Who did the crimes poll

[Harry]

Actually Franz, I doubt you could see much, if anything, with the shutters closed. Certainly not Andrew approaching from Spring St, Here's a view of the shutters closed on the first floor (parlor windows). They appear to be quite a tight fit. The shutter on the left is partially open and if that was true in the guest room I still don't see how much anyone could see of the front entrance. Equally so for the side entrance with the one window.

On a different subject, on this straight on view of the driveway you can see how narrow the view is between the house and the barn. Lubinski would have had to be past the point on Second St, to see anyone coming from the direction of the barn. The person would have had to be around the house and near the steps. I believe someone measured the distance from the bottom step to the back of the house and I recall it as only 3 feet,

[Allen]

Harry, I was also referring to the inside shutters. The board shutters/blinds that were on the inside of the windows that could be closed from inside to shut out the light. There were upper and under shutters. The top could be opened and the bottom closed and vice versa. There were effectively two sets of shutters on the windows of the house. There were the ones on the outside of the house itself, and the ones inside on each window that I refer to that were found closed. This is my photo taken during my stay in the John Morse guest room that shows the inside shutters pulled closed. These would have been roughly the same style as what was on the windows at the time. The room was said by some witnesses to be dark when Abby's body was found because the shutters were closed.

[Allen]

From George Robinson's closing argument:

Besides you remember the testimony of Dr. Bowen and Mr. Manning and some others --- it is not necessary to state them --- that the upper hall was dark when they went up there, and that the guest chamber was dark.

You remember in that guest room there are tight board shutters, not open blinds like in this court, but tight board shutters that shut up. And you know the New England housewife does not like to have her carpet fade, and the more they live in the old style the more careful they are. I remember with some reflections about my old mother, how she looked after the carpets and the boys, that they didn't get the light in. The boys wanted to live out in the sunlight; she didn't want her carpets there. And so the natural thing in that room in the Borden house was to keep the shutters shut, those tight shutters. And the doctor says, they all of them say, that when they went in it was dark and they had to open them so they could see something.

[Harry]

Thank you, Allen. My mistake. I thought he meant the outside shutters.

[PossumPie]

P.S.: Allen, I have never been the Borden house, but according to the photo, one in the guest room can easily oversee the front door. And if the shutter was the same as those of today, I think one could "observe" and know a person's arrival without open the shutter. Whoever (you included) has been there can tell me if this is true or not.

Franz, I believe someone could have peeked out of the blinds and seen Mr. Borden come home, BUT it would be a dangerous risk to stay there an hour-and-a-half and risk getting caught. Also, like I said earlier, how did the killer know Mr. Borden wasn't home already? Plus it would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that anyone could slip behind Mrs. Borden's back and into the house unseen. No nosy neighbor saw it? no one passing on the busy street? How did they know Mr. Borden came in, laid down on the couch? Did they wander through the house looking for him?

[Aamartin]

Unlike the blinds of today which one can carefully move one slat to look out of, this is impossible with shutters. I have plantation shutters in my kitchen-- and to look out, you have to open an entire panel

[Franz]

Thank you for all your replies. But I have no a clear idea about the inside shutter. But I imagine that in any case it should let some sunlight enter in the room that remains dark as well. The function of a shutter is this, right? And Harry said the the shutters of that time were almost the same as those of today in the style. Please give me some more clarification about the issue, thanks.

The conspirators of Morse could have hidden themself near the Borden house and easily knew when Mr. Borden left the house.

P.S.: According to the photo posted by Allen, I don't think it was impossible to someone inside the room to know a person's arrival at the front entry, overseen from the guest room, through a shutter of this type. This is just a shutter I imagined: it has many fissures (the right word?). The killer didn't need to see clearly everything outside to know Andrew's arrival, I think.

[Aamartin]

It depends on the shutter quality IMO. The shutters in my kitchen are dark wood-- cherry-- and when shut let VERY little light in. You cannot see in or out of them. Not even a peep.

Franz-- we call them simply 'slats'. They are not independent of one another, they are attached by a piece of wood going down the middle of each panel.

[Franz]

It depends on the shutter quality IMO. The shutters in my kitchen are dark wood-- cherry-- and when shut let VERY little light in. You cannot see in or out of them. Not even a peep.

Franz-- we call them simply 'slats'. They are not independent of one another, they are attached by a piece of wood going down the middle of each panel.

Thank you, Aamartin. What I mean is the empty (open) space between theses slats, from where the light can enter and someone could perceive what is happening outside, I imagine.

[Harry]

Partial

And Harry said the the shutters of that time were almost the same as those of today in the style.

Franz, when I said they were almost the same I was referring to the outside shutters. I don't have any knowledge of the inside ones.

