Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Wednesday evening
Lizzie reaches up to remove her hat, hears voices in the sitting room, decides to go upstairs without saying Good Night.

Stretching out on her bed, Lizzie leans into the keyhole, as Andrew speaks to Abby

She hears every word clearly from her pillow

The voices carried out the window and wafted into Lizzie's bedroom earlier in the evening.

An unseen hand closes the guestroom shutter shortly after 9 on August 4th

There's water and wood ash in the cellar. . . .

The bodies laid out north to south in the diningroom, stare with unseeing eyes. . .

Abby's view from under the bed

Pallbearers take position on each side of the ivy and rose bedecked coffins in front of the fireplace, mourners look on from the parlor and front hall

The officer spies something rolled up under Emma's closet door.

Sunday morning Emma steps out into the hallway from the sinkroom to see what Lizzie is doing at the stove

These pictures are so creative! Thanks so much! WoW!
Wait till everyone sees them!

Shelley @ Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:20 pm wrote:A possible sequence for August 3, 1892
Uncle John from his seat in the sitting room hears an arrival in the front hall about 9 p.m.

The door was open to the hall according to Morse at the preliminary hearing:

Q. Do you know, Mr. Morse, whether Miss Lizzie was at the house at that time, or not, when you went in?
A. At night? I think not, I do not know. I heard the door open and shut afterwards.

Q. Where did you sit after you got home that Wednesday night?
A. In the sitting room.

Q. Was the door into the hall open?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did the person that you heard come in the front door?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Could not you see then who it was?
A. Not from where I sat.

Q. Where did you sit?

Page 249

A. Towards that table there at the south side of the room.

Q. Which way were you facing, towards the east or the west?
A. I think my face was north.

Q. So that you could not see into the front hall at all?
A. I could not from where I sat.

Q. You simply heard somebody come in, and go upstairs?
A. That is all.

Q. Did you hear somebody in the room overhead?
A. I heard somebody after that.

Aha!! - then that makes sense. Since he did not see her , I deduced he was on the sofa with the door closed- so he must have been in the corner chair if he was by the table near the mantel, right in front of the closet which is now a book case- is this his perspective? So, who was in the other chair- and the third person must have been on the sofa.

I will have to reshoot Lizzie's Wednesday night entry this Friday- with the door open!

Can you do it in the dark with just a light left in the hall for Lizzie to come in?

Brilliant work Shelley ! BRILLIANT !!





Tracy...

Sure! Verisimilitude is just the thing! I re-shot Andrew's point of view on the sofa- this time with the door correctly closed!

Wonderful work, Shelley! It really makes the whole Borden story come to life. Thank you for sharing them with us.

That's great you closed the door. It also blocks that electric lit-up Exit sign that Harry noticed.

BTW: The testimony by Morse states that Lizzie didn't get home until 9:15 or 9:20. [Prelim, 238).

A picture will always be worth a thousand words, and the imagination will fill in the players better than actors can portray them.

Yes, those Exit signs sort of spoil the ambiance don't they? There's a great deal to be said for being absolutely alone in the house- all quiet and still. In the winter, with snow on the ground, the outside noises are blocked, and it's easier to put yourself back in time and visualize the action as it may have unfolded from room to room. Lee Ann is looking for a small table for the sitting room, a kersone lamp, and other touches which will help re-create the scene. I just got a digital camera which I am trying to figure out, and with the proper lighting with candlelight and kersosene oil lamp, I am hoping to reproduce some more authentic night shots.

I rather think Lizzie's bedroom doorknob is original. The first floor knobs have been changed to glass ones with very art deco brass back plates. Every time I put my hand on Lizzie's door, I get a little chill.

The view close up of the keyhole is inspired!!

The view under the guest room bed out to the hall from by the bureau is incredible. I mean, who would have thought to take that view other than our Shell!?

Shelley @ Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:12 pm wrote:Thanks! Hard to think of something folks here don't already know! I have many more to post later. I always wanted to do a fast moving series of point of view shots set to music- no people, no actors- just images which would tell the story . I get more from a still shot than film footage.

Hi Shelley,
I am not sure if Andrew opened his eyes to see his killer.
I am thinking he may have put his arm up to defend his face and only
had cuts and lacerations on his arm, but the crime photo had no cuts
on his body and the autopsy said there was no harm to any other part of the body which makes me believe that he was asleep when he was struck.
This is what makes the case so interesting. all the possibilities that could have occured. Makes for great discussions!

