Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
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- Kat
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Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I found this article this week and thought you might like it. Harry transcribed it for us!
Just a small peek into our Borden girls lives in 1899!
I will post it as a download PDF and also copy/paste Har's typed copy.
Just a small peek into our Borden girls lives in 1899!
I will post it as a download PDF and also copy/paste Har's typed copy.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Kat
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The Montreal Gazette. August 5, 1899
THE BORDEN MYSTERY.
Lizzie Borden’s Quiet Life With Her
Sister Emma.
[Fall River Cor. New York World.]
Next Friday will be the seventh anniversary of the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden. It will be recalled that this aged couple were killed by an assassin with an axe in the forenoon of a day when travel was at its height, when they were in their home, in Second street, but two blocks away from City Hall when their daughter Lizzie and a servant girl, Bridget Sullivan, were the only known people about the premises.
It will be recalled that the daughter was accused and imprisoned, that she stood trial and was acquitted, and that the whole case is still wrapped in mystery.
Lizzie A. and Emma, the daughters of the thrifty old man of 70 years, and the sole heirs to a half million dollars, live together in the aristocratic section of the city. Two miles of city buildings separate them from the old homestead on Second street, now occupied as a two-family house. They seldom see it, and never when they can avoid it.
At the time of the trial it was urged as a motive for the crime by the police, that the prisoner desired to enter social life, which was denied her because of her father’s penuriousness and her stepmother’s influence over him. The money that has come to her by death has certainly not aided her in attaining her desire, if that has been her desire at any time. Were it not for the presence of those friends who still cling to her, her life would be cheerless, for social hate has entered into it.
The new home she purchased on French street had been occupied by a family who brightened it in every conceivable way. Since the Bordens moved in, heavy iron bars have been placed on all the cellar windows, the blinds are rarely opened, and heavy vines have been trimmed to obscure the piazzas from all passers-by. The only servants employed are a single work girl and a man of all work. He drives the family carriage.
Shortly after the Misses Borden went to live in their new home they made successful overtures fro the removal of a tenement house that adjoined their property too closely. The lot on which it stood is vacant, buts its surface is carpeted in green, and it is bounded by a stone wall that runs around the east and north sides of the property.
There was another vacant lot directly opposite the house which offered a chance for close observers. It was bought by representatives of the two girls, and they now have its lawn carefully kept, despite the fact that it is across the street, and protects no view.
Lizzie Borden travels frequently, but does not remain away any great length of time. She does not sign her own name on the hotel registers. Emma, on the contrary, seldom goes out of the state. The two girls frequently go out in their carriage together. They ride frequently along the country drives or over to their farm in Swansea.
Sometimes they go shopping together, but as a rule that is done out of town, where attention and possible rebuffs are avoided. They both have frequent consultation with their lawyer Andrew J. Jennings, who stood by them so well, and their agent Mr. Cook, who looks after all their property and who has all the direct dealings with the numerous tenants.
They have never been known to go to church in the past six years. They take no part in church matters, and many of the Church people have cut them forever.
Lizzie recently began to take music lessons. It is also said that she takes lessons in painting. Her hobby, appears to be street pianos and hudy-gurdies. These instruments are wheeled up to her door night after night, and the neighbors remark that a dollar is the reward that is paid for a long grinding. A woman with an accordion or a tambourine is quite a acceptable as the lively piano tintillations of “Way Down in Georgia.”
The only pet on the premises is a black cat. It was sent from New York by a fancier, and has grown from kittenhood to be lord of Miss Borden’s back wall. She fondles and pets it, and it follows her about the yard like a dog.
Much of the women’s money is being spent in a charitable way, but they strictly enjoin anyone from remarking in public concerning it. They have contributed freely to local hospitals, to other kindred institutions, to the support of families they knew in their younger days, to the children of the poor, when application is made to them. In this respect Lizzie’s generosity has been remarkable.
The rewards that were offered for the apprehension of the murderer still hold good provided some one turns up to earn them.
THE BORDEN MYSTERY.
Lizzie Borden’s Quiet Life With Her
Sister Emma.
[Fall River Cor. New York World.]
Next Friday will be the seventh anniversary of the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden. It will be recalled that this aged couple were killed by an assassin with an axe in the forenoon of a day when travel was at its height, when they were in their home, in Second street, but two blocks away from City Hall when their daughter Lizzie and a servant girl, Bridget Sullivan, were the only known people about the premises.
