Emma mastermind assassin

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:55 am

Here are some tidbits you can chew on.

The Pleasure of Poetry Club, a group which I belong to, will be doing a reading from my play/book, By the Naked Pear Tree in Somerset, MA, Wed. the 28th. You should come.

This week we had a short rehearsal and a visitor.

I will not mention the visitor's name, to protect her privacy. But we will call her Hatty! Hatty is close to 90 years of age and comes from old Fall River stock, as her maiden name was Durfee.

Ms. Hatty Durfee's father-in-law was very close to Emma Borden. Lets call him. Larry. Larry lived down the street from Maplecroft on High Street, 4 houses away, not far from Maplecroft and probably a 2 minute walk.

When Larry went into business and hung out his shingle, Emma Borden became his first customer (client). Larry and Emma became very close, as he was familiar with Borden affairs and handled delicate and confidential business for Emma. Now remember. We are talking about Maplecroft Emma, not Second Street Emma. Though much is said about how dull Emma was and how she had no life, Emma Borden was a lot more significant than history or books make her out to be.

To make a short story long. (do you like that) Hatty, being around 90, is one of those rare connections to the past. Well to do, important name, and educated—not to mention sharp as a tack. The Hatty's and the Larry's were very close to the Gardners from Somerset/Swansea. All part of the Borden inner circle. What she says may and probably does have some trustworthy validation.

What Hatty mentioned at the poetry meeting that day dropped everybody's jaw. Partly because she is highly respected, for what she knows and who she is.

To make a long story short. (did I already say that?)

Hatty said Emma did it. And that is what Larry, her father-in-law told her. That he had knowledge and believed that Emma was the mastermind.

Take it with a grain of pepper.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:43 pm

Hmmm, interesting tidbit of information there, MB. Did Hatty say that Emma was the one who actually swung the hatchet, or did she mastermind a plan for the murders to be done by someone unknown?

I have always felt that Emma knew a lot more about the murders, than what she ever reveled.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:21 pm

very interesting

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:51 pm

No, she never really said anything......but that Emma did it. That's how she worded it.

When we kept insisting that Emma was in Fairhaven, and that there were witnesses that she was there, Hatty just repeated that her father-in-law, who was intimate with Emma's financial matters, insisted that he knew Emma did it.

If in fact true, I find it highly unlikely that the Brownells of Fairhaven would have conspired and lied. Which would mean that Emma orchestrated the killings and hired someone. Hatty insisted that Emma was smarter than everyone gave credit for, shrewd and somewhat dictatorial.

Hatty mentioned that Emma was good friends with Larry's father's wife, who's name was Carrie. Hearing this I did a little research and all the names she mentioned are in Parallel Lives and along with the fact that Emma was close to the "Hatty-Larry, family.

Not trying to play a game here. Just don't want to betray the little old gentlelady's name.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:50 pm

This very intriguing information, MB. I understand and agree, that it would not be right for you to disclose this lady’s name.

If Emma did orchestrate the killings and hired someone to do the dirty work, then Lizzie had to have known and been an accomplice to the killer. Wouldn’t she? Someone would need to be at the house to let the killer in, and get them out without being seen.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:36 am

Someone else, I forget who but not an active member here, stated something similar only that she was distantly related to one of the Borden attorneys and that they also thought Emma did it. Maybe about 15 months ago...give or take six. Anthony or Judy, do you recall who that was? And the particulars?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:49 am

Privy Deb, Privy....

John Watson · Post by **John Watson** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:28 pm

From the little I've read about Emma, I gather that after leaving Lizzie, she lived with and was looked after by others for the remainder of her life. Although Lizzie was younger, she was clearly the strong, independent one, while Emma was a follower who let others do the deciding. I don't recall any indication that Emma could plan breakfast, much less the murder of her parents. I think the biggest decision she ever made, and likely the hardest, was leaving Maplecroft for good. I do believe it's possible, even likely, that at some point Emma realized that Lizzie was the killer, which may be what the informant's source was referring to. But sibling loyalty and perhaps a deluded belief that Lizzie went temporarily mad and murdered on impulse, caused her to bury the thought. She publicly defended Lizzie for the rest of her life.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:19 pm

Interesting, MB! I could believe that Emma masterminded the whole thing. She didn't like Abby and turned Lizzie against her. But I couldn't say anything about particulars without thinking on it a bit.

