Was Andrew Shaved?

[Kat]

Bridget says she saw Andrew take a big bowl of water up stairs and that's the last time she saw him. This was after breakfast and after Morse left.*
I was wondering that maybe he was preparing to shave.
If he was, then he didn't need shaving at Leduc's Barber Shop that morning. There is no testimony that he was there at Leducs, though 2 Fall River newspapers surmise this. However, the Evening Standard does not mention it, nor do the New York papers: Rochester & NYTimes.
If Andrew wasn't shaved, then his "Last Walk" (see Rebello, 565+), is flawed and so is the timeline.
If Andrew wasn't shaved, he may not have left the house as early as many think, because our first Witness to seeing him officially, is about 9:30 at The Union Savings Bank, Hart & Burrell.
The one thing we do know, which has no direct witness is that he mailed Lizzie's letter to Fairhaven at the post offce because it was returned.

We have 2 "gaps" in Andrew's timeline.
The one between 9 and 9:30 and another one between 9:55 and 10:20.
Either one of these is enough time for him to have killed Abby, believe it or not. Or to have been in the house when it happened...

*Trial
Bridget
Q. When Mr. Borden returned from letting Mr. Morse out where did he go, where did Mr. Borden go?
A. He came to the sink, and he cleaned his teeth in the sink, and after that he took a bowl, a big bowl, and filled it with water and took it up to his room.

Attached please see the timeline I prepared a while ago. It is from The Preliminary Hearing which not many of you have.

[Smudgeman]

This does open a can of worms that I have never really considered. Did Andrew kill Abby? The gap in time of his whereabouts is valid, and anything is possible. Perhaps he brought the big bowl of water to aid the killer with the cleanup, and then the killer turned on him afterwards? I think it is good to consider other possibilities in this case, because it is easy to come to your own conclusions, then look for ways to validate them. Thanks Kat for making me keep an open mind.

[theebmonique]

It has been mentioned somewhere in the forum about whether or not Lizzie could sleep the night before if she knew she was going to commit murder the next day. I wonder how Andrew could settle down for a mid-morning nap if he had just slain his wife ? Of course...maybe that's why he wasn't feeling so well ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

This might more readily explain Lizzie's odd inquest testimony about her father's movements and timing on Thursday morning:

"It must have been after 9 o'clock" when Mr. Borden went down town. (pg. 60).

"I was in the dining room . . . [when Mr. Borden started away] . . . I had just commenced . . . to iron." (pg. 59).

....
"My father did not go away . . . until somewhere about 10." (pg. 68).

From:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Lizzie.htm

--If Andrew had returned to the Borden residence in that gap time period betwen 9:55 and 10:20, then Lizzie could be telling the truth- that he left the house after 10 a.m.
And also that he left the house "after 9 o'clock."
Both gaps are covered by Lizzie's information.

[Susan]

Thats an interesting thought, Kat! That would fill in at least one of those missing gaps of Andrew's time, the possibility that he may have actually come home again for a short while and then gone out again. Bridget was out of the house, she wouldn't have seen him unless she had worked her way around the house with her window washing. Abby, whether living or dead couldn't testify if Andrew did come home again. Maybe that was part of the plan for the day, what may have been discussed the night before in the sitting room; Andrew was to come home and get Abby to accompany him? Hmmm.

[Harry]

In Pearson's The Trial of Lizzie Borden, in a footnote on page 133, there is the following:

"(1) The time between 9.55 and 10.20 was probably spent at a barber's, where Mr Borden was shaved. The barber, for many years thereafter, treasured and regarded with awe-stricken veneration the shaving mug, inscribed in letters of gold: "Andrew J. Borden."

The stopping at the barber shop is mentioned in the FR Globe, Aug. 11th, and in the FR Herald on Aug. 4th.

Wow, wouldn't it be something to locate Andrew's shaving mug.

[Kat]

I pulled the news items earlier from the Globe and the Herald and saved them in my mail drafts. Here are the 2 mentions. They have him shaved at different tmes. Why not call Mr. Leduc to testify? It could be a rumor- and Pearson was known for rumors, sounding oh-so-very-real:

Fall River Daily Herald, August 4, 1892
(from "Case Book of Family and Crime")

SHOCKING CRIME
....
"....and Mr. Borden soon afterward started down town. His first call was to Peter Leduc's barber shop, where he was shaved about 9:30 o'clock. He then dropped into the Union bank to transact some business and talked with Mr. Hart, treasurer of the savings bank, of which Mr. Borden was president. As nearly as can be learned after that he went straight home. He took off his coat and composed himself comfortably on the lounge to sleep."

