All About Andrew

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PossumPie
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by PossumPie »

Curryong wrote:It does look most uncomfortable Possum, I agree. A couple of things, though. I don't think the couch was long enough for Andrew to have laid down full length. The couch was 7' 1" long, including those rolled arms. Andrew was 5ft 11" so it would have been a tight fit. He also had a hernia on his right side and wore a truss, so that may have caused pain.

I've always thought Andrew may have gone upstairs to put his 'cardigan' on, and his congress boots, which were more casual shoes than his outdoor boots, might have been kept in a downstairs closet.

Do hands sometimes go into spasm in death throes?
Certainly the clenched fists MAY be due to neurological trauma to the head. But taken all together, that position just doesn't add up to a comfy nap. Like I said, Being a man who wears suits, I can tell you when the jacket rides up your wrists like that it means it is uncomfortable. Crossing arms over chest or lifting them above your head can make the arms pull at your shoulders causing it. Anyone over 65 can tell you that to twist your vertebrate in such a position as in the photo will hurt. My guess is that with head on afghan/armrest and ankles up on the other arm rest, he could nap fairly comfortably. Andrew does NOT seem like the kind of gentleman to put his shoes on the furniture though. I correct my above statement, there is NOT any official testimony of Lizzie helping Andrew with his shoes/slippers. Geez, sometimes things run together with all of the contradictory statements. Anyway, At the trial Officer Harrington completely contradicted the photographic evidence he held in his hand and swore:

Q. Yes. And you discovered Mr. Borden's body there?
A. Yes, sir; on a sofa which rested on the north side of the house was the form of a man partially covered with a sheet, going from the head, the west end of the lounge, down a little below the knees. Below that black pants and a pair of laced shoes.
..........

Q. You said, speaking of Mr. Borden as he was laid upon the sofa---did he have slippers on?
A. No, sir.

Q. What kind of boots did he have on?
A. He had a laced shoe.

Q. Do you mean a low shoe?
A. No, sir.

Page 578

Q. A laced high shoe?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are pretty certain about that?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was not a congress boot?
A. No, sir.

Q. You know what I mean?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are certain about that. Have you ever seen the photograph of the body as it is presented here?
A. Not the photograph, no, sir.

Q. (Showing photograph to witness). Will you look at those shoes---your eyes are better than mine, but will you kindly tell us whether those are a correct representation?
A. Not as they impressed me, sir.

Q. Then, as you recall it, this is not correct?
A. As I recall it.

Q. Then seeing this, having this to refresh your recollection, do you change your statement?
A. No, sir.

Q. You leave it that he had on laced boots?
A. My impression was laced boots.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

I take your word for the discomfort caused, Possum. I don't believe that Lizzie helped with any part of Andrew's footwear. I'm surprised that the police officer regarded those shoes/boots as high and laced. They don't look so in the photo. And where are his socks?

Do you think he could have been peaceably reading a newspaper when he was struck?
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Re: All About Andrew

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PossumPie wrote:Something about that picture has always bothered me. His posture is unnatural. If he were laying down, he would have taken off his boots (It was reported that Lizzie said she had helped him off with his shoes, so we know it was his habit to remove them) and had his feet up. It looks like he was just preparing to lay down. his butt is right in the center of the couch. His coat sleeves and pants cuffs are all riding up, This happens when you raise your arms above your head or extend them full-out in front of you, Riding up like that is a very uncomfortable feeling which he would have remedied if he were positioned comfortably. I think he saw the killer enter, and was attempting to rise off the couch when hit. Both hands are clenched in a defensive posture suggesting he wasn't hit without warning. The boots still on also suggest he hadn't gotten comfortable in his nap-time position yet. People have suggested he was lying down with eyes closed and was hit without warning, but these observations suggest otherwise. That position of his spine would have been very uncomfortable for an elderly man...Whatever else we say, I don't believe that was the position he intended to be in for any length of time.
I totally agree and have posted bits and pieces about this...the clenched fists, the discomfort of napping in that position, the unnatural slump to the side...I'm a decade younger than Andrew and no way would I rest that way, or even sit that way. Nor would my husband who is very physically active at age 66. I'm trying to decide whether a defensive position would involve clenched fists (I can't 'feel' this when imagining an attack me) or an offensive effort. Did anyone report with bruises on face or body?
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