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:21 pm

@Debbie

Hey Debbie! I hope you are fine. I have a source, who had been active on the forum, but maybe she is no longer as active as she was. I had posted some time ago about this matter. She mentioned to me that her dentist, happens to be the great-grandchild of a person, who was one of the lawyers on the defense team for Lizzie. The story goes this way. The defense team was convinced that Emma did it.

My theory remains that Emma probably played a very crucial part, which is undermined by many, given lack of factual validation. Emma and the defense team were extremely happy that the prosecutors were on a wrong trail, as they would never have enough of evidence to convict Lizzie. Emma's behavior was as suspicious as Lizzie's, people just couldn't think out of the box. I also believe that Lizzie knew of the master plan. Given her social circle, I think the only person she would put her life on line for, would be Emma. And that is what she did. Which is why, at times she thought, that Emma is giving her away.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:16 pm

debbiediablo wrote:Someone else, I forget who but not an active member here, stated something similar only that she was distantly related to one of the Borden attorneys and that they also thought Emma did it. Maybe about 15 months ago...give or take six. Anthony or Judy, do you recall who that was? And the particulars?

Debbie, I have been racking my brain all day, trying to think of who had mentioned this, but nothing came to mind.

Curiousmind2014 wrote:... I have a source, who had been active on the forum, but maybe she is no longer as active as she was. I had posted some time ago about this matter. She mentioned to me that her dentist, happens to be the great-grandchild of a person, who was one of the lawyers on the defense team for Lizzie. The story goes this way. The defense team was convinced that Emma did it.

My theory remains that Emma probably played a very crucial part, which is undermined by many, given lack of factual validation. Emma and the defense team were extremely happy that the prosecutors were on a wrong trail, as they would never have enough of evidence to convict Lizzie. Emma's behavior was as suspicious as Lizzie's, people just couldn't think out of the box. I also believe that Lizzie knew of the master plan. Given her social circle, I think the only person she would put her life on line for, would be Emma. And that is what she did. Which is why, at times she thought, that Emma is giving her away.

Thank you Curious, for clearing this up for us. Would you mind telling us who the source was?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:51 pm

Curiousmind2014 wrote:@Debbie

Hey Debbie! I hope you are fine. I have a source, who had been active on the forum, but maybe she is no longer as active as she was. I had posted some time ago about this matter. She mentioned to me that her dentist, happens to be the great-grandchild of a person, who was one of the lawyers on the defense team for Lizzie. The story goes this way. The defense team was convinced that Emma did it.

My theory remains that Emma probably played a very crucial part, which is undermined by many, given lack of factual validation. Emma and the defense team were extremely happy that the prosecutors were on a wrong trail, as they would never have enough of evidence to convict Lizzie. Emma's behavior was as suspicious as Lizzie's, people just couldn't think out of the box. I also believe that Lizzie knew of the master plan. Given her social circle, I think the only person she would put her life on line for, would be Emma. And that is what she did. Which is why, at times she thought, that Emma is giving her away.

Yes, thank you CuriousMind, this is what I was trying to remember. MB where I come from a privy looks like this...

Privy.jpg

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:00 am

Hey HB! Did your mysterious lady tell you the motive of Emma?

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:52 pm

Debbie,

Same here with the privy! :-)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:07 pm

Hello Franz:

No, she did not. But I hope to see her again this Wednesday at the Somerset Library! I'll try and remember to ask her about Emma. I have to do a talk and give a short performance from my play By the Naked Pear Tree and talking in public is not my forte. So hopefully I will not have my hands full to the point that I will forget to ask her. We will see. But good question. I am curious also to what she may say.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:14 am

Emma would likely have much the same motive as Lizzie IF she was the murderer. So, for a moment, let's say she is guilty of actually committing the crime. How would she go about doing the deed? Would it be possible for her to retire to her room for the day and then sneak out, somehow get to Fall River and kill her parents, and then get back home? What I'm asking is for ways Emma might have 'executed' the mission, not for all the reasons she couldn't. Could the Brownells be bought? Or fooled? How long would it take for Emma to travel to Fall River, kill both Abby and Andrew, and then get back in time for the message confirming their deaths? Would she have been missed had she traveled the night before? How about just killing Abby after which Lizzie decided that Andrew must die, too. Or Lizzie kills Abby and Emma kills Andrew. If Emma hired someone, how and who?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:08 am

debbiediablo wrote:Emma would likely have much the same motive as Lizzie IF she was the murderer. So, for a moment, let's say she is guilty of actually committing the crime. How would she go about doing the deed? Would it be possible for her to retire to her room for the day and then sneak out, somehow get to Fall River and kill her parents, and then get back home? What I'm asking is for ways Emma might have 'executed' the mission, not for all the reasons she couldn't. Could the Brownells be bought? Or fooled? How long would it take for Emma to travel to Fall River, kill both Abby and Andrew, and then get back in time for the message confirming their deaths? Would she have been missed had she traveled the night before? How about just killing Abby after which Lizzie decided that Andrew must die, too. Or Lizzie kills Abby and Emma kills Andrew. If Emma hired someone, how and who?

