Lizzie's Lies

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am

The more I study this case, the more I am struck by how often Lizzie lied about things. Here is a list (partial, I'm sure) feel free to add:

1. "I've bought prussic acid before" (NOT true)
2. "I don't need a doctor's note to buy it." (also not true)
3. "I need it to clean a sealskin cape." (no known use like that)
4. "Mrs. Borden had a note." (none found, EVER, not even a hint of one, or the messenger who delivered it, or the person who supposedly sent it.)
5. "I'm positive I heard her come in" (uttered by Lizzie when asked where her step-mother was at the crime scene).
6. "I was in the barn"
7. "I was on the stairs"
8. "I was in the kitchen"
9. "I was in the dining room." (they can't ALL be true!)
10. "They thought I"d better change it" http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... quest.html (this one always gets me...Lizzie decides to get out of her Bengaline silk outfit and change into a gaily-printed pink and white striped wrapper with a RED ribbon, because, you know, the first thing I'd think about after discovering the mangled body of my father would be putting on something light and airy...(sarcasm intended.) Anyhow, WHO told her to change? It was never revealed that anyone, not Bridgette, not Alice Russell, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Churchhill, no one I can think of or remember "thought it would be better if I changed." If I have this wrong, please someone correct me.

11. (from the inquest) "I don't think there were any sinkers at the farm. I don't know whether there were or not." and then a few minutes later: "I said the lines at the farm had no sinkers.
12. (from the inquest, regarding discovering her father's body)
"Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not. (If she didn't know if he was dead, why did she cry to Bridgette that someone had "come in and killed [him]?"
13. (again from the inquest...the amount of times she lied during her testimony is really quite impressive in number, imo):
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search upstairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." That is all I said. (LIE: that is NOT "all she said". She said she had gone out, then she said she heard her her come in, THEN she said she didn't know where she was.)

Does anyone else see a pattern here? Lizzie was, in my humble opinion, a pathological liar. I'm not even sure if she knew what was the truth and what was a fabrication. Thoughts?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon May 20, 2013 6:48 pm

I agree with you totally! Lizzie told so many lies, and apparently that is all she had to do back then to be aquitted. Most of her lies can not be proven otherwise, because the only other person in the house that day was Bridget, and she was outside during the murders. She was in total control over all of the activities that went down that day in my opinion, and got very lucky as well.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon May 20, 2013 8:16 pm

Not only did she have total control over the activities that day, she knew exactly what she was doing!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon May 20, 2013 8:46 pm

I guess the slip I like the best is "I'm positive I heard her come in". Note "come" in, not "go" in. I have never heard that logistic transposition made inadvertently. If Lizzie heard Abby "come" in, she was in the house when she heard it. Lizzie told Andrew that Abby was out shortly before she went to the barn, which puts Lizzie outside the house. She entered, found Andrew, and called Bridget. This was the only time Lizzie could have heard Abby "come" in. The front door was triple locked according to officer Allen, the first responder. Lizzie stood in front of the side door and testified she was too upset to see or hear anything between discovering Andrew and calling Bridget. When did Abby "come" in?

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Tue May 21, 2013 10:26 am

Good call! Not only that...if she was "positive" she heard Abby "come in" then why wasn't she frightened that Abby might be in danger?

For me, the favorite slip is "They thought I'd better change." Maybe it is because I'm a woman, I don't know, but to me, changing clothes is important. It would be the LAST thing on my mind if I had just discovered that my father was dead, and then learned my step-mother was laying butchered upstairs as well...right next door to where Lizzie chose the pink-striped wrapper.

Did Lizzie change her clothes before or after the police arrived? Did Alice or Adelaide go with her upstairs to do it?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue May 21, 2013 11:56 pm

Lizzie testified at the inquest that she changed her dress in the afternoon. This would mean that there were police present in the house at the time. I think Alice Russell went along with her.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sat May 25, 2013 6:38 am

Then the police were idiots. Why wouldn't they have kept track of all Lizzie (and Bridgette)'s movements. And when she went upstairs to change her clothes, instructed either her or Alice to "hand over the dress she had been wearing immediately." ??? Were there no police procedures regarding homicides back then? Geez!

