Arnold Brown's book

jcurrie · Post by **jcurrie** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:52 am

Has anyone on this forum read the above's book? In it he makes out a case that the actual murderer was Andrew Borden's illegitimate son. Apparently several witnesses saw a wild eyed man in the vicinity of the house, one of them being a lady who had to stop in Dr Kelly's yard as she was suffering from morning sickness. Years later, her son-in-law told her a story about being employed as a boy by this William Borden and that he was a very odd man indeed. It sounds as though he wasn't right in the head. Frankly I'm very sceptical about Brown's assertions. The only way he could have entered the house was if he had been admitted by one of the residents, namely, Lizzie. Bridget was out and about washing windows and would have noticed a stranger in the yard. And why would he murder Abby? If he was after his inheritance his quarrel would have ben with Andrew. And how did he manage to escape so quickly? It was certainly rumoured that Andrew had fathered an illegitimate son, but I can't see Lizzie wanting to share her inheritance with anyone other than her sister. Any thoughts?

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:24 am

I've not read the book but I have heard the theory that the murderer was committed by Andrew's illegitimate son. I'm not sure what I think about that theory because I haven't given it much thought. I can't see Lizzie or Emma wanting to share their inheritance but why murder?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:22 pm

Hello, jcurrie!You can find many discussions on this subject by searching among the older threads of the forum. Good reading and tell us then your thoughts.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:28 pm

Franz, a word for the wise.

We used to have a member who was absolutely fixated on Brown's book and theory. Rudely so. He was not well regarded as he tried to introduce the theory/book into nearly every thread-- even those not about it specifically. I would say that most of the serious enthusiasts of this case, pooh-pooh the book and theory. I own it and have read it more than once-- so it's worth having in one's library, IMO. Just be open minded about it and the other theories.

bob_m_ryan · Post by **bob_m_ryan** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:10 pm

I thought the Brown book to arrive at a conclusion a bit too fast and was not convinced with the 'evidence' presented. It felt like a bit too much conjecture. That said, however, unless we get more information from unreleased documents that are known to exist and/or unknown documents, conjecture is all we have (and likely all there will ever be at this point).

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:40 pm

Yes, I read this book when it was first published. I don't put a lot of stock in Arnold Brown's theory because his theory is totally based on William being Andrew's illegitimate son and with no evidence to back up his claim, which leaves the reader to believe his story is nothing but fiction. This is one of the problems I have with his book, it is listed as a non-fiction book, when in reality it should have been listed as fiction. There are just so many loose ends and holes in his theory, it makes ones head spin.

This is what Arnold Brown wrote on page xiv of his book, about Henry Hawthorne's memoirs:

When the materials arrived, my first reading invoked smiles. What I had was a collection of disconnected ramblings with events choreographed backwards, with simple timing wrong, and with major characters totally ignored or, at best, moved from their traditional locations.

Makes one wonder how Brown managed to unravel the story and come up with his theory, doesn't it?

Arnold Brown admitted that he had no proof that William Borden was Andrew’s son. Check it out: http://tinyurl.com/q55hnxt

William S. Borden was actually the son of Charles Lott Church Borden and Phebe Hathaway.

Rebello, page 373 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):

It was alleged by author Arnold Brown that William S. Borden, the illegitimate son of Andrew J. Borden and Phebe Borden (wife if Deacon Charles L. C. Borden), committed the Borden murders in 1892. William Borden’s family was researched through primary and secondary sources. No information was located to substantiate Mr. Brown’s allegation.

"Profile: Charles Lott Church Borden was born in Fall River, November 12, 1811, and was the tenth of twelve children born to Joseph Borden (1763-1843) and Susan Church. Charles Borden was a carpenter and was involved in church work all his life. He was a member of the First Baptist Church in 1846. He later assisted in the formation of Second Baptist Church, serving as a deacon for many years.

Deacon Borden was married twice. His first marriage, at the age of twenty-eight, was to Phebe Hathaway, age twenty-three, on October 16, 1839. She was the daughter of Michael and Hannah (Davis) Hathaway of Freetown, Massachusetts. Phebe was born in Freetown, July 30, 1816. Charles L. and Phebe (Hathaway) Borden were the parents of six children: Charles A. Borden, Amanda M. Borden, Hannah H. Borden, Eliza Ann Borden, Eliza Ann Borden (2nd.), and William S. Borden."

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:37 am

Twins, I am a newbie. But, I have a comment about parentage and Brown's claim about William S. Borden, prompted by the Rebello quote (I do acknowledge Mr. Rebello's indomitable expertise on the Borden case, and your vast knowledge, as well). In Massachusetts the law then (and I believe still, today) was that a husband is legally the father of any children born to his wife during their marriage -- even if the pregnancy wasn't of his doing. Given that, although records cited show that William S. Borden was Charles Lott Church Borden's son, that does not, by itself, mean that someone else (Andrew Borden maybe?) was William S. Borden's biological father -- although I agree it is highly improbable.

I remember that Arnold Brown found no birth certificate on record for William S. Borden, although birth certificates existed for Hannah, both Elizas, and then the children that Charles had with Peace Borden -- meaning he found no birth certificates for Charles, Amanda, and William (pp 301-302 of Brown's book). With all the researchers out there, this may have changed. I need to do some more reading.

This doesn't mean I support Brown's theory, I just think I can see how he could get carried away in thinking he could substantiate William S. Borden as Andrew J. Borden's illegitimate son. I mean, besides whatever other factors led him to do so.

I'll look for the information on the older threads that Franz mentions because I am interested in this person William S. Borden, now, even if he probably has nothing to do with the Borden murders.

violette · Post by **violette** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:45 pm

A few years ago I did some research on William Borden, and found none that jumped out as being the illegitimate son of Andrew. However, I lost most of my research when I moved and my computer completely crashed. I'd be interested in hearing about what you find Gerontologist.

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:33 pm

violette,
Thanks for your response, but I hope I haven't excited your anticipation. I've never done genealogical research -- although I've done some public records research as a sociologist. Just saying, you may be waiting forever for me to find something. It's too bad you lost your research. I can certainly empathize.

Knowing that you didn't find anything promising on the illegitimacy issue helps me in my interest on the Brown theory, but I still find myself drawn to knowing more about this William S. Borden who farmed in New England, married, spent some time in an asylum, and who committed suicide (intended death is one of my areas of research in my own field).

On the other hand, I did briefly wonder if William Borden actually did sell hard cider, could he have been the "stranger" that wanted to lease a store in Andrew Borden's building and argued with him? LIke, say he wanted to sell his cider from a leased space in downtown Fall River, but Andrew wasn't having it because he objected to "demon liquor" in his building. :alcohol:

But, then, I figured, why would a farmer selling cider need a permanent space like a store in which to sell it? He'd be better off traveling around to peddle his wares. On the other hand, cider season was coming up....