If perhaps he was leaning back reading a newspaper that ultimately went in the stove that might explain his posture. There are no defensive wounds, though, so he must have been caught by surprise. If the killer came around the dining room door frame, which is what the blood spatter tends to suggest would there have been much warning?
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Catbooks »

somewhere i read that his body had slumped down a bit from his originally discovered position, which makes sense when i look at the photos.

i thought lizzie did say she'd helped him off with his boots?? at the inquest, or maybe it was when she was interviewed by the police.

curryong, didn't you post somewhere not just the length of the sofa, but the length of the seating area? don't recall the dimensions now, but the seating area wasn't that long, not long enough for anyone to stretch out on, even if andrew were the type to put his feet up (and i don't think he was). so if he were in the habit of resting or napping on the sofa, it wouldn't be comfortable no matter what. that's why his position has never bothered me too much.

the clenched fists, though, they have always bothered me. they make him look like he'd *just* realized what was about to happen and started to defend himself. then, it was too late. but if his fists could have clenched as a result of the damage to his brain, well, that would explain that.

i think andrew was just resting, not actually napping.

edited to add: it is strange that our uber-observant harrington said the boots were lace-ups, not the slip-on congress boots in the photos. but i'm going to put this down to his misremembering, because it makes no sense that anyone would have removed and replaced shoes on a corpse.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

I posted it towards the top of Page 1 in this thread. The seating area was 4' 11". What is odd is that he apparently reclined in that position on a regular basis as I am sure that somewhere in John Morse's testimony he mentions it. I must check. I'm discounting Dr Bowen as he doesn't seem to have ministered to Andrew and he lied about Wednesday morning when he checked on Abby and saw Andrew on the couch in jovial mood!

They are definitely non-laced boots in the photograph aren't they? One of the police (was it Allen?) said he noticed Andrew's thin delicate-looking ankles.





i
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:I posted it towards the top of Page 1 in this thread. The seating area was 4' 11". What is odd is that he apparently reclined in that position on a regular basis as I am sure that somewhere in John Morse's testimony he mentions it. I must check. I'm discounting Dr Bowen as he doesn't seem to have ministered to Andrew and he lied about Wednesday morning when he checked on Abby and saw Andrew on the couch in jovial mood!

They are definitely non-laced boots in the photograph aren't they? One of the police (was it Allen?) said he noticed Andrew's thin delicate-looking ankles.
They are certainly Congress boots. Psychologically, a person will go with their first recollection, when remembering something, often even when confronted with direct evidence that they mis-remembered.

I just don't see Andrew 'lounging comfortably' in that position. I am 49 and I tried it. I bent my spine around like that and kept my feet on the floor. I could do it-- but my lumbar vertebrata were twisted at my hips, making it uncomfortable.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

By the way, a re-post for those who were interested in the position of the dining room sofa. Civil engineer Thomas Kiernan was employed as a draftsman for the government. He was at the house on August 16th 1892 and the couch was apparently in situ. Nice for Emma!

His testimony.

It was placed against the north wall of the dining room, and almost exactly in line with the east side of the door which leads from the sitting room onto the dining room. It projected by the door just half an inch.


Oh, but Possum, you're not a stubborn old Yankee! Seriously though, I do think there is something very wrong about Andrew's posture as photographed. As photographed is the rub though, isn't it? The various doctors and police officers apparently tried not to interfere with the position of the bodies too much, but there must still have been some.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:By the way, a re-post for those who were interested in the position of the dining room sofa. Civil engineer Thomas Kiernan was employed as a draftsman for the government. He was at the house on August 16th 1892 and the couch was apparently in situ. Nice for Emma!

