Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Shelley- Great pictures I love the view from the Churchhill house, that is about as clear a view as you can get. Going to check out your lattice picture now. Thank You once again!!!

You know, Bobbie, playing around with the contrasts on these old photos, that area under the front fence,looks a lot like BRICKING doesn't it. We have thought cement, timbers, railroad ties, etc. but with the contrast adjusted I see regular rectangular shapes.

I will be heading up to Fall River for the weekend in about 3 hours Bobbie, so if there is anything you need a photo of, let me know. We all plan to go see that Lizzie/Hetty Green play in New Bedford tomorrow night. Tonight we have another group of fun gals from the nursing home spending the night.
I hope to see some more progress across the street at the old bus station.

Bobbie,

Just for the record - at the time of the murders the well was not operational and was filled in.

(No, I'm not suggestng you fill in the model well to be realistic - that would be carrying things a bit too far!)

BRICKING!!!!!!!!
OH NO I just got it changed to granite.

I cant tell one way or the other, but I do see the squares you are talking about.

Shall I change it to brick????? Would that be the common brick color or more of the white concrete type bricks?

Len said cement last week- but then he has not seen the enhanced photo -I'll show it to him tonight.

Shelley @ Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:58 am wrote:I will be heading up to Fall River for the weekend in about 3 hours Bobbie, so if there is anything you need a photo of, let me know. We all plan to go see that Lizzie/Hetty Green play in New Bedford tomorrow night. Tonight we have another group of fun gals from the nursing home spending the night.
I hope to see some more progress across the street at the old bus station.

Shelley cant think of anything I need a picture of but you are so sweet to ask. Well maybe some pictures of that foundation out front if there is anything left of it. And it is not to cold
That play sounds awesome. Hetty and Andrew should have hooked up, they seem perfect for each other.
Have fun at the house, geesh I wish I could be there......

The *birds-eye-view* was a good shot to show Bobbie, Shell!

The Borden lot had two addresses tho, so maybe it was larger than Churchill's after all.
Sure wish that Churchill house was still extant!

I figured out later that I was describing where Tom was about the time of the murder, when he was describing the lattice work- and you were referring to when he took the carriage across the street and where he was when he heard about the affray. Thanks.

Here is the house with granite replacing the timbers. Has new climbing rosebush, front steps and cart with horses. Thanks for all the pictures and links etc etc..... they were a tremendous help.

Great job, Bobbie,

What materials did you use for the house - very realistic

Thanks!
The house is made out of plastric/stryene and thin strips of wood mainly. The roof is cardboard with roofing decal on it. The drapes were handcrafted with a heavy duty shop towel. The shutters, window frames, fencing, figures and trees were bought. I used sand over the plastic steps to make it look like concrete. The rosebush is electrical wire covered in green lichen and red candle wax for roses.

That is so cool!
You could be on your way to a *Clay-mation* re-enactment!
I thought that because of the apparent movement- you did a good job!

Another angle

Do you consider it finished? Do you want bars on some cellar windows?
Just FYI: There were bars on all the cellar windows except 2:
The front north west window by the street, and the one in the back, north east side.
If you are looking at the front door, it would be first cellar window on the left, and the one in the rear to the left of the cellar door.

Here is a picture of the bars. They are on the outside of the window, it looks like (thank goodness!) . This was taken by Stef of the area covered by the Leary Press, outside the kitchen.

Bobbie, it's gets better each time we see it. Nice job!

Strictly for accuracy's sake, the window to the left of the rose bush was not a real window and therefore the shutters would be closed. The area behind this faux window would be the front stairs.

Just close the shutters Bobbie- and it will be perfection! The false window was put in for symmetry-typical in Greek Revival architecture.

[quote="Kat @ Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:46 am"]Do you consider it finished? Do you want bars on some cellar windows?
Just FYI: There were bars on all the cellar windows except 2:
The front north west window by the street, and the one in the back, north east side.
If you are looking at the front door, it would be first cellar window on the left, and the one in the rear to the left of the cellar door.

Here is a picture of the bars. They are on the outside of the window, it looks like (thank goodness!) . This was taken by Stef of the area covered by the Leary Press, outside the kitchen.


I did not know the Second Street house had bars on their windows. Knew Maplecroft did. I dont think they would be visible on the little cellar windows so I can skip em, I think!
I need to finish it up or at least take a break, I may throw some grass on it and call it done. I keep saying that and then something else comes along. I have an old Victorian kit I got for Christmas and wanting to get started on that one. The instructions for the kit told me to look up a book on painted ladies for a color scheme. I may post the picture just to see if it looks like any other houses in Fall River.

