Bridget

[Uozumi]

This is just me. There's a rumor that Bridget said later after the trial, that she lied about something to protect Lizzie. I am endlessly trying to find out what she specifically lied about. It's probably a lie that Bridget told a lie but I am still searching for the one thing that if was true or wasn't lied about about that would make Lizzie found guilty.

Steph F.

[Yooper]

There was also a rumor that Mrs. Churchill said she saw something at the Borden house the day of the murders that "wild horses couldn't drag out of her", or some such. There's bound to be rumors after a spectacular event, talk is cheap.

One thing I've had a gut feeling about is that no one wanted to be the one to overtly put a noose around Lizzie's neck. They may have told the truth and nothing but the truth, but did they tell the whole truth? For instance, Alice Russell came forward with the dress burning incident after the grand jury finished and they re-opened deliberations because of it. It took place the weekend after the murders, but Alice went through the Inquest and the Preliminary and kept quiet about it.

[snokkums]

I have heard that, too, but I think that she didn't say everything that she knew. I think she was trying protect Lizzie.

[Fargo]

There is one thing that Bridget said that we can be quite sure was untrue and that is that Lizzie and Abby got along good.

If Bridget had not said that then the prosecution would have had motive, a dislike for one of the victims.

[chuckciao]

I'm still puzzled as to why Bridget did not hear the carnage that was taking place below her. Although I have never visited the Borden house, based on floor plans I have seen, It seems reasonable that she should have heard something. Does anyone have an opinion about this

[Yooper]

I'm still puzzled as to why Bridget did not hear the carnage that was taking place below her. Although I have never visited the Borden house, based on floor plans I have seen, It seems reasonable that she should have heard something. Does anyone have an opinion about this

I really don't know how much noise to expect under the circumstances. Andrew's head was cushioned as he napped, any sound vibrations made by the hatchet blows would have been damped by the cushioning. Other than that, while I have experience using hatchets and axes, I have not used one in a way consistent with the Borden case.

[shakiboo]

Well Yooper, that's a very good thing to know! lol It gives me the willies even trying to imagine the noise that would have made, but since there was no struggle, nothing apparently knocked over, and poor Andrew not knowing what hit him, there might have been not much noise, at least not enough to carry up to the third floor.

[Yooper]

Well Yooper, that's a very good thing to know! lol It gives me the willies even trying to imagine the noise that would have made, but since there was no struggle, nothing apparently knocked over, and poor Andrew not knowing what hit him, there might have been not much noise, at least not enough to carry up to the third floor.

Now, now, Pam! I didn't actually say "murder", although I definitely implied it, I said anything consistent with the Borden case, which might include cleaving coconuts in twain! Purty stealthy, huh?

[shakiboo]

Well, I'm glad you clarified that! lol The " other" would definately not come under things to do when it's too cold outside!! lol Not even if enquiring minds want to know.

[doug65oh]

hmmm Well...okay. But if you should start singing I've Got Loverly Bunch of Cocoanuts....

[Yooper]

Good sideline work for the off-season, hatchet lobotomies 50 cents, precision chainsaw job one dollar.

[doug65oh]

You can get anything you want at A. B. Tripp's restaurant...

Might steer clear of the chowder tho...if you know what I mean.

[shakiboo]

Well Yooper, your prices are reasonable enough, but........I think I'll pass on the chowder too! lol

[Fargo]

Yes, we have no Bananas. We have no, Bananas todaaaaaay.

[shakiboo]

Well, how bout some tuttie fruitie cutie.....lol

[Kat]

Oh gosh- people have been experimenting with noises in the House ad infinitum. Members here have thrown themselves on the floor in their own homes risking injury.
I don't know what the results are. Maybe Shelley knows.
I've been in another part of the house while someone unexpectedly dropped something heavy in the guest room, and it was heard downstairs- but maybe the noise doesn't travel up- from the west front guest room to the back east attic room one floor up?

But supposedly Bridget wasn't too far from Andrew's murder- two floors up but only one room more to the southeast.
You'd think she'd at least hear the front door or the screen door. Do we think if she was in her room, that she did doze off?

[FairhavenGuy]

As far as I can see it, only Lizzie herself would have been in the house when Abby dropped to the floor. I feel that Bridget was outdoors at that time.

I don't know if the sound of the killing of Andrew would make it to the third floor. It's quite possible some dull thumping sound reached her room, but it wasn't anything really attracted her attention.

I'm often not fully aware of the noises in the other parts of our small house even though they would be easily audible if I paid attention.