His testimony.

It was placed against the north wall of the dining room, and almost exactly in line with the east side of the door which leads from the sitting room onto the dining room. It projected by the door just half an inch.


Oh, but Possum, you're not a stubborn old Yankee! Seriously though, I do think there is something very wrong about Andrew's posture as photographed. As photographed is the rub though, isn't it? The various doctors and police officers apparently tried not to interfere with the position of the bodies too much, but there must still have been some.
Alas, that is the rub...We can't even believe the photos b/c people did indeed move people to some degree. It seems the deeper you look, the LESS clear things become. And BTW...I am about as stubborn a Yankee as anyone...That is why I stubbornly insist on the officer's mistake! :twisted:
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Andrew seems to have used the couch to relax on, especially when he wasn't feeling the best.

Morse's Prelim hearing Page 237, about his visit.

Q. How did you find Mr Borden's health that day?

A. He was sick, indisposed, laying on the sofa.

Unfortunately Morse wasn't asked whether Andrew actually lay down on the couch or just reclined with his feet on the floor. Dr Bowen's testimony at the trial, (Page 301-302) begins by Dr Bowen seemingly finding nothing amiss with Andrew's posture when he first saw him.

Q. Will you describe the position on the sofa?

A. He was lying with his face towards the South on his right side apparently at ease, as anyone would be if they were lying asleep.

So again we get 'lying/laying. But then, a few minutes later, after being shown the photograph of Andrew,


Q Will you be kind enough to tell us in what respect Mr Borden's position differed from that photograph, if it differed at all?

A I don't think the photograph shows the ease that is natural to a person that is asleep or lying down. I think in this case the form has sunk a little from what it was when I first saw it.


What does he mean by that? Maybe the term 'lying down' meant in the 19th century what we would call reclining rather than recumbent. Maybe Dr Bowen was being tactful about the photograph, but I think that Andrew's 'form' would have had to have sunk considerably to have been 'as anyone would be if they were lying asleep', as he had described Andrew earlier.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Yes, lying and reclining are synonymous...commonly used in the Midwest...:-)
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by twinsrwe »

I found a very interesting thread that contains information on Andrew’s Congress Boots.
lizzie_borden_father_axe_whacks.jpg
On Sat Sep 29, 2007, Kat posted: In the photo where Andrew is lying barechested and stitched on the autopsy board in the sitting room, there seems to be a sad and forlorn boot with what looks like a sock draped over it, by the sofa, on the floor, near the door to the kitchen. To me, that is a pitiful sight- more so than the body. The body is shocking, but the discarded boot is a remnant of a life recently snuffed out.
Andrew Borden's Wounds - 1.jpg
viewtopic.php?t=3121
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

So he was wearing socks! When the police officer talked about being struck by his thin little ankles I thought he mustn't have been wearing any. Thank you for that twinsrwe. By the way, poor old Andrew's torso looks reasonably fit for a man of his age, all that physical labour when he was younger, I expect.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by twinsrwe »

You're welcome, Curryong. I also thought it was interesting that Andrew was not wearing socks; like you, I didn't think he was wearing any either. Guess we both learned something here. I agree, Andrew's torso looks to be like that of a man much younger than he was.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Poor old Andrew's face, though! It just doesn't look human, what a mess. There was a photograph taken of Jack the Ripper's last victim, Mary Jane Kelly, who was killed in her lodgings. Jack went to town on her face and body so that she resembled a butchered animal and could only be identified (by her boyfriend) by her eyes. This picture reminds me of that, though in Andrew's case the eye went as well. Horrible!
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by PossumPie »

I must confess, this picture of the ferocious damage done to Andrew always makes me second guess my thought that Lizzie was guilty. The energy used to make that damage, to see his face destroyed and to keep on swinging the hatchet...was Lizzie capable? I just don't know for sure.
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Re: All About Andrew

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I can't even figure out what's in the picture.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

