three whoppers, "I don't know but they killed her, too", "I think I heard her come in", and "I shall have to go to the cemetery myself". Why would Lizzie have to go to the cemetery herself, instead of Abby, unless Lizzie knew Abby was dead? This also implies that Mrs. Churchill had it in for Lizzie to tell such major falsehoods, she really must have wanted to incriminate Lizzie. In fact, she detested Lizzie so much that she came running to her aid when she thought Lizzie was in distress!
On the other hand, Lizzie was aware that she was a suspect in the murders by the time of the Inquest and she had some explaining to do about why she didn't call out to, or bother to look for her stepmother. Maybe Lizzie had better reason to stretch the truth than Mrs. Churchill and Bridget. So, when Lizzie says she was "horrified and afraid" in almost the same breath as the rest of it, I have to wonder about the veracity of that statement.
Lizzie said in the Inquest testimony that she hadn't told Bridget that she thought Abby had returned, that she thought Abby was still out. At the time she had not told Bridget she thought Abby had returned, that occurred later when Bridget offered to go to the Whitehead residence to find her. She first mentioned hearing Abby return to Mrs. Churchill when she first arrived:
Witness Statements, pages 11-12:
Monday, August, 8, 1892. Afternoon. Dr. Bowen. “Mrs. Churchill first told me of Mrs. Borden’s
death.”
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?”
“Well, if I must, I cant be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your
father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your
mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any
man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must
have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will?
Yes. I did so. When I returned the first thing I recollect she, (Lizzie) said is, O, I shall have to go to the cemetery myself. No, the undertaker will do that, was my reply. Then Dr. Bowen, Geo. Allen and Charles Sawyer came in. When Dr. Bowen had seen Mr. Borden, he asked me to come into the sitting room and see him, but I declined, and said I would not, I saw him this morning, and he looked so nice, I do not care about seeing him now. The Doctor then went out. Lizzie said, I think father must have an enemy, for we were all sick.
Mrs. Churchill, from the Inquest, page 128:
Q. What was the first thing you did?
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q. How did she show that?
A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says, what is the matter Lizzie? She said, "Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father." I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said "Lizzie, where is your father?" She says "in the sitting room." I said "where was you when it happened?" She said "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said "where is your mother?" She says "I dont know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I dont know but they have killed her too." She said "father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned." Then she said "Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor." I says "shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor?"
Q. What was that?
A. She said "Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor." I says "shall I go, Lizzie, and try to find someone to go and get one?" She said "yes." I went out and ran across the street, because I knew the young man that worked for us had gone in a yard where they sell horses, Mr. Hall’s yard, with a carriage he had been washing in our yard. He was going out of the yard that day when I went in with my bundles. I went across and called for Thomas Bowles. I says "somebody has killed Mr. Borden; go and get a Doctor." I dont know where he went. I went back. Soon after I got back she says "I shall have to go to the Cemetary myself." "O No," I says, "Lizzie, the undertaker will attend to all such things as that for you; they generally do."
If we take the general phrase about having "said to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs" from Kat's quote and apply it, perhaps over specifically, to the subject time period of first speaking to Bridget when she came downstairs, then Lizzie's reply of "No, sir" is correct. "Anybody" would only apply to Bridget at that moment, no one else was aware of the situation, there was no one else to tell. But Lizzie also said that she told people as they arrived "'I don't know where Mrs. Borden is'", and, "I thought she had gone out" in explanation for why she didn't try to find Abby. This refutes both Mrs. Churchill's testimony and Bridget's testimony about when Bridget offered to go and look for Abby at Abby's sister's house.
The concepts are mutually exclusive, they are not simultaneously correct. Lizzie would have Mrs. Churchill telling three whoppers, "I don't know but they killed her, too", "I think I heard her come in", and "I shall have to go to the cemetery myself". Why would Lizzie have to go to the cemetery herself, instead of Abby, unless Lizzie knew Abby was dead? This also implies that Mrs. Churchill had it in for Lizzie to tell such major falsehoods, she really must have wanted to incriminate Lizzie. In fact, she detested Lizzie so much that she came running to her aid when she thought Lizzie was in distress!