[chuckciao]

Oh gosh- people have been experimenting with noises in the House ad infinitum. Members here have thrown themselves on the floor in their own homes risking injury.
I don't know what the results are. Maybe Shelley knows.
I've been in another part of the house while someone unexpectedly dropped something heavy in the guest room, and it was heard downstairs- but maybe the noise doesn't travel up- from the west front guest room to the back east attic room one floor up?

But supposedly Bridget wasn't too far from Andrew's murder- two floors up but only one room more to the southeast.
You'd think she'd at least hear the front door or the screen door. Do we think if she was in her room, that she did doze off?

I think I remember her testifying that she did not doze off but heard the 11AM city hall bell soon after she arrived in her room and was called down by Lizzie soon afterward.

[FairhavenGuy]

Bridget said that three or four minutes after getting upstairs she heard the 11:00 bell and checked her clock. Then ten minutes or so after that, she heard Lizzie call upstairs.

She was not sure whether she fell asleep or not, but seemed to think she did not fall asleep.

[FairhavenGuy]

I was just checking Kat's timeline for Bridget on the Crime Library page:

Bridget Sullivan Timeline

Bridget estimates she was upstairs ten to fifteen minutes.

Based on the discussion in "The Infamous Note" thread, I'd like to see Bridget's timeline after the discovery of Abby's body.

So far I've found she was upstairs in Lizzie's room (without police officers present, it seems) and she knew that Lizzie had changed into the pink wrapper. She was down in the cellar with Doherty, Fleet and Medley looking at hatchets. Also, after noon, Bridget went back across the street a third time, to the Millers'. Thursday night she spent the night there.

Bridget also changed dresses in the afternoon. . .

[Yooper]

Christopher, if I can imply that you're looking for the hatchet, there may be another possibility, also. Lye, a caustic alkaline, is created from ashes and water!

[Shelley]

Oh the experiments we have done over the years!- enough to make anyone black and blue. Remember, the windows were close while Bridget was washing them. She was on the South side for about 20 minutes or more talking to Mary Doolan and going in and out of the barn to get water. No, you cannot hear a scream, a fall or anything else going on in the guestroom from that location outside on the south end. As far as Bridget's bedroom, someone in the kitchen has to really YELL to be heard on the third floor as our cook, Dave will tell you. Some August 4th re-enactments are funny when when Lizzie yells up to Bridget from the first floor to "Come down quick" because "Bridget does not always hear the call and does not come down.

We have done hundreds of re-creations of "The Fall" with guests and the Mutton Eaters in the kitchen with the sitting room door closed and the house does not even tremble when Abby hits the floor. The parlor, diningroom, front hall and of course the sitting room (with the hall door left open) are place The Fall can be heard. We also do not KNOW that Abby fell with a loud crash from a standing position- she may have slumped in degrees and made little noise even though it was enough to leave bruises and contusions on her forehead and face. Also remember there was a lot of carriage traffic on the street and city noises.

[chuckciao]

Oh the experiments we have done over the years!- enough to make anyone black and blue. Remember, the windows were close while Bridget was washing them. She was on the South side for about 20 minutes or more talking to Mary Doolan and going in and out of the barn to get water. No, you cannot hear a scream, a fall or anything else going on in the guestroom from that location outside on the south end. As far as Bridget's bedroom, someone in the kitchen has to really YELL to be heard on the third floor as our cook, Dave will tell you. Some August 4th re-enactments are funny when when Lizzie yells up to Bridget from the first floor to "Come down quick" because "Bridget does not always hear the call and does not come down.

We have done hundreds of re-creations of "The Fall" with guests and the Mutton Eaters in the kitchen with the sitting room door closed and the house does not even tremble when Abby hits the floor. The parlor, diningroom, front hall and of course the sitting room (with the hall door left open) are place The Fall can be heard. We also do not KNOW that Abby fell with a loud crash from a standing position- she may have slumped in degrees and made little noise even though it was enough to leave bruises and contusions on her forehead and face. Also remember there was a lot of carriage traffic on the street and city noises.

Thanks Shelley, as a newbie to the forum, it's important to learn that these experiements have been done.

[doug65oh]

So in essence Shelley, you're referring to a "muffled thud" at most when Mrs. Borden went down (not necessarily from an upright position.) The accoustics in the house would work in favorof the killer rather than against. If Bridget were outdoors and the windows closed - and factoring in atmospheric noises common to the neighborhood on an ordinary day... Slim to none at best that Bridget heard anything that could be reasonably identified as sounds associated with a murder in the guestroom. That about right, is it?