Harry- Geesh cant believe I did not catch that fake window. Will get that fixed. Thanks

Shelley- Did you show Len the enhanced picture of the timber/granite/bricks? And how was the When Hetty met Lizzie play?

Len thinks they may be granite cobbles. These in the photo have been at the house ever since I can remember and may be original. These may be the granite "bricks" we see in the old photo under the fence. These were formerly used in the driveway and driveway apron but torn up during the 2005 renovation.

LeeAnn went to the play and hopefully will give a review. It was so bitterly cold I couldn't face the wind at 8 p.m. It was a minimal set, just Lizzie and Hetty sitting around a table in costume. Lizzie was portrayed as "angry". Afterward the writer said she had studied the case for years and went on to tell how Bridget was paid off by Jennings and returned to Ireland, buying a farm with the money. Hmmmm- when questioned she responded "Oh, I must check my notes". There were other errors as well. But I did snap some photos Saturday morning.

Under the front fence:

The cement foundation curb right up against the front foundation- probably to control leaks in the cellar. Also looks as if the front foundation has been coated with a sealer,

Shelley- Thanks again for the pictures. I love that picture of what may be the original granite bricks.

Does this house look like any in Fall River or surrounding areas?
It is my next project and thought if it resembled any houses in the area then I would model it like one of them. Kind of interesting as the instructions tell me to look in a book on Painted Ladies for the color scheme. I would not even know what a painted lady was if not for this forum.

I also found some information on the paving of the streets in Fall River while looking for further information on the police and fire departments at the time of the murders. It took me awhile to find the correct thread in which to post it. I remembered the question being raised as to whether or not Second Street was paved at the time of the murders, just not which thread it was posed in. The information provides details on which streets were paved under each consecutive mayor until some time after the murders.


History of Fall River / prepared under the direction of a committee of prominent citizens appointed by His Honor Mayor John T. Coughlin by Henry M. Fenner, A. B., assisted by Benjamin Buffinton. -- New York : F. T. Smiley Publishing Co., 1906.
364 p. : ill., ports. ; 28 cm.
Contents:

And the correct chapter being:

Chapter VI. Progress Since 1880: Population More Than Doubles. Continued Mill Building. Public Improvements and New City Charter, p. 37-40. (882K)

http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/fulltext.htm

Thank you Missy, you are very helpful and putting the Keeley resource to great use!

Shelley @ Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:54 am wrote:You know, Bobbie, playing around with the contrasts on these old photos, that area under the front fence,looks a lot like BRICKING doesn't it. We have thought cement, timbers, railroad ties, etc. but with the contrast adjusted I see regular rectangular shapes.

I found in my article in The Hatchet, June/July 2005, pg. 35, this description which agrees with Shelley about the low wall in front having been made from Granite:

"According to a news item in Rebello from the Evening Standard, 31 January 1961, entitled 'Lizzie'd Find Old Home Familiar,' John McGinn's mother was the source of the information about the use of the building next door and the house itself. She was resident at that time on the second floor [of #92 Second Street]. Her description was that 'Cement and tar replace the old lawn, and a printing shop clicks, clanks and whirs where a pear tree once bore fruit...If you stand in front of the old house you would see the holes in the low granite wall where the iron fence was once secured.' "

Judging from the color and texture of the cobbles, as a geologist I would hazard an educated guess that they are Fall River granite.

Yes- makes sense- probably a low granite block wall like those granite cobbles above. Good- ONE mystery solved.

Wow you guys are amazing. Great find Kat!!!
Will get some new pictures posted soon. I did some corrections and more landscaping details.

But it doesn't look like an "iron fence" so I'm still wondering about that. Maybe she is referring to the fence along the Churchill property line?

I have another question. In one pic that shows the Kelly side, there looks to be something inside the Borden low front fence like a privacy liner? But I don't see it in other views.
Is it across the street?

I "blew it up" in photoshop- it is two pieces of plywood lining the fence on the back side.

I may be totally wrong but I always took that to be the fence across the street in front of the orchard near the Miller/Bowen house. That fence was exactly opposite the yard south of the Borden house.

That fence appears to me to run behind the tree just to the left of the Borden house. That would be impossible if the fence was in the yard.

Am I seeing things as usual?

I first thought it was in the Borden yard but I'm leaning toward it being across the street- mostly because I don't see it in another view. But then, I can't see the tops of the posts of the Borden decorative fence thru it.
I do need the input. Thanks you guys!