I always assumed if Abby was looking out the window when attacked it was the single window on the north side. That is based on the interview with Jennings in the Boston Globe of Aug. 8th.

"... During my examination of the house I observed spots of blood under a window sill a considerable distance from where the body of Mrs. Borden was found. The location of the spots and the apparent angle at which they struck the wall make me believe that the blow first inflicted upon the murdered woman was the glancing cut on the side of the head which tore off so large a piece of flesh. If Mrs. Borden had been standing by the window looking out into the yard, and had been approached from behind by a person who struck the blow I have described, I think the spatters would have gone in the direction of those I saw.
"If Mrs. Borden had not become instantly unconscious she might have naturally turned half round, staggered with hands uplifted in self-defense and then have fallen, head down, in precisely the position in which she was found. ..."

I can't see how it would be possible to approach her from behind if she was standing at one of the 2 front windows. So those 2 inside shutters need not be opened. But if the single window shutter was open where Abby was looking out, who closed it? Just speculation on her looking out the window.

[Darrowfan]

"... During my examination of the house I observed spots of blood under a window sill a considerable distance from where the body of Mrs. Borden was found. The location of the spots and the apparent angle at which they struck the wall make me believe that the blow first inflicted upon the murdered woman was the glancing cut on the side of the head which tore off so large a piece of flesh. If Mrs. Borden had been standing by the window looking out into the yard, and had been approached from behind by a person who struck the blow I have described, I think the spatters would have gone in the direction of those I saw.
"If Mrs. Borden had not become instantly unconscious she might have naturally turned half round, staggered with hands uplifted in self-defense and then have fallen, head down, in precisely the position in which she was found. ..."

Harry, I'm intrigued by Jennings' theory as to how, and where, the first blow was struck. Is there any testimony in any of the court proceedings in which any one else, a doctor, an investigator, etc. offered any theories about this? If so, could you direct me to that testimony? Or did any investigators or doctors make any out of court speculations, similar to the one you quoted from Jennings, about the details of the attack itself? I would be very interested to know how others involved in the case theorized about such details.

Thanks.

[Harry]

Here's one, DarrowFan.

Dr. Cheever at the trial (p1093-1094) expressed an opinion:

Q. Doctor, did you form any opinion as to the position of Mrs. Borden's body, taking all the facts that you heard, or didn't you examine that subject?
A. Yes, sir; I formed an opinion.
Q. Will you state it?
A. I think that all the wounds except three were inflicted when she was flat upon her face upon the floor.
Q. Which three do you except?
A. This scalp wound, and two wounds on the top of the head.
Q. The upper wounds on the middle line, or near the middle line?
A. Yes, sir. That mark is new to me.
Q. Oh, that is a pencil mark that was accidentally made this morning by Dr. Dolan.
A. That mark I never saw. The scalp wound on the side of the head, and the two wounds on the top. With that exception I think the wounds were inflicted when she was flat upon the floor upon her face.
Q. And did you form any opinion as to the position of Mrs. Borden when any or all of those wounds were inflicted? If so, what was it? Those excepted ones, I mean.
A. The excepted wounds---shall I take the manakin?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I think this scalp wound was inflicted when the assailant was face to face with the victim.
Q. Why?
A. Because it has cut only partially through. It seems to cut from the front, it failed to come out on the other side. My supposition is that when that blow was given the victim started back and the hatchet failed to through, and it glanced.
Q. And do you desire to express any opinion as to the other two or three that you excepted?
A. I must express a modified opinion, that they could have been given in an awkward way with the head in this position. They would have been more easily given with the person standing up."

Interesting that he feels the two wounds on the top of her head were inflicted when she was standing. Unfortunately we can't see how the manikin was held.

[Darrowfan]

Here's one, DarrowFan. I'm afraid my health limits my time for searches. I'll try again for more later.

Dr. Cheever at the trial (p1093-1094) expressed an opinion:

Q. Doctor, did you form any opinion as to the position of Mrs. Borden's body, taking all the facts that you heard, or didn't you examine that subject?
A. Yes, sir; I formed an opinion.
Q. Will you state it?
A. I think that all the wounds except three were inflicted when she was flat upon her face upon the floor.
Q. Which three do you except?
A. This scalp wound, and two wounds on the top of the head.
Q. The upper wounds on the middle line, or near the middle line?
A. Yes, sir. That mark is new to me.
Q. Oh, that is a pencil mark that was accidentally made this morning by Dr. Dolan.
A. That mark I never saw. The scalp wound on the side of the head, and the two wounds on the top. With that exception I think the wounds were inflicted when she was flat upon the floor upon her face.
Q. And did you form any opinion as to the position of Mrs. Borden when any or all of those wounds were inflicted? If so, what was it? Those excepted ones, I mean.
A. The excepted wounds---shall I take the manakin?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I think this scalp wound was inflicted when the assailant was face to face with the victim.
Q. Why?
A. Because it has cut only partially through. It seems to cut from the front, it failed to come out on the other side. My supposition is that when that blow was given the victim started back and the hatchet failed to through, and it glanced.
Q. And do you desire to express any opinion as to the other two or three that you excepted?
A. I must express a modified opinion, that they could have been given in an awkward way with the head in this position. They would have been more easily given with the person standing up.

