Uncle John’s motive: a conjecture

[Franz]

0. Months ago, a Stefani’s online interview caught again our attention on an old theory about the Borden case: Incest; Andrew (and Abby) was killed (by Lizzie) because he abused his daughters. I think that if the incest theory is a valid one for some people, for them it could be always valid if the conjectured guilty is someone other than Lizzie. Here I borrow the incest theory to give a motive to uncle John. Certainly, just a conjecture.

1. Uncle John orchestrated the double murder, because Andrew abused his daughter Emma, and Abby was killed as well since she knew the incestuous affair but she didn’t do nothing.

2. Andrew might have begun to abuse Emma soon after the death of his first wife Sarah. He didn’t stop after he married Abby. Abby knew the facts and chose the silence.

3. For obvious reasons, Emma chose the silence as well. In order to protect her younger sister, Emma decided not to marry herself. She could have been successful; in other words, Lizzie could have not been a second victim of her father.

4. The Borden’s life continued apparently peacefully, until one day --- maybe not very long before the murder occurred --- when uncle John knew, accidently, the hidden secret of his brother-in-law. He decided to act: to kill Andrew and Abby (because from a certain point of view she was accomplice of Andrew, and because as well that she must die, and must die before Andrew, so that the Borden girls could have the family’s wealth.)

5. Since Morse must kill Abby first and then Andrew, he couldn’t choose another place, but the Borden house, for the murder. He prepared carefully his plan and found two people as his accomplices (cf. my precedent threads).

6. Morse chose a day – 4th August --- to act when Emma was absent, not only because there was one person in less in the house (his accomplice had more chance to succeed), but also, there might have been an unconscious reason: uncle John chose a time when the victim (Emma) of the guilty to punish (Andrew and Abby) was absent of the revenge scene.

7. Emma didn’t know that uncle John knew the incestuous affair. After the double murder occurred, she and Lizzie at a moment suspected Morse as the guilty, but Emma didn’t know that the motive of uncle John might be that thing.

8. Morse asked his accomplice to overkill the two victims, in order to make people believe that the killer was a man. But unfortunately Lizzie was suspected. Morse chose to keep silence until the trial finished. He decided to confess all if Lizzie was found guilty. Fortunately this time, this didn’t happen.

9. Uncle John gained a lot by killing his brother-in-law and the second wife of the latter: he revenged his sister Sarah; he revenged his niece Emma, he punished the criminal(s) without ruining the reputation of the Borden girls; he made his nieces rich sooner.

10. Uncle John did this because he was a honest person. Only after the murder, and after the trial of Lizzie, he could live the rest of his life with his conscience in peace. He decided not to tell nothing to his two nieces, and he lost contact with them.

11. Uncle John was the real guilty, but meanwhile, he (and his accomplices) was the epic hero in all this story, behind the curtain.

12. (P.S.: Abby and Andrew were suddenly and surprisingly murdered in one day of their apparently peaceful life. If the killer was not Lizzie --- for whom we can easily, too easily, find a motive --- the motive of the murder must have been something unknown, perfectly hidden to us. Generally speaking an incestuous affair at that time, even today, is something that must be hidden.)

[violette]

I've always found it interesting that the murders did occur on a day that Emma was away, maybe purely coincidental but maybe it wasn't. Maybe the killer waited until they knew that she was away to make their move (if we presume that it was premeditated).

Uncle John Morse has always been a figure of interest to me. For all that is known about him, he's still very much a mysterious figure. Why did he decide to visit after such a long time and why did his visit coincide with the murders? Again maybe coincidence, maybe not.

It would be incredibly difficult to prove that incest happened within the home. How would he have found out about it? If Uncle John found out from another source than it would have been whispered gossip behind closed doors. It would seem likely that others would have known about it too. I'm sure sexual abuse wasn't talked very much at all publicly in the 19th century.

Your thoughts have heightened my interest more into John Morse.

[Franz]

Yes, Violette. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any evidence concerning a matter that people want absolutely to hide to the public.

We know that on that murder day a great part of the police was absent in the town. Just another coincidence?