On the other hand, Lizzie was aware that she was a suspect in the murders by the time of the Inquest and she had some explaining to do about why she didn't call out to, or bother to look for her stepmother. Maybe Lizzie had better reason to stretch the truth than Mrs. Churchill and Bridget. So, when Lizzie says she was "horrified and afraid" in almost the same breath as the rest of it, I have to wonder about the veracity of that statement.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Kat
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Well, we notice that Mrs. Churchill's statement changes from a casual one taken in The Witness Statements (the part you provided) to what she did say under oath.
It's often a fact that those under oath are much more careful what they say than when speaking to an official who may or may not be taking notes at the time (on the 8th, per your excerpt.)
Mrs. Churchill leaves out under oath- at least in the section you provide- the part where you say she claims that Lizzie told her she thought Abbie had come in.
Unless you have that under oath by Mrs. Churchill in another extract?
It's often a fact that those under oath are much more careful what they say than when speaking to an official who may or may not be taking notes at the time (on the 8th, per your excerpt.)
Mrs. Churchill leaves out under oath- at least in the section you provide- the part where you say she claims that Lizzie told her she thought Abbie had come in.
Unless you have that under oath by Mrs. Churchill in another extract?
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Kat
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Lizzie seems to have sent Alice Russell down to speak to Dr. Bowen about wanting Winward as an undertaker after they had been in her bedroom together a little bit of time.
So there you have Lizzie speaking about making arrangements at the cemetery herself (without consulting Abbie) and later we find Lizzie making sure Alice gives instruction as to her wishes to Dr. Bowen after Abbie is found. Meanwhile, Emma, who should be the one making these decisions with Uncle Morse, is not yet home.
I find it's possible that Lizzie was speaking from shock.
So there you have Lizzie speaking about making arrangements at the cemetery herself (without consulting Abbie) and later we find Lizzie making sure Alice gives instruction as to her wishes to Dr. Bowen after Abbie is found. Meanwhile, Emma, who should be the one making these decisions with Uncle Morse, is not yet home.
I find it's possible that Lizzie was speaking from shock.
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Yooper
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This is what Mrs. Churchill had to say at the trial concerning Lizzie's initial statements to her:
Adelaide Churchill, Trial, page 348:
Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm and said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said, "Where were you when it
happened, and, said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know; she had got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."
pages 350-351:
Q. Was there any further suggestion about Mrs. Borden from anyone?
A. After Miss Russell came Lizzie said she wished some one would try to find Mrs. Borden for she thought she heard her come in. So Bridget and I started to go to find her, went through the dining room out of the sitting room at the head, or where Mr. Borden was sitting or lying, and up into the hall. Bridget was just ahead of me. She led the way,
and as I went up stairs I turned my head to the left; and as I got up so that my eyes were on the level
with the front hall, I could see across the front hall and across the floor of the spare room. At the far side or the north side of the room I saw something that looked like the form of a person.
also from page 351:
Q. You may go on and state anything else that you think of which was said that morning or done that morning.
A. Miss Lizzie said to me that she should have to go to the cemetery, and I said, "Oh, no, the undertaker will attend to everything for you."
Mrs. Churchill's statement at the Inquest is less specific than in the Witness Statements or in the Trial testimony, but, from a logical perspective, why would Lizzie think Abby was dead if she didn't think Abby had returned? Was she clairvoyant? It says the same thing, even if by implication. I would be less likely to believe Mrs. Churchill if she was simply parroting an earlier statement.
Alice was sent to speak to Dr. Bowen about an undertaker after Abby had been found. At the time Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill about her need to go to the cemetery, Abby had not been found. At the time, Lizzie wasn't even sure Andrew was dead, she had just finished sending for a doctor. Twice! She had not gone back to the sitting room to check on him.
The thought process of injury=>doctor and death=>cemetery is far too logical to be the result of shock. People tend to be incapacitated by shock, often lacking the ability to think at all.