______________

Fall River Globe, Thursday, August 11, 1892,
"Andrew J. Borden left his house and went down town by way of Second, Borden and Main streets. He called at the Union Savings Bank and talked with treasurer Abram G. Hart. Went into Pierre Leduc's barber shop and was shaved. Returned to the bank at 9.55. Came out immediately and walked on Main street to his estate on the corner of Anawan where he met Charles Horton. This was about 10 o'clock. Several citizens saw him talking to Mr. Horton. Returned home by way of Borden and Second streets. At 10.40 Mrs. Dr. Kelly saw him standing at the front door. "
_________


The path Andrew takes in Rebello, in order to first be shaved, is odd. If he was shaved, I think it would be after the trip to the post office, in the second gap. But why be shaved that late in the morning?
I admit Andrew had been ill the day before and may have wanted a large bowl of water in order to bath, but I don't know why he would bathe after he was already dressed. That's why it's a decent supposition that it was shaving water. Note also the questioner in testimony turns this big bowl of water into a "Pitcher!"

[stuartwsa]

I can't believe that shaving mug has not surfaced. It is too much of a prize to possess, to be kept secret.

[Bob Gutowski]

To get back to the original point, though - I wonder if there would've been any other reason for that basin besides a shave. This is where we need an expert on the domestic customs of the day to chime in! While we're on the subject, I've read, in Lincoln, I think, that Andrew "cleaned his teeth" at the kitchen sink. Should we read that to mean "he took out his partial denture and rinsed it," or that he brushed his teeth - did anyone, in those days?

By the way, we just had a step-son murder his step-father here in NY, with a "samurai" sword as the older man napped on a couch. Eerie parallel, hmm? I'm still not convinced that Andrew was taking a nap, as I've written before, and there wasn't any kind of questioning, I believe, to establish that the old man did or didn't habitually doze off midday on that cramped sofa in his cramped (well, by some standards) house.

[Audrey]

Maybe he took a basin of water up to have a sink bath... He was an adult who wore heavy clothes in the heat and had to have sweat.... Maybe he freshened up this way.

I think he may have cleaned strategic areas daily and bathed whenever he usually did...

[Harry]

I wonder if he ever shaved at home. The cost of paying for a shave may be one of the few things Andrew allowed for himself. His own mug would seem to indicate that he was more than an occasional customer.

Did the senior Borden's room have a mirror, a necessity for shaving? I don't remember any descriptions of the furniture in that room.

As for the basin of water, wouldn't they normally keep something like that in the room since there was no running water on the second floor?

[Bob Gutowski]

Right! Didn't the bedrooms each have a basin and a pitcher, along with the slop jar and chamber pot?

(Remind me to bring some OUST air freshener when I get into that time machine!)

[Harry]

It's always fun to compare the testimony of a person from one hearing to another. Here's Bridget regarding the bowl of water:

Bridget at the Preliminary, page 8:

Q. After Mr. Borden had let Mr. Morse out, where did he go then?
A. The sitting room.
Q. You do not know what he did?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he go up stairs after that?
A. He came out in the kitchen and cleaned his teeth, and then went up stairs.
Q. Up the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was after Morse went; sometime afterwards, or not long?
A. Not very long.
Q. How long was he gone up stairs?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was that the time he came down with his collar and neck tie on?
A. He put his collar and tie on up stairs.
Q. And came down with them on?
A. Yes Sir.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Bridget at the trial, page 223:

Q. When Mr. Borden returned from letting Mr. Morse out where did he go, where did Mr. Borden go?
A. He came to the sink, and he cleaned his teeth in the sink, and after that he took a bowl, a big bowl, and filled it with water and took it up to his room.

>>>>>>>>>>>

At the Preliminary she mentions no bowl. At the trial, the bowl is mentioned.

It also appears that he was still not fully dressed for the street when he went upstairs and the bowl of water may have been for some type of bath.

Also at the Prelim she says she saw Mr. Borden come back down. At the trial she says she did not (page 225+).

