Lizzie on Pinterest

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:47 pm

Kind of a one stop place for photographs pertaining to Lizzie, her life and those around her. It's a well done site. I question several photos, whether they are actually of Lizzie, but all the rest look pretty authentic. It's all in one spot which is helpful. Hopefully this link works:

www.pinterest.com/stexbluebonnets/lizzie-borden/

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:25 am

Thanks, irina, have taken a look.Interesting. Lizzie's large prominent light coloured eyes were certainly a dominating feature of her face, weren't they? For that reason I have a bit of a question mark over one supposed photo of her as a schoolgirl, (with a hat.)

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:36 am

Thanks for posting the link to Lizzie on Pinterest, Irina; the contents are quite interesting. There are some pictures on there that I haven't seen before, and some I doubt are of 'our' Lizzie. For example this one...

h51F0372B.jpg

The picture above has to be a fake; as well as this one...

4a45ae86775ad429e976d4de5ec77f79.jpg

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:58 am

I agree, Curryong, Lizzie's eye color is very much a dominating feature of her face. As for the photo of her as a school girl, I think the black and white photo shows her light colored eyes more then the tinted photo.

85c4ad3ad6cfa37baca144f3d2ff4246.jpg

article-2509695-197F5BEB00000578-82_306x394.jpg

article-2509695-197F5BE700000578-245_306x394.jpg

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:01 am

Those are two of the pictures I question and I think there are two more. I have an idea the pinner found pictures here and there labelled Lizzie Borden, and more than one woman has had that name. Amazing how many people have had the same name, even odd names in this world. The internet brings it all together.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:44 am

I'm not so sure either: the width and fullness of the lips and size-flatness of the ears make me wonder...they appear similar but not a match. Lizzie's eyes tilt down at the center and the left is set differently in her face than the right. The girl in the hat seems to have this same anomaly but the depth and openness of the eyes and the amount of visible eyelid don't seem quite right. The nose and general shape of the face are similar but Lizzie's nostrils appear mismatched (just as the placement of her eyes) and the girl in the hat picture has identical nostrils.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:06 pm

Well, let's try this...

85c4ad3ad6cfa37baca144f3d2ff4246.jpg

LIZZIE_BORDEN_1890.jpg

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:54 pm

Face.png

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:47 pm

Thanks for cropping those photos, debbiediablo. The eyes appear to be the same in both photos and the nose on the adult Lizzie appears to be slightly fuller, but the mouths are very different. I think the schoolgirl photo is Lizzie. Our appearance changes as we grow older; I certainly don't look like I did when I was a schoolgirl.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:10 pm

Some things do not change like the shape of lips and noses, the arch of a brow, the shape of eyes. The shape of Adult Lizzie's eyes are almost round and the outer corners tilt upward. The shape of School Girl's are more elliptical and the outer corners turn down. The lips are totally different. Thin narrow lips do not become full wide lips when approaching middle age. If anything, it's the other way around....:-) The shape of the nose and flare of nostrils are different. The fold between the upper lip and nose of School Girl is less pronounced and longer than the one we know is Lizzie. Lizzie's hair is curly to the point of fuzzy, including her eye brows. School girl's brows don't arch high enough and her hair appears to be straight. The proportion of width to length of face is different (these photos are cropped too closely to see). I don't think the school girl is Lizzie.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:18 pm

I have real doubts about the school girl photograph too. I have seen that photo before and thought the width of mouth and shape of face was different to Lizzie. Wonder what its provenance is?

I think the child standing beside a saw is a little boy, whose father may have been a carpenter or joiner or perhaps a woodsman. I have seen photos similar to that previously, in which the father's tools of trade are exhibited next to the small son as if to say "My boy will follow me!"

I don't think the baby photo on Pininterest is of Lizzie either, the clothing's wrong for a baby in the 1860's.

The family group is certainly not of our family. There's no family resemblance to 'our Bordens' whatsoever, Andrew is too young on the photo, the difference in age between the daughters isn't correct. When Lizzie, was a schoolgirl of, say, eight, then Emma would have been a young woman of eighteen. The photo doesn't reflect that at all. Even if Emma was a very under-developed eighteen year old (and the older girl is as 'flat as a pancake',) Emma still wouldn't have been wearing short skirts at 18. In addition the family clothing is of the 1890's!