Adelaide Churchill, Trial, page 348:
Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm and said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said, "Where were you when it
happened, and, said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know; she had got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."
pages 350-351:
Q. Was there any further suggestion about Mrs. Borden from anyone?
A. After Miss Russell came Lizzie said she wished some one would try to find Mrs. Borden for she thought she heard her come in. So Bridget and I started to go to find her, went through the dining room out of the sitting room at the head, or where Mr. Borden was sitting or lying, and up into the hall. Bridget was just ahead of me. She led the way,
and as I went up stairs I turned my head to the left; and as I got up so that my eyes were on the level
with the front hall, I could see across the front hall and across the floor of the spare room. At the far side or the north side of the room I saw something that looked like the form of a person.
also from page 351:
Q. You may go on and state anything else that you think of which was said that morning or done that morning.
A. Miss Lizzie said to me that she should have to go to the cemetery, and I said, "Oh, no, the undertaker will attend to everything for you."
Mrs. Churchill's statement at the Inquest is less specific than in the Witness Statements or in the Trial testimony, but, from a logical perspective, why would Lizzie think Abby was dead if she didn't think Abby had returned? Was she clairvoyant? It says the same thing, even if by implication. I would be less likely to believe Mrs. Churchill if she was simply parroting an earlier statement.
Alice was sent to speak to Dr. Bowen about an undertaker after Abby had been found. At the time Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill about her need to go to the cemetery, Abby had not been found. At the time, Lizzie wasn't even sure Andrew was dead, she had just finished sending for a doctor. Twice! She had not gone back to the sitting room to check on him.
The thought process of injury=>doctor and death=>cemetery is far too logical to be the result of shock. People tend to be incapacitated by shock, often lacking the ability to think at all.
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Yooper
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Another point with respect to this testimony is that if Mrs. Churchill said the same thing at the Trial under oath as she did in the Witness Statements where she was not under oath, then Mrs. Churchill was not lying while not under oath, if we presume an oath would prevent lying. It also precludes an error on the part of the note taker in the Witness Statements, since it is substantially the same statement.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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I would like to ask a favor if I may, could someone with access to the Preliminary Hearing notes do a search for me? What I'm looking for is testimony regarding Lizzie directing the search for Abby in some way. It may be part of testimony by Bridget, Mrs. Churchill, or possibly Alice Russell. Something caused Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to go directly to the guest room. Any reference to the guest room or even just upstairs at that point in time would help. Bridget did not see Abby on her way down from her room and Abby's bedroom had been eliminated by then, so upstairs could only mean one thing.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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doug65oh
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by "directing the search" you're thinking along the lines of "Oh I think I heard her come in..." etc.?
It's in there, the witness is Mrs. Churchill, testifying at pg. 247 if I'm reading these page numbers correctly.
Let me get a little of this down:
Q. Coming back again. She said something about going out to the barn, as you have testified. What was the next thing that happened, as you remember?
A. I asked her where her mother was. She said she had a note to go see someone that was sick.
Q. Anything more?
A. But she did not know but that she was killed too. She then said she wished someone would try to find Mrs. Borden, for she thought she heard her come in.
--------
Lizzie then sent Mrs. Churchill in search of a doctor, she testified.
There... Is that what you were wondering about, Yooper?
It's in there, the witness is Mrs. Churchill, testifying at pg. 247 if I'm reading these page numbers correctly.
Let me get a little of this down:
Q. Coming back again. She said something about going out to the barn, as you have testified. What was the next thing that happened, as you remember?
A. I asked her where her mother was. She said she had a note to go see someone that was sick.
Q. Anything more?
A. But she did not know but that she was killed too. She then said she wished someone would try to find Mrs. Borden, for she thought she heard her come in.
--------
Lizzie then sent Mrs. Churchill in search of a doctor, she testified.
There... Is that what you were wondering about, Yooper?