It will be recalled that the daughter was accused and imprisoned, that she stood trial and was acquitted, and that the whole case is still wrapped in mystery.
Lizzie A. and Emma, the daughters of the thrifty old man of 70 years, and the sole heirs to a half million dollars, live together in the aristocratic section of the city. Two miles of city buildings separate them from the old homestead on Second street, now occupied as a two-family house. They seldom see it, and never when they can avoid it.
At the time of the trial it was urged as a motive for the crime by the police, that the prisoner desired to enter social life, which was denied her because of her father’s penuriousness and her stepmother’s influence over him. The money that has come to her by death has certainly not aided her in attaining her desire, if that has been her desire at any time. Were it not for the presence of those friends who still cling to her, her life would be cheerless, for social hate has entered into it.
The new home she purchased on French street had been occupied by a family who brightened it in every conceivable way. Since the Bordens moved in, heavy iron bars have been placed on all the cellar windows, the blinds are rarely opened, and heavy vines have been trimmed to obscure the piazzas from all passers-by. The only servants employed are a single work girl and a man of all work. He drives the family carriage.
Shortly after the Misses Borden went to live in their new home they made successful overtures fro the removal of a tenement house that adjoined their property too closely. The lot on which it stood is vacant, buts its surface is carpeted in green, and it is bounded by a stone wall that runs around the east and north sides of the property.
There was another vacant lot directly opposite the house which offered a chance for close observers. It was bought by representatives of the two girls, and they now have its lawn carefully kept, despite the fact that it is across the street, and protects no view.
Lizzie Borden travels frequently, but does not remain away any great length of time. She does not sign her own name on the hotel registers. Emma, on the contrary, seldom goes out of the state. The two girls frequently go out in their carriage together. They ride frequently along the country drives or over to their farm in Swansea.
Sometimes they go shopping together, but as a rule that is done out of town, where attention and possible rebuffs are avoided. They both have frequent consultation with their lawyer Andrew J. Jennings, who stood by them so well, and their agent Mr. Cook, who looks after all their property and who has all the direct dealings with the numerous tenants.
They have never been known to go to church in the past six years. They take no part in church matters, and many of the Church people have cut them forever.
Lizzie recently began to take music lessons. It is also said that she takes lessons in painting. Her hobby, appears to be street pianos and hudy-gurdies. These instruments are wheeled up to her door night after night, and the neighbors remark that a dollar is the reward that is paid for a long grinding. A woman with an accordion or a tambourine is quite a acceptable as the lively piano tintillations of “Way Down in Georgia.”
The only pet on the premises is a black cat. It was sent from New York by a fancier, and has grown from kittenhood to be lord of Miss Borden’s back wall. She fondles and pets it, and it follows her about the yard like a dog.
Much of the women’s money is being spent in a charitable way, but they strictly enjoin anyone from remarking in public concerning it. They have contributed freely to local hospitals, to other kindred institutions, to the support of families they knew in their younger days, to the children of the poor, when application is made to them. In this respect Lizzie’s generosity has been remarkable.
The rewards that were offered for the apprehension of the murderer still hold good provided some one turns up to earn them.
- twinsrwe
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Wow, Kat, what a wonderful find! Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Harry, thank you for transcribing it for us.

Harry, thank you for transcribing it for us.

In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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- Kat
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- Kat
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- twinsrwe
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Thanks for these additional tidbits, Kat.
Lizzie’s reaction to the inspection of the Borden grave marker holds yet another mystery for us, doesn’t it? A person’s reactions, as well as their actions, tell a story which leads us to believe in a person’s guilt, one way or the other. Perhaps Lizzie’s reaction to the grave maker was one more reason why many of the citizens of Fall River believed that, in spite of her acquittal, she was the killer, and therefore ostracized her for the rest of her life.
Lizzie’s reaction to the inspection of the Borden grave marker holds yet another mystery for us, doesn’t it? A person’s reactions, as well as their actions, tell a story which leads us to believe in a person’s guilt, one way or the other. Perhaps Lizzie’s reaction to the grave maker was one more reason why many of the citizens of Fall River believed that, in spite of her acquittal, she was the killer, and therefore ostracized her for the rest of her life.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Yooper
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There may be several possibilities for Lizzie's merely glancing at the monument, we have to be careful not to presume too much. There may have been several onlookers which Lizzie wanted to avoid, for instance. We know there was at least one if the story is correct, and probably more as implied by the item. There would have been no better opportunity for a sarcastic remark when I think about it.