Many thanks, Harry. Fascinating. To me, the most interesting part from that testimony is this:

A. I think this scalp wound was inflicted when the assailant was face to face with the victim.
Q. Why?
A. Because it has cut only partially through. It seems to cut from the front, it failed to come out on the other side. My supposition is that when that blow was given the victim started back and the hatchet failed to through, and it glanced.

I hate to belabor my "Lizzie did it" point, but I can visualize Abby talking face to face with Lizzie, perhaps arguing, when Lizzie suddenly raises the weapon to attack, and as the doctor theorizes, Abby "started back", and all else followed.

Of course, even if the events played out exactly that way, that doesn't prove that Lizzie was the attacker. But I get the impression that the attacker had to be someone Abby knew. I will leave it there.

[Harry]

However, Dr. Draper contradicts some of Dr. Cheever's testimony: (p1056-1057)


Q. Doctor, taking the results of your observations, what should you say as to the time of death after the wounds were inflicted?
A. I am able to form an accurate judgment in the case of the man. I can only approximate in the case of the woman.
Q. You may give your opinion or judgment.
A. In regard to Mr. Borden, the cutting across of the internal carotid artery within the skull meant immediate death. In the case of the woman, there was stunning from the first blow, unconsciousness, and the length of survival might be five minutes, might be ten. Death might have come in one minute.
Q. You put the extreme limit at ten minutes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After all the blows were inflicted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ten minutes after all the blows were inflicted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Won't you point out where that carotid artery is that was severed in the case of Mr. Borden?
A. There is a round canal which is seen in the back face of the cut in the base of the skull.
Q. You have heard the testimony, as to the position in which the body of Mrs.
Borden was found?
A. I have, sir.
Q. And taking that testimony, without rehearsing it now, and the wounds as you observed them, did you form any opinion as to the position of the woman when she was assaulted?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Won't you tell what your opinion about it is, and how certain you feel about it?
A. I believe that the assailant in the case stood astride the prostrate body of Mrs. Borden, as she was lying face downward on the floor.
Q. As to all of the wounds?
A. As to all except the flat wound in the scalp on the left side of the head.
Q. You mean that one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you say as to that one?
A. I think that that was given while Mrs. Borden was standing and facing her assailant.
Q. Why?
A. Because it is directed from the front backward, and is attached to the scalp by a bridge at the back portion of it.
Q. Could that have been given in the position in which she was found?
A. It could have been, but not readily. It would be a very awkward way of inflicting it.
Q. Are you able to form any opinion as to whether any of the wounds on the top of the head were given in any particular position of Mrs. Borden or position of the assailant?
A. I have an opinion but it is open to controversy. It is an open question.
Q. Perhaps you may give it.
A. My opinion is that they were inflicted while the body was prostrate, and the assailant astride the body.
Q. As I understand you, of that you do not feel at all confident?
A. No, sir.

[Darrowfan]

However, Dr. Draper contradicts some of Dr. Cheever's testimony: (p1056-1057)


Q. Doctor, taking the results of your observations, what should you say as to the time of death after the wounds were inflicted?
A. I am able to form an accurate judgment in the case of the man. I can only approximate in the case of the woman.
Q. You may give your opinion or judgment.
A. In regard to Mr. Borden, the cutting across of the internal carotid artery within the skull meant immediate death. In the case of the woman, there was stunning from the first blow, unconsciousness, and the length of survival might be five minutes, might be ten. Death might have come in one minute.
Q. You put the extreme limit at ten minutes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After all the blows were inflicted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ten minutes after all the blows were inflicted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Won't you point out where that carotid artery is that was severed in the case of Mr. Borden?
A. There is a round canal which is seen in the back face of the cut in the base of the skull.
Q. You have heard the testimony, as to the position in which the body of Mrs.
Borden was found?
A. I have, sir.
Q. And taking that testimony, without rehearsing it now, and the wounds as you observed them, did you form any opinion as to the position of the woman when she was assaulted?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Won't you tell what your opinion about it is, and how certain you feel about it?
A. I believe that the assailant in the case stood astride the prostrate body of Mrs. Borden, as she was lying face downward on the floor.
Q. As to all of the wounds?
A. As to all except the flat wound in the scalp on the left side of the head.
Q. You mean that one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you say as to that one?
A. I think that that was given while Mrs. Borden was standing and facing her assailant.
Q. Why?
A. Because it is directed from the front backward, and is attached to the scalp by a bridge at the back portion of it.
Q. Could that have been given in the position in which she was found?
A. It could have been, but not readily. It would be a very awkward way of inflicting it.
Q. Are you able to form any opinion as to whether any of the wounds on the top of the head were given in any particular position of Mrs. Borden or position of the assailant?
A. I have an opinion but it is open to controversy. It is an open question.
Q. Perhaps you may give it.
A. My opinion is that they were inflicted while the body was prostrate, and the assailant astride the body.
Q. As I understand you, of that you do not feel at all confident?
A. No, sir.

