Andrew at the Side Door

[Curryong]

It's odd that Abby should say 'they', and odder still that Phoebe didn't ask "Who has taken your key?" Maybe Phoebe Bowen was so used to the goings on in that odd household that she didn't need to ask but it's frustrating for the rest of us! Or maybe she did ask and just didn't get a reply! I can't see Andrew and Lizzie forcing Abby into giving up her front door key, unless one of them had misplaced theirs and promised to go to a locksmith to replace it immediately in which case she may have handed it over for the day.

If Andrew was indeed reading legal or bank documents, I agree, they would have been placed in the safe upstairs when Andrew went up to his bedroom. I've never had a wood stove so I can't say about what burns well in them.

Wouldn't Lizzie or Emma have told Jennings about the key business and a specific enemy of the family after Lizzie's arrest? That was hardly the time to remain silent. Somewhere in the depths of my memory I have a recollection of Lizzie saying that Abby had 'lost her key' some days before the murders. If the family were living in that sort of fear surely they'd just have the locks changed?

[irina]

At the beginning of this thread someone said Abby had lost her key but it looks like the only semi-official story is what she told Phebe. Possibly it had an innocent explanation.

Come to think of it the old kitchen cook stoves had a small door to stick wood into. (Out west we don't use a lot of coal.) I don't know how a coal stove works. Considering the small doors I remember on the wood stoves, paper used to ignite the fire would best be introduced as a twist or a cylinder. If one tried to cram in a handful I think one would get burned fingers. Too, if Lizzie wasn't real adept at using the stove~I don't see her as a domestic goddess~she may have been a bit timid about sticking in paper.

[regofam]

Incidentally, the police couldn't get the safe open and had to call in someone from out of town to fix it!

According to a story in the New York Herald, investigators tried to get the safe open on Aug. 11 and an "expert" from Boston finally succeeded on Aug. 12. They did not find anything of value toward solving the case.

I have long wondered why they had so much trouble opening Andrew's safe - was it a combination lock? If it was a keyed lock, they either couldn't find the key, or it wouldn't work. Curious, either way. The newspaper story called it "a simple old fashioned lock."

Upon doing a quick search, Curryong (in "Andrew's Club and Home Security") implied that a key to the safe was found in Andrew's pocket, and I think I saw that some other place, too. Then why did they have to hire what sounds like a locksmith to open the safe?

Dr. Bowen first retrieved "a bunch of keys" from the sitting room, so Mrs. Churchill and Bridget could go upstairs to get a sheet. Had they been in Andrew's pocket? He went back into the sitting room and got the correct single key from the mantle. Was the safe key among the bunch, or was it a separate key?

The thought occurs that if Lizzie could have gotten her hands on the safe key, she could have tried to find a will. But if Andrew kept the key in his pocket, it would not have been possible for her to get at it, either before (inaccessible) or after (no time) his death.

In short, the stubborn safe and the mysterious key are a dead-end.

[Curryong]

There seem to be a lot of disappearing keys in the Borden case, and keys and locks in general! Maybe because it was an old-fashioned lock on an old safe there was a knack to opening it that Andrew knew (obviously) but the police didn't? (We had a lock on our so-called safety door like that once.)

I'll have to go back and check, but I've a horrible feeling that the ring of keys Bowen handled first before getting the correct key for Bridget and Mrs Churchill came from Andrew's pockets, which meant he would have been handling perhaps moving Andrew's body a bit. He must have replaced them because a ring of keys was among the items handed over to Dr Dolan by the undertaker's assistant later that day, after he'd stripped the bodies.

[regofam]

He must have replaced them because a ring of keys was among the items handed over to Dr Dolan by the undertaker's assistant later that day, after he'd stripped the bodies.

Perhaps not. It's possible that anything removed from Andrew's pockets was placed on a nearby table or some other place, and Dr. Dolan was verbally informed of where they came from. But you could be right ... They didn't seem too squeamish about handling the bodies. I still have a hard time knowing that the bodies stayed in the dining room from Thursday to Saturday. (They were apparently transferred to the sitting room for the funeral.) Anyone needing to go from one end of the house to the other either would have to pass by the bodies (draped and/or in coffins, I hope) or walk past the bloody couch. I hope they ate in the kitchen.

I wonder why they didn't place the bodies in the parlor. Wasn't that the usual place for laying out bodies in the Victorian Age?