Yes debblie. I think many have the same questions as you.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:38 am

Even with today's advanced scientific investigative tools-- it is often some obscure fact or person who knew something that broke the case wide open.
\

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:18 pm

I think Emma might have put the idea into Lizzies head. I do think she knew more than she said.

violette · Post by **violette** » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:32 pm

I do believe that Emma was in Fairhaven at the time of the murders (and didn't travel to and fro as some theories have suggested). Maybe she and Lizzie had spoken about their mutual hatred of Abby, or how cheaply their father was forcing them to live. Whether she was the mastermind behind it all, I doubt it.

I would love (to put it lightly) to know why Emma left Maplecroft and Lizzie for good. What created such a massive rift between them that would cause the two to never speak?

I hope that you get to speak with Hatty again Mbhenty!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:19 am

Just a thought: IF so many people of that generation (and this is me surmising - from MB's revelation plus the dentist's grandparent - not an established fact)...IF so many people of that generation thought Emma was responsible for the Borden murders, than maybe that's why she left Fall River. Especially if Lizzie were innocent and somehow came to that conclusion herself after enduring the trial of the century (perhaps hyperbole).

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:03 pm

Interesting thought you have there, Debbie. The only way I can see Emma leaving Maplecroft and never speaking to Lizzie again, is if she actually did mastermind the murders, and Lizzie threatened to expose her.

phineas · Post by **phineas** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:08 pm

So fascinating mbhenty.

Question...since Larry was so close to Emma, why STAY close to her knowing she had hired a killer/somehow made it to the murder scene and back. It seems Emma used his services in some manner? The only case I can see for maintaining relations--aside from financial-- would be if Fall River society was somewhat secretly sympathetic? Despite publicly shunning the sisters...could there have been a more ambivalent private face?

There's an old story in Texas about a sheriff arriving at a murder scene and asking of the victim: Did he NEED killing?

There was certainly a school of thought that Andrew might.

Great morsel to chew on.

One further thought. We know a fair amount about the emotional bonds in the house with one exception.

Lizzie > loves Father > loves Emma, her stand-in Mom > hates Abby
Abby > loves Andrew (apparently) > neutral or negative on sisters based on their rejection of her
Andrew > loves Lizzie and spoils her, > loves Abby
Emma > loves Lizzie, hates Abby

Andrew = Emma....such a big question mark.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:52 pm

Yes Phones:

Not sure, and can not say why a relationship continued between Emma and Larry. One thing I can disclose was that Larry was an attorney. When we asked how Larry knew Emma did it the elderly lady just said he knew. Perhaps he had guessed. Or perhaps he was a know-it-all just like Us. After all, most of us know who killed the Bordens.......do we not?

I ran into Hatty again this week. But after a short conversation about the weather and her health the time and place was just not right to start interrogating her about her little story about how she knew Emma did it.

But Hatty and her husband's father and family were on very friendly terms with Emma. Emma visited them at their home on High Street many times. As a matter of fact, that very house was for sale when Lizzie and Emma were looking for a house on the hill. It was one of the properties they considered buying before they purchased Maplecroft. And funny enough, it is for sale right now.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:38 am

I would've bought the one above...

I'm not sure we know that Emma hated Abby although she most certainly did if she's the murderer. Nor do we know for sure how Abby felt about the sisters. Even a biological parent can love a child who is unable to give or receive love. The same holds for a step-parent only more so because the bonding and attachment from birth forward isn't present and never can be. Abby may have been more saddened about her relationship with Andrew's children because she wanted a loving mother-daughter relationship or she may have hated one or both them with vehemence. I don't think we know. Plus, love is always ambivalent, meaning even the persons we love most have elements about their personalities or behaviors that we heartily dislike or even hate. Except love overshadows the hate... until hate overshadows the love and it ends with a hatchet in the face.

Phineas, that's an excellent point as to why Larry would continue a relationship with Emma if he thought she was a hatchet killer. However, if he were Emma's attorney then he had no choice but to zealously represent her regardless of personal opinion. Or maybe (I tend to agree) there was an undercurrent within the community that Andrew got his just reward. I always think of the neighbor who commented that "some things are worse than crazy" when asked about Borden sanity.