Interesting. It seems that the doctors are in general agreement that the first blow to Mrs. Borden was struck while she was facing her murderer, who then completed the killing while Mrs. Borden was prostrate. I admit I was a little nauseated by Dr. Draper's statement that it could have taken Abby as long as 10 minutes to die. I hope that wasn't the case.

[Allen]

It depends on the shutter quality IMO. The shutters in my kitchen are dark wood-- cherry-- and when shut let VERY little light in. You cannot see in or out of them. Not even a peep.

Franz-- we call them simply 'slats'. They are not independent of one another, they are attached by a piece of wood going down the middle of each panel.

Thanks Aamartin. I know what you mean. I have a set of these shutters in my own living room. This is what it looks like when I try to peer through them when they are closed.

[Allen]

Thanks, Harry for posting the testimony about the flap wound. I've always thought that Abby had to be facing her attacker for that wound to have occurred. It would be difficult to make a wound of that nature by standing behind or off to the side of her. It appears from the direction of that hinge of skin that the hatchet was swung toward Abby's face. She may have tried to dodge the blow. I also hope that it didn't take as long as 10 minutes for Abby to die. Such a horrific end for both of them. The bruising on her face has always been interesting for me also. It could have been caused when she fell, but I've often wondered if she wasn't struck in the face.

[Franz]

It depends on the shutter quality IMO. The shutters in my kitchen are dark wood-- cherry-- and when shut let VERY little light in. You cannot see in or out of them. Not even a peep.

Franz-- we call them simply 'slats'. They are not independent of one another, they are attached by a piece of wood going down the middle of each panel.

Thanks Aamartin. I know what you mean. I have a set of these shutters in my own living room. This is what it looks like when I try to peer through them when they are closed.

Thank you for posting that photo. Was there something to manipulate the slats of the guest room in the Borden house? I mean to enlarge the space between the slats without opening the shutter all toghther? If the three shutters were all closed in this manner, the room could have been completely dark (without considering the light coming from the door). It's difficult to me to imagine such a scene.

[Franz]

Thanks, Harry for posting the testimony about the flap wound. I've always thought that Abby had to be facing her attacker for that wound to have occurred. It would be difficult to make a wound of that nature by standing behind or off to the side of her. It appears from the direction of that hinge of skin that the hatchet was swung toward Abby's face. She may have tried to dodge the blow. I also hope that it didn't take as long as 10 minutes for Abby to die. Such a horrific end for both of them. The bruising on her face has always been interesting for me also. It could have been caused when she fell, but I've often wondered if she wasn't struck in the face.

If so, where was the assailant when he / she gave the first blow to Abby? between the victim and the east wall? I have asked this question but no one answered me.

[PossumPie]

I've been over and over the only 'blood evidence' testimony given, and there was little blood anywhere except on/under/around her head. There was some medium spatter on the pillow shams, which would have come either from cast-off spatter from the hatchet coming down again, or direct spatter from a vertically standing hit on the victim's right side of the back of her head. There was some droplets directly on the wall in front of Mrs. Borden "3 or 4 feet away" As I've said previously, blood from a sharp-force-head trauma isn't very messy at first. The first head wound is "free" (no cast-off) The next wounds will spatter almost all blood to both sides of the head b/c a sharp object doesn't 'splash' the blood. MOST blood droplets found will be from cast-off in front, directly over (the ceiling) and behind the attacker. There was some small droplets on the "mop board" molding that runs along the floor, and a few back by the window. The police seemed to think she was originally hit by the window, but it is definitely within the line of backward-swing-castoff from a hatchet swung backwards. The flap of skin almost guarantees that the attacker was in front of the victim for at least one swing. The only variation I can see would be if she were back-towards the attacker, with her head rotated looking over her right shoulder. This would be awkward but possible. On the topic, Some folks wonder if the attacker could have laid on the bed and hit her while lying down. This is highly unlikely because the wounds were parallel to her backbone, NOT perpendicular. Impossible with the way she was laying.