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:53 pm

I have seen the picture of the girl in the hat all over the place as a picture of Lizzie as a school girl. I think there is provenance on this one. Lizzie's eyes are set different from average and the result is startling. The child with the saw appears to be from a different time than Lizzie's young years. For some reason the quality of the photo looks later than the 1860s.

I actually checked back in to comment on Lizzie's eyes. Someone mentioned her "pale" eyes. It's possible her eyes weren't real pale in color. On 'Warps and Wefts' someone who knew Lizzie in life mentioned that she had "beautiful" eyes but didn't mention the color. Some if not all film in those days could not properly photograph the color blue. That seems odd since the end result was black and white. This was a problem in silent film days~for example why Fatty Arbuckle's blue eyes look white on film. Photographer James Wong Howe, working with actress Mary Miles Minter, found a way to overcome this by having the blue eyed subject focus on a piece of black velvet fabric. MMM's eyes were said to be of a violet color.

So back to Lizzie, her eyes may have been a regular shade of blue which photographed very pale~or not. In my opinion if her eyes were very pale in color I would expect to read a number of comments about her icy blue eyes or something similar. I don't remember ever reading anything like that.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:22 pm

Lizzie age 16 or 17.png

Tin-eye shows the picture of the school girl in the hat appearing nine times online which does not include forums like this. Many of those nine are from the site that shall not be mentioned where other fake pictures are posted as jokes. I don't know if the picture has provenance, but even if it does, those parts of a person which do not change are different in the two pictures. I agree. Her eyes are very different...also very different from the school girl....in shape, openness and epicanthus. The real Lizzie looks like she's had an outer eye lift...

:-) The school girl looks like she might have strabismus although it may be the camera angle. Here's Lizzie taken in 1877 next to the school girl. The ear lobe of the real Lizzie extends slightly below her nose; the one on the school girl stops slightly above the nose. I recall reading that Lizzie's eyes were gray although I don't recall where or who said it.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:45 pm

Face_rec12.pdf

The 6-th International Conference on Pattern Recognition and Image Analysis
October 21-26, 2002, Velikiy Novgorod, Russia, pp. 707-711

THREE APPROACHES FOR FACE RECOGNITION

V.V. Starovoitov, D.I Samal, D.V. Briliuk

This is excellent for explaining how to make face comparisons...the places to compare that do not change from youth to old age.

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:56 pm

I made a reply which seems to have gotten lost in the ozone when I posted it....

Interesting points, Debbie. The real Lizzie and her mother sometimes look vaguely Hispanic in these old black and white photos.

In "The Sun", Thursday August 11, 1892, Lizzie is described thus by a reported on scene, "Her face was even more colorless than usual. The natural yellow of her complexion has changed to a sickly pallor." Then it continues, "Her grey eyes moved restlessly around the faces of the crowd..."

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:07 pm

Sarah was rather pretty in earlier pictures but the one with Emma as a young child makes her look a bit deranged. I've more than once wondered if that child could be Lizzie and not Emma. Sarah, Lizzie and even Emma (who looks much more like Andrew) had remarkably wide mouths and full lips. Emma's not so much but still unique given her otherwise sharp features.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:55 pm

Thanks debbie, for the comparison photo above of Lizzie in 1877 compared with the schoolgirl. As a 16/17 year old the features of the adult Lizzie are already present. As you say, there are full lips, the snub nose, even, sorry irina, a rather jowly appearance. I just can't twin this up to the schoolgirl photo at all. Lizzie either underwent some massive transformation in her mid teen years or, 'it ain't her!'

If it weren't for the shape of the mouth and the 1870's clothing I would have said it was a youthful Emma, as the schoolgirl looks as if she might have grown up with thin rather sharp features. I too, have read Lizzie had remarkable grey eyes, though in one newspaper report for the funeral cortège apparently they changed to flashing black ones! Maybe they reflected the colours around them!