One element of the equation might be that Lizzie appears to be a loner and lived alone for many years. Emma preferred to live with people. Lizzie was at an incredibly vulnerable age when Sarah died; the abandoned child Lizzie would never fully recover. Personality and personality disorders are though to take root before age four, and by age three Lizzie had been witness to not only her mother's death but her mother's suffering and the dysfunction this causes in any family. At nine, Emma was old enough to have a strong attachment and bond with her mother and to have had a maternal role model for her young sister. As an aside, the legal age for consensual sex in 1892 Massachusetts was ten!

A year or so ago Anna and I discussed how societal fears may have influenced both the all male jury and the City of Fall River itself. Victorian women of good birth and from upstanding families were thought incapable of murdering their parents, much less with a hatchet. The very idea flies in the face of Victorian sensibilities about womanhood. To admit that either Lizzie or Emma was the killer allows for the possibility that the daughter of any upstanding Fall River family might some day intermittently iron handkerchiefs while butchering her mother and father before lunch. Which reminds me of the dismay when a school shooting occurs. As a society we find it difficult to accept that children can massacre other children.

phineas · Post by **phineas** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:15 pm

I agree Debbie! We don't have any idea what Abby really felt about the girls...I think your take that Abby may have been saddened must have been true at some point since no one had a bad word to say about her. She has always struck me as a mild person, arousing no strong feelings, or none that have filtered down to us. That makes me reject the dragon stepmother concept although possibly years of ongoing rejection could have changed the situation. Most women entering into a marriage with children must hope that they'll be loved by them. The antipathy Abby's sister felt for Lizzie and Emma makes me wonder what Abby confided about the situation. And whether after initial disappointment her feelings curdled into something else. Since Lizzie's change to calling her Mrs Borden occurred during her adulthood, I've wondered if that meant that Lizzie had more "kindly" feelings toward Abby for many years, possibly until the house transfer. Emma's habit of always calling her Abby, from childhood, seems a little off for Victorian times. The fact that Bridget obviously liked Abby enough to stay on when she requested it speaks to me...servants know what people are REALLY like.

violette · Post by **violette** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:07 pm

I think that Abby must have felt slighted and saddened by the way Lizzie felt about her. Lizzie had known Abby for most of her life (I forget how old Lizzie was when Andrew and Abby married but she was quite young), and just a couple of years prior to the murder she stopped calling Abby mother and started calling her Mrs. Borden. From what I've read Lizzie barely exchanged words with her after she ceased calling her mother.
I think that this shows just how very angry Lizzie was with Abby. She essentially cut her off. She stopped referring to her as mother - cutting her out of her family - instead she was her father's wife. Lizzie didn't have conversations with her, maybe an occasional "hello" or "goodnight" or "yes". They were living in the same house but ignoring one another and Lizzie was angry, and that was a situation just waiting to explode.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:28 am

Apparently both Lizzie and Emma openly displayed their feelings regarding family matters, out in public.

Witness statements, taken August 10, 1892, from the notes of Doherty and Harrington, page 13-14 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
"We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth street. "She said this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden."

On the other hand, Abby was very close-mouthed, even to members of her immediate family.

Witness statements, Doherty and Harrington, page 17 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden’s step mother. Her statement. “Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call on Mrs. Borden as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”

Witness statements, Doherty and Harrington, page 18 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Bestcome A. Case and wife of 199 Second street. Their statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlor she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use.

I think Abby lived her life stuck in a catch-22 situation, and she endured a lot more abuse from her step-daughters than we will ever know. I don't know as though Andrew even knew the full extent of what his wife had endured, at the hands of his own flesh and blood. I can't image living my life in a house filled with the kind of hatred and disrespect that was within the Borden household.

violette · Post by **violette** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:19 pm

twinsrwe wrote:Apparently both Lizzie and Emma openly displayed their feelings regarding family matters, out in public.

Witness statements, taken August 10, 1892, from the notes of Doherty and Harrington, page 13-14 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
"We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth street. "She said this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden."

On the other hand, Abby was very close-mouthed, even to members of her immediate family.

Witness statements, Doherty and Harrington, page 17 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden’s step mother. Her statement. “Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call on Mrs. Borden as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”

Witness statements, Doherty and Harrington, page 18 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):
Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Bestcome A. Case and wife of 199 Second street. Their statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlor she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use.

