There was in the barn a secret that must be covered

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:16 pm

Abby was dead at the time that Lizzie told Andrew she had a note and had gone. Lizzie didn't hear Abby do anything since about 9:30 that morning. Lizzie might have heard an intruder leaving. Andrew had to be let in when he arrived, the door was triple locked. Officer Allen, the first to respond, found the front door triple locked when he first arrived. Bridget testified that Andrew closed the front door after she let him in, so either he or Lizzie triple locked it. The only way an intruder could have left the house was through the rear door. Carefully look over the testimony to figure out when Lizzie could have heard an intruder leaving.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:37 am

Aamartin wrote:First of all, I want Lizzie to be innocent.

I am more convinced for her innocence but not because I want Lizzie to be innocent. I was indeed pretty sure that she did kill Abby and her father: many indications seem to prove her guilt. Then, little by little, I changed my mind.

Did she kill for money? If there were really a will being not in her favor, why Lizzie didn't kill only Abby? Just for changing the life conditions to kill her father? The later was already more than 70, an advanced age unusual for that time. Why Lizzie could not continue to wait some more time, just as she had been waiting until she was 32 years old? She had been living with her older sister who was more than 40! Together they should have adapted themself very well to the every day's routine. To kill her father only for having telephone or other facilitie more quickly? I have really difficulty to believe this. She had to kill only Abby to ensure her money to be safe, didn't she?

Am I totally wrong?

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:43 am

Franz,

Think this through. If she just killed Abby:

1. There is a good chance her father would have suspected that she was the killer. He might have turned against her, but even if he didn't (we can't know what Andrew might have done if faced with the murder of his wife at his daughter's hand) then the law might have also suspected Lizzie was the probably culprit and charged her.

2. If Lizzie and Emma waited...and Andrew died first (he was 7 years old than Abby, so this is not unrealistic to speculate) then his estate and all his assets fall to ABBY. Then when she dies, they would go to HER next of kin...probably her sister, Mrs. Whitehead, and possibly her children (can't remember who they were).

No, she had to kill Abby and then her father....in that order.

All we have is the evidence. I use Occams Razor...the simplest explanation if usually correct. Lizzie had Means, Motive, and Opportunity. No, I'm convinced she did it...but I'm also convinced she had help.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:16 am

Hello NancyDrew. I probaly didn't explain well. If Lizzie killed only Abby, with the Abby's death the second point you mentioned would not occur. The suspicion on Lizzie, if I understand well, was due especially to her father's death. if Lizzie really premeditated the killing and wanted to kill only Abby, she would have had more chance to be acquited (she was eventually aquited even there were two murders.)

The motive is not an evidence. It is imagined by the people.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:39 am

I don't believe Lizzie heard Abby come in, or that she even thought she heard Abby come in. I think this statement was made to get others looking for Abby's body so it could be found. If Lizzie had killed Abby but left Andrew alive, I believe he would have suspected that she had done it. Her father would have seen she was inside that house with Abby when she was killed. No matter what the motive was Andrew was no fool he would have suspected Lizzie. Lizzie was 32 years old and had already waited all that time. She was living with a step mother that by all accounts she could not stand, in living standards that she felt were below her means. I can think that would be a reason for her to want to kill her father for the money if that is what she wanted and not wait until she was almost 50 years old to do it. He could have lived another ten to twenty years. He could have made a will that left her with nothing if he so chose. He could have left everything to Abby.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:02 pm

I didn't find any document that could convince me that Lizzie couldn't stand her stepmother was not more than a speculation.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:14 pm

Franz wrote:I didn't find any document that could convince me that Lizzie couldn't stand her stepmother was not more than a speculation.

Sorry, maybe I made a grammar mistake, I would say: I didn't find any document that could convince me that Lizzie couldn't stand her stepmother was more than a speculation. So I mean, it seems to me only a speculation. Lizzie didn't love her stepmother, it was true. She didn't search to hide to Mr. Knowlton the lack of love between her and Abby. If she were the author of the killing, she more likely would not have had such a courage to face this. I would like to post a topic to discuss especially her inquest testimony.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:24 pm

Trial Testimony of Hannah H. Gifford page 1169:

Q. Now Mrs. Gifford, will you state the talk, what you said and what she said?

A. I was speaking to her of a garment I had made for Mrs. Borden, and instead of saying
"Mrs. Borden" I said "Mother" and she says, "don't say that to me, for she is a mean,
good for nothing thing." I said, "oh Lizzie, you don't mean that?" And she said, "yes, I
don't have much to do with her; I stay in my room most of the time." And I said, "you
come down to your meals, don't you?" And she said, "yes, but we don't eat with them if
we can help it." And that is all that was said.