Sarah Borden was regarded as quite pretty apparently, though I agree she does have a bit of a strange look in the photo with Emma. Maybe she was working herself up into a temper because of the extremely slow exposure time!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:33 am

Feb2008Cover325.jpg

Online promo reads The Hatchet Finds a New Lizzie Borden image...but I'm still a disbeliever. Even if it has "Lizzie age 9" inscribed on the back, I'll find it hard to believe 'til a specialist in the facial identification algorithms says School Girl is Lizzie. The eyes do look somewhat alike, and they are uniqie. But not the eyelids or the shape of the eyes or the epicanthus or the amount of white showing under the pupil. Even the their depth in her skull and the shape of her head seem all wrong. Irina, you are right, this photo does appear to be determined as a Lizzie, except methinks more than the eyes need to look like her!!

Child in newly discovered photo believed to be Lizzie Borden
February 16, 2008

It may be a new image of Lizzie Borden: An angelic 8- or 9-year-old girl with a hint of baby fat still noticeable in her creamy white cheeks. In the black-and-white photograph, she seems proud of the feather in her straw hat and her wool coat with a satin-lined collar.

That is far from the prevailing impression of Borden. Despite her acquittal at trial, she is commonly depicted as an ax-wielding spinster who got away with the slaying of her father and stepmother in Fall River in 1892.

The photograph, which does not identify the girl, was found last month in the collection of the Swansea Historical Society by Stefani Koorey, publisher of "The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies."

"I've been staring at her face for about 20 years," Koorey said yesterday from her home in Orlando, Fla. "I know those eyes."

It would be the earliest known photograph of Borden. The discovery has caused a stir at the historical society, said president Carl Becker, who is hoping that the flash of notoriety will help pay for a new heater.

For Borden enthusiasts, it's a new window into a 115-year-old crime.

"There's an innocence in this photograph that I have not seen in other images of her," Koorey said. "It's nice to see someone - whether she was guilty or not - before the world caved in."

ANDREW RYAN

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:53 am

Lizzie and the School Girl white on black....

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:59 am

No, sorry, I have examined all the photos closely. I cannot see the adult or even teen Lizzie in the features of the school girl.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:04 am

Me either, and this photo seems to be accepted as being the 9 year-old Lizzie...one more comparison photo to satisfy my OCD...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:42 am

I can accept the eyes being her, funnily enough, more than I can the nose and mouth, especially the mouth plus the jaw line.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:53 am

I can't see it at all even when I look at her eyes, although I see why the pupil of right eye might somewhat resemble Lizzie. Lizzie's eyes are so round and protruding that she is almost bug-eyed, which makes me wonder if she had thyroid problems.

Now there's a new book: Lizzie did it while in the grip of hyperthyroid mania.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:06 am

It's a pity her lawyers didn't think of that! They could have built a whole case about it not being her fault and her thyroid making her do it!

I agree, though, her eyes bulge out and dominate her entire face in the strangest way. Neither parents' eyes were that prominent, were they? Have to have another look at Sarah, (who looks downright sulky in the photo of her and Emma). There's a strange look in her eyes as well.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:23 am

Look at those pictures~~~doesn't Lizzie have detached ear lobes while the school girl has attached lobes? Looks like it. I tried to search out the origins of the picture and possibly traced it to the nameless site Debbie mentioned. On that site it isn't absolutely defined as a picture of Lizzie, but as a family picture. It could be a girl on the Morse side of the family for example.

With all due respect to the face recognition pseudo-science, I remember big mistakes like identifying Anna Anderson as the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Recently computerized facial recognition almost definitely identified cattle queen Ann Bassett as Etta Place in the famous photograph with the Sun Dance Kid in NY. It is almost impossible that the woman in the picture could have been Ann Bassett as her activities at the time are probably known and she wasn't in New York.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:46 pm

I never believed that Anna Anderson was the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Too many gaps in her story, including her ignorance of English which the Grand Duchesses used when communicating with their mother. Facially, except perhaps for the colour of her eyes, the two looked dissimilar, especially around the mouth. I think mrs Anderson, poor woman, was so mentally ill that with the passing of the years she grew to believe the myth herself.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:22 pm

Computerized facial recognition is making giant leaps especially in the realm of 3-D which will be similar to identifying via fingerprints except it will use the individually unique underlying bony structure of the skull; however, the bottom line is some features do not change like ear lobes, where ears sit in relationship to the eyes and nose, shape of nostrils and width between the eyes and of the entire face. My thoughts are similar to yours, Irina, maybe she's a Borden or Morse relative. Uncle John's eyes were a mismatch but I haven't attempted to zoom in and compare the anomaly with Lizzie's. From what I read the folks at lizzieborden.com found school girl and believe it to be real. I don't, and I probably won't.