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
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Yooper
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Thanks Doug, yes that reinforces the idea that Lizzie thought Abby had returned. I'm still seeking something directly from Lizzie to either Bridget, Mrs. Churchill, or both directing them to look for Abby either in the guest room or upstairs, if it even exists. Something caused the two women to go directly to where Abby lay. Lizzie did not try to prevent them from going up the front stairway the way she prevented Bridget from going to the Whitehead house so she must have intended for them to go to the guest room. What I need is, ideally, a direction from Lizzie to either one of them to do that.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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doug65oh
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I know what you mean, Yooper. I'm not sure that anything more explicit than that somewhat backhanded directive exists - and I'm talking about statements made under oath rather than news reports, etc. Maybe it's just me but that "I don't know but that she is killed too..." remark, plus the "heard her come in" (paraphrased) that Lizzie made ...sticks out like a sore thumb. 
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
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shakiboo
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I was looking for the information that you asked for Yooper, and I hadn't realized that the police hadn't done a check of the house, prior to Mrs. Churchill and Bridget going up there........you would think after finding Andrew, and knowing it was murder, that immediately the house would have been checked, they let two women go up by themselves not knowing if the murderer was still lurking around or not. And I wonder, if Mrs. Churchill hadn't looked in that direction on that exact step, how long it would have taken them to find Abbie, because other then going all the way into the room to the other side of the bed, she wouldn'[t have been seen. If Lizzie deliberately wanted some one to find her (Abbie) wouldn't Lizzie have flipped if they'd come back down and said she wasn't up there?
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Yooper
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I agree Doug, it implies knowledge of Abby's death. Lizzie absolutely did not hear Abby return, Abby never left. An examination of the testimony and witness notes indicates Lizzie had no opportunity to hear anything which she could have even mistaken as Abby's arrival. So, why would she think Abby was dead? Add to this the idea that Lizzie, not Abby, must go to the cemetery herself further implies knowledge that Abby is incapable of making arrangements for her husband, so Lizzie will have to make them. If I can find Lizzie directing the search, sending Mrs. Churchill and Bridget directly to where Abby was found, it would be far too much to chalk up to coincidence!doug65oh @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:56 pm wrote:I know what you mean, Yooper. I'm not sure that anything more explicit than that somewhat backhanded directive exists - and I'm talking about statements made under oath rather than news reports, etc. Maybe it's just me but that "I don't know but that she is killed too..." remark, plus the "heard her come in" (paraphrased) that Lizzie made ...sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Kat
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--partial quotedoug65oh @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:56 pm wrote:Maybe it's just me but that "I don't know but that she is killed too..." remark, plus the "heard her come in" (paraphrased) that Lizzie made ...sticks out like a sore thumb.
But that is not directly from Lizzie, that is still Mrs. Churchill.
Just to be a purist.
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Yooper
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Lizzie never thought of calling the police, although in all fairness neither did anyone else directly summoned by Lizzie. Still, if she was innocent, Lizzie sent two women into an unchecked area of the house. Dr. Bowen had also inadvertently done so when he requested a sheet to cover Andrew. That was perhaps a bit different in that the key had to be retrieved from the mantle and presumably used to gain access to the elder Bordens' bedroom. It probably seemed safe enough if the key was needed, but it doesn't preclude someone hiding there. An intruder would have had to unlock the bedroom door, replace the key on the mantle, then enter the room and lock the door, all assuming no sign of forced entry. Pretty far fetched, but not impossible.shakiboo @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:49 pm wrote:I was looking for the information that you asked for Yooper, and I hadn't realized that the police hadn't done a check of the house, prior to Mrs. Churchill and Bridget going up there........you would think after finding Andrew, and knowing it was murder, that immediately the house would have been checked, they let two women go up by themselves not knowing if the murderer was still lurking around or not. And I wonder, if Mrs. Churchill hadn't looked in that direction on that exact step, how long it would have taken them to find Abbie, because other then going all the way into the room to the other side of the bed, she wouldn'[t have been seen. If Lizzie deliberately wanted some one to find her (Abbie) wouldn't Lizzie have flipped if they'd come back down and said she wasn't up there?