Hannah Gifford made cloaks for the Borden women. According to her testimony she had done so for about seven or eight years. This is not the only instance of testimony I could find that shows Lizzie's distaste for Mrs. Borden. But it is the best example in my opinion. Lizzie was not an impetuous teenager expressing her displeasure by saying she hates her mother. Lizzie was a 30+ year old grown woman expressing her clear distaste for her step mother.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:00 pm

According to Lizzie's testimony she heard nothing, so she didn't hear anyone enter or leave. Furthermore, it never occurred to Lizzie that she might have heard an intruder leaving. If, in her mind, she knew she had heard something she thought was Abby, and if Abby had been dead since 9:30, then why would she not make that connection and mention it to the police?

Andrew could have disinherited Lizzie or Lizzie and Emma if he thought Lizzie killed Abby, so with Abby dead, he pretty well had to go, too. I think this was the reason for telling Bridget about a sale on dress goods, an attempt to get Bridget out of the house so Lizzie might be alone with Andrew. Bridget did the next best thing by going to her room. The penalty for two murders was the same as for one murder.

Under Massachusetts law at the time, if Andrew died intestate and Abby survived him, Abby would have had the interest from a portion of Andrew's estate set aside for that reason for the rest of Abby's life. That portion set aside to generate interest would have reverted to Lizzie and Emma upon Abby's death. I don't know if Lizzie or Emma were aware of the inheritance law.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Hello Allen. Even Lizzie did kill Abby and Andrew, why did she want Abby’s body to be found at that moment with her curious indication (I heard Abby return)? In any case her body would be found, in 10 minutes, half an hour, or one hour. I just don’t see the difference. She could have stuck her note story without adding nothing, and then, after the discovery, said: “Oh! I don’t know when she returned.” If she were the murderess, she should know that such a declaration could draw more suspicion on her (as it happened). So for me it should not be impossible that Lizzie misunderstood some noise.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:49 pm

If Lizzie were the murderess and premeditated the killing, why didn't she invent a story, saying: "Oh! before I entered in the house and found my father's body, I saw a man running out of the house. It happened so quickly that I didn't see well his face. He dispeared in that direction..."

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:56 pm

Yooper wrote: I think this was the reason for telling Bridget about a sale on dress goods, an attempt to get Bridget out of the house so Lizzie might be alone with Andrew.

Hello Yooper. In saying so, you mean that, if Lizzie were the murderess, Bridget had nothing to do with all the matter, right?

If one were convinced for Lizzie's guilt, he / she can certainly find in the dress goods conversation an attempt of Lizzie to get Bridget out of the house. If not, it was only a very very common conversation subject that occurred often, I think, between Lizzie, Emma and Bridget.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:17 pm

It seems an odd thing to invent if Bridget was involved, a story about a sale. It wasn't necessary by any means, all Bridget had to say was she went to her room. Yes, I believe Lizzie acted on her own without involving Bridget.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:30 pm

Yooper wrote:It seems an odd thing to invent if Bridget was involved, a story about a sale. It wasn't necessary by any means, all Bridget had to say was she went to her room. Yes, I believe Lizzie acted on her own without involving Bridget.

Yes, Yooper, you are absolutely right. I agree with you, with the exception of your last phrase.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Franz wrote:Hello Allen. Even Lizzie did kill Abby and Andrew, why did she want Abby’s body to be found at that moment with her curious indication (I heard Abby return)? In any case her body would be found, in 10 minutes, half an hour, or one hour. I just don’t see the difference. She could have stuck her note story without adding nothing, and then, after the discovery, said: “Oh! I don’t know when she returned.” If she were the murderess, she should know that such a declaration could draw more suspicion on her (as it happened). So for me it should not be impossible that Lizzie misunderstood some noise.

Bridget had offered to go out and try to find Mrs. Borden just before Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in. No one was thinking to look for her in the house because of Lizzie's story about the note. They believed Mrs. Borden was not at home. Lizzie had to direct the search back to the house. I believe she wanted to get things moving and get both bodies found. She probably also wanted to get upstairs to her room away from all the prying eyes watching her. But I doubt she wanted to be the one to 'find' Abby herself. She couldn't get upstairs until the body was found, and nobody was thinking to look in the house for Abby. These are her reasons, in my opinion, that she claimed to have heard Abby come in.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:10 pm

Allen, I think I understand well what you mean, but I doubt if I agree with you...