Q. Did you see Mr. Borden again?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see Mr. Borden again before you saw him at the front door later on in the morning?
A. No, sir; I didn't see Mr. Borden since I think he went up to his room with the water until I left him in the front door.
Q. Where he had gone in the meantime you do not know?
A. No, sir; I do not.
MR. ROBINSON. I can't hear her now.
THE WITNESS. No, sir; I don't know where he went to.
Q. So the last time you saw him was when he went upstairs with his pitcher and his key?
A. Yes, sir; that is the last I remember of."

Bridget, Bridget, Bridget...make up your mind.

[Pippi]

Traditionally the pitcher with each basin would be stored with full of water ready for the next washing and such would be found in each bedroom etc.

As for cleaning of the teeth the toothbrush started to gain popularity in the States in the later part of the 19th century, 1880's according to Oral B's history of the toothbrush. (I was looking for details about popularity but haven't hit the right history page yet) If one did not invest or care for a brush a rag was a common place substitute.

[Bob Gutowski]

Gee, no wonder Lizzie never smiled!

(No, I know it was 'cause people had to freeze for several minutes due to the long exposure times - witness the half-a-man in the Andrew on the sofa shot!)

[Kat]

Harry posted:
Prelim
8
Bridget
Q. How long was he gone up stairs?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was that the time he came down with his collar and neck tie on?
A. He put his collar and tie on up stairs.
Q. And came down with them on?
A. Yes Sir.

____________
Notice the above is included below in context:

Prelim
Bridget
6+
Q. After he came in with his pail, what did he do then?
A. He washed, and got ready for breakfast.

Q. Washed where?
A. In the kitchen.

Q. He washed in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was he dressed when he came down?
A. In his shirt sleeves.

Q. Have his coat with him?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did he put his coat on?
A. No Sir. He had his dressing coat, a short coat, hanging in the kitchen.

Q. He put it on there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did he have his collar and neck tie on when he came down?
A. No Sir.

Page 7

Q. Did he put those on?
A. No Sir.

Q. Not for breakfast?
A. No Sir.

Q. When did he put them on?
A. After breakfast I think. He went up stairs to his room.
.....
8
Q. What did Mr. Borden do after he let Mr. Morse out?
A. Went into the sitting room back again.

Q. Was that before he had put on his collar and neck tie? He had not done that then?
A. No Sir.
.....
Q. Where was Mrs. Borden when Mr. Morse was let out?
A. She was not in the dining room. I expect she was in the sitting room.

Q. Did you see her afterwards?
A. I did about nine o'clock.

Q. After Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that before Mr. Borden went?
A. Mr. Borden was gone then.

Q. About what time did Mr. Borden go out?
A. I did not see him go out.

Q. Where were you when he went out?
A. I did not see him going, not to my memory.

Q. You do not know where you were?
A. No Sir.
.......

Q. After Mr. Borden had let Mr. Morse out, where did he go then?
A. The sitting room.

Q. You do not know what he did?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did he go up stairs after that?
A. He came out in the kitchen and cleaned his teeth, and then went up stairs.

Page 9

Q. Up the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. That was after Morse went; sometime afterwards, or not long?
A. Not very long.

Q. How long was he gone up stairs?
A. I could not tell.

Q. Was that the time he came down with his collar and neck tie on?
A. He put his collar and tie on up stairs.

Q. And came down with them on?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did he do anything about his coat when he came down that time?
A. I did not see him. He went in the sitting room.

Q. Where did he keep the coat that he wore out of doors?
A. In the dining room.

Q. Did you see him with that on?
A. No Sir.

Q. So the last time you saw him before he went out, he had his house coat on?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You say you did not see him go out?
A. No Sir.

Q. You do not know who let him out, or whether he went out the back way or not?
A. I do not know.

Q. Did you go out of the kitchen anywhere?
A. I was out in the back yard.

Q. What were you doing out there?
A. I was out in the back yard; I was not feeling very well, and I was out there.
.......