[irina]

Something to think about "they" taking Abby's key; Lizzie had been away & came back recently and was planning to return to Marion soon. What if she left some luggage in Marion & her house keys were in the luggage there? Might Lizzie have worked on Andrew who worked on Abby (thus "they") to give Lizzie Abby's key until Lizzie left again? Could make sense and not be sinister. On the other hand if there was a plot to kill Andrew while Abby was locked out of the house...

The thing that bugs me no end about the bodies in the home is...um...I don't know how good embalming was in those days. And whether or not it was the hottest days of the year or not, it was warm. I imagine flies were all over, especially with the streets full of horse droppings, and privies in most yards. I mean, if a barn cat gets killed on the road and the body isn't found for 48 hours in warm weather, it isn't pretty. So the whole scenario of those days before the funeral is horrific. Then the bodies were in a vault for a while. The whole thing is beyond thinking about.

[debbiediablo]

Maybe Andrew kept the documents with him because he needed Abby's signature.

[Curryong]

He may have had documents downstairs but wouldn't he have placed them in the safe or at least behind lock and key in his bedroom before he lay down to snooze?

irina, although Lizzie talked later about returning to Marion she only actually visited her friends there for a day. This was during her little stay with the Pooles at New Bedford, I think, so it's doubtful she would have been carting luggage about from place to place. She left New Bedford on Tuesday July 26th after visiting the Tripps that day, in order to return to Fall River.

The visit to Marion took place on the Monday (presumably) as the Fall River Herald noted her as among the ladies staying at Marion. However, this sort of social pages stuff was often posted by the people concerned to the newspaper ahead of time.There's an erroneous note in the newspaper about Lizzie being among the ladies entertained by gentlemen yachtsmen from the town, on the Tuesday. She can't have been among them (unless Rebello and Augusta Tripp got their dates wrong) as she and the Pooles were visiting the Tripps on that day.

[debbiediablo]

I don't think he would've taken them to the safe had he wanted Abby's signature when she arrived home. I think he would've laid them aside to wait for her arrival.

[irina]

I strongly believe if Andrew had papers for Abby to sign, he would have put them into the safe and any signing would have been done in his office area. If the papers were sensitive in any way I believe he would have done this.

Valid points about Lizzie's travels. Even so she could have left her house key behind in a garment pocket. The more I think of it I like my idea about why "they" may have "taken" Abby's key. It could also explain keeping the front door bolted during the day as I would imagine a missing key would lead to paranoia although I wouldn't insist on my last observation. There could be other reasons the door was bolted, sinister and innocent.

Bridget said the key had been left in the lock. With the old fashioned locks this was done. I suppose it could also be done today, to prevent entry. This implies to me nobody touched that door that morning. Was the key left in the hole till someone~Lizzie or Emma~went out, taking the key with them? If the key was traditionally in the hole, what happened to it when someone went out? If Emma for example went out and took it with her, how did Lizzie get in? Did each have their own key in addition to one that could have been left in the key hole at night?

[Curryong]

My feeling is, though I don't know for sure, that each of them had a key. I know Lizzie spent a lot of time in her room but when she did go out she seems to have pleased herself about her comings and goings.

We don't know enough about Emma's social life to say, except, rather surprisingly, she appears to have been a horse rider. She accompanied Uncle John on horseback to Swansea on a previous visit.

If she, and perhaps Lizzie, rode horses occasionally they might have gone out on day trips.They wouldn't want to be reliant, as grown women, on Andrew and Abby's keys, surely.

[irina]

I agree with everything you say, Curryong. It does make sense in addition that Emma [and her key] were on vacation. Lizzie [and her key] had been on vacation. Where better to misplace stuff than when travelling? Truly none of us know about any of this but Abby's comment to Phebe would make a lot of sense if Lizzie had temporarily lost her key or left it in Marion, and that Lizzie and Andrew [they] prevailed upon Abby to let Lizzie use her key until Lizzie returned to Marion.

Alternatively we could say Lizzie lost her key or an unsavoury friend of hers stole her key and a criminal element gained access to the house. HOWEVER we have the triple locks to account for. Even Andrew couldn't get inside his own house!

What's the chance [Franz will love this] someone came to the front door to pick up something Morse left in the guest room [a favourite, decorative hatchet perhaps]? Abby lets him in & triple locks the door and escorts him upstairs to collect the forgotten item. Something happens. Maybe he makes a sexual advance and Abby smacks him...? That could account for Lizzie thinking someone came to the door that morning, but in the end I find that part of her story unconvincing.

[Curryong]

Franz, Franz, Hello, Where Are You!!