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu May 30, 2013 7:23 pm

I agree that the police did a lousy job, but things were different back then. I really don't think they were prepared for such an event and did the best they could given the circumstances. If i remember correctly, they searched the hell out of Bridget's dresses, but had kid gloves on when Miss Lizzie was concerned. I think Lizzie burned a dress underneath the old paint stained dress Emma pointed out that she should get rid of, oh please don't get me started on the dress issue.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:53 pm

She could have been a pathological liar, or she may have been trying to protect someone else. Perhaps this boyfriend that she alluded to at the end of her life to the nurse?

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:38 pm

Hi Angel: I always meant to reply to you and never got around to it; sorry! I think it is definitely possibly that Lizzie was a pathological liar. It's documented that she WAS a shoplifter, no? The Tilden-Thurber incident happened years after the trial..so she had issues. I'll have to do some more reading about women who are liars...its an odd trait, imo. Lizzie fancied herself an upstanding Christian, but that didn't stop her from having sticky fingers.

Now..you brought up a point that doesn't get as much attention as I expected: the boyfriend, David Anthony. According to Gramma, a poster who used to be on this forum (I don't know what happened to her.) I've read and re-read her posts from the archives, and man, she is convincing! According to her, she was told, by Ruby Cameran, (a nurse who cared for Lizzie in the last week of her life) that Lizzie told Ruby her boyfriend, Dave Anthony, had killed her step-parents.

I've read descriptions about Mr. Anthony. He loved motorcycles and was killed in one during an accident. He's been described as quiet, kind, affable...certainly not the type of person capable of brutally hacking 2 people to death.

Could Lizzie have been telling the truth to her nurse, but lying about the name?

I read all these tidbits here and there about neighbors or people in the street who saw a vagrant walking around near the Borden house. Could one of these guys have been Lizzie's boyfriend?

I know I'm kind of all over the place in this post. I'm convinced there is more to know about Lizzie than has been revealed so far. I live very close to Fall River...I think I'm going to mosey on down there and poke around the FRHS. It has occurred to me that it might be fun, on a sunny Sat or Sun, to see if there are any yard sales in Fall River...and also to see if there are any older locals willing to offer opinions or inside knowledge about the case. Worth a try at least!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:40 pm

NancyDrew wrote: I've read descriptions about Mr. Anthony. He loved motorcycles and was killed in one during an accident. He's been described as quiet, kind, affable...certainly not the type of person capable of brutally hacking 2 people to death.

What descriptions did you read about Lizzie? Was she "certainly" the type of person capable of brutally hacking 2 people to death?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:19 am

Lizzie's attorneys did not win the case, the police/commonwealth lost the case. They bumbles, botched, and blew it every step of the way. They asked witnesses questions without knowing how they would answer...you NEVER do that as a lawyer! The police said the ax head ALONE was in the box, then another officer swore that the handle and the ax head were BOTH in the box. The list is endless.
Lizzie most assuredly lied...we know because she told mutually exclusive "facts" to different people, in other words they couldn't both be correct. She was a know kleptomaniac, which doesn't predispose her to murder, but which shows an underlying psychological problem.
I do not believe that she killed them...I've said before when we line up the "known" times of events, she only had less than 15 min. to kill her father, get out of the bloody clothes, hide the murder weapon, and alert Bridget...I am leaning more towards her hiring someone who did it, and directing every stage of the game.
Mrs. Borden was cooler to the touch, her stomach was empty, and her blood was more clotted than Mr. Borden...enough that it was at least an hour before...and perhaps as much as 2 1/2 hrs before he was killed. Any killer hanging around that long would have to have direction/support from Lizzie. That person would have had to been somewhat bright, they never let it slip that they did it and many killers let it slip to at least someone that they killed.
Was Lizzie a liar? yes without a doubt. Little lie, big lie? probably...the killer? not so sure.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:43 am

I think she knew what she was doing to. I'm thinking she was trying to throw the police off the case. I think she knew they were on to her, so she kept telling all kinds of things.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:18 am

@Franz:

I have to be more careful on here not to misspeak or use the wrong words. I should not have used the word "certainly." Upon reflection, what I meant to say was that Mr. Anthony wasn't someone with a criminal past, a history of drinking, brawling, fighting...he was never arrested for any type of violent crime, and he seemed to enjoy his life. I've read relatives of his describing him as someone with a great number of hobbies (boating, taking trips in the countryside, woodworking).