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:08 am

gerontologist wrote:Twins, I am a newbie. But, I have a comment about parentage and Brown's claim about William S. Borden, prompted by the Rebello quote (I do acknowledge Mr. Rebello's indomitable expertise on the Borden case, and your vast knowledge, as well). In Massachusetts the law then (and I believe still, today) was that a husband is legally the father of any children born to his wife during their marriage -- even if the pregnancy wasn't of his doing. Given that, although records cited show that William S. Borden was Charles Lott Church Borden's son, that does not, by itself, mean that someone else (Andrew Borden maybe?) was William S. Borden's biological father -- although I agree it is highly improbable.

I remember that Arnold Brown found no birth certificate on record for William S. Borden, although birth certificates existed for Hannah, both Elizas, and then the children that Charles had with Peace Borden -- meaning he found no birth certificates for Charles, Amanda, and William (pp 301-302 of Brown's book). With all the researchers out there, this may have changed. I need to do some more reading.

This doesn't mean I support Brown's theory, I just think I can see how he could get carried away in thinking he could substantiate William S. Borden as Andrew J. Borden's illegitimate son. I mean, besides whatever other factors led him to do so.

I'll look for the information on the older threads that Franz mentions because I am interested in this person William S. Borden, now, even if he probably has nothing to do with the Borden murders.

Hello, Gerontologist, welcome to the forum. Thank you for the compliment!

I agree with you about the Massachusetts law that you posted, however, that does not mean that Andrew J. Borden was the biological father of William S. Borden. BTW, since Arnold Brown did not find a birth certificates for Charles and Amanda, then who was their biological father(s)? Please don’t tell me that Andrew Borden was their biological father, too.

Arnold Brown is the one responsible for making the allegation that William S. Borden was the illegitimate son of Andrew J. Borden, and did not provide any proof whatsoever to substantiate his claim. The memoirs of Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson provided Brown with an alleged photo of a man he believed to be William Borden. Mr. Brown claims that when you hold this photo next to a known photo of Andrew Borden, one must say they are related. Mr. Brown claims he went a step further and had a friend who worked in a fairly advanced photographic laboratory put the two photographs together and you end up with a 65 year old man who looks 30. Arnold Brown believes the two men are identical as far as the major facial features go. It is because of this belief that he claims William is Andrew’s illegitimate son. Here is a video of Arnold Brown’s theory, where he compares the two photos: http://tinyurl.com/q55hnxt

Something to think about: If all six of the children were actually conceived from the union of Phebe and Charles Lott Borden, then it is a dishonor that Arnold Brown brought upon this family’s name, as well as Andrew J. Borden’s name. Arnold Brown’s theory is totally based on William being Andrew's illegitimate son, with absolutely no evidence to back up his claim. It is because there is no proof or evidence of William S. Borden being Andrew J. Borden illegitimate son, that I cannot bring myself to believe in Arnold Brown’s theory, or even entertain the thought. The only reason Arnold Brown brought dishonor to these two Borden families, was to sell his book and pad his pockets.

I have been referred to, by a former member of this forum, as the ‘Devil's Advocate against Brown's theory’, and the ‘Anti-Brown critic’, which, of course, is only his personal opinion. I have nothing against Arnold Brown, except for the fact that he embellished upon Ellan Eagan’s embellishments, and then published his book as being non-fiction! This is one of the problems I have with his book, it is listed as a non-fiction book, when in reality it should have been listed as fiction. There are just so many loose ends and holes in his theory, it makes ones head spin.

There are several threads on the forum here, which contain information on William S. Borden, but there is one particular thread that is packed with information on William Borden, which I feel you will find not only interesting, but highly informative as well. It contains comments regarding Linda Rodrigues’ article on Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson in the November, 2007, issue of The Hatchet, a newspaper article from the Boston Herald, by Rebello, Kat’s basic family tree for Charles Lott Borden and the article that Kat highly recommended in several forum threads, by Jon N. Keller, titled, New Evidence Brings Profile to Light: The Mysterious William S. Borden, which is an article that was published in the Lizzie Borden Quarterly, vol. 2, no. 4/5. Fall/Winter, 1995, on pages 15-17.

Here is the link to the thread titled, Lizzie paid Billy(William) to do the deed: http://tinyurl.com/j4rbuny

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:52 am

Twins writes:
'If all six of the children were actually conceived from the union of Phebe and Charles Lott Borden, then it is a dishonor that Arnold Brown brought upon this family’s name, as well as Andrew J. Borden’s . '

Indeed. Some months ago I worked through the records to find these siblings. Their lives were tragic. At least three ended in institutions for mental infirmity, and one of the sisters likewise committed suicide. Both this and the preceding generation were bedevilled by depressive illness. William was at times institutionalised at Taunton along with an aunt and a sister. His attempts to find work were pitiful - he was hawking fish, a street-pedlar. He and his siblings had a miserable struggle.

No doubt Brown could have accessed these same records, before setting out his theory.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:22 am

WOW, Interested, thank you for posting that information!

I knew William was institutionalized at Taunton, as well as his aunt and sister, but I had no idea his other siblings had such horrendous lives. May I ask what records you found this information in?

I agree, Brown could have accessed those same records, before publishing his theory and causing even more heartbreak for the future members of that unfortunate family, as well as kept Andrew J. Borden's name free of a scandal that is based on nothing but conjecture.

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:23 am

Twins, thank you for your reply. I have read most of the threads on here (not the archives, but back to 2004) that go into the debate about Arnold Brown's book and the theory of William S. Borden as Andrew J. Borden's illegitimate son. I don't subscribe to the theory, but things in Brown's book (all the books, actually) get me thinking at times about the unknowns of the case. I did my dissertation on inheritance law changes over the past 2 centuries so I spent some time perusing state-level law (which governs marriage, paternity, family, divorce, inheritance, and the like). Also, over the two decades that I subscribed to the National Law Journal, which I read for both research and fun (okay, so I'm a nerd), I came across a lot of case law about presumptive paternity, which differs by state, so I thought I'd throw that thought out there. (For example, women in states with paternity laws like those in Massachusetts sometimes have been barred by the courts from suing for child support from biological fathers if the child was born during a marriage to someone else, and husbands have been made to pay child support to ex-wives for children born during their marriage when the husband wasn't the biological father. But, I digress.)

Even if there was a birth certificate for William S. Borden (and his older siblings), because the state law insists that Phebe's husband is the legal father of her children, the birth certificate may not tell us anything anyway -- it (they) would very likely have Charles Borden's name on it (them) even if he was not the biological father. It makes doing genealogical research more tricky than we already know it to be. On the other hand, without other evidence, there no reason to think that any of these people were fathered by Andrew J. Borden. Brown was reckless.

InterestedReader, I'd also like to hear more about the siblings of William S. Borden, if you still have the information. I hope I'm not encouraging us to get too off topic.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:16 am

Hi all. It was done only by hunting them down in the Census records, and Birth Marriages and Deaths. The brothers and sisters seemed very unfortunate. William's sister Eliza Ann had a child out of wedlock but the child died at around 5. William's own marriage soon broke down, his wife Rebecca just left him. If anyone's interested I'll look out what I found, but it was startling how many of them had mental health problems. William wasn't the only one. Brown could equally well have picked one of the others for his murderer.