[Shelley]

Oh yes, that house sits on solid thick granite and does not shimmy and shake. The killer had every advantage: closed windows, sitting room door closed, busy street sounds, shutter closed. I usually take the first part of the fall going vertical to my knees( Abby and I are about the same size so it is no stretch) and I do go down hard with a big crash. It is totally inaudible in the kitchen. Sometimes I even run around, shriek, speak in a loud voice, yell, gasp, etc. and NOBODY hears any of this in the kitchen. Even footsteps going up those stairs are unheard in the kitchen. Perhaps if the kitchen to sitting room door had been OPEN, the footsteps going up the staircase would have been heard-or a loud scream. We also do not know for sure if the door from the sitting room out to the front entry was open or shut-that also would make some difference. Having wall to wall, thick wool carpeting on those floors DULLS the sound factor all over the house.

[doug65oh]

Then, too – crack somebody on the melon in the right way (an almost literally stunning blow) and down she go, silent as you please but for a groan, perhaps. It gets a bit technical, but one could actually “time” the first blow according to Mrs. B.’s breathing patterns. The less air she’s got would leave for only a very small “vocal” response, if any at all. Soft as a sigh, possibly. The physical response - the last rush of air out - would be there, but...

[FairhavenGuy]

Christopher, if I can imply that you're looking for the hatchet, there may be another possibility, also. Lye, a caustic alkaline, is created from ashes and water!

No, I'm not looking for a hatchet in particular. If I were I don't think I'd be considering anything to do with lye. I have no idea whatsoever what you might be suggesting. Please explain.

(I'm a colonial period reenactor, so I know how to make lye from running water through lots and lots of ashes over and over again until it's strong enough for the purpose. And I know that lye plus animal fat = soap, among other things.)

What I was looking at regarding Bridget's whereabouts, beside possibly getting rid of a weapon, is disposal of other bloody towels or bloody clothing, etc. The hiding or removal of any evidence that might incriminate the people of the household.

[Yooper]

So, the kitchen is relatively isolated when it comes to sounds made in certain other parts of the house? I seem to remember some upstairs-kitchen-upstairs-kitchen waffling by Lizzie during the Inquest. That may not be a mystery then if the kitchen is relatively sound proof with respect to the guest room!

[Shelley]

Yes, the kitchen is all the way down at the east end of the house, the guestroom as far west as you can go and one floor up. This is when there were plaster walls and lathing and good old granite foundations. The entire second floor was carpeted as was the downstairs except for the kitchen-so you can see why the guestroom was ideal. Had Abby been in her own room above the kitchen, and Lizzie states she spent the better part of that time period in the kitchen- Lizzie's goose would have been cooked because you can even smell the coffee brewing in the Borden's room overhead, and the toilet flushing is heard, and feet on the floor and loud sounds. No, the guestroom was the PERFECT spot for the deed- and may not have been unintentional! I have made a slide presentation on Warps and Wefts called Through the Eyes of a Killer which follows a killer through the house, showing the doors and path exactly an intruder would have had to take. http://sanctaflora.wordpress.com/page/2/

[Yooper]

Christopher, if I can imply that you're looking for the hatchet, there may be another possibility, also. Lye, a caustic alkaline, is created from ashes and water!

No, I'm not looking for a hatchet in particular. If I were I don't think I'd be considering anything to do with lye. I have no idea whatsoever what you might be suggesting. Please explain.

(I'm a colonial period reenactor, so I know how to make lye from running water through lots and lots of ashes over and over again until it's strong enough for the purpose. And I know that lye plus animal fat = soap, among other things.)

What I was looking at regarding Bridget's whereabouts, beside possibly getting rid of a weapon, is disposal of other bloody towels or bloody clothing, etc. The hiding or removal of any evidence that might incriminate the people of the household.

The handleless hatchet found in the basement appeared to have been rinsed and put into ashes while wet. If the Bordens had any lye solution which might have been used in conjunction with the laundry, it could have been used to clean the hatchet. Andrew might have been tight enough to insist that ashes not be wasted, either. He might well remember hog rendering time when the soap was made. I don't know if the chemical reaction would have cleaned fresh blood while leaving dried blood, though, but it might if there was not much scrubbing done. Throwing the hatchet into a pile of ashes would tend to conceal the fact that lye had been used on it.