[debbiediablo]

I agree with everything you say, Curryong. It does make sense in addition that Emma [and her key] were on vacation. Lizzie [and her key] had been on vacation. Where better to misplace stuff than when travelling? Truly none of us know about any of this but Abby's comment to Phebe would make a lot of sense if Lizzie had temporarily lost her key or left it in Marion, and that Lizzie and Andrew [they] prevailed upon Abby to let Lizzie use her key until Lizzie returned to Marion.

Alternatively we could say Lizzie lost her key or an unsavoury friend of hers stole her key and a criminal element gained access to the house. HOWEVER we have the triple locks to account for. Even Andrew couldn't get inside his own house!

What's the chance [Franz will love this] someone came to the front door to pick up something Morse left in the guest room [a favourite, decorative hatchet perhaps]? Abby lets him in & triple locks the door and escorts him upstairs to collect the forgotten item. Something happens. Maybe he makes a sexual advance and Abby smacks him...? That could account for Lizzie thinking someone came to the door that morning, but in the end I find that part of her story unconvincing.

Maybe the person at the door was looking for Lizzie...."Fall River Axe and Hatchet Sharpening – We Pickup and Deliver"

Perhaps Lizzie did lose her key while traveling. From personal experience, losing small items while traveling is far too easy to do. (I took off my wedding rings with almost two carats of diamonds that were a 25th Anniversary gift that included my first engagement diamond and my Mom's 25th Anniversary diamond and laid them on the hotel heater to go swimming...forgot to put them back on. They were gone forever when I finally missed them and called from home.) It wouldn't seem odd for Abby to give Lizzie her key so Lizzie could let herself in when visiting Alice in the evening. During the day, Bridget would be home to let Abby in.

Is it correct that Andrew relocked the door behind him on his August 4th return? As much as I can't see how Lizzie didn't do this, the obsession of ALL of the family, not just Lizzie but Andrew and Abby, also, about Someone Threatening Them gives me pause. Although I'm not convinced Franz has exactly the correct scenario, this does make me wonder if there wasn't an outside threat (and I do not mean Morse...I mean truly beyond the family) of someone or some group that Andrew undercut in a business deal. He was honest...and merciless. Sort of like his killer(s).

[irina]

It bothers me that Lizzie locked her bedroom door all the time unless it was too hot. Somewhere it is written that it was thought Andrew did a lot of business from the home and strangers or customers came regularly. I know some argue that the locked doors have to do with sexual abuse but I don't see locked doors in a family home as an absolute cure for that sort of thing. When Lizzie said she didn't lock her doors when she needed a cross draft I get the idea her locked bedroom was a precaution, not a defense. I wonder if there was more mischief done in the home than we know about.

What would Fall River have been like during the Civil War? Would that have been a time of higher crime that helped set Andrew's personal habits? I know FR is on a river, but how big is that river? Is there any amount of shipping in and out of there? Sailors? There were a number of immigrants to the Fall River area. Was there a general fear of the Portuguese, Irish, French Canadians? Was there a reasonable fear? Do we suppose had the Bordens moved to a ritzier neighborhood, they would have continued so lock everything so tight?

[Curryong]

That robbery of your rings is horrible, debbie. When sentimental things get taken that's the worst.

I've never suffered from a burglary but something did happen a few years ago that had a bit of a comical aspect to it. After a European holiday we were in Amsterdam before returning to Australia. For reasons best known to himself my son put his key ring that he'd brought with him on holiday, in a bunch of brochures the hotel provided. (Why he thought any hotel staff would be interested in his keys I don't know!) We all went downstairs to eat then came up to collect our luggage. While the others took the suitcases down to the hotel lobby to wait for the taxi I did my usual last obsessive look round the rooms for misplaced shoes etc.

David had left these papers on his bedside table so I quickly shoved them in the waste paper bin! In the rush to get to the airport nothing was said. However, quite a lot was said when we came back to our respective houses. David was jumping up and down but I wasn't taking the blame! Luckily he'd left his spare house key with a neighbour or he would have been sleeping at my place that night (a Sunday.) Our houses were near to each other. So he had to go get car keys etc re-cut. Serves him right!!

I'm going to re-check Bridget's testimony, to see if I misread. Even if I didn't that could have just meant that Andrew had got into the habit of pushing that spring lock back into position when he came in through the front door.