OH I Forgot! This is the picture with the *FACE* isn't it?
(I borrowed your blow-up Shell).




This looks just like my deceased neighbor!

Yes, I noticed that "face"- creepy, huh? In fact the whole thing is creepy- the ghostly pickets of the Borden fence are clearly behind this long rectangular "covering". First I wondered if it were cheesecloth or muslin-sometimes we used to line fences to keep little rodents and birds out of the blueberries and asparagus beds. But the Bordens did not have a veggie garden as far as I know. It may very well be simply a photographic glitch, smear, processing issue, smudge, streak of chemical, reflected light, bleaching or fading of the original etc. because it is surely on the BACKSIDE of the Borden fence, not in front of it or across the street. Love that face though!

Okay- tell me I have not finally lost my marbles. I cropped and enlarged the area in front of the sitting room window to see if that dark mass was a vine or trellis or something vegetative. If you look dead center, don't YOU see a misty form of a woman with a bun, long skirt, even shoes, and right over the window I see a handle and a sharp large hatchet. Woooo! If you can't see it, then I am on my way to the Taunton Asylum- nothing was retouched or photoshopped. The blade of the hatchet is about a little over halfway up right over the window pane- her feet just below the sill.

Harry @ Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:43 pm wrote:I found a reference to Second St. It's by none other than the guru of Fall River history himself, Neilson Caplain. It appeared in one of his articles on Andrew's last walk in the October 1998 LBQ:

"... The old man's mind wandered. He thought about the street on which he had lived for twenty-seven years since moving from his father's house on Ferry Street. His mind's eye envisioned the changes to the street from a country lane, to rutted road, and finally, to a paved (or cobblestone) thoroughfare. He remembered that the street was once graced by stately homes and shaded gardens. Alas, for the changes that took place over the years! Stores, shops and no less than seven stables replaced home and garden near his home. ..."

Shelley, in the photo you posted I believe that is snow. It is also probably snow in this one:

While the falling leaves suggest autumn, I think the whiteness is just plain dust on the dirt roads. Dirt, or cobble stones, gave the best traction to horses. The walking man does not have an overcoat. The darker spots near the gutter is the undisturbed dirt.

When does FR get their first snow? November?

It's SNOW.

It's also a wooden fence in front of the Borden house, not metail railings like Mrs. McGinn said.
Har, do you have any pictures of the House thru time that might show a metal fence in front?

I've never seen a metal fence. About the closest to it is this partial photo which shows what looks like a low wire fence. I'm no expert on cars but the one in the driveway looks in the 1940's or maybe even earlier. Any car experts here?

Nice view of the Churchill house.

I captured that same image, Harry (from an e-bay listing) -- and have it entered as 'circa 1945' which must be how it was described in the listing.

The car looks older than that to me, too. I'd say it was late '30's.

That's gotta be it! Yay!
Those do look like metal posts stuck in the *granite.*

The McGinns moved in in 1948.

BTW: There's no shutters!

My guess would be c. 1945, Harry.

My boss is a car guy and he said:

Somewhere around 1935-37 I would guess...probably a Packard?

I love that picture!!!!!

Harry @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:50 pm wrote:I've never seen a metal fence. About the closest to it is this partial photo which shows what looks like a low wire fence. I'm no expert on cars but the one in the driveway looks in the 1940's or maybe even earlier. Any car experts here?

Nice view of the Churchill house.

Years ago I read some 'old car guides' that had pictures of various brands. Your library could have these books.

The lack of a trunk on that car says the late 1920 to early 1930s.
Cars then had a fold-down rack where a trunk could be tied down. No internal trunk like since the 1930s.

My Dad's 1937 Dodge(?) had a trunk on it. (As I remember from snapshots.)

That film w/ Tom Hanks as a 1930s killer showed rear seats could be lifted to store stuff.

My guess was for the picture; I have a copy in my flile labeled, "circa 1945," I neglected to indicate the source of the dating.

As regards the car, I think 1935-40 is a fair estimate.

When was the Churchill residence razed?

william @ Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:50 pm wrote:My guess was for the picture; I have a copy in my flile labeled, "circa 1945," I neglected to indicate the source of the dating.

As regards the car, I think 1935-40 is a fair estimate.

When was the Churchill residence razed?

Thanks Diana and William for the info on the photo. That car does look late 30's.

The Churchill house suffered heavy fire damage on June 1, 1961. Rebello (page 44) says it was destroyed by that fire.

The last of the pictures for awhile.

Another view

one more