[Darrowfan]

I've been over and over the only 'blood evidence' testimony given, and there was little blood anywhere except on/under/around her head. There was some medium spatter on the pillow shams, which would have come either from cast-off spatter from the hatchet coming down again, or direct spatter from a vertically standing hit on the victim's right side of the back of her head. There was some droplets directly on the wall in front of Mrs. Borden "3 or 4 feet away" As I've said previously, blood from a sharp-force-head trauma isn't very messy at first. The first head wound is "free" (no cast-off) The next wounds will spatter almost all blood to both sides of the head b/c a sharp object doesn't 'splash' the blood. MOST blood droplets found will be from cast-off in front, directly over (the ceiling) and behind the attacker. There was some small droplets on the "mop board" molding that runs along the floor, and a few back by the window. The police seemed to think she was originally hit by the window, but it is definitely within the line of backward-swing-castoff from a hatchet swung backwards. The flap of skin almost guarantees that the attacker was in front of the victim for at least one swing. The only variation I can see would be if she were back-towards the attacker, with her head rotated looking over her right shoulder. This would be awkward but possible. On the topic, Some folks wonder if the attacker could have laid on the bed and hit her while lying down. This is highly unlikely because the wounds were parallel to her backbone, NOT perpendicular. Impossible with the way she was laying.

Very interesting, Possum. It is a shame that it cannot be determined with absolute certainty exactly where Abby and her attacker were standing, and how they were facing, when the first blow was struck. Such information might be helpful in determining whether the murderer was an intruder or someone who belonged in the house.

[PossumPie]

Very interesting, Possum. It is a shame that it cannot be determined with absolute certainty exactly where Abby and her attacker were standing, and how they were facing, when the first blow was struck. Such information might be helpful in determining whether the murderer was an intruder or someone who belonged in the house.

I know I am repeating myself, but lack of blood on Lizzie is not important. I went through some old forensic journals and the pictures of suspects in a sharp force trauma attack often had blood only on the hands-which can easily and quickly be washed. I think if Lizzie had discovered after killing them that she had blood all over, she would have changed dresses, THEN called out to Bridget. But looking at herself and seeing only bloody hands, she could have cleaned them in a second, then called Bridget. Remember she immediately sent the ONLY living person left out on TWO errands, to the Dr. and to the neighbor. That gave her enough time to thoroughly clean her hands, check herself in a mirror, and dispose of the rag she used to clean up in the menstrual rag bucket.

[Allen]

Blunt force trauma demonstation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVWdEjC5RA

[Darrowfan]

Very interesting, Possum. It is a shame that it cannot be determined with absolute certainty exactly where Abby and her attacker were standing, and how they were facing, when the first blow was struck. Such information might be helpful in determining whether the murderer was an intruder or someone who belonged in the house.

I know I am repeating myself, but lack of blood on Lizzie is not important. I went through some old forensic journals and the pictures of suspects in a sharp force trauma attack often had blood only on the hands-which can easily and quickly be washed. I think if Lizzie had discovered after killing them that she had blood all over, she would have changed dresses, THEN called out to Bridget. But looking at herself and seeing only bloody hands, she could have cleaned them in a second, then called Bridget. Remember she immediately sent the ONLY living person left out on TWO errands, to the Dr. and to the neighbor. That gave her enough time to thoroughly clean her hands, check herself in a mirror, and dispose of the rag she used to clean up in the menstrual rag bucket.

Good points. I think I have also posited the theory that if Lizzie had only a few specks of blood on her hands, she could have easily cleaned them before they were noticed. And, as you point out, there were a few minutes that morning where Lizzie had sole "control" of the crime scene.

[Darrowfan]

Blunt force trauma demonstation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVWdEjC5RA

Interesting demonstration, Allen. When the "attacker" turned to show her clothing, I was surprised by the small amount of blood on her. I expected to see more.

[Harry]

Blunt force trauma demonstation

What was the object she was beating on?

[PattiG157]

In this video, I too was surprised by how little blood she has on her person; but, she did have SOME blood, and it covered a large area. I seem to remember that the police inspected every dress in Lizzie's closet the day of the murders -- inside and out -- and found no clothing with any blood on it. Any dress worn while committing these heinous crimes would have had SOME blood on it at least.

I've also often wondered, could Lizzie have slipped the dress (and maybe even the murder weapon) in the bottom of the menstrual rag pail? As far as I know, that pail wasn't checked (I wouldn't have checked it either!!). I don't know how large the pail was, so I'm not sure if this is a possibility, but it's a thought.