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:37 pm

Franz wrote:If Lizzie were the murderess and premeditated the killing, why didn't she invent a story, saying: "Oh! before I entered in the house and found my father's body, I saw a man running out of the house. It happened so quickly that I didn't see well his face. He dispeared in that direction..."

She covered that when she invented the story about being in the barn, where she saw and heard nothing. I guess even Lizzie thought it too far fetched to expect someone to run from the Borden house unnoticed!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:47 am

Close your eyes and put your imagination caps on...EVEN if you think she is innocent, this is a "what if" ----
You know your step-mother is dead upstairs in a place that as soon as ANYONE got to the top of the stairs, they could see to their left part of her body. The house is filling up with police and people now...what do you do? I think I would say. "Hey? where is my step mother? and leave it at that.
What would you guys do? remember just a "what if" even if you think she is innocent... would you "accidentally" find her yourself, ask where is she, say nothing? something else?

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:27 pm

The "hearing nothing" is quite remarkable here. I read somewhere (Lincoln?) that Lizzie claimed she heard a scrape, groan, something like that, when she was in the yard...is this substantiated anywhere?

It is a rather gruesome thought, but could 2 brutal murders really be silent? As in, produce no sound, nothing, not a thud, scream, whimper, groan...???

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:04 pm

Lizzie told Bridget that she heard a groan. She told officer Mullaly she heard a scraping sound. She told Dr. Bowen and officers Doherty and Harrington she heard nothing.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:30 pm

I don't want to be more gruesome-- but it had to make a sickening noise-- like hitting a melon-- only worse

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:29 am

Could a very strong (and furious) person (a man?) kill the victims with the very first blow? In this case, it should not be impossible that the two victims had no time to react at all. All finished in a second only.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:51 am

Yooper wrote:Lizzie told Bridget that she heard a groan. She told officer Mullaly she heard a scraping sound. She told Dr. Bowen and officers Doherty and Harrington she heard nothing.

I think it's odd that she told Bridget that she heard a groan, told Officer Mullaly she heard a scraping sound, but told Dr. Bowen and Officers Doherty and Harrington she nothing. Then in her testimony she said she heard nothing. She couldn't keep her statements straight. I am wondering why no one picked up on it. Maybe they did?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:01 pm

If Lizzie heard a groan, then she heard a groan no matter who is questioning her and her answer should remain the same. The same is true for a scraping sound. A groan does not change to a scraping sound or vice versa. There is no way to have forgotten she heard nothing, to have mistaken hearing nothing for hearing a sound of any kind. Lizzie's story goes from having heard something to having heard nothing, in that order, an impossible progression. The only possible truth left is for Lizzie to have in fact heard nothing.

There were any number of noises to be heard, traffic on Second Street, men working in the yard cornerwise across the rear yard, etc.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:15 pm

Franz wrote:Could a very strong (and furious) person (a man?) kill the victims with the very first blow? In this case, it should not be impossible that the two victims had no time to react at all. All finished in a second only.

I think a man would be more likely to swing the hatchet only once rather than multiple times. I also think the weight of the murder weapon was overestimated. Most hatchets have a head weighing between one and two pounds rather than the five pound estimate given during the trial. There was certainly a much greater variety of hatchets available in 1892, they were a much more common tool back then. But, to get an idea about what they were talking about, we can perform an experiment. What we need is a relatively large hardware store, one which carries drilling hammers. This is a short handled sledge hammer varying in weight between two and four pounds ordinarily. Pick up a four pound drilling hammer and swing it like a hatchet for twenty or thirty repetitions, keeping in mind that there is no "bounce" with a hatchet as there is with a hammer. A man swinging a five pound hatchet would have put it through Andrew's head and through the arm of the couch!

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:31 pm

Yooper: Wasn't there a scientific opinion offered by someone at Harvard (where the skulls were sent, correct?) who remarked that the assailant must have been weak, that the blows were made by someone NOT of great strength?