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shakiboo
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The more you try to figure out this puzzle the more puzzling it becomes! For instance, when Lizzie walked to the drugstore with something over her arm (fur cape?) not a single person came forward to say they saw her, and then it's rationalized that it was possible for her to do so because at that time of day everyone was busy fixing meals, eating meals etc. but the very next day at almost the same time, Its proclaimed impossible for an unknown somebody to go out of the Borden house because it's a busy street with too many people standing around watching the Borden house....yet Lizzie had done it just the day before and I doubt she even made any attempt to try to be unseen. She not only went she came back unseen, So if someone is trying to remain unseen, and no one is aware of any wrong doing, it would be quite possible for someone to go out the side door, and around to the back of the house, come around to the other side of the house and wait and watch for a time to just step right out on the street and proceed on. No weapon was found not then or all these years later, with as much remodeling etc. that has gone on in that house, had Lizzie hid it in a wall etc surly it would have been found by now, no bloody clothes found, except for presumably Lizzies menstrul napkins (used by some one else to clean themselves up) The hatchet head itself went out the door with who ever.........Of course that would mean some one in the house had to Know, and I think Lizzie did. What do you think?????
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Allen
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For the killer to get the key off the mantle at all implies familiarity with the scene. How would the killer first know the door was locked unless he tried it and found it so, and then how would he know where to get the key? Lizzie's door was kept locked, the dress closet door was kept locked, and both doors to Andrew and Abby's bedroom were kept locked. How would the killer know this unless he first went around trying all the doors? Then how would he know where the keys were kept? This is pretty risky behavior for someone who is trying NOT to be seen. To have even found a hiding place at all implies to me it was someone who knew all this ahead of time. How did the killer know where to find Abby once he was inside? She could've been anywhere in the house. He couldn't know where anybody was until after he got inside, and then he had to find a hiding place with all those locked doors. That's pretty risky and I don't see how anyone could've pulled it off undetected.
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1bigsteve
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Allen @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:58 am wrote:For the killer to get the key off the mantle at all implies familiarity with the scene. How would the killer first know the door was locked unless he tried it and found it so, and then how would he know where to get the key? Lizzie's door was kept locked, the dress closet door was kept locked, and both doors to Andrew and Abby's bedroom were kept locked. How would the killer know this unless he first went around trying all the doors? Then how would he know where the keys were kept? This is pretty risky behavior for someone who is trying NOT to be seen. To have even found a hiding place at all implies to me it was someone who knew all this ahead of time. How did the killer know where to find Abby once he was inside? She could've been anywhere in the house. He couldn't know where anybody was until after he got inside, and then he had to find a hiding place with all those locked doors. That's pretty risky and I don't see how anyone could've pulled it off undetected.
I agree with you, Allen. I don't see how a killer could have come into the house unseen, killed Abby unseen then find a hiding place and remain hidden, come out unseen, kill Andrew unseen and leave unseen. And unheard. The killing must have been done either by a member of the family or by a killer who had help from a family member. I just don't see it happening any other way.
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Angel
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It never seems to occur to anyone then or now that a murderer could have been hiding in the basement.
Or, for that matter, why, if Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in, would she not have said that Abby could have been upstairs OR down there? If she was innocent and didn't really know where she was, why would she assume Abby went up the front stairs instead of down to the basement to use the facilities or something? She had to have known where Abby was.
Or, for that matter, why, if Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in, would she not have said that Abby could have been upstairs OR down there? If she was innocent and didn't really know where she was, why would she assume Abby went up the front stairs instead of down to the basement to use the facilities or something? She had to have known where Abby was.
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Yooper
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Don't forget the degree of selectivity involved. The mysterious intruder killed Abby and Andrew, but left Lizzie and Bridget alive.
Had it been a knuckle-dragger bent on general mayhem, he wouldn't have cared who showed up and when. There would have been carcases strewn from kitchen to foyer, and the victims would have fallen in the order encountered. The degree of control does not fit, but this is almost a better fit than the next alternative.