[PossumPie]

Blunt force trauma demonstation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVWdEjC5RA

Interesting demonstration, Allen. When the "attacker" turned to show her clothing, I was surprised by the small amount of blood on her. I expected to see more.

I think it was a head specially made for the demonstration, with a hollow inside for the 'blood'
Wearing all white, the high-velocity spatter was apparent on her wrists/hands, obviously as I've said in earlier posts, MOST blood from a SHARP force trauma will be about the hands and wrists. Look in the video after the demonstration, the woman's hands are full of cast off large drops, and directional medium velocity spatter. If it had been sharp force, and If the woman had been wearing a pattern dress, the small amount of blood may have been unnoticed. As for the hands, they would have needed to be washed.
And that looked like a PR 24 police issue Baton she was using. the cylindrical surface of the baton on a bloody mass acts like hitting a wet sponge. Blood flies in all directions fairly evenly. NOW...a sharp ax, machete, or hatchet would be far less blood splatter b/c instead of hitting that spongy bloody cranium with a 2cm X 4cm area of baton, you are splitting it with a 1mm-5mm edge of blade. Almost all blood would be cast off from the arc of the hatchet as you pull back for another swing.
I always thought Lizzie killing her parents "in the nude" was far-fetched, even close to death no child wants their parents to see them naked, BUT it would answer the why no blood question. Nope, I just can't buy that hypothesis. Freud was still king back in Victorian days.
Thanks for the video!

[Darrowfan]

Blunt force trauma demonstation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMVWdEjC5RA

Interesting demonstration, Allen. When the "attacker" turned to show her clothing, I was surprised by the small amount of blood on her. I expected to see more.

I think it was a head specially made for the demonstration, with a hollow inside for the 'blood'
Wearing all white, the high-velocity spatter was apparent on her wrists/hands, obviously as I've said in earlier posts, MOST blood from a SHARP force trauma will be about the hands and wrists. Look in the video after the demonstration, the woman's hands are full of cast off large drops, and directional medium velocity spatter. If it had been sharp force, and If the woman had been wearing a pattern dress, the small amount of blood may have been unnoticed. As for the hands, they would have needed to be washed.
And that looked like a PR 24 police issue Baton she was using. the cylindrical surface of the baton on a bloody mass acts like hitting a wet sponge. Blood flies in all directions fairly evenly. NOW...a sharp ax, machete, or hatchet would be far less blood splatter b/c instead of hitting that spongy bloody cranium with a 2cm X 4cm area of baton, you are splitting it with a 1mm-5mm edge of blade. Almost all blood would be cast off from the arc of the hatchet as you pull back for another swing.
I always thought Lizzie killing her parents "in the nude" was far-fetched, even close to death no child wants their parents to see them naked, BUT it would answer the why no blood question. Nope, I just can't buy that hypothesis. Freud was still king back in Victorian days.
Thanks for the video!

I used to be bothered by the fact that no blood was observed on Lizzie, but no longer. I think that we can conjecture about how much blood might or might not splatter on to an attacker, but each instance is different, I'm sure. In other words, Lizzie might have avoided getting blood on her not by taking any concrete steps to prevent it, but by pure chance.

I can think of several times when I have seen a person have an accident while painting, or while cooking with messy materials, and I have said something along the lines of "Wow. I'm surprised you didn't get it all over you", or "You're lucky it didn't splash onto your clothes", etc.

[Aamartin]

I do not think anyone would have been able to see out of those shutters enough to tell who may be coming or going from the house.

People have flung themselves to the floor in the guest room and others could not hear them downstairs. So I am not sure anyone could hear from that room either. So-- perhaps Abby did not fall or did not scream-- or simply was not heard... Or the only one to hear was in the room with her

[Franz]

I do not think anyone would have been able to see out of those shutters enough to tell who may be coming or going from the house.

People have flung themselves to the floor in the guest room and others could not hear them downstairs. So I am not sure anyone could hear from that room either. So-- perhaps Abby did not fall or did not scream-- or simply was not heard... Or the only one to hear was in the room with her

If so, do you think that some one would have been able to see out of those shutters to tell at least that some one may be coming?

[PossumPie]

I do not think anyone would have been able to see out of those shutters enough to tell who may be coming or going from the house.

People have flung themselves to the floor in the guest room and others could not hear them downstairs. So I am not sure anyone could hear from that room either. So-- perhaps Abby did not fall or did not scream-- or simply was not heard... Or the only one to hear was in the room with her

If so, do you think that some one would have been able to see out of those shutters to tell at least that some one may be coming?