Shelley @ Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:39 pm wrote:Bridget tearing down the hall and stairs to the kitchen

I can actually visualize Bridget running down the hall!! THanks Shelley

The carpet would not come up so you'll have to unimagine the carpet in the hall part We are going to try for some night shots with oil lamp this weekend.

Do we know who was on the sofa when Lizzie came home Wednesday evening? If John was in the rocker in the corner by the fireplace, who was in the other chair and who was on the sofa? I hope Abby had the comfy chair. I always wondered why she never said goodnight. Now that I am sure the door was opened, I want to see the angles of what or who she might have seen on that sofa going upstairs and who might have seen her.

Shelley @ Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:18 am wrote:Do we know who was on the sofa when Lizzie came home Wednesday evening? If John was in the rocker in the corner by the fireplace, who was in the other chair and who was on the sofa? I hope Abby had the comfy chair. I always wondered why she never said goodnight. Now that I am sure the door was opened, I want to see the angles of what or who she might have seen on that sofa going upstairs and who might have seen her.

Couldn't find who was seated on the sofa but here's Morse's testimony at the trial (page 143+)

"Q. After you arrived in the evening at 20 minutes of nine did you and the other two remain in the sitting-room all the time until you went to bed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or until on Mrs. Borden's part she went to bed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall whether or not as a matter of positive recollection you had a light in the sitting-room that evening?
A. I don't think there was any.
Q. You don't think there was any light in the sitting-room?
A. No, sir.
Q. This was a warm evening in August?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You sat there in the sitting-room without having any artificial light?
A. I think there was no light. That is my recollection.
Q. Do you recall, Mr. Morse, whether the door leading from the sitting-room into the hall was open during the time you sat there?
A. I think it was open.
Q. You think it was?
A. I know it.
Q. Whether it was swung wide open?
A. I think it was.
Q. Do you recall whether or not there was any hall light?
A. I think there was a hall light.
Q. Now, as you sat there in the sitting-room, I understand from your answer that you were not seated so that you could see who did come up and go into the room above?
A. No, sir, I didn't. I sat in a position so I couldn't see into the hall.
Q. Do you recall in what part of the sitting-room you sat?
A. I sat near the middle, that is, more south, but the middle of the room east and west, right in front of a table that stands there.
Q. You know nothing whatever about that front door that night, about it's fastening at all, do you, after you came in?
A. I do not.
Q. You paid no attention to it?
A. No attention.
Q. You heard nothing about that to give you any information?
A. No, sir.
Q. Somebody had come in and gone up stairs, passed up, according to the sounds which you heard, into the room overhead, which was Miss Lizzie's room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall as a matter of recollection whether there was anything said by the person who came in so that you have a recollection of it?
A. I did not hear anything.
Q. You do not recollect that?
A. No, sir.
Q. This person, whoever it was, had gone up stairs before you retired?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time did you go?
A. It might have been ten or a few minutes after. The clock struck before we retired.
Q. All you know is you went up stairs and went into your room?
A. Yes, sir."

Thanks! I have a really good picture now of where he was. I would bet Andrew was on that sofa, since Andrew and John were most likely speaking mostly to each other, facing. Which left Abby in the comfy armchair across from the sofa and to the left of John. Great! Now I know how to stage this. Imagine sitting in the near-dark. In August though, at 9 p.m. it is not yet pitch dark and the glow from the hall lamp would have been eerie! oooo

Yes, I think Andrew was on the sofa too. Morse had this to say at the Preliminary (page 248)

"Q. Where did you sit?
A. Towards that table there at the south side of the room.
Q. Which way were you facing, towards the east or the west?
A. I think my face was north.
Q. So that you could not see into the front hall at all?
A. I could not from where I sat."

If he was facing north he would have been facing the sofa.

Don't know how they missed that scene in the "Legend" movie. But then again they missed Uncle John altogether. That dark room, that glow from the lamp in the hall, perhaps a creaky stair step or two - would have made a great scene.

Yes, I have no idea why they did not ask for our advice while shooting that! Honestly!! What were they thinking? I think Wednesday night is very important in the scheme of things.

Am off to purchase a kersone lamp.

I wonder if there was a full moon that night. That could explain a lack of light.
Another reason is that a light might attract eavesdroppers to their private conversation.