Descriptions of Lizzie are very different than "Lisbeth." Once she inherited all that money and lived at Maplecroft, many people said she was kind, gentle, would bake cookies for neighborhood children. There are, however, stories from folks that would seem to paint a less than rosy picture..

"When she had a falling-out with the Women's Christian Temperance Union and initiated proceedings to evict them from the Andrew J. Borden office building on South Main Street, a spokesperson for the W.C.T.U. told a newspaper reporter, "Miss Lizzie Borden is a physical wreck, and is morbidly sensitive, imagining a thousand and one slights where none were ever dreamed of." - which I guess is understandable, but that description doesn't sound like she made a lot of of progress in putting the past behind her.

The next incident that further tarnished Lizzie's reputation occurred in 1897, when she was accused of shoplifting two paintings from Tilden-Thurber and Co. in Providence, Rhode Island. According to the grandson of Andrew Jennings, Lizzie's attorney, he saw the incident as a final straw and was reported to say, "I will have nothing to do with that woman." While a warrant for her arrest was never served and the matter was settled privately, Lizzie became increasingly isolated, and her reputation was further diminished. -http://www.thelizziebordencollection.co ... borden.php

Before the crime, I've only read tidbits here and there that give me a mental picture of what Lizzie was like. She didn't have much of a life besides church (the Fruit and Flower Mission, right?) She was said to malign her mother to the dress-maker, stopped calling her "mother," didn't eat with the family, probably broke into Abby's dresser and stole some personal items, shoplifted from various FR stores, and could sometimes act "haughty":

"The haughty and cold nature of Lizzie was repellant to most people" (The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 33)

Doesn't it seem to you that Lizzie was an odd and unhappy person? Not well adjusted, not pleased with her lifestyle? I guess I had an easier time believing that someone who is sad, frustrated, stressed, etc might commit an act of violence against another...

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:43 pm

I get a bit frustrated at people who say "he/she couldn't have killed..." or "They were so nice..." That really should not enter into the equation at all. Ted Bundy was a very nice pleasant young man who volunteered on a suicide prevention line. Rev. Jim Jones was loved and accepted by many people including politicians, and President Carter's wife. Nice is the best weapon of the Sociopathic/Antisocial personality disorder patient. Only if people love and trust you can you get away with so much for so long.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:49 pm

Just to play devil's advocate, something about Lizzie's "haughty and cold nature" must have appealed to David Anthony if the story is true. Maybe he wasn't quite what we might expect.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:37 pm

Not sure what you're implying, yooper...'splain, Lucy..

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:26 am

What I mean is maybe David Anthony is less an Andy Hardy type than we think. Otherwise we have the disparity of the "all American boy" and the axe murderess. If the premise is that David Anthony was involved in the murders, then the personality type becomes the variable.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:38 am