I think Abby lived her life stuck in a catch-22 situation, and she endured a lot more abuse from her step-daughters than we will ever know. I don't know as though Andrew even knew the full extent of what his wife had endured, at the hands of his own flesh and blood. I can't image living my life in a house filled with the kind of hatred and disrespect that was within the Borden household.

The situation must have been incredibly intense if Mrs. Gray (Abby's step mother) didn't visit, and she even went on to say that she would not want to change places with Abby for all of her money. I think that says quite a lot in regards to what life was like behind the door of 92 2nd Street.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:57 pm

I agree, Violette. I have never understood why Emma and Lizzie did not move into the house on Ferry Street, after their father gave it to them, if living in his house brought on such tension and discord. Granted theses were Victoria times, where the prim and proper thing to do was to have unmarried females stayed in their father's home until a man came along who was willing to marry them. Perhaps 'the girls' felt the Ferry Street house was beneath them. I have often wondered if the reason they did not move out, was because they enjoyed and relished making Abby's life as miserable as possible, in hopes that she would divorce their father. Just a thought.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:58 pm

Change is extremely difficult even when it's for the benefit of everyone involved. Einstein's definition of insanity is said to be doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result. If Albert was correct, the world is filled with insane people!

I'm guessing due to when Lizzie and Emma lived and how they were reared and their place in Fall River society that moving out of the family home was never seriously considered, perhaps beyond the pale of consideration. Abby was past optimal marrying age when she and Andrew wed. It's quite likely this was not a love match but rather a widower looking for someone suitable to rear two daughters and a woman approaching spinsterhood hoping for lifelong security and perhaps for a ready made family.

Speaking from almost 41 years of experience, marriage takes a lot of effort and commitment and patience and understanding and empathy and the ability to be simultaneously tough and vulnerable...and that's when there aren't two resentful stepchildren hanging around doing their best to be divisive. I doubt divorce was the goal for Lizzie and Emma...just get Abby written out of the will and leave her a pauper when Andrew died. Except that plan started to unravel.....

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Wed May 11, 2016 7:29 am

Hi everyone:

Bumping this thread up: I am the person who knew of a "Emma did it" connection--sort of.

I had a route canal several years ago, and while in the chair, I started talking about my Borden-interest. One of the dental assistants told me that her great grandfather was on Lizzie's "dream team" and that his son (her grandfather) told the family that Lizzie's lawyers were convinced Emma did it.

Since then, and also since taking a break from the board, I've had to go back to that dentist many times (I grind my teeth, with expensive consequences.) I always request the "Borden hygienist" as I now call her. I've asked her to elaborate and here is what she has told me:

They had no hard evidence (this is Lizzie's defense team we're talking about..expensive lawyers and former politicians.) One theory was that Emma snuck back into town, dressed as a man. Another was that she hired someone. Again, it was all speculation. Unless Lizzie TOLD one of her attorneys 'my sister is the guilty one.' (in which case, don't they have a duty to report it, being officers of the court?) then then defense team had no more knowledge than anyone else...except of course, for their interviews with Lizzie, and corresponding case notes, all of which have never seen the light of day...

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed May 11, 2016 1:21 pm

Hmmm, I find it interesting that Lizzie's "dream team" were convinced that Emma was the murderer. I wonder how they thought Emma got back to Fairhaven in time to receive the message from Dr. Bowen. Has your "Borden hygienist" ever said? Another question is how Emma could have possibly allowed 'baby Lizzie' to take the murder rap for her? After all, Emma had promised her mother that she would look out for 'baby Lizzie'.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Thu May 12, 2016 7:07 am

Twins: She didn't elaborate any more than that...I've pressed for more details, but she had none. I got the feeling that it was wishful thinking. I have many problems withe Emma as the murderer herself, although I think it is very probably that she knew far more than she revealed.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu May 12, 2016 9:01 am

It is unfortunate that your "Borden hygienist" doesn't have any more details than she has already told you, but that's okay. For us, it is just another mystery to add to the already highly mysterious Borden murders. I also have problems with Emma being the murderer, because it just doesn't add up time wise. I think Emma was an instigator for Lizzie committing the murders. I agree, it is very probable that Emma knew a lot more than she reveled. I believe Emma knew that Lizzie was planning to kill both Andrew and Abby, way before the event actually took place. IMO, Emma's testimony at the trial is very telling; it is obvious that she was still 'looking out for 'baby' Lizzie'.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Fri May 13, 2016 6:17 am

twinsrwe wrote:It is unfortunate that your "Borden hygienist" doesn't have any more details than she has already told you, but that's okay. For us, it is just another mystery to add to the already highly mysterious Borden murders. I also have problems with Emma being the murderer, because it just doesn't add up time wise. I think Emma was an instigator for Lizzie committing the murders. I agree, it is very probable that Emma knew a lot more than she reveled. I believe Emma knew that Lizzie was planning to kill both Andrew and Abby, way before the event actually took place. IMO, Emma's testimony at the trial is very telling; it is obvious that she was still 'looking out for 'baby' Lizzie'.