If you turn the photo sideways you can (just) make out the outline of a face with an injured eye.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Thanks. I do see it now.
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Re: All About Andrew

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debbiediablo wrote:I can't even figure out what's in the picture.
i can't either. not even looking at it sideways. i see his upper arm and chest, and that's it. not sure i want to see anymore though. *feels queasy*
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Yes, Catbooks, best to draw a nice fuzzy line about what's going on above the neck in that photo. It's just so bizarre that poor Andrew is lying there having been autopsied in his own sitting room, with the couch he was murdered on still standing there, and boots and socks strewn about. (The bloodied clothes were probably in the pail ready to go into the cellar.) Just very strange, all of it!
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Re: All About Andrew

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I'm not the queasy type but his face appears so mutilated that it's difficult to make sense of the photo. Plus the background is busy. One thing for sure, he didn't 'tan.'
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Yes, poor Andrew was as white as the proverbial ghost. Pity he didn't haunt his killer!
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Re: All About Andrew

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Here is a crime scene photo that shows Andrew's face a little better - I hope! :-|
GEDC0703.JPG
In order to see Andrew's face better, enlarge the photo.

Can you see him better now?
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

twinsrwe, you are very naughty! Incidentally, I like the two or three books on a stand behind his head. Very tasteful!
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:twinsrwe, you are very naughty!
I am??? :shock: Hmmm, well, you know I HAD to try and get a better photo. :wink: The crime scene photos of 1892, are not very visually clear. Abby’s crime scene photos of her wounds are just as unclear.

Curryong wrote:Incidentally, I like the two or three books on a stand behind his head. Very tasteful!
I agree.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Thank you (I think...:-).
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Re: All About Andrew

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debbiediablo wrote:Thank you (I think...:-).
I know crime scene photos are not easy to look at, Debbie; especially, when the victims are so mutilated. However, I think this photo would be much worse to look at, if it had been taken with color film. Guess we can be thankful this photo was taken with good ole’ black and white film!
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Thank heavens colour film wasn't invented, it would look like the 'Texas Chain Saw Massacre!' There are some very sweet Victorian photos that have been hand-tinted though, aren't there, of children, animals and theatre performers?
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Catbooks »

thanks, twins. i did look (didn't have to :) and can see it better in that second shot. yikes, his face was a mess. SO glad this happened before color photography. i know i wouldn't have been able to look at this, or the other photos, if they were in color.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:Thank heavens colour film wasn't invented, it would look like the 'Texas Chain Saw Massacre!' There are some very sweet Victorian photos that have been hand-tinted though, aren't there, of children, animals and theatre performers?
Yes, I think this photo would be unbearable to look at, if it had been taken with color film. I think you are right about the Victorian photos.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Catbooks wrote:thanks, twins. i did look (didn't have to :) and can see it better in that second shot. yikes, his face was a mess. SO glad this happened before color photography. i know i wouldn't have been able to look at this, or the other photos, if they were in color.
Your welcome, Catbooks. I was hoping forum members could see Andrew’s face better, in the second photo I posted. I know his face was badly mutilated, but it is hard to see since there are so many other objects around the surrounding area. I am also glad the Borden crime scene photos are in black and white. Colored crime scene photos are extremely hard to stomach; like the crime scene photos taken of the Tate-LaBianca Murders on August 9th and 10th of 1969.

Don’t worry, I won’t post a link to those photos. :shaking:
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Catbooks »

i can see it in your second photo, twins, although yes the background around his head area is so busy, it's still not that easy to make out unless you click to enlarge.

ugh, ugh, ugh. i've never seen the tate-labianca murder photos, and never will. that happened about 10 or fewer miles from my house when i was growing up. it was shocking beyond belief.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Manson (mad as a cut snake) still puts in an appearance occasionally before the Parole Board doesn't he, hoping to be given his freedom? Fat chance! I suppose a couple of his female followers are still incarcerated also. Wasn't Manson after Doris Day's son Terry Melcher, but he'd moved out shortly before? The poor victims were truly people in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Catbooks wrote:i can see it in your second photo, twins, although yes the background around his head area is so busy, it's still not that easy to make out unless you click to enlarge. …
It’s an interesting photo, because as you stated, you can’t see Andrew’s head very well until you enlarge the photo. However, now that you know the outline of his head, you will most likely be able to see it more easily when viewing smaller photos.