I spent yesterday evening re-reading Lizzie's entire testimony at the inquest. Much of her "lies" seem to be simple recollection problems. If any of us were forced to account for our every movement and action on an otherwise uneventful morning, we would contradict. "I was upstairs when Father came in" "I was in the kitchen" If she had gone upstairs to put clean laundry away, came down, went up to baste a tape in a dress, came down, tried to iron handkerchiefs, found the irons not hot, sat to read a magazine, of course she would perhaps get mixed up with the order of events. I am sitting here at 10:30am and tried to account for all my activities this morning. I know I went upstairs a few times for things, but can't remember exactly what followed what.
There are some things she did seem to lie about...That infamous note, the whole country knew Mrs. Borden allegedly got a note and went to see a sick friend. NO ONE came forward either as the person writing it, or as a neighbor who knew Mrs. Borden came over that day. It is beyond reasonable doubt that no such person called for her and no note was written. The lie may not have been to cover up murder, it could be to strengthen her reason for not looking for her step-mother right away. I keep coming back to the fact that the layout of the house with the million doors made it virtually impossible for an intruder to sneak in, kill Mrs. Borden, hide for an hour and a half, sneak back out, kill Mr. Borden, and sneak out of the side door up the path onto the street, and away. It is too far fetched. I am coming more to the conclusion that the "intruder" was aided by Lizzie...ie she got someone to kill them.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:08 pm

PossumPie wrote:I spent yesterday evening re-reading Lizzie's entire testimony at the inquest. Much of her "lies" seem to be simple recollection problems. If any of us were forced to account for our every movement and action on an otherwise uneventful morning, we would contradict. "I was upstairs when Father came in" "I was in the kitchen" If she had gone upstairs to put clean laundry away, came down, went up to baste a tape in a dress, came down, tried to iron handkerchiefs, found the irons not hot, sat to read a magazine, of course she would perhaps get mixed up with the order of events. I am sitting here at 10:30am and tried to account for all my activities this morning. I know I went upstairs a few times for things, but can't remember exactly what followed what.

I totally agree with you. And I would like to add that at the inquest, 1) Lizzie was under the morphine effect; 2) In front of her Lizzie had a very agressive Knowlton who was almost certain of Lizzie's guilt. If I were at Lizzie's place, I am not sure if I could do a better "performance".

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:45 pm

In my opinion, the reason for the note story was to prevent Andrew from searching the house for Abby. Look closely at the inquest testimony and the bantering which takes place before Lizzie finally remembers the note. She had five or six opportunities to reply to Knowlton that the reason she hadn't missed Abby was because she thought Abby was out, but she missed them all.

Lizzie had been prescribed a maximum dose of morphine to calm her nerves. If she indeed required that, perhaps she was better off with it than without it. This was not the "double dose" referred to which at times produces hallucinations, which is a common misconception.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:10 pm

Another fact that is often over looked is Lizzie started contradicting herself before anything was ever administered to her. On that very day, just minutes after the murders happened.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Just to play devil's advocate, while you or I might not recall everything we did this morning, or any other for that matter, we don't really have the incentive of a murder indictment to deal with. John Morse didn't seem to have too much difficulty recalling his morning actions, nor did Bridget.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:50 pm

Some of the inconsistencies that cropped up in Lizzie's story the day of the murders before anything had even been administered to her. She is telling Mrs. Churchill right off the bat that she heard Abby come in. There is the story about the note. It's one of the first things she said to Mrs. Churchill when she arrived at the back door. This is while Bridget is still running to get Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell. So she is saying she heard Abby come in BEFORE any of the other witnesses arrived at the house that day. And before Andrew was murdered. Because if Abby had come in after Andrew was murdered, she would have seen Andrew lying there and of course raised the alarm herself. She could not even get to her room without going into that sitting room because the key was right in THERE. She is stating this even before Bowen had arrived. But she later explains that she did not look for Abby because she thought she was out. She told Mrs. Churchill she was in the barn looking for iron. She told Bridget she was in the back yard and heard a groan. She told Alice Russell she was in the barn looking for a piece of tin to fix her screen. There was no groan to hear. Andrew by all accounts died instantly. Maybe this is why she changed her story about the groan. A screen that needs fixing could have been checked out. Maybe this is why she changed that story. Because she settled on being out there looking for lead to make sinkers and stuck with it. Then Lizzie asked them to go up stairs to look for Abby. She must have indicated that Abby went up the front stairs, Because this is where they searched first. Bridget was living there and must have known Abby had no reason to go up those front stairs. She would have gone to look for her in her room. So they must have been directed to go up there by Lizzie. If Lizzie thought she had already gone out and come in, what would be Abby's reason for going directly up the front stairs? Why then had Abby not seen Andrew dead on the sofa and cried out and raised her own alarm? Because Lizzie knew that is where Abby was, and that Abby was already dead.