I haven't read the Brown book. Didn't he claim there's no birth certificate for William? No, all the birth records are there, including those of William and Amanda. But the one record I couldn't find myself, and I really tried, was his mother's death certificate. When the estimable Kat did this research many years ago, she had a death date for Phoebe. 17th May 1859. The father Charles Lott Borden then remarries with no waste of time, Peace Bassett, on the 12th October. But I so could not find the Death for Phoebe Borden née Hathaway. If anyone has it I'd be so interested because unlike Brown my own suspicions focused on her. I wondered if she too were put away in Taunton for 'mental instability'. There was a lot of this going on. As a way of exchanging one spouse for another. Not that Charles Lott Borden married a younger model.... Peace at 40 was more or the less the same age as Phoebe.

I'll go through my Bookmarks and find the others. It's safe to say there was a prevalence of mental instability and it looks to be a genetic predisposition. William couldn't find work, his wife soon abandoned him, and he seems to have taken his own life in despair.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:05 am

You know, there was one slur against Andrew in the contemporary 'press, appearing soon after the murders... he was known to be a 'sportsman in his youth'.... Is this a delicately-done reference to sexual exploits? Here in modern British we'd say 'he put it about a bit' when young.

There was some discussion here years ago as to what this term may mean, and does it mean 'gambler'...?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1754&p=26006&hilit=sportsman#p26006

I'm searching for the source, because it's in my head, 'sportsman', but not the source, and Twins will ask the source...

Rebello has this, taken from
Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13:

'...Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

This may be it. But I think there's another, using the word 'sportsman'.
It seems slightly too salacious to mean just gambling. And I'd be more surprised by Borden gambling than philandering.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:58 pm

gerontologist wrote:Twins, thank you for your reply. I have read most of the threads on here (not the archives, but back to 2004) that go into the debate about Arnold Brown's book and the theory of William S. Borden as Andrew J. Borden's illegitimate son. I don't subscribe to the theory, but things in Brown's book (all the books, actually) get me thinking at times about the unknowns of the case. I did my dissertation on inheritance law changes over the past 2 centuries so I spent some time perusing state-level law (which governs marriage, paternity, family, divorce, inheritance, and the like). Also, over the two decades that I subscribed to the National Law Journal, which I read for both research and fun (okay, so I'm a nerd), I came across a lot of case law about presumptive paternity, which differs by state, so I thought I'd throw that thought out there. (For example, women in states with paternity laws like those in Massachusetts sometimes have been barred by the courts from suing for child support from biological fathers if the child was born during a marriage to someone else, and husbands have been made to pay child support to ex-wives for children born during their marriage when the husband wasn't the biological father. But, I digress.)

Even if there was a birth certificate for William S. Borden (and his older siblings), because the state law insists that Phebe's husband is the legal father of her children, the birth certificate may not tell us anything anyway -- it (they) would very likely have Charles Borden's name on it (them) even if he was not the biological father. It makes doing genealogical research more tricky than we already know it to be. On the other hand, without other evidence, there no reason to think that any of these people were fathered by Andrew J. Borden. Brown was reckless.

InterestedReader, I'd also like to hear more about the siblings of William S. Borden, if you still have the information. I hope I'm not encouraging us to get too off topic.

You’re welcome, Gerontologist. Thank you for letting me know how much you have already read on the forum. I’m impressed! I also want to thank you for sharing your extensive studies of law; fascinating! BTW, I don’t think you are a nerd for spending your time reading things that you enjoy.

Assuming William actually has a birth certificate, it makes sense that Charles Borden's name would be listed as his father; we know that Charles Borden is listed on his death certificate. Genealogical research is so disheartening at times, because they get information so wrong. My father had one first name and two middle names, so I have found it is very difficult to trace the family line because the genealogy web sites will use his two middle names, and his first name is nowhere to be found! It’s very frustrating.

I have not been able to access the archives for quite awhile. I’ve contacted Stefani a couple of time regarding that issue, but she has not returned a reply to me, which really surprises me since she is usually very quick in replying back. Here is the link to the Archives: http://tinyurl.com/jlsj8yj

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:27 am

Some snapshots.

The family in Fall River, 1850. William is not yet born, his father Charles is a carpenter:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MD9N-L9D

Here is William's marriage, he is 20, and his bride Rebecca Frances is 17:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWTC-CLF
He's optimistically calling himself a merchant.
And it is his mother's name which is missing from the record, interestingly enough. Phoebe has now disappeared.
His father is of course given as Charles.

...Here is William at 26, living with his in laws, peddling fish for a living:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH67-54L

They live on Liberty Street, Taunton.

Here is William's sister Amanda in 1870. She has married a much older man, Nicholas Taylor. He is 55 and a 'Common Labourer'.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDS2-QNQ

Amanda lives next door to her father, now 58, and his second wife.
Sister Eliza lives there too, and at 20 is working in the cotton mill.

Here is sister Amanda's marriage in 1860:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWRF-8GN
She's 18 and her husband 47. It's his second marriage. Amanda's mother Phoebe is named.
Amanda has a daughter named Phoebe after her own mother. The child dies in her first year:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7JG-W8F

Here is Amanda just 10 years on. It's 1880 and the record says in capital letters
INMATE TAUNTON LUNATIC ASYLUM
She's 38 and has 'Dementia':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH6W-QDL

Here is Amanda's death in the Taunton facility. Contributory factor to her death -
'Manic Depressive Insanity':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N43K-7LR

Here is William's sister Hannah, who dies of dysentery in Fall River aged only 21:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWVF-G4D
She was working at 15. A 'cloth trimmer':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZH4-B47

Here is his brother Charles, a labourer, who dies of liver failure at 37:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW9V-QFZ

Charles had married Rebecca Lawton in 1860:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWRF-64Q
His mother Phoebe is named.
Brother Charles in 1870:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDSL-R5B
Charles' son, William's nephew, would likewise die of alcoholism:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N4HF-X9K

Here is sister Eliza's death recorded the 18th November 1901:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW52-HD8

Eliza dies of 'Circular Insanity' at the Taunton institution, just seven months after her brother's suicide. This is the Eliza who had a little girl out of wedlock, Annie, who lived only
to five.

Here is William's suicide 'by hanging' aged 45 on the 17th April 1901.
His father is given as 'Charles L. Borden':
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... &cc=146315

And William is still a 'pedlar'.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N46Z-TBL

William, Eliza and then Amanda all die in Taunton Hospital, or 'Mental Asylum'.

More coming as I find them on my iPad...

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:48 am

It's grim, this family's lot, as you can begin to see. For all we know, poverty drove them to despair, as much as hereditary imbalance of the mind.
And there's something distasteful about picking one of these unfortunates for quasi-notoriety as an assassin.

Perhaps Brown just saw some article on Ellen Eagan and thought it could be worked up, as lucrative exposé.

Heck, here's a stillborn 'Child Borden' with just as much a chance of being Andrew's illegitimate mistake:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7LS-KHW

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:44 pm

InterestedReader wrote:Hi all. It was done only by hunting them down in the Census records, and Birth Marriages and Deaths. ...