[debbiediablo]

One interesting tidbit with regard to incest and sexual molestation in general: in 1880 Massachusetts (and most of the rest of the US) the legal age for consensual sex was ten. By 1920 the law changed to 16. I'm in the minority in thinking that Andrew abusing one or both of the girls doesn't seems far fetched. In fact, I think it's probable but not provable. We have subtle hints (a neighbor stating that some things are worse than crazy when asked about the Borden's mental health) plus Andrew's rigid, controlling behavior coupled with indulgence of the sisters and Abby when pressured. So many times victims of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, tend to blame the maternal figure in the household no matter which parent was the perpetrator. Unless the mother actively places herself in harm's way to protect the children, these same children will blame her for 'allowing' their victimization. This coupled with the fact that Abby was their step-mother likely accounts for her extreme overkill; whereas Andrew's body showed signs first of depersonalization and then of undoing - exactly what would be expected from a child who both loved and hated him. I also think the changing of bedrooms between Emma and Lizzie indicated that Emma was protective of Lizzie, and then Lizzie came home from Europe with her shame transitioned into rage directed at both Abby AND her father - ultimately be borne out via hatchet. So Lizzie moved into the role of protector. Somewhere John Watson says Lizzie was a psychopath who would want no help with the crime. He is right. IF Lizzie is the murderer then she was a psychopath who would act unilaterally. She would be so convinced of her own superiority so as to burn a dress in front of her sister and the neighbor and then be amazed when this behavior was viewed as suspicious. Even if she burned the murder dress itself! No matter how smart or dumb or lucky, a psychopath always thinks they are smarter than everyone.

[Franz]

...In fact, I think it's (incest) probable but not provable..

Yes, I agree. Meanwhile, I think some facts might be suggestive. For exemple:

1. Emma never got married.

2. When Sarah died, Emma was 12 (Lizzie 3). Could we say ... a "dangerous" age?

3. Bridget --- even though she had less work to do than many other servants, and was decently payed, and was in good relations with Abby --- wanted to leave the house. Was it possible that Andrew did any avance to her but was refused?

4. Emma was more closer to uncle John before the murder occured. Was it possible that she, being molested by her father, took uncle John as her father figure?

Certainly, all these don't prove nothing. But they might demosntrate that the incest theory is not impossible.

[debbiediablo]

...In fact, I think it's (incest) probable but not provable..

Yes, I agree. Meanwhile, I think some facts might be suggestive. For exemple:

1. Emma never got married.

2. When Sarah died, Emma was 12 (Lizzie 3). Could we say ... a "dangerous" age?

3. Bridget --- even though she had less work to do than many other servants, and was decently payed, and was in good relations with Abby --- wanted to leave the house. Was it possible that Andrew did any avance to her but was refused?

4. Emma was more closer to uncle John before the murder occured. Was it possible that she, being molested by her father, took uncle John as her father figure?

Certainly, all these don't prove nothing. But they might demosntrate that the incest theory is not impossible.

I agree with all of your post, Franz, and in particular with the point you make about Bridget. For some reason she wanted to leave what was a cushy job for an immigrant female in 1892 Fall River. She was well paid (commensurate with factory work) had Thursday afternoon and Sunday off AND Abby took care of the master suite and the guest room, and the sisters took care of their own bedrooms. No doubt this arrangement still kept Bridget busy, but not nearly so busy as a lot of maids in those days. And not nearly as backbreaking and mind numbing as factory employment. She even had the freedom to take a nap before lunch. Yet Bridget wanted to leave. Plus, her employer (and no one will convince me that Andrew allowed Abby to hire and supervise the maid without his input...not likely for man who demonstrated a rigid and controlling behavior in all other aspects of his life, particularly those involving money and even whether possibly tainted food should be served again or thrown out)...Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

[twinsrwe]

... Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

I agree, Debbie, Andrew's generosity of Bridget's wages does seem to be out of character for him. Just a thought...

If I recall correctly, Bridget wanted to leave a couple of times, but Abby talked her into staying. Perhaps Andrew's generosity regarding Bridget's wages, was due to Abby's influence over her husband. (We know that when it came to Abby's wishes, Andrew was more than generous. The Whitehead house is an excellent example.) I believe Andrew did whatever it took to please his wife.