The other possibility is an intruder known to Lizzie. Unfortunately, a lot more than just the intruder needs to be known to Lizzie. Andrew wasn't feeling well, there was no guarantee he would feel well enough for his daily calls or whether he might return early from them. John Morse might return at any moment, no telling where he was or for how long. It would have to be known ahead of time that Bridget would be outside for a part of the day and at the same time that Andrew and John were gone for who knows how long. Bridget also had to be done in time to go to her room or somewhere else out of the way when Andrew returned. Abby would need to be on the second or third floor or in the cellar at some time in order to not raise the alarm when Andrew and/or John returned. How Lizzie might have known all that in order to invite the intruder on that particular day is beyond me.
How any intruder arrived and left unnoticed is remarkable. The short answer is: there was no intruder of any kind.
Had it been a knuckle-dragger bent on general mayhem, he wouldn't have cared who showed up and when. There would have been carcases strewn from kitchen to foyer, and the victims would have fallen in the order encountered. The degree of control does not fit, but this is almost a better fit than the next alternative.
The other possibility is an intruder known to Lizzie. Unfortunately, a lot more than just the intruder needs to be known to Lizzie. Andrew wasn't feeling well, there was no guarantee he would feel well enough for his daily calls or whether he might return early from them. John Morse might return at any moment, no telling where he was or for how long. It would have to be known ahead of time that Bridget would be outside for a part of the day and at the same time that Andrew and John were gone for who knows how long. Bridget also had to be done in time to go to her room or somewhere else out of the way when Andrew returned. Abby would need to be on the second or third floor or in the cellar at some time in order to not raise the alarm when Andrew and/or John returned. How Lizzie might have known all that in order to invite the intruder on that particular day is beyond me.
How any intruder arrived and left unnoticed is remarkable. The short answer is: there was no intruder of any kind.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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Exactly right! She knew right where to find Abby, she was right where she left her! Lizzie could have said that she heard a noise upstairs or somewhere else which she took to be Abby having returned. Lizzie screwed up when she insisted she heard Abby come in which implies Lizzie was in the house at the time. If Lizzie wasn't so intent upon distancing herself in the barn loft, she might have "heard the door" from outside which she took as Abby going in. Not Lizzie, she needed to hear nothing and see nothing.Angel @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:21 pm wrote:It never seems to occur to anyone then or now that a murderer could have been hiding in the basement.
Or, for that matter, why, if Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in, would she not have said that Abby could have been upstairs OR down there? If she was innocent and didn't really know where she was, why would she assume Abby went up the front stairs instead of down to the basement to use the facilities or something? She had to have known where Abby was.
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Angel
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What I wrote only means that what Lizzie says she says is only to be found in Lizzie's inquest testimony which I'm sure you've already studied carefully.Yooper @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:48 am wrote:I don't think you would intentionally mislead anyone Kat, so what I seek must be in the Preliminary material.
It's not misleading to refer you back to Lizzie herself- anything else is the interpretation of the charactor involved who is filtering events thru their own perception and then answering specific questions (like Mrs. Churchill, for instance). That's all I mean- especially when I say *to be a purist.*ie: I go see what Lizzie said, to counter what someone says she said. I think that's fair to give Lizzie her voice in the matter.
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FairhavenGuy
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Unfortunately, Kat, given Lizzie's changing story, how much weight can we give what Lizzie says she says. I would trust most people's accounts of Lizzie's story and actions more than I would trust anything she says herself.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Yooper
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I also think you tap-dance rather well!Kat @ Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:45 am wrote:What I wrote only means that what Lizzie says she says is only to be found in Lizzie's inquest testimony which I'm sure you've already studied carefully.Yooper @ Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:48 am wrote:I don't think you would intentionally mislead anyone Kat, so what I seek must be in the Preliminary material.
It's not misleading to refer you back to Lizzie herself- anything else is the interpretation of the charactor involved who is filtering events thru their own perception and then answering specific questions (like Mrs. Churchill, for instance). That's all I mean- especially when I say *to be a purist.*ie: I go see what Lizzie said, to counter what someone says she said. I think that's fair to give Lizzie her voice in the matter.