It's hard to imagine Emma consciously creating the disparity by intentionally lingering at the monument to the purpose of contrasting Lizzie's mere glance. Emma likely wanted to verify that names, dates, and the arrangement on the stone were correct, and Emma's word was probably good enough for Lizzie.
It's hard to imagine Emma consciously creating the disparity by intentionally lingering at the monument to the purpose of contrasting Lizzie's mere glance. Emma likely wanted to verify that names, dates, and the arrangement on the stone were correct, and Emma's word was probably good enough for Lizzie.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
- twinsrwe
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You are absolutely right, Jeff, anything is possible. This isn't the first time that we have come across Lizzie's actions as appearing mysterious.Yooper @ Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:03 am wrote:There may be several possibilities for Lizzie's merely glancing at the monument, we have to be careful not to presume too much. ...
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Harry
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Quote] "Lizzie recently began to take music lessons. It is also said that she takes lessons in painting. Her hobby, appears to be street pianos and hudy-gurdies. These instruments are wheeled up to her door night after night, and the neighbors remark that a dollar is the reward that is paid for a long grinding."
There are several videos on YouTube of a young lady playing a hurdy gurdy. Sounds like bad bagpipes to me.
If the neighbors had to listen to this night after night no wonder nobody spoke to her,
http://tinyurl.com/23zsu8r
There are several videos on YouTube of a young lady playing a hurdy gurdy. Sounds like bad bagpipes to me.
If the neighbors had to listen to this night after night no wonder nobody spoke to her,

http://tinyurl.com/23zsu8r
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
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And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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- xyjw
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I love the article from the Montreal Gazette. The newspaper clippings about Christian Endeavor are interesting too. The hurdy-gurdy music every evening would drive me nuts! We have an ice-cream truck that delivers two or three times a day now that summer is here and it plays the same "music" every time it arrives. The music sounds like a piano of some sort, but I'm not really sure what it is. Thanks for those Harry and Kat.
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She should have had this lad on her porch at sundown, and sunrise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzstMw2ZB30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzstMw2ZB30
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Thanks for sharing these contemporary accounts-- all the minutiae of what the Two Sisters were up to; especially interesting to me, the ongoing attatchment to the farm ... if indeed Mr. A. J. was thinking of bequeathing it out of the family, given the previous rows over property, how that might have set off a bomb in the household.
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Think I found the lyrics to the hurdy-gurdy man's "Way Down in Georgia"-- a "folk song" in slave dialect after the style of Stephen Foster. Of course, it would be nice to know the melody that accompanies the lyrics:
Partial lyrics-- just the first verse
Choppin in de cotton an a-whistlin ober chune
Way Down in Georgia
Pickin ob de banjo in de light ob de moon
Way Down in Georgia
Sittin on er log wif mah Nanny Loo
Way Down in Georgia
Wishin had er cabin to take huh to
Way Down in Georgia
Partial lyrics-- just the first verse
Choppin in de cotton an a-whistlin ober chune
Way Down in Georgia
Pickin ob de banjo in de light ob de moon
Way Down in Georgia
Sittin on er log wif mah Nanny Loo
Way Down in Georgia
Wishin had er cabin to take huh to
Way Down in Georgia
- nbcatlover
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The interest in Georgia may be from the same vein as her interest in Scotland.
Great-grandfather James Morrison (aka Morrowson) became owner of a Freetown sloop called the Friendship in partnership with Samuel Weaver (Master:Nathan Weaver). These Freetown sloops were supposed to be involved in the transporting of lumber from the South--often wintering in Darien, GA--a town founded by Scottish highlanders.
Source: A History of the Town of Freetown with an account of the Old Home Festival, July 30th, 1902. Press of J. H. Franklin & Co., 1902.
A Whitwell relative moved his family to Sunbury, GA, for a time before returning to Fairhaven, MA.
See Anne Warner's AN AMERICAN ANCESTRY (Googlebooks onliine).
I've also been told that there was family for a time in Riceborough, GA (undocumented at this time).
I think this would be enough to pique Lizzie's interest in Georgia (though it would be nice to know what the music sounded like...).