Franz, it does not seem so...For your theory to work, you would have to say that after the killing of Mrs. Borden, the killer would have had to sit in the hallway at/on the stairs and listen for the return of Mr. Borden, but that doesn't work b/c Bridget apparently couldn't get the locks to work, cursed at them, and heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs...If you believe Bridget's testimony, and what reason would she lie?

[Darrowfan]

I do not think anyone would have been able to see out of those shutters enough to tell who may be coming or going from the house.

People have flung themselves to the floor in the guest room and others could not hear them downstairs. So I am not sure anyone could hear from that room either. So-- perhaps Abby did not fall or did not scream-- or simply was not heard... Or the only one to hear was in the room with her

If so, do you think that some one would have been able to see out of those shutters to tell at least that some one may be coming?

Franz, it does not seem so...For your theory to work, you would have to say that after the killing of Mrs. Borden, the killer would have had to sit in the hallway at/on the stairs and listen for the return of Mr. Borden, but that doesn't work b/c Bridget apparently couldn't get the locks to work, cursed at them, and heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs...If you believe Bridget's testimony, and what reason would she lie?

Very good points, Possum.

[Aamartin]

I contend that id those shutters were indeed closed-- no one saw in or out of them.

[Franz]

I contend that id those shutters were indeed closed-- no one saw in or out of them.

You mean completely closed? This is just your speculation, no more nor less than the mine.

[Franz]

I do not think anyone would have been able to see out of those shutters enough to tell who may be coming or going from the house.

People have flung themselves to the floor in the guest room and others could not hear them downstairs. So I am not sure anyone could hear from that room either. So-- perhaps Abby did not fall or did not scream-- or simply was not heard... Or the only one to hear was in the room with her

If so, do you think that some one would have been able to see out of those shutters to tell at least that some one may be coming?

Franz, it does not seem so...For your theory to work, you would have to say that after the killing of Mrs. Borden, the killer would have had to sit in the hallway at/on the stairs and listen for the return of Mr. Borden, but that doesn't work b/c Bridget apparently couldn't get the locks to work, cursed at them, and heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs...If you believe Bridget's testimony, and what reason would she lie?

Why do I have to say tthat the killer would have had to sit in the hallway on the front stairs? I will never speculate such a thing. Bridget didn't see Lizzie, she only heard a laugh, and she thought it was Lizzie's laugh. She didn't see Lizzie laughing.

[Darrowfan]

Why do I have to say tthat the killer would have had to sit in the hallway on the front stairs? I will never speculate such a thing. Bridget didn't see Lizzie, she only heard a laugh, and she thought it was Lizzie's laugh. She didn't see Lizzie laughing.

Well Franz, I'm quite sure it wasn't Mrs. Borden laughing, as she was dead. And I doubt it was the murderer laughing, since, according to your theory, the murderer still needed to kill Mr. Borden. I don't think it would have been too smart for the killer to laugh out loud while supposedly hiding. You just admitted above that Bridget "only heard a laugh". So, who do you think Bridget heard laughing?

[PossumPie]

I just don't understand why someone would sneak upstairs, kill an old woman, crouch in the room with her bleeding dead body for an hour and a half peeking out of a slat of a window hoping that Mr. Borden would HURRY UP and get home!!!
I would have waited until midnight the next day, sneak in and kill them both as they slept, and sneaked out. DONE. No getting people to say "I left my watch" no writing a note about a sick friend, no crouching in a room with a dead body for an hour and a half. One hard swing of the ax on Mr. Borden, one hard swing on Mrs. Borden before she can wake up, Boom! your done!

[Allen]

There is a problem with sneaking in and killing them as they slept. The bedroom doors were kept locked. They only left the key on the mantle when they were, of course, not in their room.

[Darrowfan]

There is a problem with sneaking in and killing them as they slept. The bedroom doors were kept locked. They only left the key on the mantle when they were, of course, not in their room.

True, Allen. Sneaking into the house at night was probably not a good option for any "intruder". A stranger would probably be hard pressed to attack both Bordens at once. In fact, it would probably have been difficult to kill both Abby and Andrew unless...you were a member of the household.

Just my two cents.

[Franz]

I repeat what I said:"Bridget didn't see Lizzie, she only heard a laugh, and she thought it was Lizzie's laugh. She didn't see Lizzie laughing." I was saying nothing but the facts, only the facts.

If I said: Bridget heard Lizzie laughing, I would not state a fact, but a speculation.

[Aamartin]

Didn't Lizzie have a high pitched voice? Wouldn't Bridget know if the laugh was that of someone else?

[PossumPie]

I repeat what I said:"Bridget didn't see Lizzie, she only heard a laugh, and she thought it was Lizzie's laugh. She didn't see Lizzie laughing." I was saying nothing but the facts, only the facts.