We're really off topic here, but the number of blows has always struck me as extremely significant. Pick up any object (a stapler, a pen) and pretend its an axe. Now bring it up and down, swinging, as it to strike someone. Do that eighteen times. It's exhausting. And it feels...like overkill. Even 11 swings is a lot.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:43 pm

Yup, it seems to me to be over kill to me too. And very tiring.
Someone was awfully angry.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:57 pm

All the testimony I remember stated that a woman of ordinary strength could have delivered the blows. Seriously, try the experiment with the drilling hammer to realize firsthand what was suggested at the trial.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:27 pm

Yooper wrote:
I think a man would be more likely to swing the hatchet only once rather than multiple times.

Yooper, I think you are right. The number of the blows could be explained by a great hate. Being more convinced for Lizzie's innocence, I find A. Brown's theory interesting. I never read his book, but I watched a documentary in Youtube. In my opinion, William Borden's hate towards Abby and Andrew is more probable: oh, you, Abby, you usurped my mother's position; you, Andrew, why didn't you want to recognize me as your son? Today my hatchet will speak for me! He probably killed Abby and Andrew wih the first (or two) blow (s), and the others were only given to release himself from his anger.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:11 pm

Neither a hatchet nor an ax weighs 5lbs. I have a 5lb Maul for spitting wood, and It is extremely heavy to heave over my head and hit a piece of wood. There is NO way the murder weapon was that. It would have splintered his head, the couch arm, and gone right into the floor. Even with a 1.5lb hatchet one vicious blow to the occipital area on the back of their heads could drop them unconscious.
The problem I see is that Mrs. Borden would have seen the murderer come from the top of the stairs into the room and the other side of the bed. A stranger carrying an ax would have illicited a blood-curdling scream...a step-daughter with a hatchet concealed behind her dress would not have...

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:22 pm

I think that there were a lot of people that were very fond of Andrew, so the suspect pool in that sense is wide open, to include Lizzie. But what about Abby? The ones that weren't real crazy about Abby were Lizzie and Emma.

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:35 am

PossumPie wrote:The problem I see is that Mrs. Borden would have seen the murderer come from the top of the stairs into the room and the other side of the bed. A stranger carrying an ax would have illicited a blood-curdling scream...a step-daughter with a hatchet concealed behind her dress would not have...

Unless the killer was already in the guest room hiding/waiting for Abby to come in. If this were the case, I believe it had to be someone who was familiar w/Abby's daily routine - especially after a guest - John Morse - had stayed in the room overnight. Had they known Abby would go upstairs to tidy up the room since it had been slept in the night before? Was Abby down on her knees fixing the corners of the sheet and/or bedspread when the killer crept up behind her? Hearing or sensing that someone was behind her, did she turn her head only to have the first blow strike her on the forehead, causing the flap wound? Perhaps she didn't have time to scream or cry out. If she were on her knees when the first blow struck, that would explain her body not making a thud when she "fell".

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:48 am

If the killer was waiting for Abby to come in, that makes Abby the primary target rather than Andrew. Anyone familiar enough with the daily routine would know that Andrew rarely visited the guest room, if at all. The guest room is not a viable place to wait for Andrew if the killer wanted to catch him by surprise. That brings us back to the question: Who hated Abby enough to kill her in that manner?

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:05 am

Yooper wrote:If the killer was waiting for Abby to come in, that makes Abby the primary target rather than Andrew. Anyone familiar enough with the daily routine would know that Andrew rarely visited the guest room, if at all. The guest room is not a viable place to wait for Andrew if the killer wanted to catch him by surprise. That brings us back to the question: Who hated Abby enough to kill her in that manner?

IMO, I believe the killer was already hiding/waiting in the guest room for Abby. Abby was the primary target. Now I'm not 100% sure that the killer was Lizzie - although I'm also not 100% convinced that she wasn't. As we all know, there is a lot of circumstantial "evidence" to convict her at least in the court of public opinion. She could've acted alone or she could've hired someone to do the awful deed. But, regardless of who did it, I feel strongly that Abby was the intended target.