Catbooks wrote:… ugh, ugh, ugh. i've never seen the tate-labianca murder photos, and never will. that happened about 10 or fewer miles from my house when i was growing up. it was shocking beyond belief.
Oh, wow, Catbooks; I didn’t realize you were so close to those grisly murders! No wonder you don’t care to see crime scene photos; can’t say as though I blame you! I have always been a true crime buff; I am intrigued with the mind set of the killers and ‘what makes them tick’. Charles Manson’s followers scare me, but Charlie scares me even more. There is a YouTube video about the children of Charles Manson, which I found very interesting, especially, the interview of Michael Brunner. What a nice man he turned out to be! Here is the KCBS Special Report, done in 2 parts:

The Manson Children - KCBS Special - Parts 1 and 2

KCBS Special report on the Manson children. Michael Brunner the son of Charles Manson and Mary Brunner is interviewed along with Catherine Share and her son Paul. KCBS, Los Angeles. 1993.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f035w8eD2f0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv8vngdCMN0
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by twinsrwe »

Curryong wrote:Manson (mad as a cut snake) still puts in an appearance occasionally before the Parole Board doesn't he, hoping to be given his freedom? Fat chance! I suppose a couple of his female followers are still incarcerated also. Wasn't Manson after Doris Day's son Terry Melcher, but he'd moved out shortly before? The poor victims were truly people in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I love your ‘mad as a cut snake’! I've never hear Manson described as that before. :grin:

Yes, Charlie does still have occasional appearances before the Parole Board, Thank God, he has always been denied his freedom!

You are correct, Patricia Krenwinkle and Leslie Van Houten are still incarcerated, as well as Tex Watson. As you probably already know, Susan Atkins died on September 24, 2009, at the Central California Women's facility in Chowchilla.

Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys, introduced Terry Melcher to Charles Manson in 1968. At one point in time, Terry was interested in recording Manson's music as well as making a movie about the family and their hippie commune existence. Manson actually met Terry Melcher at 10050 Cielo Drive, which was Terry’s home at the time; this is also the house where Steven Parent, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Sharon Tate and her unborn child were murdered. Charlie did auditioned for Terry, but Melcher declined to sign him. Both Wilson and Melcher severed their ties with Manson, a move that angered Manson. Not long after splitting from Manson, Melcher moved out of the Cielo Drive home. There was a lot of speculation that Manson chose 10050 Cielo Drive because he was angry about not getting a record deal and wanted to ‘get rid’ of Terry for not signing him on, but in fact at the time of the murders, Manson knew Terry had moved from Cielo Drive.

Source: (scroll down to Encounter with Manson Family) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Melcher
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Thanks for posting that interesting information, twins. What a waste all that loss of life was, and those two girls and one male who followed him, (brainwashed?) incarcerated for a lifetime too. (That cut snake thing is an Australian expression, by the way!)

I don't know whether I keep imagining that people are dead (see my post on the other thread) but isn't Terry Melcher deceased, from cancer I believe? I wonder how Brian Wilson felt later about introducing the delightful Charlie into Terry's circle.
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Catbooks »

twinsrwe wrote:
Catbooks wrote:… ugh, ugh, ugh. i've never seen the tate-labianca murder photos, and never will. that happened about 10 or fewer miles from my house when i was growing up. it was shocking beyond belief.
Oh, wow, Catbooks; I didn’t realize you were so close to those grisly murders! No wonder you don’t care to see crime scene photos; can’t say as though I blame you! I have always been a true crime buff; I am intrigued with the mind set of the killers and ‘what makes them tick’. Charles Manson’s followers scare me, but Charlie scares me even more. There is a YouTube video about the children of Charles Manson, which I found very interesting, especially, the interview of Michael Brunner. What a nice man he turned out to be! Here is the KCBS Special Report, done in 2 parts:

The Manson Children - KCBS Special - Parts 1 and 2

KCBS Special report on the Manson children. Michael Brunner the son of Charles Manson and Mary Brunner is interviewed along with Catherine Share and her son Paul. KCBS, Los Angeles. 1993.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f035w8eD2f0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv8vngdCMN0
i didn't know manson had a child. thank god he was only 1 1/2 years old and got taken out of there and into a loving, normal home. i can't even imagine what it would be like to learn that's who your father is, having to be the one to tell him, and having to tell your son that's who his grandfather is.

manson is insane.

yep, it was surreal and horrifying finding out the next morning what had happened, and so near to our house. i remember reading one book about manson/the manson family (but could not read about the murders), years later. it might have been bugliosi's book. in one part he talks about how one night they were driving about 4 blocks away from where i was, at an intersection i'd been at hundreds of times. they were at the stop light and were going to shoot someone in the next car - just for 'fun.' what saved that person's life was the light turned green. i was so chilled, thinking that i could have been there, could have known the person who was shot had the light not changed. i could have even been the person they almost killed. (i think it was an older person, so it definitely wasn't me in that car, but had i gone out that night, been there, had traffic been a little different, it could have been.)

it was interesting reading the story about melcher and manson. i'd known some of it, but not why melcher didn't want anything to do with him anymore.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:Thanks for posting that interesting information, twins. What a waste all that loss of life was, and those two girls and one male who followed him, (brainwashed?) incarcerated for a lifetime too. (That cut snake thing is an Australian expression, by the way!)
I don't know whether I keep imagining that people are dead (see my post on the other thread) but isn't Terry Melcher deceased, from cancer I believe? I wonder how Brian Wilson felt later about introducing the delightful Charlie into Terry's circle.
You’re welcome, Curryong.

I agree, it is a terrible loss of the lives of those women, as well as Tex Watson, not to mention the lives of their 8 victims; I do count Sharon and Roman’s unborn child as being a victim – this baby was only 2 weeks away from being born! Yes, I believe that sex, brainwashing, drugs and Charlie were these killers downfall.

Susan Atkins requested a "compassionate release" from the California Board of Parole Hearings in July of 2009. Thankfully, the board denied her request. As far as I know, Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel continue to be model inmates. Tex Watson became a born-again Christian in 1975; he is now an ordained minister. Manson himself has stopped going to parole hearings, sending word to officials that prison is his home and he wants to stay there. Manson didn't show up for his 12th parole hearing on April 11, 2012. Charles was denied parole at this hearing; his next hearing is scheduled for 2027.

Charlie has accumulated 108 serious disciplinary violations in prison since 1971. He has shown no indication of remorse for his nine murder convictions, nor has he participated in any self-help programs or vocational training. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/justice/c ... es-manson/

There are a couple of YouTube videos which I found very interesting, especially the parts containing Leslie, Patricia and Susan. Check them out:

Charles Manson - Dianne Sawyer Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4qZB2ytq10

Susan Atkins 2002 Interview with Dianne Sawyer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqooUe0wC0

You are correct, Terry Melcher died of Melanoma on November 19, 2004; he was only 62 years old.

BTW, it was Dennis Wilson, not Brian, who introduced Manson to Terry Melcher. However, the only connection, that I am aware of, between Manson and Brian is that Manson’s recording sessions were held at the home studio of Dennis’ brother, Brian Wilson. I did a Google search to see if I could find anything regarding how Dennis felt about introducing Charlie into Terry. Apparently, he never liked to speak about his connection to Manson and his followers. Dennis Wilson drowned on December 28, 1983, after diving off the pier at Marina Del Rey in Los Angeles, ostensibly to recover items he’d thrown off his yacht when it was docked there years before. An autopsy showed evidence of cocaine in his system, as well as an elevated blood alcohol level. He was only 39 years old when he died.