I think Bridget is saying in her mixed-up way, that she did not see Andrew after he went upstairs. She didn't see him in his outdoor coat. He had no tie or collar when she saw him and he washed in the kitchen sink.
She's assuming he put his collar and tie on before he left but she never saw him totally dressed to go out. Notice where it is asked:
"Was that the time he came down with his collar and neck tie on?
It seems she is really saying that is what he usually does- put the tie and collar on upstairs.
If Andrew ate in his shirtsleeves, he might take water up to shave after breakfast. As I said- he was already dressed. I don't think he would strip down again to wash after doing all his other ablutions previously that morning. He would leave off his collar until he shaved.
He did take the key from the sitting room, and I'm trying to picture him at the top of the stairs with a full, heavy bowl of water, juggling that and trying to unlock his bedroom door.

[Kat]

Another thing: All those places Lizzie said she was when her father came home? Maybe she was in all those places if he left and returned and left and returned. One time in the kitchen, one time on the stairs... Lizzie, by now, may know she can't say that Andrew returned (for some reason) and so she takes the jabs at her story without explaining.
I recently read that a person would take the fall for someone else if they felt a responsibility toward them- felt responsible for them. But it went on to question the judgement of someone who would then knowingly leave a homicidal murderer out running loose while they themselves went to jail...

Lizzie says she was in 2 places when Andrew came home, she has him leaving at 2 different times and Andrew has 2 time gaps...

[Allen]

Well, I do not think that Andrew killed Abby. Even if he did have time gaps. If Andrew killed Abby, then who killed Andrew and why? Is Lizzie going to become so enraged over the murder of Abby by Andrew that she kills her own father? Andrew killing Abby doesn't add up to me. I believe Andrew's time gaps are honestly a perfectly natural thing. If I were to die today, heaven forbid, I would not be able to find witnesses to accurately account for every minute from the time I woke up, until the time my body was discovered. Especially if I had been out and about town, there could not possibly be a witness who could account for all my time or my whereabouts. I think the bowl of water he took upstairs was quite possibly used to shave.I can think of no other reason for him to take that bowl of water to his room, if he was in fact already dressed. I can't see him undressing again to take a bath. Unless, he was simply replacing the basin of water he had used earlier that morning for cleaning up prior to getting dressed.

[Nancie]

I was recently thinking along those lines, re:accountablity. haven't we all looked in a junk drawer for a rubber band or something, and then spent a lot more time there looking at other things and one leads to another, oh yea here's that velcro
I was looking for, might as well fix such and such right now... just getting sidetracked and putzing around, wasting time, procrastinate. I sure do it every day, thats why easy to understand Lizzie in the barn, Lizzie basting a dress, a little ironing, munch on a pear. Who would remember exactly where and what order we did these mundane things? Lizzie's confusion adds to her innocence because if this was the great planned-out masterpiece of a double murder that she is credited
with, surely she would have remembered her every
action according to blueprint. ?

[Allen]

Well unless it was not a planned attack, and it was a spur of the moment thing that set her into a rage. Then there would be no blue print to follow. She would have to wing it.

[Kat]

I think it's possible to say Andrew probably didn't murder Abby, but we have this big "coincidence" of the times meshing between Lizzie's testimony of her whereabouts and when Andrew left- and Andrew's gaps not being seen downtown or accounted for by any witness.
Supposing he was shaved first thing between 9 and 9:30, there is still that midmorning gap from just before 10. Then we have Lizzie saying her father left about 10.

I figured this might be important, if Andrew returned: Especially to those who think Lizzie is innocent. It makes her statements jibe with each other if this bit were just added to her story. If she left it out and took the heat of close questioning, then we should try to figure out why- what was Andrew up to?

Anyone is welcome to find more witnesses to Andrew's downtown wanderings and posting it here- there very well may be...

[Susan]

If Andrew ate in his shirtsleeves, he might take water up to shave after breakfast. As I said- he was already dressed. I don't think he would strip down again to wash after doing all his other ablutions previously that morning. He would leave off his collar until he shaved.

I wish Bridget was more clear on the water issue, such as where did Andrew fill the bowl? From the sink with cold water or say from some water heater or tea kettle in the kitchen with hot water. I was just reading on a site on how to shave with a straight razor and they say that warm water, never hot, should be used when shaving with one. If the water was cold, I can't imagine Andrew shaving with that.

Heres a link to the site:

http://www.menessentials.com/oxid.php/s ... razors.tpl

I think if Andrew washed at the sink in the sink room, it was probably only his face and hands, I can't see him going further with women about the house and in full view of the maid. Was he possibly bringing up water to replentish the water in his wash pitcher?