Thank you for letting us know your sources.

InterestedReader wrote:... William wasn't the only one. Brown could equally well have picked one of the others for his murderer. ...

Well, not really; hopefully the following will explain why William S. Borden was ‘picked’ as the center character for Arnold Brown’s book.

According to Linda Rodrigues’ article on Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson, titled, “Family Secrets”, in the November, 2007, issue of The Hatchet. When Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson married Dorothy Hawthorne, who was Ellan Eagan’s granddaughter, his mother-in-law (Mary Ellan Hawthorne) told him about her mother (Ellan Eagan). It was Ellan Eagan who pointed her finger at William S. Borden as the man whom she claimed she saw coming out of the Borden yard the day Andrew and Abby were murdered. Pete Peterson claims that Henry Hawthorne’s mother, Bridget Hawthorne, was a friend of William Borden’s mother, Phebe Hathaway, and she knew Phebe’s boyfriend. (Pete Peterson did not reveal the boyfriend’s name.) So, the claim that William Borden was an illegitimate child, had to have come from Bridget Hawthorne. The claim that William S. Borden was Andrew J. Borden’s illegitimate son was a conjecture which came from Arnold Brown.

Please note: I’m sorry that I am not able to provide a link to Linda Rodrigues’ article, because access to The Hatchet can only be done if you purchase it. Here is the link to The Hatchet Download Store: http://tinyurl.com/hlbc4a8 The issue containing Linda Rodrigues’ article is on sale; it is the one with a photo of Andrew in his youth.

InterestedReader wrote:... I haven't read the Brown book. Didn't he claim there's no birth certificate for William? No, all the birth records are there, including those of William and Amanda. ...

You are correct, Brown did claim that there is no birth record for William Borden.

On pages 296-297 of Brown’s book (Paperback Edition.):

There are no birth records for William S. or Charles, and there is no explanation for why there are two Elizas.

The available information from the Fall River City Clerk’s office is not as complete, nor does it fit together as neatly as we might hope. “Male” Borden is more likely to be Charles than William because William’s death certificate gave his age in 1901 as forty-five, which would put his birth in 1856.

It appears that Deacon Borden and Phebe and/or Peace recorded the birth of their children, all except William. Two explanations of why there is no record of William’s birth are most possible. First, there is an archaic law in Massachusetts that even today directs birth records of illegitimate persons to be “impounded” and not to be available as public records. In searching for information about Bill Borden’s birth, I was denied access to his birth records by this very law. Information about Bill Borden’s birth found on his death certificate would have been available to the Fall River City Clerk’s office, which issued the certificate, without being a matter of public record then or today. If Bill’s birth was illegitimate. The other possibility is that someone may simply have removed any record of his birth, not that difficult an act for the magicians who made Andrew Borden’s will disappear. This is not as far-fetched as it might seem, for it appears that someone removed other records related to William S. Borden.

Interested, correct me if I am wrong, but am I understanding correctly, that you found a birth record for William? Are you talking about an actual birth certificate or a census record? If you are referring to an actual birth certificate, then where did you find it? Would you mind posting a link to this record? I reason I am asking is that Rebello did not uncover a birth record of William at the City Clerk’s Office in Fall River or Taunton.

Rebello, page 374:

The last son, William S. Borden, was born in Fall River, April 20, 1854 (see marriage record, Weld Genealogy, p. 253 and Federal Census, 1900). ...

Rebello, page 374n:

No birth record for William S. Borden, born April 20, 1854, was found at the City Clerk’s Office in Fall River or Taunton, Massachusetts. ...

I found this an interesting titbit of information. Rebello, page 376:

Children of Charles L. Borden from his first and second marriage are listed in History of the Church Family (1877, p. 52) except William S. Borden. He is, however, listed as the son of Charles and Phebe (Hathaway) Borden, born April 20, 1854, in Hattie (Borden) Weld’s Historical and Genealogical Record of the Borden Family (1899, p 253)

I hope someday you will have the opportunity to read Arnold Brown’s book. Keep in mind that his book is published as non-fiction. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on his book.

InterestedReader wrote:... But the one record I couldn't find myself, and I really tried, was his mother's death certificate. When the estimable Kat did this research many years ago, she had a death date for Phoebe. 17th May 1859. The father Charles Lott Borden then remarries with no waste of time, Peace Bassett, on the 12th October. But I so could not find the Death for Phoebe Borden née Hathaway. If anyone has it I'd be so interested because unlike Brown my own suspicions focused on her. I wondered if she too were put away in Taunton for 'mental instability'. There was a lot of this going on. As a way of exchanging one spouse for another. Not that Charles Lott Borden married a younger model.... Peace at 40 was more or the less the same age as Phoebe. ...

Rebello, page 373:

Deacon Borden was married twice. His first marriage, at the age of twenty-eight, was to Phebe Hathaway, age twenty-three, on October 16, 1839. She was the daughter of Michael and Hannah (Davis) Hathaway of Freetown, Massachusetts. Phebe was born in Freetown, July 30, 1816.

Rebello, page 374:

Phebe (Hathaway) Borden, the first wife of Charles L. C. Borden, died in Fall River, May 17, 1859, at the age of 42 years 7 months 17 days. She was buried at Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River.

“DIED. In this city,- May 17, Mrs. Phebe, wife of Charles Borden, in her 43rd year. Mrs. Borden was a most valuable and exemplary member of the Second Baptist Church in this city, and was universally beloved for her humble, earnest, fervent piety. Her funeral will take place this afternoon, at her residence on Ninth Street at 1 o’clock, and at the Baptist Temple, at 2 o’clock. A sermon will be preached by the pastor, Rev. C. A. Snow”. (The Fall River News, May 19, 1859:3)

I didn't find anything regarding Phebe being put away in Taunton, nor did I find anything about her being mentally unstable.

BTW: One thing I noticed is that you and FamilySearch spelled William’s mother’s first name as, Phoebe, and Kat, as well as Rebello, spelled her first name as Phebe. I wonder if you tried a search using the name Phebe Borden née Hathaway, if you would get the results you are seeking. Just a suggestion.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:50 pm

InterestedReader wrote:You know, there was one slur against Andrew in the contemporary 'press, appearing soon after the murders... he was known to be a 'sportsman in his youth'.... Is this a delicately-done reference to sexual exploits? Here in modern British we'd say 'he put it about a bit' when young.

There was some discussion here years ago as to what this term may mean, and does it mean 'gambler'...?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1754&p=26006&hilit=sportsman#p26006

I'm searching for the source, because it's in my head, 'sportsman', but not the source, and Twins will ask the source...

Rebello has this, taken from
Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13:

'...Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

This may be it. But I think there's another, using the word 'sportsman'.
It seems slightly too salacious to mean just gambling. And I'd be more surprised by Borden gambling than philandering.

Hmmm, the only one that I have heard of is the one you quoted from Rebello. Out of curiosity, why would you be more surprised by Andrew gambling than philandering? Is it because the article was written about the alleged inappropriate relationship between Lizzie and John Morse, and that slur about Andrew was thrown in? The article didn’t state that Morse was a 'sporting man', just Andrew. Therefore, I am inclined to think that Andrew was a gambling man when he was younger.