I assumed that cut snake thing was an Australian expression, and that it couldn’t possibly be the most flattering thing to say about a person, since you used it to describe Charlie Manson, but I sure would like to know what this Australian expression actually means!
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: All About Andrew

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Catbooks wrote:... i didn't know manson had a child. thank god he was only 1 1/2 years old and got taken out of there and into a loving, normal home. i can't even imagine what it would be like to learn that's who your father is, having to be the one to tell him, and having to tell your son that's who his grandfather is.

manson is insane.

yep, it was surreal and horrifying finding out the next morning what had happened, and so near to our house. i remember reading one book about manson/the manson family (but could not read about the murders), years later. it might have been bugliosi's book. in one part he talks about how one night they were driving about 4 blocks away from where i was, at an intersection i'd been at hundreds of times. they were at the stop light and were going to shoot someone in the next car - just for 'fun.' what saved that person's life was the light turned green. i was so chilled, thinking that i could have been there, could have known the person who was shot had the light not changed. i could have even been the person they almost killed. (i think it was an older person, so it definitely wasn't me in that car, but had i gone out that night, been there, had traffic been a little different, it could have been.)

it was interesting reading the story about melcher and manson. i'd known some of it, but not why melcher didn't want anything to do with him anymore.
OMG, Catbooks, I have chills running up and down my spine, along with goose bumps; the hair on my arms are standing straight up!!! No wonder you don’t care to read about these murders or view the crime scene photos! My heart goes out to you.

Vincent Bugliosi wrote, jointly with Curt Gentry, the book titled, Helter Skelter. This book was written after Vincent successfully prosecuted Charles Manson and along with the other members of his "family" for the 1969 murders. It is in my opinion, the best book ever written on the Manson Murders.

Like you, I can’t imagine what it would be like to learn that Charles Manson is my biological father! Michael Brunner seems to have taken this ‘news’ and learned to chalk it up to something he can’t change, so continues to live his life in a positive manner. Thank God, for his grandparents! Michael sure looks like his mother, doesn’t he?

Actually, Charlie has three children that he fathered: Charles M. Manson Jr. Son b. 1956 by wife Rosalie Jean Willis. Committed suicide in 1993. Charles Luther Manson. Son b. April 10, 1963 by wife Leona Rae "Candy" Stevens. Disappeared so successfully, he is often reported as "allegedly" existing. Michael Brunner. Son b. April 1, 1968 by Mary Brunner. His mother was the first member of ‘The Family’.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Hello, twins, a person who is as 'mad as a cut snake' is someone who is always exceptionally crazy and angry with the world! Someone who is liable to suddenly strike (back) rather like a snake when it's being struck with a spade or something!

There are lots of Aussie expressions like that. 'Looking like a stunned mullet' is another, that is looking extremely shocked and confused, with the mouth open, presumably like the fish!

My favourite is a very old one, 'running around like a two-bob watch'. Two shillings (2 bob in the old money Australians used to use) is not very much at all, so therefore the person is imitating the erratic works of a very cheap watch!
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Re: All About Andrew

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Thank you, Curryong. I'm a lover of language, and you've just taught me three new things!
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Re: All About Andrew

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twins, thanks. pretty scary reading that kind of stuff. makes the world feel like a very random and sometimes frightening place. i doubt i'd want to read about the murders or look at the crime photos, even if it had happened 3000 miles away, though. same as i can't deal with reading about the jack the ripper murders. just too horrific.

i was watching a few youtubes on manson. or rather, his 'family.' i tried watching some of two interviews he gave - charlie rose, geraldo. he's too crazy to watch for very long, mostly just a bunch of ranting and blahblahblah. but i did find this one interesting, with a profiler watching and giving her thoughts about him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTMM5Gm0sgg

curryong, would you say your cute koala avatar has a look of a stunned mullet? he or she looks to me like someone said or did something shocking, mid-leaf munching :D
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Re: All About Andrew