I like this line of thinking that Andrew possibly stopped home and went back downtown. Could it have been something as simple as he forgot something, say paperwork, and came home to retrieve it? It does make more sense out of Lizzie's ramblings about where she was that morning if he did come home again for a short while!

[Audrey]

I think Andrew would have come downstairs fully dressed and them disrobed again to "sink bathe" later.. It was not an age where one roamed about the house in their nightclothes.

Like Susan, I would think knowing the temperature of the water may make it easier to speculate as to what he might do with that water!

[Tina-Kate]

If Andrew did come home earlier & go back out again, he would have had to come thru the side door, as we know Lizzie had kept the front door locked up. Would he have been able to come back & go without Bridget seeing him? (Similar to questions re an intruder). Would his return not also have fouled up the murder of Abby? Also, him coming home makes Lizzie's questioning re the mail (testified by both Lizzie & Bridget) seem rather odd, as he would have brought the mail home on his first return. I also wonder why Leduc was never called to testify re the shave.

[Kat]

Those are good points. Bridget says she didn't see Andrew again until she let him in the front door. So we might assume she just didn't see him if he returned, if she is telling the truth.
The asking for mail might mean anything. When I lived in Boston the mail was delivered twice a day. Lizzie may have asked twice.
Abby is already dead, or he killed her (which seems less likely), but if Andrew didn't know Abby was dead, and he wanted her- he would wait- and then leave again - maybe telling Lizzie to send her downtown when she gets home- or says nothing at all.

[Susan]

Hmmm, that just made me think, if Andrew had been home again and as far as he knew, Abby was alive and well and at home at that point in time. He leaves and comes home again a short while later only to be told that Abby had a note that morning and has gone out to see someone who is sick. With him being home so much, he may have thought that it was ridiculous, there wasn't enough time for to get a note and get ready to go out and possibly call for a cab. Hence his quick trip up to his room to see if Abby was there, he may have outright disbelieved Lizzie's story about the note. So, Bridget could admit that he went up there, but, Lizzie wouldn't be able to admit to it because of the reason Andrew went up there for.

Didn't John Morse go in the evening to mail a letter at the post office? From what was said about him going into the post office, it sounds like it was open quite late, perhaps there were mail deliveries there morning, afternoon and night? I think it was in 1892 that home mailboxes were patented, there was home delivery before that, but, it sounds like most people in towns or cities went to the post office to pick up their mail.

[Kat]

Andrew coming back and leaving and coming back might just be making someone desperate.
If he needed Abby and the story given him twice was she was out- he may have been ready to kick up a fuss. And got killed for it.
Maybe he did find Abby when he finally came home at 10:40 and there was a scene.
Somehow, if this happened this way, I can see the possibility of an escalation of the tension leading to his murder. This also creates the reason for Andrew's murderer to kill him with desperation, which his many blows seems to reveal.
But we've always had this slow-motion time gap, like a time-warp, where everything moves slowly toward his awful death- but no tension leading up to it.

[Susan]

If Andrew found Abby, do you think he would have kept it quiet so that Bridget didn't know or hear about it? My thought is that he would have called in the authorities immediately, but, possibly his knowing that it was Lizzie's doing may have made him hesitate?

Maybe when Bridget went up to lay down on her bed Andrew did question Lizzie more closely about Abby's whereabouts, grilled her about it unmercifully which would build up that tension to kill. Or, that he knew what Lizzie did and was planning on having his uncontrolable, dangerous daughter commited to an asylum! He may have held his tongue in front of Bridget, because I can't imagine if Lizzie knew what was on his mind that she could calmly commence to iron in the next room chattering about dress sales and that Mrs. Borden had gone out.

[john]

What did the woman who stayed with Mrs. Churchill say about Andrew's comings and goings on his fatal day?

[Nancie]

But if Andrew had made a fuss or knew what was
going on, would he lay down to take a nap?

[Allen]

If Andrew found Abby, do you think he would have kept it quiet so that Bridget didn't know or hear about it? My thought is that he would have called in the authorities immediately, but, possibly his knowing that it was Lizzie's doing may have made him hesitate?