I will post the entire article so that other members can see what we are referring to.

Rebello, page 134:

Julius Chambers, "Who Killed the Bordens?" Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13.
__,"Who Killed the Bordens?" A Cavalcade of Collier's, Kenneth McArdle, ed., New York: A.S. Barnes, Inc., 1959, 1-9.

“Mr. Chambers was a staff writer for the weekly magazine Once a Week. He was in Fall River shortly after the Borden murders and attended the preliminary hearing. The article summarized the events of the Borden murders up until the conclusion of the preliminary hearing. A reenactment of how easy it was to enter and leave the Borden property undetected was conducted and reported by Mr. Chambers. He discovered that he had very little difficulty entering and leaving without being noticed. He provided readers with vivid descriptions of Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew J. Jennings, and Hosea M. Knowlton. He implied an incestuous relationship was possible between Lizzie and John V. Morse when he wrote:

"It would be a matter of the greatest importance to know all about this poor girl's private life - I say it without any morbid feeling of curiosity, but purely in the interest of justice and of American womanhood. The police have intimated undue familiarity between Lizzie and her uncle, but remembering the character of the girl and her strong religious instincts, I am loath to even consider the subject. As to old man Morse, I confess frankly that I would hate to meet him in a dark alley. He certainly has a very cruel and hardened face, and I think it would be very proper to make serious inquiry regarding his past history in that part of the far West from which he comes. I say this without any prejudice to Mr. Morse, because his alibi is apparently complete. Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a 'sporting man' when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation."

The Fall River Herald interviewed a member of the Borden family (unidentified) who also implied an incestuous relationship between Lizzie and her uncle, John V. Morse.

BTW: The reason I ask for sources is because when I joined the forum, Kat always asked for sources, which backs up what you are posting. If we didn’t list our sources then this forum would be no better than any other Lizzie Borden forum. Posting our sources is one of the simple things we can do, which makes this forum unique to all others.

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:59 pm

Twins, thank you for the archive link. I thought maybe my browser was defying me when I could never get links to the archives referenced in various posts to work.

InterestedReader, I appreciate your taking the time to provide links to all the material you researched. This helps a lot. The family does seem to have a lot of misfortunes.

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:17 pm

When I was reading Brown's book and he named William S. Borden as an illegitimate son of Andrew J. Borden, I immediately wondered why the so-called illegitimate son would have grown up in a family named Borden. It seemed more logical to me that if Andrew had an illegitimate son that went by the last name of Borden, then it would be because the son had taken (or had been given) his biological father's (Andrew's) name; thus, there would be no reason for him to be living in a Borden family -- unless maybe said family had a relationship (kin or friend) to Andrew and had kindly "adopted" Andrew's illegitimate son. Given that we haven't found a birth certificate for William S. Borden, his having been adopted seems a viable possibility (although not necessarily likely).

But, as Twins reminded me:

According to Linda Rodrigues’ article on Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson, titled, “Family Secrets”, in the November, 2007, issue of The Hatchet. When Lewis ‘Pete’ Peterson married Dorothy Hawthorne, who was Ellan Eagan’s granddaughter, his mother-in-law (Mary Ellan Hawthorne) told him about her mother (Ellan Eagan). It was Ellan Eagan who pointed her finger at William S. Borden as the man whom she claimed she saw coming out of the Borden yard the day Andrew and Abby were murdered. Pete Peterson claims that Henry Hawthorne’s mother, Bridget Hawthorne, was a friend of William Borden’s mother, Phebe Hathaway, and she knew Phebe’s boyfriend. (Pete Peterson did not reveal the boyfriend’s name.) So, the claim that William Borden was an illegitimate child, had to have come from Bridget Hawthorne. The claim that William S. Borden was Andrew J. Borden’s illegitimate son was a conjecture which came from Arnold Brown.

So, by this logic, Brown claimed that Phebe was the mother of Andrew's illegitimate son, and supposedly that was the reason that William lived with Phebe and Charles Borden. It seems odd that Andrew Borden is supposed to have had an affair with a woman who just happened to be married to a Borden. You would think that Brown could have backed up his assertion by finding something that linked Charles Borden and Andrew Borden beyond a distant common heritage . Iif Brown had shown us that there was evidence of Andrew and Charles knowing each other in the 1850s and running in the same social circles (or, at least having their paths cross in a less-than-superficial way), then I suppose it would be easier for me to accept that Andrew may have had an affair with Charles' wife Phoebe. Maybe I'm missing something.

gerontologist · Post by **gerontologist** » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:42 pm

I tried to do some research on the meaning of "a sporting man" and mostly I found that it related to gambling, but I also found some indications that it did also allude to a sexually promiscuous male or "playboy."

"A word often connected to flashy men of the early Victorian period was 'sporting male.' This did not indicate a man who liked to go hunting or fishing or to play various sports. It meant a man, usually unmarried, who was 'preoccupied with the pursuit of pleasure and especially games of chance.' The 'sporting life' was one long round of evenings and nights spent in saloons, gambling halls, bordellos…"
The above retrieved 7-27-16 from this blog: "The aim of the Meet MythAmerica blog is 'dispelling mythperceptions about American history.' Are You Prepared for…the Unthinkable?" Part 19: Flashy Victorians
https://prophecypanicbutton.wordpress.c ... ictorians/

I know we aren't talking about the early Victorian period, but the meaning may still hold in the later 1800s. I also found the following quote in a PhD dissertation.
"...a sporting man or playboy with a slightly less than savory reputation...."
quote from (I'm using American Sociological Association --ASA-- style, please forgive me): French, Kara Maurine. 2013. "The Politics of Sexual Restraint: Debates Over Chastity in America, 1780-1860." A dissertation submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy (History and Women’s Studies) in the University of Michigan 2013 Retrieved 7-27-16 from https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... sequence=1 Source cited: Cohen, Patricia Cline, Timothy Gilfoyle, and Helen Lefokowitz Horowitz. 2008. The Flash Press: Sporting Male Weeklies in 1840s New York. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:23 am

Geronotologist - If you've not found them yet, you can read some of these 'Ellan Eagan' articles here:
https://phayemuss.wordpress.com/2011/06 ... -s-borden/
But the original articles are fairly easy to find online.
I'm afraid it seemed a farrago of nonsense to me, when I read them, but I assumed it's this material Brown seized upon and worked up.
Why should William be 'known as Bill the Horse Killer' when he appears in records as a street-hawker of fish?
Note however that mention of a Liberty Street address at Taunton - according to records that is indeed where Phoebe and Charles were living when William was a child and where William lived with his in-laws the Gammonds (See my links above.)

Twins - I've searched for Phebe and Phoebe even though a Deaths search on either spelling will bring up the other... but never found her death record.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:55 am

Brown wrote...