Or I expect Andrew was thrifty and saw no need to burn another lamp for chitchat purposes.!

I am no good at numbers- can someone tell me about Eastern Standard Time and when Daylight Savings Time started. In order to get the light right, I need to adjust for the 9:15 p.m. photo on Saturday night. I know every night from August 4 onward, I subtract one minute to the sunsetting time. But, since we turn the clocks forward in the Spring- in 1892 was it 9:15 our time now- or was it before all this clock turning forward stuff? Do I shoot the scene at 8:15 p.m. minus the 27 minutes from August and the 16 minutes from September= 43 minutes earlier> Or do I just subtract that 43 minutes from 9:15? It will make a great difference in the light.

Shelley -- Here's some stuff from an informative site on the topic: http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

"Standard time in time zones was instituted in the U.S. and Canada by the railroads on November 18, 1883. Prior to that, time of day was a local matter, and most cities and towns used some form of local solar time, maintained by a well-known clock (on a church steeple, for example, or in a jeweler's window)."

Daylight Savings "was not formally adopted in the U.S. until 1918. 'An Act to preserve daylight and provide standard time for the United States' was enacted on March 19, 1918. . . . It both established standard time zones and set summer DST to begin on March 31, 1918. Daylight Saving Time was observed for seven months in 1918 and 1919. After the War ended, the law proved so unpopular (mostly because people rose earlier and went to bed earlier than people do today) that it was repealed in 1919 with a Congressional override of President Wilson's veto. Daylight Saving Time became a local option, and was continued in a few states, such as Massachusetts and Rhode Island, and in some cities, such as New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago."


I find it interesting that less than 10 years prior to the Borden murders, standard time was non-existent and people had a fairly haphazard idea of exact time. I feel this has to account, in part, for the varying reports of time in the case.

Apparently Daylight savings time didn't come into effect until 1918.

I did find something in my files that I may have posted earlier in relation to Bence's testimony. Don't know if it helps or not but ...

Acccording to the a website showing Massachusetts weather and climate (http://www.yankeeclassic.com/ycp/other/massclim.htm) sunset in MA on August 1, 2005 was at 8:04 p.m. This is measured in Daylight Savings Time however which puts it one hour ahead of the time used in 1892. That means sunset would have been at approximately 7:05 – 7:10 that year.

So, if Bence went to the house at 8 p.m., it would have been dark. One wonders the illumination in the kitchen was like when he was making his famous ‘identification’ ?

Thanks!
Okay- this is numbers and already my head is spinning. So if Lizzie came home at 9: 15 on August 3, 1892, this Saturday I need to take 10: 15 and subtract the 43 minutes at one minute advancing on sunset per day since August 4th-I am getting 9:28 p.m. as the time to snap the photo to get the right light as was present on August 3, 1892. Yes? Now I see why Alice Russell needed a lamp when they went into the cellar!

Here's my best attempt at the Wednesday night entry by Lizzie, around 9:15 1892 time in August. It will be interesting to see who could see who!
The entry

Closing the door and pocketing the key

View straight ahead

Just a step to the left

Approaching the staircase-Andrew can see Lizzie and she can see him!

Climbing the stairs

A glance over the low rail at the top landing

John hears but sees nothing

Thanks! Those pics are so cool!!

Is that with a flash? Or just a lamp?
The foyer looks extra light or *white*.
But yes, the sitting room sofa seemed very dark! Being black in the dark as well.

It was one candle, but I think the flash reflected off the hatrack mirror. I will need to rethink that one. Still, I believe it is pretty close.What I found exciting was that the whole sofa is clearly visible to a person going upstairs and vise versa. Of course Andrew could not testify to that the next day!

More good news- that dining room closet is just perfect for a hat and jacket.

The alibi for Abby's murder- a cookie and Harper's by the stove

That closet in the front hall is a washout for a hiding place with the table leaves and the carpet sweeper. A concealed killer could never be sure someone would not turn the latch. The door has no knob inside and always pops open a crack.

Looking out from inside that closet- and not seeing very much while sweating and uncomfortable to boot!

The art deco knobs on the first floor

A seldom -seen view through the guestroom door into Lizzie's. Her bookcase would have filled this doorway.

Took me awhile to figure out what that thing on the wall over Abby's head was. Then I saw one on ebay by chance. It is a match safe- one side for fresh matches, one for used matches , with the striker in the middle. Every room would have had one.