If I said: Bridget heard Lizzie laughing, I would not state a fact, but a speculation.

If any of my friends or relatives laughed, I am assured that I could tell you which one it was. A laugh is as unique as a voice. If your mother called you on the phone, are you saying you wouldn't know it was her until she said "this is your mother"? What if you were in a store, and heard a laugh in the next isle? Would you recognize your best friend's laugh?

[Allen]

A female laugh is usually distinctly different than a male laugh. A female voice is not as deep as a man, nor is their laughter. Unless you sound like Mercedes McCambridge from The Exorcist. Since Andrew was not at home, Abby was dead, and Bridget was at the door, who did that leave Franz? It is true that you know one persons voice from another. I can tell you who narrates commercials and documentaries from their voice. I know my children in a crowded room. You saying Bridget didn't know what Lizzie sounded like after living there with her for two years?

[Aamartin]

Plus-- if it was indeed an intruder-- why laugh? That would be an unnecessary risk to take. If I heard someone laughing from the 2nd story of my home (even if I was the maid) and didn't recognize it-- you can be darn sure I would check it out.

[Allen]

Plus-- if it was indeed an intruder-- why laugh? That would be an unnecessary risk to take. If I heard someone laughing from the 2nd story of my home (even if I was the maid) and didn't recognize it-- you can be darn sure I would check it out.

That's a good point. If you hear a strange voice in your home that is unknown to you, I doubt you are going to go about your day as if nothing happened and keep cleaning the windows.

[PossumPie]

Plus-- if it was indeed an intruder-- why laugh? That would be an unnecessary risk to take. If I heard someone laughing from the 2nd story of my home (even if I was the maid) and didn't recognize it-- you can be darn sure I would check it out.

That's a good point. If you hear a strange voice in your home that is unknown to you, I doubt you are going to go about your day as if nothing happened and keep cleaning the windows.

My interpretation of the "laugh" testimony was that Bridget was trying to unlock all those multiple locks, and being frustrated probably let out with an obscenity. Her testimony says that she said "pshaw" but I bet it was stronger than that. Lizzie upstairs was peeking down to see who Bridget was letting in, heard the obscenity and involuntarily laughed out loud. Bridget heard this, pinning Lizzie's position upstairs when Father came home. She realized in her inquest testimony that that puts her right beside the room her dead step-mother was in, a bad place to admit being. Lizzie then denied vehemently being upstairs after that first admission EVEN THOUGH Bridget swore that five minutes after she let Mr. Borden in, Lizzie came downstairs.

[Darrowfan]

Plus-- if it was indeed an intruder-- why laugh? That would be an unnecessary risk to take. If I heard someone laughing from the 2nd story of my home (even if I was the maid) and didn't recognize it-- you can be darn sure I would check it out.

That's a good point. If you hear a strange voice in your home that is unknown to you, I doubt you are going to go about your day as if nothing happened and keep cleaning the windows.

My interpretation of the "laugh" testimony was that Bridget was trying to unlock all those multiple locks, and being frustrated probably let out with an obscenity. Her testimony says that she said "pshaw" but I bet it was stronger than that. Lizzie upstairs was peeking down to see who Bridget was letting in, heard the obscenity and involuntarily laughed out loud. Bridget heard this, pinning Lizzie's position upstairs when Father came home. She realized in her inquest testimony that that puts her right beside the room her dead step-mother was in, a bad place to admit being. Lizzie then denied vehemently being upstairs after that first admission EVEN THOUGH Bridget swore that five minutes after she let Mr. Borden in, Lizzie came downstairs.

Agreed. I think that laugh definitely puts Lizzie upstairs at the same time Abby was laying there dead.

[twinsrwe]

My interpretation of the "laugh" testimony was that Bridget was trying to unlock all those multiple locks, and being frustrated probably let out with an obscenity. Her testimony says that she said "pshaw" but I bet it was stronger than that. Lizzie upstairs was peeking down to see who Bridget was letting in, heard the obscenity and involuntarily laughed out loud. Bridget heard this, pinning Lizzie's position upstairs when Father came home. She realized in her inquest testimony that that puts her right beside the room her dead step-mother was in, a bad place to admit being. Lizzie then denied vehemently being upstairs after that first admission EVEN THOUGH Bridget swore that five minutes after she let Mr. Borden in, Lizzie came downstairs.

Agreed. I think that laugh definitely puts Lizzie upstairs at the same time Abby was laying there dead.

I also agree! It couldn’t have been anyone but Lizzie.

[Allen]

The Phillips History of Fall River by Arthur Sherman Phillips. -- Fall River, Mass. : Privately printed ; Dover Press, 1944-1946.

Photo taken by the author of the book at the time of the trial.