Great-grandfather James Morrison (aka Morrowson) became owner of a Freetown sloop called the Friendship in partnership with Samuel Weaver (Master:Nathan Weaver). These Freetown sloops were supposed to be involved in the transporting of lumber from the South--often wintering in Darien, GA--a town founded by Scottish highlanders.
Source: A History of the Town of Freetown with an account of the Old Home Festival, July 30th, 1902. Press of J. H. Franklin & Co., 1902.
A Whitwell relative moved his family to Sunbury, GA, for a time before returning to Fairhaven, MA.
See Anne Warner's AN AMERICAN ANCESTRY (Googlebooks onliine).
I've also been told that there was family for a time in Riceborough, GA (undocumented at this time).
I think this would be enough to pique Lizzie's interest in Georgia (though it would be nice to know what the music sounded like...).
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Great articles, Harry and Kat! Thank you for posting and transcribing them.
The 'hurdy-gurdy' does sound like bagpipes - bad bagpipes. Maybe Lizzie's love of Scotland drew her to these.
Re the part from the August 5, 1899 article in the Montreal Gazette, it says, "They both have frequent consultation with their lawyer Andrew J. Jennings..."
How can that have been when, according to Jennings' grandson, Edward, told the Brockton Sunday Advertiser on September 13, 1992 that after she was caught shoplifting in Providence, "...My grandfather [Andrew J. Jennings, Lizzie's defense attorney] got her off, then came home and said, "I will have nothing to do with that woman.'" (Rebello, page 304)
The Tilden-Thurber incident took place in 1897 (Rebello, page 304)
The 'hurdy-gurdy' does sound like bagpipes - bad bagpipes. Maybe Lizzie's love of Scotland drew her to these.
Re the part from the August 5, 1899 article in the Montreal Gazette, it says, "They both have frequent consultation with their lawyer Andrew J. Jennings..."
How can that have been when, according to Jennings' grandson, Edward, told the Brockton Sunday Advertiser on September 13, 1992 that after she was caught shoplifting in Providence, "...My grandfather [Andrew J. Jennings, Lizzie's defense attorney] got her off, then came home and said, "I will have nothing to do with that woman.'" (Rebello, page 304)
The Tilden-Thurber incident took place in 1897 (Rebello, page 304)
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- nbcatlover
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Regarding Lizzie's music, I thought I had read somewhere that she played the piano in the parlor, but someone (in the family?) criticized her playing and she gave it up. l was under the impression she was still in school when this occurred.
I don't know if this had any basis in fact or whether it was just some wild newspaper story. If the story is true, Lizzie taking music lessons might show she had renewed confidence in her own abilities.
I don't know if this had any basis in fact or whether it was just some wild newspaper story. If the story is true, Lizzie taking music lessons might show she had renewed confidence in her own abilities.
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- irina
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Really interesting information to add. The first newspaper article is transcribed by Kat in the second post. No need to click the link to the article which is difficult to read.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Yes, it is a very interesting article. Thanks for bringing it back.
I think it's also on another thread which was started after I joined, 'Life after Murder' or something like that, because I remember posting on it about the sisters' obvious isolation.
I think it's also on another thread which was started after I joined, 'Life after Murder' or something like that, because I remember posting on it about the sisters' obvious isolation.
- irina
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I'm wondering HOW isolated they were. When I think about why I think Lizzie is some shade of innocent is because she did have some old friends and family members. I don't know any of them well enough to have definite ideas about them. Lizzie didn't have the social life she had dreamed of but sometimes I have the idea she did have social contacts and loyal~and very decent~people in her life. It is my feeling that if she was simply cold blooded and greedy she would not have had these associates. So for me, if she is proved to be guilty, there has to be more to it. Like maybe people close to her knew something extenuating that at least partially excused the murders. That I think would make a very interesting book. Guilty or innocent we are really missing something and I don't know what it is.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I doubt there's anything extenuating that would allow normal, decent people to be knowingly uber-friendly with someone who axed her parents to death the way Lizzie may have. If something so incredibly heinous went on in that house that they thought Andrew and Abby deserved it then call the police! Funny thing is serial killers get married in prison, often while on death row. Some of them are married or in a serious relationship when they commit a string of sadistically brutal murders (think Ted Bundy, BTK and Tommy Lynn Sells) and their partners are often dismayed...or sometimes suspect something but deliberately avoid facing the facts. People can be attracted to danger although it's probably safe to say if Lizzie posed a threat it was only to Andrew and Abby. Then again, who knows whether Emma felt in danger when she left forever. I don't think Lizzie's 'shade' of innocence has much to do with later friendships; most likely her friends saw her with minimal ambivalence - wronged and incapable of murder.