[debbiediablo]

I agree that Andrew's generosity may have been influenced by Abby...more than likely it was. However I wonder why Bridget wanted to leave given her relationship with Abby and the relative generosity of her employer. This is not a rhetorical question: could she have done better elsewhere?

[Franz]

... Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

I agree, Debbie, Andrew's generosity of Bridget's wages does seem to be out of character for him. Just a thought...

If I recall correctly, Bridget wanted to leave a couple of times, but Abby talked her into staying. Perhaps Andrew's generosity regarding Bridget's wages, was due to Abby's influence over her husband. (We know that when it came to Abby's wishes, Andrew was more than generous. The Whitehead house is an excellent example.) I believe Andrew did whatever it took to please his wife.

Very good observation, twinsrwe. Andrew might have been influenced by Abby.

But could we ask this question? --- why was Andrew so kind with his second wife? Certainly, the answer might be very simple one: Andrew was a very good husband...

[violette]

... Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

I agree, Debbie, Andrew's generosity of Bridget's wages does seem to be out of character for him. Just a thought...

If I recall correctly, Bridget wanted to leave a couple of times, but Abby talked her into staying. Perhaps Andrew's generosity regarding Bridget's wages, was due to Abby's influence over her husband. (We know that when it came to Abby's wishes, Andrew was more than generous. The Whitehead house is an excellent example.) I believe Andrew did whatever it took to please his wife.

Very good observation, twinsrwe. Andrew might have been influenced by Abby.

But could we ask this question? --- why was Andrew so kind with his second wife? Certainly, the answer might be very simple one: Andrew was a very good husband...

He was a good husband in some respects, however, he did make a big fuss when Abby called Doctor Bowen over because she was afraid that they had been poisoned and they had both been very sick with stomach issues. What if Abby had been poisoned, wouldn't he have wanted her to get proper medical care? I think that this instance shows that he was too stingy to pay the fee for what he felt was an ailment that could be cured at home.

[debbiediablo]

I can argue from multiple positions on almost everything Lizzie. Andrew appears to be controlling bordering on skinflint. However I doubt he was much different from many self-made men of that era. He did provide for Abby's sister and again when Lizzie and Emma demanded equal treatment. Lizzie got her trip abroad. Thing is he had two unmarried non-working adult daughters who (unless something dramatically changed) would need to live out their lives from the money in Andrew's estate. Plus a wife who was somewhat younger and came from a needy family with close ties to her. There is evidence that Andrew desired to provide for all of them although dying without a will seems so out of character for someone as attentive to business detail. Unless the will ended up in the stove.

I can see where running water and electricity would've seemed unnecessary to him, sort of like smartphones, laptops and d-links don't flourish in most septuagenarian homes today. Aside from what seems out of character with Bridget's employment, he was definite regarding Bowen not making a house call. Perhaps he had reasons to dislike Bowen above and beyond $$$. Bowen had every opportunity to walk that hatchet right out the door and ditch it in the river or wherever. He was inexplicably burning papers in the neighbor's stove that made little sense on the afternoon of a double murder. He protected Lizzie in her bedroom. Keeping in mind that people who find a parent with their face hacked off may respond in ways that defy logic, Lizzie's shout to Bridget that someone came in and killed father, go get Dr. Bowen would make more sense if she had shouted someone came in and killed father, we need to contact the police. After which they would both flee the house in case the killer was in the front closet.

[violette]

I've wondered why, if she knew that he was dead, why have Bridget go for Doctor Bowen? Andrew was obviously beyond needing a doctor. She stated that someone has came in and killed father. She knew he was dead. All logic would have screamed go for the police, run out of the house, do something besides stay in the house with your murdered father while the maid goes to find a specific doctor.

[Franz]

We are all out of the the tragedy and we can consider it in the most logical way. But Lizzie and Bridget were living it. Even Mrs. Churchill didn't think to call the police immediately after being told the death of Andrew, she too thought firstly to find a doctor for him.

[twinsrwe]

... Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

I agree, Debbie, Andrew's generosity of Bridget's wages does seem to be out of character for him. Just a thought...