Hi Twins:

Cannot recall if this has been discussed before (I realize that we do, or at least I do, go over the same ground sometimes...apologies..

) but do you think that Emma was at all worried about leaving for her trip, and knowing that Lizzie would be alone with the Bordens? In your opinion, would Lizzie have done the same thing (assuming she is the killer) if Emma had been in the house, or at least, home in Fall River?

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Fri May 13, 2016 1:23 pm

I agree that Emma was most likely not the murderer. For me it doesn't add up time or opportunity wise. Since Emma was in Fairhaven she would have had to take the train home and back, or rent a means of travel. Which leaves room for witnesses or a record of rental. No one ever came forth. She would also rely on the Brownell's not to say anything about her absence during the crucial time frame. The only way this scenario is possible for me is if Emma had an accomplice who provided the means of travel. And if the Brownell's kept quiet. Emma getting in and out unseen raises the same problems I have with an intruder. Unless Bridget and Lizzie covered for her. Would they all have covered for her?

I have gone back and forth on whether Emma had prior knowledge. Or if she might have figured it out afterward. Going by the available evidence it's really hard to know for sure. But I lean toward Emma believing Lizzie was innocent. The only sticking point for me is the alleged exchange heard by Hannah Reagan about Emma giving Lizzie away.

Emma hiring someone to commit the murders brings up the same problems I find with an intruder also.

If Emma really felt like it was her job to protect Lizzie and mother her, setting her up to become a possible suspect in a double murder doesn't make sense for me.

NancyDrew brought up an interesting question. Would Lizzie have committed the murders if Emma was home? I'm not sure. Could she have trusted Emma to keep her mouth shut? I think this may have been why Lizzie waited until Emma was away. Maybe Lizzie wasn't so sure. She also may have tried to keep Emma from becoming a suspect. Because the one thing that truly surprises me is that Lizzie never tried to implicate anyone else.

I do believe there was way more to Emma Borden than anyone gives her credit for. She seems to have been a rather likeable woman. She spent her whole life living with others who had not one bad word to say about her even after her death.

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Sat May 14, 2016 12:05 am

Great questions in favor of creating a reasonable doubt of Emma personally not committing murders.

Similarly, in favor of Lizzie

1. Why did she call out for Bridget within 20mins of the murder? Why not take an hour, and put as many things in place, at her leisure?
2. Name the first person that comes to your mind, that Lizzie would protect, at her expense?
3. Other than the morphine induced inquest, circumstantial evidence, and Eli Bence testimony, what proof have we got, to convict Lizzie as a murderer?

I definitely believe in factual analysis. But absence of proof, is not a proof of absence. Emma's greatest alibi in the eyes of factual investigators as us, is the fact that we know very little about her. I guess like a statistician, we should at times, defer to make judgements, when we do not have enough of data points.

The only fact we know of, is that two senior citizens died on a very hot August day, in presence of their daughter and maid at home, on the busiest street in Fall River, MA.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Sat May 14, 2016 8:58 pm

If we are to go by the factual evidence, we have no proof that Lizzie was actually under the influence of morphine at the time of her inquest. The doses were not administered by Dr. Bowen or any other doctor. It was given to Lizzie to be taken as needed at bedtime. From all of the witness statements I have read nobody actually saw her take it. So we cannot know with certainty that she did.

This fact is a basis for my personal opinion that Lizzie may have used the morphine as a catch all excuse to dismiss any of her conflicting statements. And how did Bridget's inquest testimony go missing and never be found? Very convenient that the inquest testimonies of the only two people home during the time of murders could not be admitted during the trial.

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Sun May 15, 2016 7:41 am

Nice point KG.

I thought it was an established fact that she was taking heavy dosage of morphine.

But other questions do stay as it is. I am not a criminal by any chance, but if I committed murders, I would take all the time in the world to put my trails in order than to give out a panic call. Unless the murderer had already fled, right after committing the crime.

My stance on this whole case is that we need to stop positioning it as, one mastermind, one executor, and zero accomplice. There were so many things which were weird about the case, which maybe the reason it is so fascinating.