I, too, think Anna Anderson believed her own myth.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:46 pm

My heritage is White Russian. It is said Anna Anderson was heavily schooled in things she should know. The Tsar had a lot of money in banks all over the civilised world and there was a lot of reason to latch onto an heir and turn some of it loose~among other things. Franziska Schanzkowska was a Polish factory worker. She worked in a munitions factory and a bomb blew up on the assembly line. She was badly damaged and if I remember correctly a fellow she was in love with was killed. She also had TB. So she was severely ill all the way around. It is only within the last few years that DNA was able to prove a few things, and that the bodies of the Imperial Family were finally found. There was reasonable doubt that everyone died, for about 80 years.

Let's start the rumor that the school girl picture is Lizzie's twin~evil or not. May we say the real Lizzie was fishing at Marion on August 4 and her twin was visiting 92 Second St.....???

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:07 pm

Separated at Birth?!?!?

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:43 pm

Wow! She looks good with a beard! Parents dressed little boys like little girls back in those days too. Perfect solution!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:57 pm

irina wrote:Wow! She looks good with a beard! Parents dressed little boys like little girls back in those days too. Perfect solution!

You made my point better than I did...

That's John V. Morse on the left, the maternal uncle to Lizzie and Emma.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:01 pm

Maybe School Girl is the skeleton in Uncle John's and Lizzie's joint closet.

That was a joke.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:15 pm

I mean NO disrespect whatsoever toward Stefani or Len, but viewing the above photos, especially the last one that Debbie posted of the eyes, really made me doubt that the schoolgirl photo is ‘OUR’ Lizzie.

In the newspaper article, attached below, by Deborah Allard, she states:

The photo of Lizzie was found in a small album with many unidentified pictures. ...

Along with that find, Koorey and Rebello discovered a similar album that was marked “Borden.” The Borden album contains a photo believed to be Emma, Lizzie’s sister, at age 5 to 7, a photograph of John Vinnicum Morse, their uncle, and photos of their parents, Andrew Jackson Borden and Sarah Anthony Morse Borden. About half of the 42 pictures are indentified in the Borden album.

The albums were donated to the Luther Museum by Hamilton Mason Gardner, a nephew of Orrin Augusta Gardner, a cousin of Lizzie and Emma who was especially close to Emma. She was waked at his Riverby home in the Touisset section of Swansea. Emma, upon her death, bequeathed many of her belongings to Orrin Gardner.

The inside cover of the Borden Album is marked “August 23, 1945.” In handwriting it also says, “Probably belonged to Emma and Lisbeth Borden. Their property came into possession of Orrin A. Gardner. Further, it is written, “Henry A Gardner Est. Album #6 of 9.” …

NOTE: Hamilton Mason Gardner, who donated the albums, was the son of William Gardner. After William died, Hamilton was raised by his uncle, Orrin Gardner.

herald1.jpg

herald2.jpg

Since picture of the schoolgirl was not in the “Borden” album, I am leaning very heavily toward believing that this picture may be of a young girl on the Gardner side of the family. It is also possible that this photo is of a young girl on the Morse side of the family, but my gut feeling is that it is from the Gardner family.

The family trees are as follows:

Zephaniah S. Mason married Susan Vinnicum, and together they had three children: William born in 1831, Ann Frances born in 1834 and Caroline Cole born in 1839.

Caroline Cole Mason married Henry Augustus Gardner on December 11, 1864, and together they had four children: Orrin born 1867, Frank born 1869, William born 1875, and Mabel born 1876.

Now then…

Anthony Morse married Rhonda Morrison, and together they had 13 children, of which three of these children were: Sarah Anthony born in 1823, William Bradford born in 1829, and John Vinnicum born in 1833.

Sarah Anthony married Andrew Jackson Borden, and together they had three children: Emma Lenora born in 1851, Alice Esther born in , and Lizzie Andrew born in 1860.