Trial testimony of Adelaide B. Churchill.

Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm an said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said "Where were you when it happened? and ,said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know, she got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."

Q. Anything else at that time?
A. She said, "Father must have any enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned."

She then asked Mrs. Churchill to go and try to find a doctor.
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Testimony of Bridget Sullivan Preliminary Hearing page 29:

A. We were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead’s. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden, she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard hercoming in, and would not we go up stairs and see.

Q. Who said that?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.
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Prelim Bridget page 34:

Q. What did you say to her before that?
A. I asked her where she was. She said she was out in the back yard. She heard a groan, and she came in, and the screen door was wide open.
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Trial testimony of Alice Russell page 381:

Q. Now let me ask you if anything was said about her whereabouts when her father was killed?
A. That was sometime later, in telling us, she told us about going to the barn.

Q. What did she say when she told you that?
A. I don't remember. She said she went to the barn. She told us when she came in ---said that she saw her father, and that he was killed.

Q. Did she say anything about what she went to the barn for?
A. Not until I asked her.

Q. State what you asked her and what she replied.
A. I said, "What did you go to the barn for, Lizzie? And she said, "I went to get a piece of tin or iron to fix my screen."

Q. Did she refer to any screen in particular, or simply "my screen."
A. My screen.

Q. Now was there anything else that was said that you recall while she was downstairs, anything about Mrs. Borden that you remember?
A. I know she asked for somebody to find Mrs. Borden.

Q.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:36 pm

Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had already been to Abby's room, to get a sheet to cover Andrew with. Bridget had come from her room when Lizzie called her. Abby had no reason to be in Lizzie or Emma's rooms, so, by process of elimination, there was only one possibility left for "upstairs" at that point.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:47 pm

Allen wrote:Another fact that is often over looked is Lizzie started contradicting herself before anything was ever administered to her. On that very day, just minutes after the murders happened.

Good point. but if Lizzie were the killer, and if she had, as many suppose, premeditated the murders, could she so easily start contradicting herself on that very day, just minutes after the murders happened?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:55 pm

The answer is YES she did.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:09 pm

Yooper wrote:Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had already been to Abby's room, to get a sheet to cover Andrew with. Bridget had come from her room when Lizzie called her. Abby had no reason to be in Lizzie or Emma's rooms, so, by process of elimination, there was only one possibility left for "upstairs" at that point.

Good point, Yooper. They had been up to the room to get the sheet. Process of elimination. But Bridget must have wondered why Abby would be up there of all places to begin with. And why Abby had not raised the alarm herself upon finding Andrew. She would have seen him when she came into the house no matter what. If she had gone to her room she needed the key which was on the mantle in the sitting room, and if she had gone upstairs she would have either walked right past him from the back entrance, or saw him from the front hall as she arrived home. Everyone must have wondered how Abby came home and never made a peep seeing her husband murdered. Lizzie told Andrew that Abby was out. But then said she heard Abby come in. So it had to be after Andrew was murdered.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Yooper wrote:Just to play devil's advocate, while you or I might not recall everything we did this morning, or any other for that matter, we don't really have the incentive of a murder indictment to deal with. John Morse didn't seem to have too much difficulty recalling his morning actions, nor did Bridget.

Good point, too. But I would like to say that, if Lizzie were innocent, and if at the moment of her father's death she was really doing something that she couldn't confess at any price, and she feared very much that what she was doing could be discovered, her psycological status should have been very different from that of Bridget and of John Morse. Bridget was resting in her room, uncle John was in the town, both of them had nothing to cover, they should have been more serene than Lizzie. Lizzie, on the other hand, could be terribly troubled (not only was she the very first person who saw her father's body, so she suffered much more shock than all the others, but also, if she was thinking all the time: oh, father was killed, and at that moment I was doing that thing! what a shame!...oh I can't confess it, I can't tell it to anyone, I must cover it, I mustn't let it to be known by anyone. I must invent something. What?...How? A lie, yes, I must lie... ) If Lizzie's mind was in such a condition. she could do a very bad performance: "At that moment I was looking for irons" (she firstly thought of iron because of what she was doing that morning), and then, oh, iron is not a good story... "I was looking for some pieces of lead"... Anf then, little by little, the situation became more and more disastrous...