Post by Curryong »

Yes, definitely, but not enough to drop the gum leaf!
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Re: All About Andrew

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With apologies to pandas everywhere:

A koala walks into a restaurant, sits down and orders a sandwich. After he finishes eating the sandwich, the koala pulls out a gun and shoots the waiter, and then stands up to go. "Hey!" shouts the manager. "Where are you going? You just shot my waiter, and you didn't pay for your sandwich!"

The koala yells back at the manager, "Hey man, I'm a KOALA! Look it up!"

The manager opens his dictionary and sees the following definition for koala: "A tree-dwelling arboreal herbivorous marsupial found in Australia, characterized by its stout, tailless body; round, fluffy ears; and large, spoon-shaped nose. Eats shoots and leaves."
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Re: All About Andrew

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Curryong wrote:Hello, twins, a person who is as 'mad as a cut snake' is someone who is always exceptionally crazy and angry with the world! Someone who is liable to suddenly strike (back) rather like a snake when it's being struck with a spade or something!

There are lots of Aussie expressions like that. 'Looking like a stunned mullet' is another, that is looking extremely shocked and confused, with the mouth open, presumably like the fish!

My favourite is a very old one, 'running around like a two-bob watch'. Two shillings (2 bob in the old money Australians used to use) is not very much at all, so therefore the person is imitating the erratic works of a very cheap watch!
Oh wow, Curryong, your explanation of 'mad as a cut snake', describes Manson to a ‘T’; in other words, it fits him perfectly!!! I love learning the expressions used in other languages. Thanks for sharing these expressions with us. :grin:
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: All About Andrew

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Catbooks wrote:twins, thanks. pretty scary reading that kind of stuff. makes the world feel like a very random and sometimes frightening place. i doubt i'd want to read about the murders or look at the crime photos, even if it had happened 3000 miles away, though. same as i can't deal with reading about the jack the ripper murders. just too horrific.

i was watching a few youtubes on manson. or rather, his 'family.' i tried watching some of two interviews he gave - charlie rose, geraldo. he's too crazy to watch for very long, mostly just a bunch of ranting and blahblahblah. but i did find this one interesting, with a profiler watching and giving her thoughts about him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTMM5Gm0sgg

curryong, would you say your cute koala avatar has a look of a stunned mullet? he or she looks to me like someone said or did something shocking, mid-leaf munching :D
You’re welcome, Catbooks. I hope I have not posted anything that you find offensive; if I have, I apologize. I lived through the 60’s, and remember the Tate-LaBianca Murders very well. These murders scared the h___ out of me, and I have lived all of my life in Wisconsin! (Please excuse my language). I can’t image being in your shoes, and living so close to where those murders took place.

YouYube does have some very good videos on Manson and the family. I haven’t watched the video you posted, but I intend to – thanks for posting that link.

Personally, I think Manson is a lunatic. I found the following article when I did a Google search regarding Charlie’s mind. Although, it is interesting article, I still think he is a lunatic, no matter what Leslie Van Houten says.

Check out this article: https://medium.com/extraordinary-lives/a27cdfa5da42
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: All About Andrew

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twinsrwe wrote:These murders scared the h___ out of me, and I have lived all of my life in Wisconsin!
I'm in NE Iowa. How much snow do you have in Wisconsin. We're at 59 inches for the winter and no January thaw.
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Re: All About Andrew

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We're at 34 degrees centigrade at the moment, I believe that's about 93 Fahrenheit. I don't know how you all endure those long snowy winters. One good thing I left behind me when I emigrated, though kids have lots of good fun in the snow and of course it's great if you ski.
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Re: All About Andrew

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Eats shoots and leaves.
ha! :D

i didn't realize that was a gum leaf. i thought they only ate eucalyptus leaves!
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