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:12 am

I had the good fortune to stay at the Lizzie Borden B&B back in the early 2000s & I stayed overnight in the John Morse guest room. Since the furniture in the bedroom was laid out the way it was the day of the murders, it was easy for me to imagine Abby coming into the room to dust & make the bed, her dusting cap propped atop her head as she set to work on the mundane chore. I could almost visualize her kneeling at the foot of the bed (facing the wall between the bed & dresser), fixing the corners of the sheet & bedspread. And I could also visualize the killer having already been in the room, waiting for her before viciously springing into action. Let's just say it sent chills up my spine trying to imagine the possible scenario. And the painting of John Morse that was on the wall didn't help to soothe me - his eyes were chilling in that painting.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:32 am

The one fact which calls the "kneeling" scenario to question is the glancing hatchet blow to the side of Abby's head. It created a flap of skin which included the ear and it was thought to have come from the front. I don't know if there is a way for that wound to have come from behind, or maybe from the side? Otherwise, Abby kneeling by the foot of the bed makes perfect sense, less distance to fall, and it tends to immobilize her. It also implies the killer was probably not in the room when Abby arrived there. Where would a stranger hide within the room in order to go unnoticed by Abby long enough for Abby to enter, kneel down, and begin whatever she was doing with the bed?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:56 am

dalcanton wrote:... Abby was the primary target. Now I'm not 100% sure that the killer was Lizzie - although I'm also not 100% convinced that she wasn't. As we all know, there is a lot of circumstantial "evidence" to convict her at least in the court of public opinion. She could've acted alone or she could've hired someone to do the awful deed. But, regardless of who did it, I feel strongly that Abby was the intended target.

I totally agree! I have always thought that Abby was the primary target, because of the number of blows she received (19) compared to the number of blows Andrew received (10).

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:51 pm

I have several problems with the killer already waiting for Abby in the guest room. He needed a cloak of invisibility and a psychic. This person would have had to get into the house while everyone was still at home in order to have time to hide before Abby went up there. Since you have spent the night at the house, as I have also in the guestroom, you know the lay out. So this person supposedly navigated a house where all of the rooms open up into each other. He must have gone through the kitchen, where Lizzie and Bridget were, carrying an ax on his person. Then he had to have gone through the dining room and sitting room, where Andrew, Abby and Uncle John were, to the stairs in the front hall. There is no other way to the front hall stairs with the front door locked. Then get to the second floor, to the room with the only unlocked door on that entire floor, and there is no place to even hide in that room. Then it had to be someone who knew Abby so well he knew she was going to be upstairs in a room she usually had no reason to go in to, cleaning up after a guest nobody expected that had shown up unannounced the day before that. Unless the killer was hiding behind the door there was no place to hide. And unless he wore a cloak of invisibility how would he get upstairs without being seen?

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:05 pm

Yooper wrote:The one fact which calls the "kneeling" scenario to question is the glancing hatchet blow to the side of Abby's head. It created a flap of skin which included the ear and it was thought to have come from the front. I don't know if there is a way for that wound to have come from behind, or maybe from the side? Otherwise, Abby kneeling by the foot of the bed makes perfect sense, less distance to fall, and it tends to immobilize her. It also implies the killer was probably not in the room when Abby arrived there. Where would a stranger hide within the room in order to go unnoticed by Abby long enough for Abby to enter, kneel down, and begin whatever she was doing with the bed?

You bring up a good point about where a killer would hide in the room. I have 2 possibilities. If I seem to recall (and I could very well be wrong since I stayed @ the B&B almost 10 years ago!), didn't the door to the guest room open inward to the left? That would be a perfect hiding place - behind the door. Also, wasn't there an armoire positioned to the left of the door as well? Could someone have hid beside it - furthest from the door? It's just conjecture, but Abby could've hurried in, not really paying attention to that side/wall of the room & made her way quickly to the bed/dresser to begin her chores. So, the killer could've hid on that side of the room while Abby went directly across to the other side of the room. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall in the guest room that day!!!

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:55 pm

Allen wrote:I have several problems with the killer already waiting for Abby in the guest room. He needed a cloak of invisibility and a psychic. This person would have had to get into the house while everyone was still at home in order to have time to hide before Abby went up there. Since you have spent the night at the house, as I have also in the guestroom, you know the lay out. So this person supposedly navigated a house where all of the rooms open up into each other. He must have gone through the kitchen, where Lizzie and Bridget were, carrying an ax on his person. Then he had to have gone through the dining room and sitting room, where Andrew, Abby and Uncle John were, to the stairs in the front hall. There is no other way to the front hall stairs with the front door locked. Then get to the second floor, to the room with the only unlocked door on that entire floor, and there is no place to even hide in that room. Then it had to be someone who knew Abby so well he knew she was going to be upstairs in a room she usually had no reason to go in to, cleaning up after a guest nobody expected that had shown up unannounced the day before that. Unless the killer was hiding behind the door there was no place to hide. And unless he wore a cloak of invisibility how would he get upstairs without being seen?