'It appears that Deacon Borden and Phebe and/or Peace recorded the birth of their children, all except William. Two explanations of why there is no record of William’s birth are most possible. First, there is an archaic law in Massachusetts that even today directs birth records of illegitimate persons to be “impounded” and not to be available as public records. In searching for information about Bill Borden’s birth, I was denied access to his birth records by this very law...'

Now this is of interest to me.
I am no genealogist. It was as a complete novice, I started to bash away at the Massachusetts vital records of the nineteenth century. But there is a lot of evidence to disprove the above assertion. I was struck by how carefully the illegitimate children were recorded. You might typically see the full names of the mother, and either the surname or Christian name of the father. When it comes to illegitimate Bordens there were so many you're spoilt for choice.

Sometimes in Massachusetts Births of the mid-nineteenth century I see 'Not Married' alongside the parents' names - and that's a good deal more frank than British records of the period.

The life of William S Borden was completely at odds with Brown's account. William wasn't my focus of interest. But there's so much evidence as to the habit of binning women in Taunton it remains a valid question in the case of Phoebe Hathaway Borden. I gather that details of her burial prove as elusive as any official record of her death.

Brown's research doesn't appear to be very good, however. He asks why Charles and Phoebe should have 'two Elizas'. They didn't, not simultaneously! One died in infancy.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:11 am

gerontologist wrote:Twins, thank you for the archive link. I thought maybe my browser was defying me when I could never get links to the archives referenced in various posts to work. ....

You're welcome. I have also had trouble entering into a long URL links on the forum. Many times those links break and that is probably why you have not been able to access the link. If you notice, the links I post are tiny URL’s which do not break. The only time I use a long URL is if I am posting a PFD file. The TinyURL web site does not convert PFD files.

How to make a tiny URL:

1. Highlight and then copy the URL you wish to make tiny.
2. Go into the TinyURL web site: http://tinyurl.com/
3. Paste the long URL in the space marked, ‘Enter a long URL to make tiny’.
4. Click on the icon marked ‘Make TinyURL’
5. Wait for the program to make the TinyURL. Once completed , you can either choose to ‘Open in a new window’ or ‘Copy to clipboard’. I always choose the ‘Copy to clipboard’ option.
6. Paste the TinyURL in the body of your post to be submitted here at the forum.

NOTE: On the far left side of the link I provided, is the option to ‘Make Toolbar Button’. This option pins the TinyURL web site to your toolbar. I have the TinyURL web site pinned on my browser toolbar; it is so handy when I find a web site that I want to place the link to within a post I am preparing to submit here on the forum, or place it within an e-mail message.

BTW, the link I provided to the archives works, but I have not been able to access any of the categories. I have notified Stefani and she is trying to fix the problem, but it may take while.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:18 am

gerontologist wrote:... So, by this logic, Brown claimed that Phebe was the mother of Andrew's illegitimate son, and supposedly that was the reason that William lived with Phebe and Charles Borden. It seems odd that Andrew Borden is supposed to have had an affair with a woman who just happened to be married to a Borden. You would think that Brown could have backed up his assertion by finding something that linked Charles Borden and Andrew Borden beyond a distant common heritage . Iif Brown had shown us that there was evidence of Andrew and Charles knowing each other in the 1850s and running in the same social circles (or, at least having their paths cross in a less-than-superficial way), then I suppose it would be easier for me to accept that Andrew may have had an affair with Charles' wife Phoebe. Maybe I'm missing something.

I totally agree. Finding a connection between these two families would have made Brown's theory a lot more believable.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:27 am

InterestedReader wrote:Geronotologist - If you've not found them yet, you can read some of these 'Ellan Eagan' articles here:
https://phayemuss.wordpress.com/2011/06 ... -s-borden/
But the original articles are fairly easy to find online.
I'm afraid it seemed a farrago of nonsense to me, when I read them, but I assumed it's this material Brown seized upon and worked up.
Why should William be 'known as Bill the Horse Killer' when he appears in records as a street-hawker of fish?
Note however that mention of a Liberty Street address at Taunton - according to records that is indeed where Phoebe and Charles were living when William was a child and where William lived with his in-laws the Gammons (See my links above.) ...

Just so everyone knows, the administrator of that web site is not welcome on this forum. Be very cautious about any personal information you give her, especially your e-mail address.

InterestedReader wrote:Twins - I've searched for Phebe and Phoebe even though a Deaths search on either spelling will bring up the other... but never found her death record.

That is so strange. Thanks for letting me know you have tried both spellings.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:30 am

InterestedReader wrote:Brown wrote...

'It appears that Deacon Borden and Phebe and/or Peace recorded the birth of their children, all except William. Two explanations of why there is no record of William’s birth are most possible. First, there is an archaic law in Massachusetts that even today directs birth records of illegitimate persons to be “impounded” and not to be available as public records. In searching for information about Bill Borden’s birth, I was denied access to his birth records by this very law...'

Now this is of interest to me.
I am no genealogist. It was as a complete novice, I started to bash away at the Massachusetts vital records of the nineteenth century. But there is a lot of evidence to disprove the above assertion. I was struck by how carefully the illegitimate children were recorded. You might typically see the full names of the mother, and either the surname or Christian name of the father. When it comes to illegitimate Bordens there were so many you're spoilt for choice.

The life of William S Borden was completely at odds with Brown's account. William wasn't my focus of interest. But there's so much evidence as to the habit of binning women in Taunton it remains a valid question in the case of Phoebe Hathaway Borden. I gather that details of her burial prove as elusive as any official record of her death.

Brown's research doesn't appear to be very good, however. He asks why Charles and Phoebe should have 'two Elizas'. They didn't, not simultaneously! One died in infancy.

Len Rebello could not find a birth record on William Borden, either.

Rebello, page 374n:

No birth record for William S. Borden, born April 20, 1854, was found at the City Clerk’s Office in Fall River or Taunton, Massachusetts. ...

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:48 am

Geronotologist, thank you for posting all the information on the meaning of "a sporting man". Very interesting.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:44 am

twinsrwe wrote:
InterestedReader wrote:Geronotologist - If you've not found them yet, you can read some of these 'Ellan Eagan' articles here:
https://phayemuss.wordpress.com/2011/06 ... -s-borden/
But the original articles are fairly easy to find online.
I'm afraid it seemed a farrago of nonsense to me, when I read them, but I assumed it's this material Brown seized upon and worked up.
Why should William be 'known as Bill the Horse Killer' when he appears in records as a street-hawker of fish?
Note however that mention of a Liberty Street address at Taunton - according to records that is indeed where Phoebe and Charles were living when William was a child and where William lived with his in-laws the Gammons (See my links above.) ...
Just so everyone knows, the administrator of that web site is not welcome on this forum. Be very cautious about any personal information you give her, especially your e-mail address.