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Charles Manson just got married too.
I can understand Lizzie having friends. I can understand Nance O'Neil and her actor friends being friends with Lizzie. But in the mix are some cousins and established Fall River people. There is a newspaper item in 1896 or so that says there is a rumor that Lizzie is going to marry Orrin Gardener, a cousin somewhat removed. I figured it was just a rumor and someone had denied it even then. If all Lizzie's friends after 1892 were somewhat Bohemian I would say it didn't mean anything. That some of them are as I mentioned implies to me that they either believed her innocent or knew and understood the reason why she did it. I don't think they would have been understanding if the reason was social standing and pure greed. It's possible that if the whole story was known, even if she was guilty all the way, there is something much more profound than we have guessed.
I can understand Lizzie having friends. I can understand Nance O'Neil and her actor friends being friends with Lizzie. But in the mix are some cousins and established Fall River people. There is a newspaper item in 1896 or so that says there is a rumor that Lizzie is going to marry Orrin Gardener, a cousin somewhat removed. I figured it was just a rumor and someone had denied it even then. If all Lizzie's friends after 1892 were somewhat Bohemian I would say it didn't mean anything. That some of them are as I mentioned implies to me that they either believed her innocent or knew and understood the reason why she did it. I don't think they would have been understanding if the reason was social standing and pure greed. It's possible that if the whole story was known, even if she was guilty all the way, there is something much more profound than we have guessed.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- twinsrwe
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Charles 'Tex' Watson is another good example of serial killers getting married, while they are in prison. He not only got married while in prison, he had four children from conjugal visits! As far as I know, he is now divorced.debbiediablo wrote: … Funny thing is serial killers get married in prison, often while on death row. Some of them are married or in a serious relationship when they commit a string of sadistically brutal murders (think Ted Bundy, BTK and Tommy Lynn Sells) and their partners are often dismayed...or sometimes suspect something but deliberately avoid facing the facts. …
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- twinsrwe
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
You’re kidding! I know in November of 2013, his girlfriend announced that they were planning on getting married. But Manson says, "That's a bunch of garbage. You know that, man. That's trash. We're just playing that for public consumption."irina wrote:Charles Manson just got married too. …
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1526791
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Truth is totally stranger than fiction. The State of Arizona executed Robert Moorman for the 1984 killing and dismembering of his adoptive mother while on 72-hour release for a family or conjugal visit. He was serving time for kidnapping and sexually molesting a young girl. Unfortunately the family visit turned into a conjugal visit with Moorman claiming his 72 year old mother had sexually molested him in the hotel room. There was no evidence to support his claims; he appeared to have smothered her with a pillow while she slept. Moorman was a "troubled" child when adopted and "accidentally" shot her at age thirteen. After Mrs. Moorman's murder the State of Arizona stopped releasing violent prisoners for three days of R&R at the Blue Mist Motel across the street.
DebbieDiablo
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- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
There was a sprinkling of friends and a couple of cousins mentioned in Lizzie's will, to whom she left items of jewellery and furniture, art, books etc. People who are quite notorious for famous crimes always have some supporters and friends. I can believe that Lizzie had them.
Alice Russell wasn't one of them (and did not see Lizzie after the trial) but many years later she gave an interview (in her old age) in which she cheerfully admitted that, though she believed Lizzie had killed Andrew and Abby, she didn't blame her as Andrew had never given 'the girls' any money to speak of and had ruled their lives. (Her interview was posted on the forum.)
I also hate to be a cynic, but as Lizzie was a very wealthy old woman late in her life, a few of her relatives (and I'm not saying all by any means) may have had an eye on the disposal of her estate, as well as genuine friendship.
Lizzie's motive may have included resentments about Abby as well as a sense of entitlement for all the hardships and disadvantages she believed she had suffered. I wrote a post on another thread, 'The conversation between Lizzie and Alice', the other day about a friend of my cousin who had resentments against her dead father that I believe were similar to Lizzie's.