[Curryong]

I have read that people of Irish descent congregated in large numbers in New Bedford in the mid 19th century so I would guess that would be the same for Fall River, which was quite prosperous,though small, before and during the Civil War, and large and very prosperous after it. (It profited from the Civil War, textiles for Union Army uniforms etc. plus port facilities). The Portuguese coming to the US in large numbers was a new phenomenon in the 1880's and 1890's I believe. I just think French Canadians were regarded as foreigners with strange accents and usually ROMAN CATHOLIC! I've never read that they were feared.

The port was always important to Fall River. It was designated a 'port of entry' (presumably into the US for migrants and goods) quite early in its history. There was also a luxury steamboat service that sailed regularly to and from Manhattan. The Borden sisters probably used that service, which continued until the 1930's.

The Irish had been looked down on since they arrived on the East Coast of the U.S in post Famine days in the 1840's. Most of the Portuguese were young males who took labouring type jobs from the locals, so I don't imagine they were too popular, especially with their dark 'foreign' looks. However, if a lot of 'sinister looking foreigners' were coming to the house in search of vinegar etc I think Bridget would have definitely said "That's it! I'm off!"

Andrew would have had his occasional times of business with colleagues (probably conducted in the parlour) while neighbours and others in the know would have known Andrew's hours of 'business', eggs, vinegar, pickles, were between 11am and 12noon, probably on certain days. He would have sold from the kitchen. Strangers wouldn't have been wandering all over the house.

I've never read that Fall River was a high crime area in the 1890's. I stand corrected if I'm wrong, but Fall River was at the height of its prosperity then. Second St and nearby had gone a bit down-market since 'the girls' youth, as it had become a mixed commercial/ residential precinct. Lizzie was supposed to have seen a man running around the house once when she returned home late one night and I'm sure she and Emma tried to persuade their father to move to a nicer area. However, if it was a high crime area then it's surprising that Dr Bowen, a smart and well-known doctor, would have remained, or Mrs Churchill and her mother. I don't think any recent burglaries had been reported.

[debbiediablo]

That robbery of your rings is horrible, debbie. When sentimental things get taken that's the worst.

I've never suffered from a burglary but something did happen a few years ago that had a bit of a comical aspect to it. After a European holiday we were in Amsterdam before returning to Australia. For reasons best known to himself my son put his key ring that he'd brought with him on holiday, in a bunch of brochures the hotel provided. (Why he thought any hotel staff would be interested in his keys I don't know!) We all went downstairs to eat then came up to collect our luggage. While the others took the suitcases down to the hotel lobby to wait for the taxi I did my usual last obsessive look round the rooms for misplaced shoes etc.

David had left these papers on his bedside table so I quickly shoved them in the waste paper bin! In the rush to get to the airport nothing was said. However, quite a lot was said when we came back to our respective houses. David was jumping up and down but I wasn't taking the blame! Luckily he'd left his spare house key with a neighbour or he would have been sleeping at my place that night (a Sunday.) Our houses were near to each other. So he had to go get car keys etc re-cut. Serves him right!!

I'm going to re-check Bridget's testimony, to see if I misread. Even if I didn't that could have just meant that Andrew had got into the habit of pushing that spring lock back into position when he came in through the front door.

I would've happily given the person who lifted them the entire value in cash to get them back. Of course, they were insured so maybe the offer isn't quite as generous as it sounds. For a long time I didn't even want to replace them. Right now I'm wearing my mother-in-law's beautiful tiny solitaire in her very worn setting that is 73 years old. I mourned, but we are replacing them for our 40th...the setting is already picked out. The loss my Mom's diamond is something I'll never totally forgive myself for.

[irina]

I'm sorry for your loss too, Debbie.

Right after my husband died I had a burglar who took many of his things when I was away. Later the guy came back for seconds and a friend and I caught him. He was a meth addict. Since I was away when he burglarized he had a lot of time to go through everything in the house and he picked up some gold jewellery of mine. Fortunately he was like a pack rat and he discarded the gold when he picked up shiny (but broken) pieces of costume jewellery. The guy was a loser!

[Curryong]

Yes, a friend once, years ago, put her bag down in a cafe at a food hall where she was having a coffee. Her bag contained some 1930's jewellery of her grandmother's she'd just had cleaned. These were pieces that had been left to her and as a treat she'd sometimes been allowed to wear as a child. One was a scottie dog brooch with ruby chip eyes that had been especially made for her grandmother. Of course she rushed back after a few minutes, but it was gone.

And you do mourn, as these things are irreplaceable. For years my friend looked in the windows of pawnbrokers/ cash and carry places, but no luck. However, you can't beat yourself up about it too much. We all have memory lapses. I'm glad that you are having a replacement made, even though it won't be quite the same.