If I recall correctly, Bridget wanted to leave a couple of times, but Abby talked her into staying. Perhaps Andrew's generosity regarding Bridget's wages, was due to Abby's influence over her husband. (We know that when it came to Abby's wishes, Andrew was more than generous. The Whitehead house is an excellent example.) I believe Andrew did whatever it took to please his wife.

Very good observation, twinsrwe. Andrew might have been influenced by Abby.

But could we ask this question? --- why was Andrew so kind with his second wife? Certainly, the answer might be very simple one: Andrew was a very good husband...

Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

I think Andrew had to have thought very highly of Abby, which is evident when he purchased Abby's stepmother's half of a house and put it in Abby's name so that her half-sister would not be put out of her home. That is NOT something anyone would do for a person they did not think very highly of. I think Andrew adored Abby, loved her deeply, and would do anything to make her happy.

I think the influence Abby held over Andrew was not because of anything she said or did, but because he loved her so deeply that he did, whatever it took to bring her happiness. Sometimes it is difficult to tell what is in a person’s heart, when it is not openly displayed in public. The little information we have regarding the relationship between Andrew and Abby indicates to me that they were very private people, who did not display their affections outside their home. However, behind closed doors may very well have been quite the opposite.

[debbiediablo]

I, too, think Andrew loved Abby but moreover I think he respected her, listened to her, cared for her and wanted her to be happy. They seemed to share a lot of commonalities: strong work ethic, careful with money, quiet lifestyle, simple living compared to what they could afford. More than soulmates I see them as two peas in a pod. Which was likely enough for both of them...marriages during this time were often for reasons other than romantic love as we see it today. Then again, we have no clue what went on behind their walls.

[Franz]

...
Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

...

twinsrwe, yes, I said that Andrew might be a very good husband. Might be... This might be the answer. But not the unique possible answer, IMO.

Many think Lizzie killed the both victims. Well. She killed for money. Well. She killed Abby because she hated her... This hate is never convincingly established and proved for me.

But if by any chance the killer was not Lizzie, why such a woman like Abby did she merit such a horrible death? I questioned and questioned myself. (For Andrew we could still conjecture a business motive, but why Abby?)

What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought.

As you observed, twinsrwe, the Bordens were very private people. We will probably never know what happened in that house...

[twinsrwe]

He was a good husband in some respects, however, he did make a big fuss when Abby called Doctor Bowen over because she was afraid that they had been poisoned and they had both been very sick with stomach issues. What if Abby had been poisoned, wouldn't he have wanted her to get proper medical care? I think that this instance shows that he was too stingy to pay the fee for what he felt was an ailment that could be cured at home.

According to Alice Russell’s testimony at the trial, the story about Andrew saying, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.', came from Lizzie during her visit to Alice the night before the murders. Below is Alice Russell’s testimony about what Lizzie told her.

Alice Russell’s testimony. Trial, Page 379 (Highlighting and underlining are mine):

Q. What had she said just before the burning of the house?
A. I think that was the beginning of her telling me about her fears of somebody breaking in, before she told me about the breaking into the barn, I think.

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation?
A. I don't think of anything.

Q. Anything about doing anything to any member of the household; not herself, but anyone else; anything to her father. She was afraid that someone would do something.
A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes---I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people." And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going; and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.' She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her---she told him she was afraid they were poisoned ---and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison. And she came back, and Dr. Bowen came over." And she said, "I am so ashamed, the way father treated Dr. Bowen. I was so mortified." And she said after he had gone Mrs. Borden said she thought it was too bad for him to treat Dr. Bowen so, and [he] said he didn't want him coming over there that way.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... orden1.pdf

__________

However, Dr. Bowen’s testimony at the Inquest hearing, tells quite a different story, from the story Lizzie told Alice Russell. This is what Dr. Bowen said, regarding Abby being afraid she had been poisoned and his visit to the Borden’s house.

Inquest, page 115/22 and 116/23 (Highlighting and underlining is mine):

"Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisened. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said she only ate cake and baker’s white bread. At that time she had a sort of an eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home, and told her what to take; and she took it.

Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, and take it in a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want. I think immediately after breakfast, I thought they were neighbors, I would just go over. Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at that time, about twelve. I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast. I think Bridget let me in, I am very sure it was the front door. I says “Mr. Borden, what is the matter?” He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me. I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see. He seemed well enough then. He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine. I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home. I did not think much about it. I saw Mr. Borden out two or three hours afterwards. When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs. Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before."

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... ay2003.pdf

This indicates to me that there was not the big blow from Andrew that Lizzie claimed, and Abby did not call Dr. Bowen over to the Borden house. When it came to his family, Andrew was not the stingy man that many people believe he was.

[twinsrwe]

I, too, think Andrew loved Abby but moreover I think he respected her, listened to her, cared for her and wanted her to be happy. They seemed to share a lot of commonalities: strong work ethic, careful with money, quiet lifestyle, simple living compared to what they could afford. More than soulmates I see them as two peas in a pod. Which was likely enough for both of them...marriages during this time were often for reasons other than romantic love as we see it today. Then again, we have no clue what went on behind their walls.

I agree, Debbie. Great post!

[twinsrwe]

...
Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

...

twinsrwe, yes, I said that Andrew might be a very good husband. Might be... This might be the answer. But not the unique possible answer, IMO.

Many think Lizzie killed the both victims. Well. She killed for money. Well. She killed Abby because she hated her... This hate is never convincingly established and proved for me.

But if by any chance the killer was not Lizzie, why such a woman like Abby did she merit such a horrible death? I questioned and questioned myself. (For Andrew we could still conjecture a business motive, but why Abby?)

What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought.

As you observed, twinsrwe, the Bordens were very private people. We will probably never know what happened in that house...

My apologies, you did say that Andrew might be a very good husband.

I agree. We can speculate until the cows come home, but we will probably never know what actually happened in that house.

[Franz]

...
My apologies, you did say that Andrew might be a very good husband.

I agree. We can speculate until the cows come home, but we will probably never know what actually happened in that house.

It's all ok, twinsrwe.

I wonder, if the killer was not Lizzie, why was Abby killed as well? For what reason did she merit such a horrible death?

[twinsrwe]

... It's all ok, twinsrwe. ...

Thanks, Franz.

[twinsrwe]

Franz, you have been asking some interesting questions and stating intriguing thoughts, on this thread, which I’s like to comments on.

... What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought. ...

That’s an interesting thought you have here, Franz.

I can’t image a man being so afraid of his wife, simply because she would ‘let the cat out of the bag’, if he didn’t do everything in his power to keep her happy. I think if this were true, then Abby would have demanded a lot more from Andrew than she got.

Did Emma and Lizzie also hold a terrible secret over their father’s head, which out of fear that they would ‘spill the beans’ on him, caused him to be even more generous to them than his own wife? If this were true, then the Bordens would not have been living at 92 Second Street; they would have been living on ‘the hill’ with all of the modern conveniences that money could buy, as well as, leading a lavish life style that fulfilled every wish that his daughter’s desired.

[twinsrwe]

You have basically asked the following question twice:

… I wonder, if the killer was not Lizzie, why was Abby killed as well? For what reason did she merit such a horrible death?

It’s obvious that the killer despised Abby, and they were horn-mad. I have always believed that Abby was the primary target, due to the number of blows she received vs. the number of blows Andrew received. Granted the killer had more time to hack away at Abby, but if an intruder were the killer, that person would not have KNOWN if someone would come in during their vicious attack on Abby. However, if Lizzie were the killer, then she knew exactly where everyone was during the time that Abby was killed.

[debbiediablo]

...
Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

...

What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought.

Yes, Franz. Regardless of who killed them, I agree that Andrew's caring for Abby was based, in part, on loyalty.

[debbiediablo]

...
Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

...

What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought.

Yes, excellent point Franz. Regardless of who killed them, I agree that Andrew's caring for Abby was based, in part, on loyalty.

[debbiediablo]

...
Thank you, Franz. Good question, and answer you have here. I agree with you, Andrew was a good husband.

...

What if Andrew traited his second wife so kindly because of nothing else but that she knew some terrible secret of him and kept silent? Is it possible that under Andrew's kindness was hiden his...fear? Just a thought.