[Yooper]

Yes, the kitchen is all the way down at the east end of the house, the guestroom as far west as you can go and one floor up. This is when there were plaster walls and lathing and good old granite foundations. The entire second floor was carpeted as was the downstairs except for the kitchen-so you can see why the guestroom was ideal. Had Abby been in her own room above the kitchen, and Lizzie states she spent the better part of that time period in the kitchen- Lizzie's goose would have been cooked because you can even smell the coffee brewing in the Borden's room overhead, and the toilet flushing is heard, and feet on the floor and loud sounds. No, the guestroom was the PERFECT spot for the deed- and may not have been unintentional! I have made a slide presentation on Warps and Wefts called Through the Eyes of a Killer which follows a killer through the house, showing the doors and path exactly an intruder would have had to take. http://sanctaflora.wordpress.com/page/2/

So, the kitchen was the best room to be in if someone needed to be unaware of activities in the guest room! Kinda like the hayloft with respect to the sitting room, no?

[Shelley]

"So, the kitchen was the best room to be in if someone needed to be unaware of activities in the guest room! Kinda like the hayloft with respect to the sitting room, no?"

As usual, we are on the same page my old friend!

[Yooper]

"So, the kitchen was the best room to be in if someone needed to be unaware of activities in the guest room! Kinda like the hayloft with respect to the sitting room, no?"

As usual, we are on the same page my old friend!

The same pattern may be true with the inconsistency in the the timing for the towels in the basement. Lizzie said three or four days, Bridget said if they had been there on washday, she would have washed them. If Lizzie needed to "distance" herself from a pail taken down on Thursday, she might have said "three or four days".

[Shelley]

Yes indeedie- that thought had occured to me as well. I think her second trip to the cellar, and the slop pail full of soiled napkins all were "dangerous territory" to be avoided if at all possible. Bridget was in the cellar every day and surely would have SEEN that pail if it had been there Mon- Wed near the sink in the washroom.

[chuckciao]

Yes, the kitchen is all the way down at the east end of the house, the guestroom as far west as you can go and one floor up. This is when there were plaster walls and lathing and good old granite foundations. The entire second floor was carpeted as was the downstairs except for the kitchen-so you can see why the guestroom was ideal. Had Abby been in her own room above the kitchen, and Lizzie states she spent the better part of that time period in the kitchen- Lizzie's goose would have been cooked because you can even smell the coffee brewing in the Borden's room overhead, and the toilet flushing is heard, and feet on the floor and loud sounds. No, the guestroom was the PERFECT spot for the deed- and may not have been unintentional! I have made a slide presentation on Warps and Wefts called Through the Eyes of a Killer which follows a killer through the house, showing the doors and path exactly an intruder would have had to take. http://sanctaflora.wordpress.com/page/2/

Shelley,
Great tour and great site!
Thanks
Chuckciao

[Shelley]

Thanks Chuck- I really enjoy putting together images and making some sort of presentation of this material. Nothing will ever replace the written word, but I am at heart a visual person and get a lot out of expressing thoughts and ideas in this way. The story seems very real when you can see the actual places where history happened.

[FairhavenGuy]

Yooper, if the handleless hatchet was the hatchet, it could have easily been rinsed and dipped in ashes by Lizzie before Bridget was called. But I'm not sure that it's the right weapon anyway. I don't see much use in entertaining ideas about lye and soap and frugal Andrew rendering hog fat.

Shelley, thanks for recounting your experiences with the various noise experiments. Bridget clearly seems to have been out of earshot of both murders. Lizzie tries like heck to make authorities believe she was out of earshot, too, but then Bridget places her up the front stairs when Andrew came home and her excuse about being in the barn doesn't make enough sense.

[Yooper]

One other consideration regarding the hatchet: could the handleless hatchet have been a red herring while the actual murder weapon hatchet head was concealed in the pail?

[FairhavenGuy]

Heck, you could have stuck Abby's head in the pail with a bloody rag over it and nobody would have poked around for it.

Late Victorian sensibilities regarding bloody rags and slop pails can account for a lot of overlooked evidence in this case.

[Yooper]

Please forgive my harping on the subject of the hatchet here. The problem is: since a randomly purchased hatchet did not fit the wounds at the trial, what were the odds of finding a hatchet head which did fit the wounds exactly, in the Borden house? Now compound that with the odds that the hatchet found had been recently broken and rolled in ashes, and found in a location with other dust covered implements. Pretty skinny odds!

[Angel]

But then, what about the gilt flaking?