William Bradford Morse married Ann Frances Mason in 1856, and together they had nine children: Andrew LaFrone born 1857, Lydia Isabellr born in1859, Sarah Borden born in 1861, Susan Vinnicum Susie born in 1864, John Vinnicum born in 1868, Herbert Anthony born in 1872, Anna Esther born in 1874, William Mason born in 1876, and George Kennicut born in 1878.

John Vinnicum Morse did not marry.

~ Genealogies mostly obtained from MyTree.com and Ancestry.com.

So the family tie between the Borden sisters and Gardner family, is through the marriage of Ann Frances Mason and William Bradford Morse. In other words, Emma, Lizzie and Orrin were cousins by marriage.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:33 pm

twinsrwe wrote:I mean NO disrespect whatsoever toward Stefani or Len, but viewing the above photos, especially the last one that Debbie posted of the eyes, really made me doubt that the schoolgirl photo is ‘OUR’ Lizzie.

In the newspaper article, attached below, by Deborah Allard, she states:

The photo of Lizzie was found in a small album with many unidentified pictures. ...

Along with that find, Koorey and Rebello discovered a similar album that was marked “Borden.” The Borden album contains a photo believed to be Emma, Lizzie’s sister, at age 5 to 7, a photograph of John Vinnicum Morse, their uncle, and photos of their parents, Andrew Jackson Borden and Sarah Anthony Morse Borden. About half of the 42 pictures are indentified in the Borden album.

The albums were donated to the Luther Museum by Hamilton Mason Gardner, a nephew of Orrin Augusta Gardner, a cousin of Lizzie and Emma who was especially close to Emma. She was waked at his Riverby home in the Touisset section of Swansea. Emma, upon her death, bequeathed many of her belongings to Orrin Gardner.

The inside cover of the Borden Album is marked “August 23, 1945.” In handwriting it also says, “Probably belonged to Emma and Lisbeth Borden. Their property came into possession of Orrin A. Gardner. Further, it is written, “Henry A Gardner Est. Album #6 of 9.” …

NOTE: Hamilton Mason Gardner, who donated the albums, was the son of William Gardner. After William died, Hamilton was raised by his uncle, Orrin Gardner.

herald1.jpg

herald2.jpg

Since picture of the schoolgirl was not in the “Borden” album, I am leaning very heavily toward believing that this picture may be of a young girl on the Gardner side of the family. It is also possible that this photo is of a young girl on the Morse side of the family, but my gut feeling is that it is from the Gardner family.

The family trees are as follows:

Zephaniah S. Mason married Susan Vinnicum, and together they had three children: William born in 1831, Ann Frances born in 1834 and Caroline Cole born in 1839.

Caroline Cole Mason married Henry Augustus Gardner on December 11, 1864, and together they had four children: Orrin born 1867, Frank born 1869, William born 1875, and Mabel born 1876.

Now then…

Anthony Morse married Rhonda Morrison, and together they had 13 children, of which three of these children were: Sarah Anthony born in 1823, William Bradford born in 1829, and John Vinnicum born in 1833.

Sarah Anthony married Andrew Jackson Borden, and together they had three children: Emma Lenora born in 1851, Alice Esther born in , and Lizzie Andrew born in 1860.

William Bradford Morse married Ann Frances Mason in 1856, and together they had nine children: Andrew LaFrone born 1857, Lydia Isabellr born in1859, Sarah Borden born in 1861, Susan Vinnicum Susie born in 1864, John Vinnicum born in 1868, Herbert Anthony born in 1872, Anna Esther born in 1874, William Mason born in 1876, and George Kennicut born in 1878.

John Vinnicum Morse did not marry.

~ Genealogies mostly obtained from MyTree.com and Ancestry.com.

So the family tie between the Borden sisters and Gardner family, is through the marriage of Ann Frances Mason and William Bradford Morse. In other words, Emma, Lizzie and Orrin were cousins by marriage.

I mean no disrespect either, but this child is more likely a cousin of Lizzie and Emma which would account for the slight resemblance. Thank you, Twinsrwe, for this information. You have "let the forum receive the light," to paraphrase a movie about another infamous killer...