I assume it's safe just to look at them!
That website has a high enough profile, and we can't be expected to know of all past bickerings. This is a forum, not a monitored playground.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:20 am

Interested: Yes, it's safe to go into that web site. If you want more information regarding the administrator of that web site, then contact Stefani.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:45 am

You're welcome, Twins.
A word of advice. We Brits are allergic to a constant note of adjudication - one you bring to any interchange of ideas. There have been people here this year doing quite fabulous, active research but they are deterred. Often on what is evidently a too-hasty, uncomprehending read of their posts. Why not encourage their efforts? Not everyone is content to copy and paste Rebello.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:34 am

What is interesting to me is that we have been unable to locate a birth certificate for William S. Borden, or a death certificate for Pheobe. But William S. Borden is also not included in some genealogical accounts of their family tree as well.

The History of the Church Family: Notes Collected by the Hon. Oliver Chase, of Fall Rver, R. I., and Arranged by His Nephew, Edward A. French, Esq. To which Has Been Added Many New and Valuable Notes, Collected by Vernon Wade, Esq

James Newell Arnold

Narragansett historical publishing Company, 1887

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:18 am

Joseph, Peace's child, was born in 1861, according to his death record:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FHKC-88K
And 1861 is certainly more respectable than the 1860 given.

But it's not easy to find Joseph's birth certificate, any more than it is half-brother William's.

I'm still trying to refind William's - I had an idea his entry was mis-transcribed, and there really was nothing very sinister about it...

When we look at Charles Lott Borden in the records he's styled as a 'Carpenter' in his lifetime, not a 'Deacon'. I suppose it's possible he might jettison one n'er-do-well son, but he doesn't himself seem quite so fancy in status...

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:34 am

Ah yes, this is one of the ones which interested me.

Here in 1870 we see living with Charles and Peace a William L. Bassett.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDS2-QN9

'Bassett' should make him one of the sons Peace brings from her first husband. But he' s not the right age... according to one family chart.
He is the right age to be the missing William Borden... Odd, isn't it?
Where's the other sixteen-year-old William, who should be in the household?

I did chase this one, and am trying to find the work.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:47 am

Information on death records, I have found, is only as accurate at the person who provides the information unfortunately. It all rests on the informant's knowledge. I have found death records where the first name of the deceased was given incorrectly. I try to give a lot more wiggle room when searching for information used on a death record.

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:41 am

It's worth mentioning that Peace Borden, Charles' second wife, and married initially to Sylvester Bassett, was actually born a Borden herself. She was the daughter of Stephen Borden of Westport, as you can see from her death record:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWQP-FVT

She'd married Sylvester Bassett and here's where it gets a bit tricky. They did indeed have one son called William born in 1845:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FCRS-SJ6

And it's this son turning up on genealogy charts as Peace's surviving son.

But the William living with Charles Lott Borden from 1860 onward is too young to be that child:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDS2-QN9

Peace Bassett's first William must have died and she had another some 10 years later, as the records show. Her second son William was born around 1854 - the same time as the William S. Borden of Arnold Brown fame.

Now looky at the 1860 Census:
Living with Peace and Charles in Fall River are both the Williams,
and both are aged 7:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZH4-B4

Peace's three Bassett children Charles, Edwin and William, have been mis-transcribed to 'Barrett'.

We now have three Williams, one of which presumably died young.

So in 1870 it's William Bassett, 16, living in Fall River with mother Peace and her second husband 'Deacon' Charles.
Charles' own son William S., also 16, has been displaced. Where is William S., in 1870?

Here is William Bassett's marriage in 1875:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH6S-6P7

He and Margaret did in fact go on to have at least one surviving child. Here is Julia, born in 1878, marrying in 1896:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N4HN-WMW

Here again is William S. Borden's marriage in 1874:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWTC-CLF
They marry at Raynham, somewhat North of Taunton.

Incidentally, the correct spelling of his wife Rebecca's family name seems to be 'Gammons'.
Here's his brother-in-law Jesse in 1900:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95P-16B

In 1880 William Bassett is still in Fall River with mother and stepfather, while his step-brother William S. is back in Taunton, on Liberty Street:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MH67-54L

I think William S. is most likely to be found apprenticed out, in the 1870 Census.
Perhaps he's this one:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDSP-WXM
Working as a labourer on a Taunton holding.

And here's William S. in 1900.
He's on Liberty Street, Taunton, in what I think is the same property. His wife goes by her second name Frances:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95T-JX7

He's a 'Peddler', as he is everywhere else. There's no mention of horses or any equine-related trade.
They live alone in what had been his wife's parents' property.
Why does that 'Ellen Eagan' legend have him living and working on a 'Hathaway' farm at Liberty Street?

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:04 am

The 'Ellen Eagan' articles are like trying to follow fifth-hand gossip. But as far as I can make out we need a Mary Ellan Egan who marries a Henry Hawthorne who 'grew up' on a farm owned by 'Phebe Hathaway and her son William Borden', a 'farm on Liberty Street' in Taunton 'where Bill lived in the back of the farm...'

Let's indulge this idea, even though 'Phebe Hathaway' had her funeral in 1859.
I cannot find a Hawthorne or Hathaway on Liberty Street Taunton, either in 1880 or 1900.
William dies the next year, 1901.

According to the story Mary Ellan Eagan marries Henry Hawthorne in 1915.
Mary's the daughter of 'Ellan Sweeney Eagan'.
So far I can't even find 'Henry Hawthorne', let alone this marriage...

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:14 pm

I thought this might be of interest. This is the link to findagrave.com site where someone has provided the information for
Charles Lott Church Borden. There is a photograph included. Also of interest is no mention of William S. Borden in the family history. Information provided for both of his wives and their children as well.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... d=30071813

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:16 pm

I have also found marriage records for more than one Charles Lott Borden.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:17 pm

Double post sorry

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:18 pm

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:20 pm

I also found this marriage record for Henry J. Hawthornewaite to Mary E. Eagen. Mary Eagen's mother is listed as Ellen Hurley.

On page 129 of Rebello he states that Ellen Eagen's maiden name was Hurley, and her husband's name was Owen Eagen.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:23YX-GW7

Name Henry J Hawthornwaite
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 15 Aug 1917
Event Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Gender Male
Father's Name Henry
Mother's Name Bridget Gillespie
Spouse's Name Mary E Eagan
Spouse's Father's Name Owen
Spouse's Mother's Name Ellen Hurley

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:07 am

Thanks KG. I had Hawthornewaite open but didn't realise that could be the right one!

Henry's family aren't coming out on Liberty St though:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M95T-PY2

Young Henry is 11 in 1900 and his father 44. Henry the father is born in England in 1856 and emigrates in 1875.
Which Henry is supposed to be the child traipsing round with 'Bill' Borden on his horse-killing rounds?
On young Henry's marriage it says the family are in Fall River when he was born, and if this is his sister Bessie
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N4DF-M4L
then she too was born in Fall River, around 1888.

The family are also recorded as Hawthornewright
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2NG-294
(which sounds the more likely an English name to an English ear)
then trimming it back to Hawthorne by 1920:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXTP-QSC

Says Henry Hawthorne Senior is a Weaver, in Fall River... in both 1910 and 1920. Henry Hawthorne Junior works in the cotton mill likewise. Their neighbours all work in the mills in various jobs...
Am I just missing something or have I got the wrong family?
Yes they're in Taunton in 1900, but certainly not on Liberty Rd. They have a couple of Bordens in the vicinity and even a William, but not William S.