Alice Russell wasn't one of them (and did not see Lizzie after the trial) but many years later she gave an interview (in her old age) in which she cheerfully admitted that, though she believed Lizzie had killed Andrew and Abby, she didn't blame her as Andrew had never given 'the girls' any money to speak of and had ruled their lives. (Her interview was posted on the forum.)
I also hate to be a cynic, but as Lizzie was a very wealthy old woman late in her life, a few of her relatives (and I'm not saying all by any means) may have had an eye on the disposal of her estate, as well as genuine friendship.
Lizzie's motive may have included resentments about Abby as well as a sense of entitlement for all the hardships and disadvantages she believed she had suffered. I wrote a post on another thread, 'The conversation between Lizzie and Alice', the other day about a friend of my cousin who had resentments against her dead father that I believe were similar to Lizzie's.
- irina
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I think Manson actually got married this year. At least the news said he did. There was no more than a mention and I didn't look for more information.
I read Alice Russell's interview. Not sure what to make of it. I don't think I like her very much anyway and I didn't like the flippant tone of the article.
I did read what you wrote, Curryong. It was excellent! I won't forget it either as my name is Anna.
I read Alice Russell's interview. Not sure what to make of it. I don't think I like her very much anyway and I didn't like the flippant tone of the article.
I did read what you wrote, Curryong. It was excellent! I won't forget it either as my name is Anna.

Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Why don't you think you like Alice Russell, Irina?
- irina
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I think she has a self righteous attitude and she is disloyal.
If I was in her position I would have asked Lizzie more questions about the dress being burned and certainly tried to see it up close so I had some idea of what was happening. For example if there were no blood appearing stains on it Alice could in good conscience keep her mouth shut. I am a very loyal person and I certainly wouldn't take damaging tales from inside a friend's home and give that information to authorities. Especially if I didn't know absolutely what I had seen. The only exception I would make to this would be if I had a friend who was a danger to others in the future, and it would need to be a big danger like serial killing or sexual predation.
Then that late in life interview shows more disloyalty by suggesting once again that the murders were due to banal financial issues. If she had such an overgrown conscience about doing right she should have kept her mouth shut late in life too. Or she could have written an historic account, to the best of her knowledge presenting what she knew, how she knew it and how she interpreted it, instead of a quick interview which comes off as salacious.
Witnessing something circumstantial is not the same as witnessing the crime. I don't believe circumstantial evidence should have much weight. In Judaic Law a witness must see the actual crime committed, not just the circumstances around the crime. That is an extreme in another direction but it certainly gives some food for thought.
If I was in her position I would have asked Lizzie more questions about the dress being burned and certainly tried to see it up close so I had some idea of what was happening. For example if there were no blood appearing stains on it Alice could in good conscience keep her mouth shut. I am a very loyal person and I certainly wouldn't take damaging tales from inside a friend's home and give that information to authorities. Especially if I didn't know absolutely what I had seen. The only exception I would make to this would be if I had a friend who was a danger to others in the future, and it would need to be a big danger like serial killing or sexual predation.
Then that late in life interview shows more disloyalty by suggesting once again that the murders were due to banal financial issues. If she had such an overgrown conscience about doing right she should have kept her mouth shut late in life too. Or she could have written an historic account, to the best of her knowledge presenting what she knew, how she knew it and how she interpreted it, instead of a quick interview which comes off as salacious.
Witnessing something circumstantial is not the same as witnessing the crime. I don't believe circumstantial evidence should have much weight. In Judaic Law a witness must see the actual crime committed, not just the circumstances around the crime. That is an extreme in another direction but it certainly gives some food for thought.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Alice did the right thing. She testified to what she saw...the burning of a dress. Not the burning of a dress with bloodstains but the burning of a dress with supposed paint stains. Like Curryong, I think Lizzie wore that dress on the morning of the murders. She covered herself somehow to pass muster of those who were with her directly afterward. If anyone commented, she had plenty of witnesses that the dress had a priori paint stains...until...it was to be forensically examined for the presence of blood. At that point Lizzie herself might've been in doubt about whether the stains were entirely paint or some blood was mixed in. So she burned it as the lesser of two dangers. Handing over the wrong dress is far less incriminating than handing over one with blood mixed in with the paint. I don't see Alice as being disloyal to a friend; a friend with any common sense would never have placed Alice in that position to begin with regardless of whether the dress was bloodstained or not.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
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*´¨)
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- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
The vast majority of murderers don't kill others in front of eye-witnesses. Adopting Judaic Law would mean a lot of murderers going free.