Yes, Franz. Regardless of who killed them, I agree that Andrew's caring for Abby was based, in part, on loyalty. Perhaps she did know his secrets, was privy to information that would've tarnished his reputation had it become common knowledge. Secrets can be something so heinous that it holds the potential to destroy an entire family or, more likely, something less damaging but still grist for the gossip mill. I'm inclined to agree with Twins that it wasn't on the heinous end of the continuum, but Andrew quite likely engaged in some nefarious business dealings and would have appreciated a wife who didn't criticize or pontificate...and didn't have mouth like a water spigot when at the dressmaker.

Oops. We experienced a burp in the online connection and somehow my incomplete post ended up posted.

[Lee]

Lizzie got her trip abroad.

is there ANY EVIDENCE that Andrew actually paid for the trip or did Lizzie pay for her own trip out of the $2500 she got for her 1/2 of the house the girls re-sold back to their father??

[Lee]

Lizzie got her trip abroad.

is there ANY EVIDENCE that Andrew actually paid for the trip or did Lizzie pay for her own trip out of the $2500 (todays value approx $62k)she got for her 1/2 of the house the girls re-sold back to their father??

[Lee]

...In fact, I think it's (incest) probable but not provable..

Yes, I agree. Meanwhile, I think some facts might be suggestive. For exemple:

1. Emma never got married.

2. When Sarah died, Emma was 12 (Lizzie 3). Could we say ... a "dangerous" age?

3. Bridget --- even though she had less work to do than many other servants, and was decently payed, and was in good relations with Abby --- wanted to leave the house. Was it possible that Andrew did any avance to her but was refused?

4. Emma was more closer to uncle John before the murder occured. Was it possible that she, being molested by her father, took uncle John as her father figure?

Certainly, all these don't prove nothing. But they might demosntrate that the incest theory is not impossible.

I agree with all of your post, Franz, and in particular with the point you make about Bridget. For some reason she wanted to leave what was a cushy job for an immigrant female in 1892 Fall River. She was well paid (commensurate with factory work) had Thursday afternoon and Sunday off AND Abby took care of the master suite and the guest room, and the sisters took care of their own bedrooms. No doubt this arrangement still kept Bridget busy, but not nearly so busy as a lot of maids in those days. And not nearly as backbreaking and mind numbing as factory employment. She even had the freedom to take a nap before lunch. Yet Bridget wanted to leave. Plus, her employer (and no one will convince me that Andrew allowed Abby to hire and supervise the maid without his input...not likely for man who demonstrated a rigid and controlling behavior in all other aspects of his life, particularly those involving money and even whether possibly tainted food should be served again or thrown out)...Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

No need to wonder. We women know when a man goes overboard in gifts/ money etc it's usually with strings attached. And 99% of the time it's sexual expectations. Did Andrew tap the maid? Most likely. Did uncle John think he was entitled as well to be serviced? No doubt. Maybe Abby was trying to shield Brigit to keep her from leaving, and Uncle John was moved from the attic room to the 2 nd floor. You think Uncle John didn't sneak into Brigits room in the attic? And Abby and Andrew could hear it as their room was directly below!!

[Lee]

... Andrew was very cautious, bordering on stingy, with money in all other aspects of life. This is the man who would raise his tenant's rent the moment he heard they got a raise. I am not saying Andrew's financial habits were beyond the norm for that period in time. But I am saying his somewhat generous treatment of the family maid was out of character. And I wonder why?

I agree, Debbie, Andrew's generosity of Bridget's wages does seem to be out of character for him. Just a thought...

If I recall correctly, Bridget wanted to leave a couple of times, but Abby talked her into staying. Perhaps Andrew's generosity regarding Bridget's wages, was due to Abby's influence over her husband. (We know that when it came to Abby's wishes, Andrew was more than generous. The Whitehead house is an excellent example.) I believe Andrew did whatever it took to please his wife.

Would Andrew kick his nasty rude daughters out to keep Abby happy? After all she now had a house, she could leave. Wonder if they had this convo the night they were sick? Abby was convinced they were being poisoned. Did she blame Lizzie and tell Andrew she had to go ? Did Andrewt agree with Abby and say he would kick her out in the next couple days? Did Lizzie with her big ear up to the keyhole hear this? Was this the straw that stirred the murder drink?