I also cannot see Andrew being quiet, waiting for Bridget to go upstairs to lay down, and then bringing up his wife's dead body in the guest room to Lizzie. He finds Abby laying dead and decides to keep it under his hat in front of the Bridget? Who keeps their peace and waits for an opportunity to talk to a murderer quietly? Whether it is your own child or not? I do think it's possible he thought something was up, and could've waited for an opportunity to question Lizzie. But I don't think he suspected Abby was dead. This questioning could have made Lizzie feel backed into a corner, and that could have sealed Andrew's fate.

[Kat]

If Andrew found Abby dead then Bridget would have to probably know about it and be bought off like some people think. The manic escalation of murderous intent toward Andrew may have started at this point. A big scene involving Andrew, Lizzie and Bridget: the girls who were on the property when Abby was killed. It provides an immediate motive to kill Andrew with a weapon already used, at hand, so-to-speak.
Or
Bridget finding Abby or Lizzie finding Abby and accusing Andrew?

Thinking of things which will get the killer worked up to attack Andrew, because I can't picture this quiet hiding culprit, patiently waiting for Andrew's return in order to kill him with such manic vigour.

The windows were closed because of the excuse of window-washing...

[john]

Yes he was there to do a wig meeting.

[FairhavenGuy]

Kat, these times from the witness statements don't quite match your times. And Mary Gallagher comes in with a 10:15 sighting. I don't know if that was discredited elsewhere.

9:30 A.M.

A. C. Hart - Union Saving Bank, “about half past nine A.M.” “remained a few minutes” upon leaving “went north.”

“About 10:00 A.M.”

Everett Cook - First National Bank, “ about 10 o’clock; it might be as early as 9:50.” Deposited check. Talked to Mr. William Carr “a few minutes.” “Not here more than ten minutes.”

John T. Burrill - Union National Bank, “as near as we can place the time about ten o’clock.”

“Shortly after 10”

Edith Francis - Borden Block, saw Borden pass “shortly after 10” heading south on So. Main.

10:15

Mary Gallagher-cor. Main & Spring, “just turning up Spring, with a small package in his hand, at 10:15.”

10:29

Jonathan Clegg - store, “at just 10:29”

“Between 10:30 and 10:45”

Joseph Shortsleeves and James Mather - “a building of Mr. Borden’s” Borden left them “between 10:30 and 10:45.”

[Allen]

Thinking of things which will get the killer worked up to attack Andrew, because I can't picture this quiet hiding culprit, patiently waiting for Andrew's return in order to kill him with such manic vigour.
...

Do you think Lizzie would be so angry that her father had killed Abby that she killed him? I can't see that. Lizzie detested Abby. Also, what would be a motive for Andrew to first kill Abby? Can anyone think of one? The killer quietly waiting is not a new phenomenon.It's happened many times. If someone has enough hate and vengence in their heart, anything is possible. But I think the only killer quietly waiting in that house was Lizzie, who had no choice but to wait.

[Kat]

Thamks, Christopher. I was looking for the Francis & Gallagher statements myself yesterday. I though there was a 10 o'clock woman on a street corner and was wondering when or how someone would come up with them.
I think I recall one being discredited, Mary Gallagher (supposed 10:15 sighting), as Andrew wasn't there turning onto Spring Street at that time. If she was wrong in her timing, she could have seen Andrew returning home up Spring to Second, say right around 10. That fits our parameter. Home by 10:05 or so, and still have the gap until Clegg at South Main & Spring area at 10:30.
That is what I was looking for.
It's like a 3 minute walk to #92 up Spring.

[FairhavenGuy]

A point against Andrew making a second (or rather a first) trip home is the fact that while he was seen outside by Mrs. Churchill about 9:00 and was seen by Mrs. Kelley going into the house sometime after 10:30, nobody saw him around Second Street in between. None of those street witnesses who saw carriages or wild eyed men or a woman between the house and the barn, etc. saw Andrew. Seems to me he'd be pretty hard to miss.

Do we know what time Mrs. Dr. Bowen started to sit in her front window watching for her daughter?

[diana]

According to Phoebe Bowen's testimony at the preliminary hearing, she watched for her daughter for about 10-15 minutes from approximately 10:40 - 10:55 a.m.

She said she saw no one go in or out of the house but "was back and forth from the window during that time" and also admitted that, because her blinds were closed, she could not see the Borden yard from where she stood. (p.505+)

[FairhavenGuy]

Thanks, Diana.