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Lizzie also forestalled the offer by Bridget to look for Abby at her sister's house in order to send Bridget to the guest room. An innocent person, not knowing where Abby was, would have absolutely no reason to stop anyone from going anywhere to find Abby! As I've said in other threads, Lizzie clearly thought Abby had returned.

I expect Bridget had some serious questions about the time Abby was"found", maybe even shortly before. She left a vapor trail when she left the Borden household!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:21 pm

Abby had been dead long before Andrew. So Lizzie did not hear Abby come in. She never went out in the first place. The question remains why she said she did. It was to get everyone to search for her body.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:23 pm

My best guess is that either Lizzie was getting impatient waiting for the other shoe to drop, or she wanted to get to her room and she didn't want to walk past the guest room before Abby had been "discovered".

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:25 pm

Those are my thoughts exactly. She wanted the body found, and quickly, so she could get up to her room.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:57 pm

There is another thought I have about this note to go out that Abby supposedly received. I've always believe Lizzie told Andrew this to keep him from looking for Abby and finding her body. Because if there was only one key to their bedroom that they shared, and it was kept on the mantle in the sitting room, all he had to do was look there to know Abby was not up in her room. If the key was still on the mantle Abby was not in her room. She would take the key with her. He'd already been as far as the dining room and had not seen her. She was not up in her room. Where was she?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:37 pm

You're right, Allen, Andrew would have known at a glance that Abby was not in their bedroom. If I remember correctly, Bridget testified that Andrew had been upstairs to his room by the time he was told of the note. He had been to the sitting room, dining room, and kitchen by then. He didn't look in the parlor, but he might well have asked Lizzie where Abby was and she responded with the note story. What caught my eye was the testimony by Bridget about Lizzie speaking very slowly. Was she hinting that Lizzie spoke hesitantly, as though making it up? All we can say for certain is that, in Bridget's experience with Lizzie's speech patterns, she was speaking unusually slowly when she told Andrew about the note. If Andrew thought Lizzie was lying, it might be that he wasn't feeling well enough to pursue the matter at the moment. I doubt he had any reason to suspect Abby was dead, in fact, he never knew it.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Since this thread is about Lizzie's lies, and yes there are many lies told by Lizzie in my opinion, I thought i would throw this out here. She (Lizzie) testified at the inquest that she was in the kitchen when Abby was murdered. Impossible. Then she says she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home, but Bridget says she was upstairs. Lizzie says she "thought" she was upstairs, then remembers she was in the kitchen. She knows she was on the stairs, because Bridget heard her laugh.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:01 pm

Bridget came indoors to finish the window washing shortly before Andrew arrived, there was no sign of Lizzie in the kitchen at that point. Bridget came inside to get the dipper she used on the outside of the windows at some point and Lizzie wasn't in the kitchen then, either.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:43 am

When Bridget came indoors to finish washing the windows, she didn't see Lizzie in the kitchen...what other rooms did she not see Lizzie in? My point is that if Lizzie was upstairs at any point, she would have had to see Abby, no? Is it possible Lizzie was upstairs at the time Andrew came in (Bridget didn't say it was Lizzie's laugh she heard, only that she heard a sound like someone laughing) and she actually did NOT see her step-mother lying on the floor, butchered? I guess it is possible she was in her room (bringing up clean laundry, sewing, etc) then walked straight down the stairs without looking into the guest room...this is of course, if I choose to believe she is innocent (which I don't.)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:23 am

Bridget actually did state it was Lizzie she heard laughing.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:00 pm