Henry Senior's from England and presumably spent his childhood here in England, his wife Bridget Gillespie was born in Ireland... But it's the Eagans who are straight out of Fall River's Irish community, with lots of Sullivan marriages and so on. You'd expect this entire story to come from Ellen Eagan and nowhere else.

Why is Ellen Hurley Eagan called Ellen Sweeney Eagan in the article? Did she remarry?

It says Ellen wrote to Bridget in Butte Montana and one time she got no reply. I'm surprised she got any

Didn't realise Charles Lott Borden was using a 'Church' in his name... Saw a few of those Church Bordens and discounted them!

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:34 pm

I do not subscribe to the theory that William S. Borden was either the illegitimate son of Andrew J. Borden or that he was the killer. My interest is purely in the fact checking and a curiousity as to how this whole tale all was pieced together. It's purely a tale told not even second hand, but passed down a few times over. And it appears to be full of holes.

Rebello page 129:

"Ellen T. (Hurley) Eagen was born in Ireland, July 1857. She immigrated to the United States in 1847 at the age of seventeen. She was the daughter of Jeremiah Hurley and Marey Carey. Around 1885, Ellen married Owen Eagen. Mr. Eagen was born in Massachusetts, and the son of John Eagen and Catherine (Hurley) Eagen. He was a laborer, clerk and an owner of a variety store at the corner of Mulberry and Hope Streets in Fall River. The Eagens were the parents of five children. Mr. Eagen died in Fall River at the age of forty- three on October 9, 1901. Mrs. Eagen resided at her home on the corner of Hope and Mulberry Streets until 1909. She moved to 18 Branch Street in 1910 and remained there until her death. Mrs. Ellen T. Eagen died in Fall River at the age of seventy-four on January 21, 1929. Funeral services were held at St. Mary's Cathedral in Fall River. Internment was at St. John's Cemetery in Fall River, Massachusetts. Mrs. Eagen was survived by a daughter Mrs. Henry (Dorothy) Hawthornwaite and a sister, Mrs. Annie Mullrenen of Butte, Montana. "

What jumps out at me here is that "Pete" Petersen claims his mother- in -law's name was Ellen Sweeney Eagen. Also, that Rebello states that Ellen and Owen had five children, but conveniently provides absolutely no information about those children. Not even their names. The child he does mention as surviving Ellen is given as Mrs. Henry (Dorothy) Hawthornewaite. But all information given points to it being Mrs. Henry J. (Mary Ellen) Hawthornwaite. In fact, Rebello cites "Obituary: Hawthorne (Eagen), Mrs. Mary E. (Eagen) Hawthorne," and "Obituary: Henry J. Hawthorne/Husband of Mary E. Eagen," as two of his sources. So, why the discrepancy and omitted information? I have found several discrepancies in Rebello's work in general. Not to impune his research, but maybe be willing to double check his findings.

Page 373 of Rebello.

"Henry J. Hawthorne, Jr. , (Hawthornwaite) was born in Fall River, April 18, 1889. He was the son of Henry J. (1856-1925) and Bridget (Gillespie) Hawthorne (1857- ?) The Hawthorne's were the parents of seven children : Lawrence, born in 1884; Margaret, born in 1885; Elizabeth, born in 1887; Henry, Jr., born in 1889; Mabel, born in 1891; Mary L. born in 1894; and Catherine, born in 1896. Henry Hawthorne, Sr., was in Fall River from 1884 -1897 having emigrated from England in 1875. Henry's father was employed as a weaver and operator in the Fall River mills. Bridget (Gillespie) Hawthorne emigrated from Ireland to the United States in 1864. City directories for Taunton and Fall River, Massachusetts, do not list Henry J. Hawthorne, Sr., for 1898 and 1899. In 1900, the Hawthornes left Fall River and moved to East Taunton, Massachusetts, where Henry J. Hawthorne, Sr., worked as a weaver at Corr Manufacturing Company which was founded in 1896. Henry Hawthorne, Jr., was nine years old when the family moved to East Taunton, assuming the Hawthornes were in East Taunton in 1898, or eleven if they didn't move there until 1900. The family resided at 63 Middleboro Ave. " opposite the East Taunton school" from 1900-1903 located with-in the vicinity of William S. Borden's home at 38 Liberty Street. They remained in East Taunton until 1903. The next year, when Henry was fifteen, the family moved to the bordering town of Raynham, Massachusetts (1904). Young Henry was sixteen when the family moved to Fall River in 1905. Henry Hawthorne, Sr., was employed at the Union Mill as a weaver. He died in Fall River in 1924. His son., Henry J. Hawthorne , Jr., resided in Fall River for most of his life, married and raised a family. He died in Somerset, Massachusetts, in 1978, at the age of eighty - nine. "

Once again, Rebello states that Henry J. Hawthorne (Hawthornwaite) lived in Fall River most of his life, married and raised a family, but provides zero information about Henry's family. It's the omitted information that makes the story harder to fact check.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:02 pm

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:52 pm

That photograph of 'Margaret Sullivan' dates to 1908 or so, much too late to show a Bridget Sullivan coeval....

I still don't understand why they claim William S. lived on a 'Hathaway' farm at Liberty St. It looks be the same one where he'd been living with his wife's parents, the Gammons...

Here's an Ellen Burns Hurley (mis-transcribed to Healey) marrying an Owen Eagen in Fall River in 1884. The groom's father owns a liquor store. Might this be them?

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWYN-CX8

So where does 'Sweeney' fit in?

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:20 pm

InterestedReader wrote:That photograph of 'Margaret Sullivan' dates to 1908 or so, much too late to show a Bridget Sullivan coeval....

I still don't understand why they claim William S. lived on a 'Hathaway' farm at Liberty St. It looks be the same one where he'd been living with his wife's parents, the Gammons...

Here's an Ellen Burns Hurley (mis-transcribed to Healey) marrying an Owen Eagen in Fall River in 1884. The groom's father owns a liquor store. Might this be them?

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWYN-CX8

So where does 'Sweeney' fit in?

1. Is Ellen Eagen's maiden name Sweeney or Hurley?

2. Bridget Sullivan did not work for a rich family in Newport. She worked at a Hotel called the Perry House.

3. Bridget Sullivan did not go from Newport, Rhode Island to Fall River. She went from Newport to South Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

4. The only marriage record I have found that shows a union between an Ellen Hurley and an Owen Eagen around the time frame given of "about 1885" is this one:

Name Owen Eagan
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 12 Jan 1884
Event Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Gender Male
Father's Name John
Mother's Name Catherine
Spouse's Name Ellen Burns Hurley
Spouse's Gender Female
Spouse's Age 21
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1863

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FH98-SJL

InterestedReader · Post by **InterestedReader** » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:26 pm

I 'spose this is one of their children, Catherine:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FZ6W-K8B

On Ellen's marriage it says it's her Second.

Also isn't her father's name John? and not Jeremiah as in Rebello...
KG, can you see her family in the 1880 Census?