I believe in being a loyal friend (and I am one) but not in a case where murder is involved. If a relative, even a child of mine, came to me and confessed that they had got involved in murder and asked me for help in covering it up or providing an alibi, I'm afraid I would refuse. Even though my heart would be breaking I would persuade them to go to the police station and tell what they knew, and I would go with them. (My offspring, thank God, all adults, have never been involved in anything illegal.)
I believe in being a loyal friend (and I am one) but not in a case where murder is involved. If a relative, even a child of mine, came to me and confessed that they had got involved in murder and asked me for help in covering it up or providing an alibi, I'm afraid I would refuse. Even though my heart would be breaking I would persuade them to go to the police station and tell what they knew, and I would go with them. (My offspring, thank God, all adults, have never been involved in anything illegal.)
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Love the person without condition; hate the crime they committed. That's easier said than done but something for which to strive. It's even applicable for miscreant children at a very young age who aren't criminals but just behaving badly.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- twinsrwe
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Hmmmm, I did a Google and Bing search, but neither one had anything regarding Manson actually getting married. However, I did stumble across the following videos:irina wrote:I think Manson actually got married this year. At least the news said he did. There was no more than a mention and I didn't look for more information. ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StxSOvxoVD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTFThnkvvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xViFunm2-cI
So, Charlie has nabbed another young girl, whom he respects so much, that he changes her name to ‘Star’ – just like he did to ‘the family’ women in the 1960’s!!!
BTW: just what does ‘Star’ have in common with a man who is 54 years older than she is?


Sorry for going off topic here, but I had to comment on this.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Maybe Charlie is in close touch with his inner child who hasn't yet been healed. There's a guy at deviantart.com who writes and creates artwork about his Inner Child of Homicide which makes me think of Manson. This is for the non-squeamish (graphic poetry but no unsettling images...his words are enough)...definite literary talent but what he writes is the fuel of nightmares.
http://john2dope.deviantart.com/art/my- ... de-2749958
You are forewarned.
http://john2dope.deviantart.com/art/my- ... de-2749958
You are forewarned.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
The Wanda Beach Murders of two teenage girls (friends) on a remote beach in New South Wales in the 1960's is one of Australia's most notorious unsolved cases. Cec Johnson was a detective who spent years, even into retirement trying to find the murderer. In the course of his investigations he corresponded with Alan Bassett, who was convicted of a murder in 1975.
Bassett painted an absctract landscape in jail and gave it to Johnson, who became convinced that there were hidden clues in the painting, shapes resembling a buried body, (the girls were buried in sand) blood trails and a broken knife blade. To his dying day Johnson was convinced Bassett was the Wanda Beach killer.
I have seen the painting and with some effort you can see those things. That doesn't mean Johnson was correct, however.
Bassett painted an absctract landscape in jail and gave it to Johnson, who became convinced that there were hidden clues in the painting, shapes resembling a buried body, (the girls were buried in sand) blood trails and a broken knife blade. To his dying day Johnson was convinced Bassett was the Wanda Beach killer.
I have seen the painting and with some effort you can see those things. That doesn't mean Johnson was correct, however.
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Interesting that they have a 52 year-old blood sample with a weak male DNA profile (one of my daughters works in the field of genetics which changes almost by the day) that may be matchable to the suspect(s) sometime in the future.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
What a creepy desolate scene...I couldn't stand to be in the same room with that painting. It gives off sick vibes....looks more like a depiction of Hell than a beach.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Yes, definitely a product of a sick mind,
I have been to Wanda Beach and on a windy day too, as it was when the girls disappeared. It's an extension of a much more popular beach, Cronella, but it's speculated that the girls, who went for a day out with younger brothers and sisters, went there to meet a boy. Its main feature in those days was its featurelessness. There was literally nothing there but some scrub and large sand dunes, under one of which they were buried.
The police apparently linked the killer to another unsolved crime the next year. A middleaged cleaning lady, alone in an empty shopping centre in Sydney, was murdered in the very early morning by a killer who had hidden there and managed to shut off the lighting, leaving the place in darkness. Nice stuff, huh?