Some of the Things which were off about the case:

1. Love thy suspects: None of the fantastic fours (Lizzie, Emma, Bridget and Morse) ever accuse each other.

2. Perfect Alibi: remembering the badge number of a conductor? Seriously? Maybe things were different 125yrs ago and they had a lot of time to gawk at badges and eating pears under a tree for 30mins.

3. The buck stops after Lizzie: why did the search for murderers stop after Lizzie was acquitted?

I believe Lizzie, Emma, Bridget and Morse, were involved in some capacity. Lizzie was an accomplice, not the person who committed the crime. May be none of these committed the crime, but hired someone to.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun May 15, 2016 7:46 am

Curiousmind2014 wrote:Great questions in favor of creating a reasonable doubt of Emma personally not committing murders.

Similarly, in favor of Lizzie

1. Why did she call out for Bridget within 20mins of the murder? Why not take an hour, and put as many things in place, at her leisure?
2. Name the first person that comes to your mind, that Lizzie would protect, at her expense?
3. Other than the morphine induced inquest, circumstantial evidence, and Eli Bence testimony, what proof have we got, to convict Lizzie as a murderer?

I definitely believe in factual analysis. But absence of proof, is not a proof of absence. Emma's greatest alibi in the eyes of factual investigators as us, is the fact that we know very little about her. I guess like a statistician, we should at times, defer to make judgements, when we do not have enough of data points.

The only fact we know of, is that two senior citizens died on a very hot August day, in presence of their daughter and maid at home, on the busiest street in Fall River, MA.

Good questions...I've often wondered about Lizzie's timing in hollering for Bridget. Some thoughts:

1. (Okay this is not just a thought, but another question)...we all accept as fact that Andrew Borden arrives home at 10:40, and that Lizzie spent several minutes making him comfortable...asking if he wanted an afghan, closing the blinds, etc. She then goes out of the room (upstairs, to the barn to find lead, eat pears, etc.) We have Bridget testifying that he did come home....but how sure was she regarding the time? What if he came home much earlier...even just 10 or 15 minutes? And further, is it possible Lizzie didn't spend ANY time conversing with him, but instead killed him as soon as he lay his head down on the sofa pillow (she could have bunched up his coat under his head right before or after.)

The reason I'm going down this trail of thought is that the timing of Andrew's murder is so tight. Given Lizzie and Bridget's timeline, to make Lizzie the killer, she'd have to accomplish a lot of things in a short space.

Why did she holler for Bridget at 11:05, or close to it? If she were out back, or even in the kitchen, and wanted to go upstairs to her room, she'd have to pass through the sitting room (I don't think she would have gone through the parlor, would she?) and she would have noticed Andrew's bleeding body. She couldn't avoid it. I guess she could have strode through, gone up to her room to lay down, and let someone else (Uncle John?) find the body...but would that have made her seem more or less suspicious?

Sorry...I'm babbling. If Lizzie masterminded this whole thing, I've always wondered if it was in her plan to yell for help so soon after Andrew was dispatched. Or maybe she just panicked...didn't realize how gruesome it would look, or how horrible it would feel.

2. If I had to name another person Lizzie would protect at her own expense, I can only think of Emma. Whatever friendship she might have enjoyed with Bridget fell apart like a cheap suit after her acquittal...to my knowledge, the two women never spoke again.

3. The only person who had Means, Motive & Opportunity was Lizzie. Emma didn't have Opportunity. Bridget didn't have Motive. Lizzie had all 3, and glaringly so. Furthermore, the vicious nature of the attacks ----obliterating the head and face, and the overkill--speaks to this being a crime of personal rage. Again...all arrows point to Lizzie. Thoughts?

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Sun May 15, 2016 8:26 am

These are just my thoughts on the reason Lizzie called Bridget down. Uncle John had been invited back to the eat the noon meal with the family. Bridget was still under the assumption it would be her duty to have that meal ready on the table. These were not the days of microwaves and self heating ovens. Bridget had to get a fire going in the stove, heat any hot water she needed, and spend a lot of time in that kitchen just to reheat something. I think Lizzie called Bridget down before she might have had a chance to come down to begin preparing the meal. Because even though Lizzie said she was in the barn she was really inside. This required "finding" Andrews body herself. Maybe she didn't want to take that chance.

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Sun May 15, 2016 12:17 pm

KGDevil, Lizzie clearly had called Bridget when she found her father "hurt". I don't think she ever mentions calling Bridget down for a meal.