Very good points! But if the killer were Lizzie, she wouldn’t need a cloak of invisibility (now I’m reminded of Harry Potter!) because her presence in the house was to be expected – she lived there. Now, if Lizzie hired the murderer, again she could’ve navigated him up to the guest room, surmising Abby would indeed go up there. Of course, if the guilty party were someone else (& Lizzie was innocent of his involvement), then you’re right. It would be very difficult for him to get through that house undetected. IMO, I’m assuming Lizzie was the killer or at least knew who it was & she “looked the other way.”

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:59 pm

Also, the guest room was the best place to kill Abby because - assuming he/she knew Abby would go up there - the room was on the 2nd floor & was perfect to "trap" Abby there w/o witnesses. Since Emma & was away & Bridget was outside, there was little chance anyone would go up into the room except Abby. Even if Andrew returned home, he was very unlikely to go up so the only other likely person would have been Uncle John.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:00 pm

It's really quite a chore to involve an intruder or a hired killer, or an accomplice of any kind. The contortions necessary, the compound coincidences, boggle the mind! Most of us get to the point where, either all that foolishness is true, or Lizzie did it!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:44 pm

dalcanton wrote:
PossumPie wrote:The problem I see is that Mrs. Borden would have seen the murderer come from the top of the stairs into the room and the other side of the bed. A stranger carrying an ax would have illicited a blood-curdling scream...a step-daughter with a hatchet concealed behind her dress would not have...
Unless the killer was already in the guest room hiding/waiting for Abby to come in. If this were the case, I believe it had to be someone who was familiar w/Abby's daily routine - especially after a guest - John Morse - had stayed in the room overnight. Had they known Abby would go upstairs to tidy up the room since it had been slept in the night before? Was Abby down on her knees fixing the corners of the sheet and/or bedspread when the killer crept up behind her? Hearing or sensing that someone was behind her, did she turn her head only to have the first blow strike her on the forehead, causing the flap wound? Perhaps she didn't have time to scream or cry out. If she were on her knees when the first blow struck, that would explain her body not making a thud when she "fell".

Hey dalcanton, generally speaking, I agree with you for your conjecture. But the killer, I suppose, could enter, not hiding already, in the room, without making a noise big enough to be heard by Abby.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:00 pm

dalcanton wrote:
Yooper wrote:If the killer was waiting for Abby to come in, that makes Abby the primary target rather than Andrew. Anyone familiar enough with the daily routine would know that Andrew rarely visited the guest room, if at all. The guest room is not a viable place to wait for Andrew if the killer wanted to catch him by surprise. That brings us back to the question: Who hated Abby enough to kill her in that manner?
IMO, I believe the killer was already hiding/waiting in the guest room for Abby. Abby was the primary target. Now I'm not 100% sure that the killer was Lizzie - although I'm also not 100% convinced that she wasn't. As we all know, there is a lot of circumstantial "evidence" to convict her at least in the court of public opinion. She could've acted alone or she could've hired someone to do the awful deed. But, regardless of who did it, I feel strongly that Abby was the intended target.

I am not sure at all if the killer was already waiting inside or he went into the guest room after, but I think that Abby probably wasn’t the primary target, she became the first victim only chronologically. Her received 19 blows (vs 10 received by Andrew) meant nothing: because the killer – if there were an intruder - had more time to kill Abby (after the killing he would still wait Andrew’s return), but he must escape as quickly as possible when he had killed Andrew.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:03 pm

dalcanton wrote:I had the good fortune to stay at the Lizzie Borden B&B back in the early 2000s & I stayed overnight in the John Morse guest room. Since the furniture in the bedroom was laid out the way it was the day of the murders, it was easy for me to imagine Abby coming into the room to dust & make the bed, her dusting cap propped atop her head as she set to work on the mundane chore. I could almost visualize her kneeling at the foot of the bed (facing the wall between the bed & dresser), fixing the corners of the sheet & bedspread. And I could also visualize the killer having already been in the room, waiting for her before viciously springing into action. Let's just say it sent chills up my spine trying to imagine the possible scenario. And the painting of John Morse that was on the wall didn't help to soothe me - his eyes were chilling in that painting.