In the witness statements, it says Mrs. Dr. B's window was directly opposite the Borden yard, "and in full view of the front and side doors." It doesn't mention closed blinds, which makes all the difference in the world.

[john]

yes, fairhavenguy. caroline kelly had a dentest appointmen and left her house accoring to her clock at 28 minutes to 11:00 and saw andrew at the front door at that time, trying to get in. probably give or take a minute or two.

[john]

also, regarding an earlier point we discussed, not you and me, fairhaven guy, that in lizzie's inquest testimony she plans to go out on thursday (dooms day) afternoon to buy fishing equimpent.
also, on a more interesting note, andrew went into the barn as one of the first things he did that morning. why?

[snokkums]

If Andrew Bordon shaved at home, where is the wash basin, water pitcher, and razor that he used? It would have been too valuable to get rid of. I think he did go out for his shave, people just got the times wrong as to when he went.

robin

[Kat]

The people around the area didn't see Bridget either, but she says she was outside all that time. Her only sightings are supposedly by Mary Doolan around 9:30, and two sightings around 10 am by Pettee and Mrs. Churchill.

Who emptied the bloody basin of water from the guestroom? No one admitted to that either. There certainly are gaps in the everyday minutiae, so we can't just assume there was no shaving water.
Has anybody looked at the last walk of Andrew in Rebello? Do you see the route and how odd it looks? Have you guys seen where Leduc's was located?

[john]

i never heard of a bloody basin of water in the guestroom - god i gotta get a hobby - build little bottle ships and sell them to the chinese - i knew borden would get to be an ack - other crimes, zodiac, for example, are easy, because you see how they can happen. a guy comes up to a car and shoots some people, for example - it can happen. but the borden crime, as i origionally saw it, was absolutely impossible to have happened. it just couldn't. so i started looking into it and find it's so much different than origionally portrayed, i find a lot thanks to this forum, but i have to get back to building my little ships.

[Tina-Kate]

A while back while off the board I found an interesting bit in Williams' *Casebook* re Andrew & the post office on Aug 4. It's from Aug 6 Fall River *Daily Herald*, Casebook pg 48 --

"The time when Mr Borden was talking with Charles Horton on the post office steps and when the officers stood over his dead body must have been consumed in hiding a bloody garment or removing blood stains."

I wonder why this "Charles Horton" wasn't called to testify re Andrew's movements that morning.

[Tina-Kate]

Hmmm - word search shows no "Charles Horton" in the *Witness Statements* either. I often wonder if in all the confusion, the police & everybody else missed many leads.

[Kat]

That's a good one. Charles Horton.

Everwhere I look now I see Andrew being shaved- but no official source- no testimony under oath- how can they leave that out???

[Harry]

Tina-Kate, I've been wondering who he was as well.

Horton is mentioned by Porter in the Fall River Tragedy, page 29:

"It was known that Mr. Borden was talking to Mr. Charles M. Horton at 10:30 o'clock, as they were seen together by persons on the Chace Mill car that leaves City Hall for Bedford and Quarry streets at 10:30. The car was standing in front of the building. After leaving Mr. Horton, Mr. Borden walked up South Main street, stopping for a minute or two at this block and then going through Borden street to Second and to his home."

I wonder if Horton might be Clegg.

The direction Andrew took according to the above paragraph contradicts Shortsleeves and Mather who said Andrew was was headed toward Spring Street which was just a few doors away. Borden Street would have been in the opposite direction from Spring.

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks, Harry. I can't access my Porter (on CD) as my CD drive is toast. It just adds to the confusion tho, doesn't it? It's puzzling why they only brought the bankers & AJB block construction guys in to testify re his movements that morning. The writer of the Aug 6 *Herald* article words it as tho it were common knowledge Andrew spoke with this "Horton" @ the post office. & why didn't they bring in barber LeDuc? Reading the trial recently, Jennings stated in his closing argument that no one saw AJB between leaving his house & going to the bank. It's strange. Maybe these leads didn't pan out, or people refused to testify, not wanting to get involved?

[Tina-Kate]

Oops -- that's "Opening Argument for the Defence", not closing argument. (I wish I could edit my posts!) -- Jennings: "...there has not been a living soul put on the stand here to testify that they saw Andrew J. Borden come down street from his house. From his house to the Union Savings Bank he has been absolutely invisible." -- How come??