[FairhavenGuy]

Virtually all hatchets in the late 19th century were mass produced in great quantities. And hatchets for various uses were probably made to similar specifications between manufacturers. Basically, hatchets for similar tasks probably had relatively standard, similar blade sizes.

I'm just guessing here, but any of the different hatchets found in the Borden House probably had hundreds of virtually identical cousins throughout Fall River and the rest of the country.

Wasn't there also a claw-headed hatchet that was a very close or better match to the wounds?

In any event, this thread is about Bridget and what she may have lied about or covered up, not hatchet heads.

I think Bridget may have downplayed tensions that might have existed between family members. She have have kept quiet about "unknown" issues or events that may have led to the crimes. (Any of the theorized boyfriends, gilfriends, incest, abuse, seizures, "spells," etc. could be things Bridget might have known or heard of if, in fact, any of them existed.) Bridget might have helped with a little clean-up or evidence removal after the fact.

I agree with whoever said that Bridget might have played some role connected with Andrew's death without being aware that Abby was dead.

If Bridget had any role at all in the crimes, she was not alone. Lizzie absolutely was aware that Abby had not gone out and that she could be found upstairs in less than perfect health.

[Shelley]

Sometimes I think far too much is made of those gilt particles. There were surgical tools, measuring instruments, and who knows what else which may have had metallic residue. The crime scene, autopsy scene, etc. were not hermetically sealed and operating room spotless. I had a theory once that maybe hairpins, which often had metallic tips could have been the gilt culprit, for Abby sure had plenty of those in her hair. The FRHS has the hairpins I am told, and someone here I think said they were not metallic. Her head was also shaved in back with a metal razor and scissors so the wounds could be measured. Don't forget Winward and his assistants also had to clean up and move the body around also- so I think to say that a new hatchet was used because new hatchets have a thin edging of gilt material may be a stretch. That thin edging of metallic gilt would of necessity have been GONE once a new hatchet was sharpened-and there can be no doubt the weapon used on Abby and Andrew was PLENTY sharp. No, I don't assign much importance to that one small observation because there are too many possibilities.

[Yooper]

Bridget had her future to think about and blowing the whistle on the Bordens would not improve her employment prospects. Lizzie involving Bridget in a cover up puts an awful lot of trust in someone Lizzie couldn't even call by her proper name. In my opinion, if Bridget posed any kind of a threat to Lizzie through what she might tell the authorities, it makes more sense to kill her rather than trust her. They can only hang you once.

[shakiboo]

That's very true Yooper, so makes you wonder what was going through her mind. but then again, when it came to a hand to hand struggle, I'd put my money on Bridget! And if Lizzie missed the first time, there'd been hell to pay, cuz Bridget wasn't old and out of shape.

[Angel]

That really makes sense. Lizzie was so secretive about everything in her life. I don't think she would have trusted anyone to have arranged someone else to do the deed. So it would stand to reason that she wouldn't trust Bridget to keep her mouth shut. That's why I don't think Bridget was in cahoots. I think anything Bridget might have felt guilty about was that she eventually put the pieces together and then kept her suspicions to herself. This probably ate at her during her whole life that she didn't say anything to anyone.

[Yooper]

That really makes sense. Lizzie was so secretive about everything in her life. I don't think she would have trusted anyone to have arranged someone else to do the deed. So it would stand to reason that she wouldn't trust Bridget to keep her mouth shut. That's why I don't think Bridget was in cahoots. I think anything Bridget might have felt guilty about was that she eventually put the pieces together and then kept her suspicions to herself. This probably ate at her during her whole life that she didn't say anything to anyone.

Angel, I think you've nailed it!

[Yooper]

That's very true Yooper, so makes you wonder what was going through her mind. but then again, when it came to a hand to hand struggle, I'd put my money on Bridget! And if Lizzie missed the first time, there'd been hell to pay, cuz Bridget wasn't old and out of shape.

That's a point, but it would be hand to hatchet, and Lizzie was getting better at head bashing by the minute!

[FairhavenGuy]

If Bridget was actively involved in a cover-up, and that's still an "if" in my book, I don't think it was something preplanned by Lizzie, but something that grew out of necessity.

If Bridget caught on to or stumbled upon the truth early enough, the survival of BOTH Lizzie and Bridget might have required a degree of cooperation.

[Shelley]

I think the fact that Bridget drops off the face of the earth right after the trial and for 2 years after says plenty. She surfaces far away in Montana in 1896. Now, where did she go and WHY? I think we might be able to conjecture. . .