I expect Bridget went through the kitchen on her way to the sitting room where she washed part of one window by the time Andrew arrived. Lizzie could have been in the dining room, the parlor, or the cellar. If she was, why didn't she say so? If she was, who did Bridget hear laughing upstairs? Probably not Abby!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:21 pm

My understanding of the laugh situation was that Maggie probably used an expletive when she couldn't get the door unlocked, and Lizzie who was on the stairs/ upstairs overheard the expletive, and blurted out a laugh. In those days it wasn't proper for women to use foul language, so it would have tickled Lizzie. Lizzie I believe admitted to being upstairs, then denied it, denying the laugh as well.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:34 am

According to Bridget’s testimony, regardless Lizzie’s guilt or innocence, I think it is very very highly unlikely that Bridget involved in the murders, unlikely either that she knew more than she told to the authorities. If she did, it would be difficult to understand why she told a number of things. I think she answered as honestly as possible in her testimony and she had nothing to do with the murders.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:34 am

I agree, Bridget didn't have a motive, and back in the day when anyone who was a 'foreigner' was looked as with suspicion, if there had been ANY question at all that Bridget committed the crimes, she would have been hauled into court. The fact that suspicion was never cast on her shows that she was innocent.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:27 pm

If Bridget didn’t involve in the murders (I believe this was one (little) part of the truth of that mysterious day), this fact doesn’t increase or diminish Lizzie’s innocence, it doesn’t increase or diminish Lizzie’s guilt, neither. But the speculation that Bridget involved in the murders (or that she knew more than what she told) would imply – almost directly – that Lizzie was the killer.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:09 pm

Lizzie and Bridget were the only people in the house that day so their testimonies are crucial to get a true and accurate picture of what went down that day. Lizzie had the luxory of lying, because she was Andrew Borden's daughter, and Bridget was just the maid. Bridget was probably scared and intimidated by the whole affair and wanted to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:41 pm

I would like to know what led the police to believe that Bridget was not involved. Lizzie told the police that Bridget had gone upstairs, but Lizzie had supposedly gone to the barn, so how would she know that Bridget remained in her room?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:03 pm

Yooper wrote:I would like to know what led the police to believe that Bridget was not involved. Lizzie told the police that Bridget had gone upstairs, but Lizzie had supposedly gone to the barn, so how would she know that Bridget remained in her room?

I think the crime was so horrific, that at first neither woman in the house was suspected. The thought only slowly dawned on the police when things Lizzie said and did didn't add up...by then no one was thinking Bridget.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:38 pm

Lizzie visited Alice Russell the night before the murders telling her stories of enemies her father had who might burn the house down around them. She told the authorities her father had no enemies. She spoke only of a man who wanted to let out a store and Andrew refused. And at the inquest she also named Hiram C. Harrington as someone her father did not get along with. That was it. Where did all these alleged enemies go? The bold emphasis on the wording is mine but this is what Lizzie had to say.

The Witness Statements page 2, again from the Notes of John Fleet August 4, 1892:

“Have you any idea who could have done this?” “No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

From the Inquest of Lizzie Borden:

Q. Anybody else that was on bad terms with your father, or that your father was on bad terms with?
A. Not that I know of.

And why did she feel the need to say the man spoke English? She also said she saw Abby in the bedroom as she was coming downstairs around nine o'clock.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:44 pm

There were probably a great number of immigrants in 1892 who did not speak English or spoke broken English. It could be that, having heard the man talking to Andrew but not having seen him, the fact that he spoke English might be of some help in identifying the man.

The Witness Statements are sometimes written as a synopsis of a conversation, including the responses but not including the questions. Fleet may have specifically asked Lizzie if the man spoke English and he only needed her response.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:39 pm

Allen Wrote:

She also said she saw Abby in the bedroom as she was coming downstairs around nine o'clock.

I find this statement by Lizzie to be a BIG FAT LIE! She probably saw Abby's dead body as she was coming downstairs which prompted her to laugh as bridget struggled with the latch as depicted in The Lizzie Borden Movie!