Oh my god!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:08 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
dalcanton wrote:... Abby was the primary target. Now I'm not 100% sure that the killer was Lizzie - although I'm also not 100% convinced that she wasn't. As we all know, there is a lot of circumstantial "evidence" to convict her at least in the court of public opinion. She could've acted alone or she could've hired someone to do the awful deed. But, regardless of who did it, I feel strongly that Abby was the intended target.
I totally agree! I have always thought that Abby was the primary target, because of the number of blows she received (19) compared to the number of blows Andrew received (10).

Abby received 19 blows, Andrew 10, but this difference, in my opinion, meant nothing: if the killer were an intruder, he had more time to kill Abby (after the killing he would still wait Andrew’s return), but he must escape as quickly as possible when he had killed Andrew.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:27 pm

dalcanton wrote:Also, the guest room was the best place to kill Abby because - assuming he/she knew Abby would go up there - the room was on the 2nd floor & was perfect to "trap" Abby there w/o witnesses. Since Emma & was away & Bridget was outside, there was little chance anyone would go up into the room except Abby. Even if Andrew returned home, he was very unlikely to go up so the only other likely person would have been Uncle John.

Generally speaking I agree with you: the guest room was the best place to kill Abby, it was also the best place for the killer to hide himself (if there were an intruder) - from there he could control the entries of the house and could know when Andrew returned. But I think that probably the guest room became the first murder's place only by "chance", by coincidence: the intruder could be very very lucky that day, the August 4th 1892 was really his day.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:05 pm

dalcanton wrote:
Yooper wrote:The one fact which calls the "kneeling" scenario to question is the glancing hatchet blow to the side of Abby's head. It created a flap of skin which included the ear and it was thought to have come from the front. I don't know if there is a way for that wound to have come from behind, or maybe from the side? Otherwise, Abby kneeling by the foot of the bed makes perfect sense, less distance to fall, and it tends to immobilize her. It also implies the killer was probably not in the room when Abby arrived there. Where would a stranger hide within the room in order to go unnoticed by Abby long enough for Abby to enter, kneel down, and begin whatever she was doing with the bed?
You bring up a good point about where a killer would hide in the room. I have 2 possibilities. If I seem to recall (and I could very well be wrong since I stayed @ the B&B almost 10 years ago!), didn't the door to the guest room open inward to the left? That would be a perfect hiding place - behind the door. Also, wasn't there an armoire positioned to the left of the door as well? Could someone have hid beside it - furthest from the door? It's just conjecture, but Abby could've hurried in, not really paying attention to that side/wall of the room & made her way quickly to the bed/dresser to begin her chores. So, the killer could've hid on that side of the room while Abby went directly across to the other side of the room. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall in the guest room that day!!!

Behind the door is a possibility if Abby was preoccupied enough, or perhaps in a hurry. A determined assailant can cover 20 feet in a heartbeat, so if Abby sensed no danger, she might not have been aware of an attack until the last split second. If Abby was kneeling and occupied with something near floor level, her line of sight would have been below the bed and she might not have seen an initial movement. By the time she heard something and turned to look, it was too late. Is it possible that Abby could have turned to some degree while on her knees? Maybe if she turned at the waist to see what was going on behind her, and the assailant struck while her head was turned, it might explain the flap of skin at the side of her head, that first misdirected blow.

LouManDude · Post by **LouManDude** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Sorry, but the thought that Lizzy went out to the barn to pleasure herself is laughable. I believe she did go out to the barn, though not in the hay loft, nor the carriage house below, but to the barn privy to dispose of a new hatchet that was used as the murder weapon. She was seen by Hymon Lubinski at approx. 11:05 AM coming from the barn toward the side door of the house. So that would be the only secret that the barn held. Oh and the fact that the victims clothing and the contents of the bloody hip bath were buried behind the barn... three times and dug back back up. However, if the police had taken a closer look at the contents of the hip bath they would have found a bloody apron and several bloody towels. The inventory that was taken when they buried the evidence included the victims clothes that were worn at the time, the doily and pillow from the sofa, the sheet that covered Mr. Borden, three bloody towels and "two" bloody aprons. I don't know why no one else every questioned where the second apron came from, though I think that would help explain the lack of blood splatter on any of the clothing worn by the only other persons in the house at the time. Bridget and Lizzie.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:07 pm

LouManDude wrote:Sorry, but the thought that Lizzy went out to the barn to pleasure herself is laughable.

So, please laugh. But sorry, nothing could guarantee that you can laugh last.