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:57 pm

You're welcome, Debbie. I agree, the girl in the schoolgirl photo could be one of the 4 girls that William Bradford and Ann Frances had. The schoolgirl's eyes are very similar to John V. Morse's eyes, and since William was John's brother, it could very well be one of his girls. Perhaps, Ann gave this photo to her parents, for whatever occasion the little girl was dressed-up for.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:39 pm

William Bradford Morse's daughter Susan Vinnicum, who was born in 1864, is about the right age, perhaps. Of course it could be achildhood photo of a more distant relative or family friend. It might be, heaven forbid, one of Andrew's illegitimate children by one of the maids. She sent a photo of his daughter and he kept it for sentimental reasons.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:53 pm

Curryong, you have solved the mystery of who committed the Borden murders. Andrew's illegitimate daughter aka School Girl killed both of them because she, too, wanted to inherit. Emma and Lizzie wisely paid her off.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:41 pm

OMG, you two are funny!

Seriously, though, you may be right, Curryong, in saying that this could be Susan Vinnicum. However, it could also be Sarah Borden who was born in 1861; she was closer to Lizzie's age than Susan was.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:58 pm

I've just been looking for physical descriptions of Lizzie and found an interesting 2009 thread 'Lizzie's mannish nature and low voice'. The thread does veer into discussions of whether Lizzie might be lesbian (untrue in my opinion) but there are some heartfelt tributes to Lizzie from her friends quoted there too.

The point of this post is though, that I never knew Lizzie had a lot of dental work done and a gold tooth or teeth. A poster quotes Agnes deMilles' book and it says (page 27) that Lizzie opened her mouth wide when she laughed, showing a gleam of gold. She also states that Lizzie's laugh unnerved her schoolmates as a child as it was 'loud and mirthless' !

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:00 am

Curryong wrote:I've just been looking for physical descriptions of Lizzie and found an interesting 2009 thread 'Lizzie's mannish nature and low voice'. The thread does veer into discussions of whether Lizzie might be lesbian (untrue in my opinion) but there are some heartfelt tributes to Lizzie from her friends quoted there too.

Is this the thread you are referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4401

Curryong wrote:The point of this post is though, that I never knew Lizzie had a lot of dental work done and a gold tooth or teeth. A poster quotes Agnes deMilles' book and it says (page 27) that Lizzie opened her mouth wide when she laughed, showing a gleam of gold. She also states that Lizzie's laugh unnerved her schoolmates as a child as it was 'loud and mirthless' !

Now that’s interesting! Who would have thought? I read through the above link and also found it interesting that 'there was a gleam of gold when she smiled.’ No wonder there are no pictures of her smiling!

Agnes DeMille's book, page 27:

She had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and when she laughed, her laugh was memorable--unexpected, mirthless and very loud. At school it had unnerved her classmates. Jokes were one of the things she did not choose to share.

It's no wonder that she avoided jokes!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:31 am

twinsrwe wrote:
Curryong wrote:I've just been looking for physical descriptions of Lizzie and found an interesting 2009 thread 'Lizzie's mannish nature and low voice'. The thread does veer into discussions of whether Lizzie might be lesbian (untrue in my opinion) but there are some heartfelt tributes to Lizzie from her friends quoted there too.
Is this the thread you are referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4401

Curryong wrote:The point of this post is though, that I never knew Lizzie had a lot of dental work done and a gold tooth or teeth. A poster quotes Agnes deMilles' book and it says (page 27) that Lizzie opened her mouth wide when she laughed, showing a gleam of gold. She also states that Lizzie's laugh unnerved her schoolmates as a child as it was 'loud and mirthless' !
Now that’s interesting! Who would have thought? I read through the above link and also found it interesting that 'there was a gleam of gold when she smiled.’ No wonder there are no pictures of her smiling!

Agnes DeMille's book, page 27:

She had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and when she laughed, her laugh was memorable--unexpected, mirthless and very loud. At school it had unnerved her classmates. Jokes were one of the things she did not choose to share.

It's no wonder that she avoided jokes!