I have been to Wanda Beach and on a windy day too, as it was when the girls disappeared. It's an extension of a much more popular beach, Cronella, but it's speculated that the girls, who went for a day out with younger brothers and sisters, went there to meet a boy. Its main feature in those days was its featurelessness. There was literally nothing there but some scrub and large sand dunes, under one of which they were buried.
The police apparently linked the killer to another unsolved crime the next year. A middleaged cleaning lady, alone in an empty shopping centre in Sydney, was murdered in the very early morning by a killer who had hidden there and managed to shut off the lighting, leaving the place in darkness. Nice stuff, huh?
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I didnt know where to put this, but we are so off-topic on some threads including this one, LOL, that I don't suppose it matters!
Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought 'Lizzie Borden Past and Present'. It's like an encyclopedia and extremely interesting. For instance, Southard Miller, a builder and contractor, known to Andrew, had a large contracting business in Fall River. As well as mills, churches etc he built no 92, Second St., later bought by Andrew. He was a very prominent citizen and when he died in 1895 he left behind two children, Franklin, a well-known Fall River artist, and Mrs Phoebe Bowen! His will was witnessed by Andrew in January 1892. (Did that possibly bring wills into Andrew's mind later?)
Southard and his wife Esther, who must have predeceased him, were sharing their son-in-law, Seabury Bowen's duplex home over the road at the time of the murders. I always wondered who the Millers were and now I know!
Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought 'Lizzie Borden Past and Present'. It's like an encyclopedia and extremely interesting. For instance, Southard Miller, a builder and contractor, known to Andrew, had a large contracting business in Fall River. As well as mills, churches etc he built no 92, Second St., later bought by Andrew. He was a very prominent citizen and when he died in 1895 he left behind two children, Franklin, a well-known Fall River artist, and Mrs Phoebe Bowen! His will was witnessed by Andrew in January 1892. (Did that possibly bring wills into Andrew's mind later?)
Southard and his wife Esther, who must have predeceased him, were sharing their son-in-law, Seabury Bowen's duplex home over the road at the time of the murders. I always wondered who the Millers were and now I know!
- debbiediablo
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I'm thinking the Miller's were close friends with Andrew and Abby. If so, this would better explain Dr. Bowen and Lizzie going to church together. Their families were entwined. And it most likely explained his evasiveness and what seems (IMO) like obvious effort to protect her. He knew her and her family well and most likely thought her innocent. Was Lizzie abandoned by the Bowen's following the trial or perhaps they drifted apart when she moved.
DebbieDiablo
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(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
*´¨)
¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·'* Even Paranoids Have Enemies
"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Yes, that would explain a lot. They seem to have drifted apart over the years. Maybe Dr Bowen sort of got the idea that it wouldn't be very good for his practice in Fall River if he was seen to be a keen supporter of the notorious Miss Borden. That's just my guess though, I don't know.
- irina
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
I get the idea that almost nobody from the old days kept up with Lizzie. I don't think Rev. Buck even remained friendly, did he? I think there was just too much social stigma and also possibly many wondered just as we do, if she did it.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- Curryong
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Re: Lizzie & Emma in 1895 & 1899
Somebody observed, and I can't remember who, that after the trial Emma became quite deeply religious, which she hadn't been before, really, while Lizzie became less so. I suppose you can't really blame her as the church congregation/community turned their backs literally and figuratively. Perhaps the Reverend Buck found it all very awkward?
He was still friendly with Emma however, as it's often been stated that it was he Emma consulted in 1905 about the goings-on at Maplecroft, whatever they were, and he advised her to leave. Maybe he gave her advice in 1903 as he died in March of that year, in which case Emma took two years to act on it. Or perhaps she conducted a seance!
He had a number of unmarried daughters who all lived together after his death, and I believe Emma was visiting them when in 1913 she gave a supposed interview to a newspaperman. He came to the home of the Misses Jubb to conduct it. (I don't believe she did.)
He was still friendly with Emma however, as it's often been stated that it was he Emma consulted in 1905 about the goings-on at Maplecroft, whatever they were, and he advised her to leave. Maybe he gave her advice in 1903 as he died in March of that year, in which case Emma took two years to act on it. Or perhaps she conducted a seance!
He had a number of unmarried daughters who all lived together after his death, and I believe Emma was visiting them when in 1913 she gave a supposed interview to a newspaperman. He came to the home of the Misses Jubb to conduct it. (I don't believe she did.)