Still the question stands

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Sun May 15, 2016 2:05 pm

Curiousmind2014 wrote:KGDevil, Lizzie clearly had called Bridget when she found her father "hurt". I don't think she ever mentions calling Bridget down for a meal.

Still the question stands

Curiousmind, I wasn't implying Lizzie called Bridget down to cook a meal. That was not the point of my post at all. I know that Lizzie called up saying her father had been hurt.

What I was implying is that Lizzie called Bridget down to be in control of when she came downstairs. It was Bridget's duty to cook the noon meal and she was still under the assumption she needed to have it ready for the family. During times when she still needed to build a fire in the stove, heat hot water, and cook everything from scratch. Even to reheat food would have taken some time.

Lizzie knew Bridget would be coming down to prepare the meal, but could not control when. She could not take her time and clean up at her leisure. If Bridget came down with Lizzie still in the house it blew even the terrible alibi of being out in the barn. If Lizzie acted quickly to clean up before she "discovered the body"and then sounded the alarm she controlled when Bridget came downstairs.

The other option that keeps her from being discovered in the house is for Lizzie to go to the barn and wait for someone else to sound the alarm. With no idea how long that might take.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Mon May 16, 2016 5:47 am

Why couldn't Lizzie have gone up to her room and remained there? She could have claimed that she heard nothing, that the last time she saw her father he was fine,and that she had been dozing off due to her stomach being upset....

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Mon May 16, 2016 8:22 am

NancyDrew wrote:Why couldn't Lizzie have gone up to her room and remained there? She could have claimed that she heard nothing, that the last time she saw her father he was fine,and that she had been dozing off due to her stomach being upset....

I believe Lizzie wanted to keep herself distanced as much as possible from both dead bodies. She is also not in control of the situation waiting upstairs for either Uncle John or Bridget to find Andrew. Bridget may not have found the body right away due to the door between the sitting room and kitchen being closed that morning. She had no real reason to go all the way into the sitting room. Lizzie had no control over what happened next if she waited for Bridget or John to discover the body/bodies. Bridget may have gone screaming out of the house straight to the police.

She had more control of the situation if she orchestrated the outcome by her own actions. She controlled when Abby's body was found, she controlled what Bridget did after Andrew was found, controlled Uncle John's actions by setting her plans in motion before he got there, to an extent she controlled when the police arrived at the scene by not sending for them. And it is interesting that one of the first people she sent Bridget to summon was Alice Russell. The person she had expressed her fears of someone harming the family to was called to be on hand at the scene.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Tue May 17, 2016 7:22 am

Yes, I see your points!

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Sat May 21, 2016 8:58 am

Good points. I just find it difficult to believe that Lizzie wrapped it up in 20mins. It is too little of a time.

By the way, do we know what happened with the package Andrew bought in, and Prince Albert coat?

That adds more to the mystery and more things to be done within 20mins

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Sat May 21, 2016 2:37 pm

[quote="Curiousmind2014"]Good points. I just find it difficult to believe that Lizzie wrapped it up in 20mins. It is too little of a time.

Someone mentioned somewhere (sorry, brain fog)

that we think 5 minutes isn't long enough for one to do much in. So, they set a timer and decided to see what they could do. Apparently, they could do a lot more than what they figured they could in 5 minutes. I've not done the experiment myself but I'd be interested to know if any of y'all do it.

KGDevil · Post by **KGDevil** » Mon May 23, 2016 9:35 am

MysteryReader wrote:
Curiousmind2014 wrote:Good points. I just find it difficult to believe that Lizzie wrapped it up in 20mins. It is too little of a time.

Someone mentioned somewhere (sorry, brain fog) that we think 5 minutes isn't long enough for one to do much in. So, they set a timer and decided to see what they could do. Apparently, they could do a lot more than what they figured they could in 5 minutes. I've not done the experiment myself but I'd be interested to know if any of y'all do it.

That would be an interesting experiment to try. I can't say I have ever tried this experiment for the specific purpose of seeing if these tasks can be accomplished in that amount of time. I would be interested to see how that would pan out. I do believe it is very probable it can be done.

I can say that in the past I was notorious for sleeping in as long as possible before getting up to go to school. I usually gave myself between 15-20 minutes to be ready to get out the door. I used to get up and take a quick shower, get dressed, spend a couple minutes on my hair, brush my teeth, grab something to eat, take the dog outside to go to the bathroom, gather up any necessary school supplies, check answers on homework, and was out the door to catch my bus. I managed to do a lot in that time so that I didn't have to get up any earlier.