Two times I recall Lizzie laughing were when Bridget muttered Pshit! at the locked door (Masterson is funny) and when the cow outside the courthouse spent the afternoon mooing. The second time was more like a smile rather than truly laughing. I, too, recall that her laugh unnerved people.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:37 am

Thank you for the correct thread, twinsrwe. As always you come up with the right reference!

Wasn't Lizzie 'amused' when Officer Harrington gave his description in court of her pink striped wrapper? I wonder which tooth or teeth it was? It surely wouldn't have been a front one. I can remember as a child seeing the occasional elderly adult with a gold tooth or two. I think that fashion has completely vanished, however.

The Victorians weren't in the habit of grinning showing all their teeth in photographs anyway, but goodness knows how it would have photographed in black and white. As if the person had a mouthful of rotten teeth, I suspect!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:51 am

I've looked at the pics with a medical eye. One thing that absolutely does NOT change as we age is our Earlobe attachment. It is an over-simplification to say genetics gives us either attached or unattached lobes ( there are wide variation between people with regard to attachment points) BUT one thing is agreed on If you are born with unattached lobes they stay unattached throughout life. Both 16 yr. old Lizzie and adult Lizzie have UNATTACHED lobes. I downloaded both sets of pics, de-speckled them, cleaned up the contrast and beyond reasonable doubt the alleged child Lizzie has ATTACHED lobes therefore she is NOT Lizzie Borden.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:28 am

Curryong wrote:Thank you for the correct thread, twinsrwe. As always you come up with the right reference!

Wasn't Lizzie 'amused' when Officer Harrington gave his description in court of her pink striped wrapper? I wonder which tooth or teeth it was? It surely wouldn't have been a front one. I can remember as a child seeing the occasional elderly adult with a gold tooth or two. I think that fashion has completely vanished, however.

The Victorians weren't in the habit of grinning showing all their teeth in photographs anyway, but goodness knows how it would have photographed in black and white. As if the person had a mouthful of rotten teeth, I suspect!

You're welcome!

If Agnes DeMille was correct in stating that '... there was a gleam of gold when she smiled', then I tend to think that Lizzie's front teeth were gold or partially gold. Poor Lizzie! My father had a partial front tooth that my siblings and I thought was pretty cool. However, his gold tooth did not stop him from smiling when a picture was taken.

It’s true that anyone having their photo taken in the 19th century were posed without smiling. What a shame, but then you have a good point in mentioning how gold teeth would appear in black and white photos. Yikes!

irina · Post by **irina** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:55 pm

Thanks Possum! That's exactly what I thought! School Girl had attached ear lobes.

I think I copied a few crumbs from the old papers that commented on Lizzie's appearance. One mentioned "massive physique". This was also applied to Bridget so perhaps it was a mix-up in reporting. Another said Lizzie was "muscular". How in the heck can anyone guess musculature under leg of mutton sleeves and long skirts. How can anyone call a 5'4" woman "massive"? In general the one sentence descriptions emphasize Lizzie's apparent strength whether physical or personality.

Thank God I wasn't born back then as I am 5'9". I would surely have been called a monster. :alcohol:

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:16 pm

Maybe a an Amazon or a giantess...

Too funny, Irina, and good point. Newspapers wrote what would sell. Truth was secondary to circulation.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:16 am

It might have been the fault of that piece of gossip in the witness statements (from a Mrs Potter and Miss Dinan, milliners of 4th St, no less,) that spoke of Lizzie having been exercising in a gym in the Troy Block in town. She was supposed to have boasted of her strength. It's doubtful she went anywhere near a gym but it's interesting that it turns up in town gossip.

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:40 am

I remember that comment about the gym and never understood it. If Lizzie was interested in theater in those days do you suppose she could have taken dance lessons? Or maybe more realistically maybe she took ballroom dance lessons? Could just be gossip too.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:18 am

She would certainly have taken ballroom dance lessons at one point in her life if, as I believe I've read, she went to the occasional dance. Perhaps at school.

At my (all girls) school it was offered as an extra in the last two senior years. We learned the waltz, polka and the quick-step among other dances, and there was an end of term dance held, which pupils at the local boys school attended.

It was an old tradition of nearly one hundred years, and there may have been something like that at Lizzie's high school. It's said that she took piano lessons at school, gave it up because she felt she wasn't very good, and resumed lessons some years after the murders.