The Borden Privy

[Tina-Kate]

I think the myth of the Borden basement facilities has largely been perpetuated by the TV movie. Even Borden scholar Jules Ryckebusch called it "an indoor outhouse" in one of the TV documentaries from the 90s. Yet, even Victoria Lincoln (writing in the 60s) knew it was a water closet. The water closet was installed by Andrew, as we know he hooked the house to the city water & it was during the period they lived in the house that flush toilets came into popular use -- so, he made a few concessions to modernity.

[d snell]

Many thanks, Kat. In Lizziedom, kind words or any sort of encouragement is as rare as . . . well, it’s mighty rare. Hope William can forward what he has. Like everyone, I’d rather step on a rusty nail than have anything I say proved wrong. But a desire for accuracy and completeness far outweighs my ego.

Positing that it was a conventional flushing fixture, it’s interesting that Andrew sprang for a state-of-the-art type installation, instead of a more modest arrangement. Maybe they didn’t have electricity, but there was no scrimping here.

[Kat]

Trial
679
Edson

RE-DIRECT.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) I wish you would describe the water-closet. We have all seen it, but I would like to have it in the record. What sort of water-closet is it?
A. When you go down the cellar stairs, it is facing the cellar stairs.

Q. I don't care about its position, but what sort of water-closet was this? How is It operated?
A. I am not sure whether it has a hopper or not in there. It is a common water-closet.

Page 680

Q. If you are not sure, I don't care to pursue it any farther.
A. An ordinary closet.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) Having a pull?
A. I am not so sure about that, sir.
............

Everyone I checked in the trial tonight called the thing in the cellar a water closet. I searched the word "flush" and "water". So the water closet came up under the word "water." I did not search the word "privy."

I have a Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary, 1897 definition to add to your offering. I wasn't sure of the term "hopper" so I looked that up as well:

Water closet- A room having a hopper flushed and discharged by means of water, for use as a privy; also, the hopper and its trap; loosely, any other privy.

Hopper- A funnel-shaped receiver or basin in a water closet, usually having an "S" trap below it.


I think you have been pretty fair in your dealings here and I admire your tenacity!
Anyway, you are more interested in the barn privy though, I understand?..

[augusta]

I agree with Mr. Snell and Allen, very much so. If the new owners have a chance to search the old barn privy before it is covered over again with another building, I wish they would do so.

I think it would be interesting, and exciting, if a hatchet were found in it. True, it may be quite decomposed. But remember when they found the Titanic? It looked far different than what everyone thought it would.

And, like Allen brought up, there could be other relics down there as well. If nothing is down there, then okay - at least it was searched. A peek down the hole on August 4th means very little.

I don't think Lizzie went to the bathroom in the bahn that morning. She did talk about "fleas" and the word "menstruation" was used out loud in court. I think she could have easily said she was using the "necessary facilities" or something ladylike to describe her activity. And right - who's gonna eat 3 pears if they're already sick? (Personally I don't believe Lizzie was sick at all. No one ever saw her sick; she only said she was.)

Check out the archives for William's comments about the cellar water closet being flushable. It was a good thread - none of us knew, and he seemed to have solved that dilemma for us.

When I read Mr. Snell's letter in the 6th issue, I got excited and thought it was a really good idea. The worst that could happen is they would find nothing, and at least the area would be thoroughly searched once and for all.

[FairhavenGuy]

Just a note to Augusta about hatchet head vs. Titanic.

Cold salt water tends not to rust metal in the manner we're used to. It does however change it, so that artifacts that are recovered from under the sea will, upon exposure to air, begin to corrode away if not properly treated.

Right now, here in Fairhaven, we have a cast iron cannon from the British ship Nimrod. The cannon was dumped near the island of Cuttyhunk during the War of 1812 and stayed underwater for nearly two hundred years.

Upon recovery, it was placed in a tank to soak in a specially pH balanced chemical bath for 15 to 20 years. It will then be able to be removed and kept in the open air.

On the other hand, our acid New England soil is terrible for the preservation of iron.

[Miller]

Yes, Augusta, I'd like to see it thoroughly examined myself just to put the issue to rest once and for all.

I agree it wouldn't prove WHO put a hatchet (or anything else down there) any more than luminol tests in the cellar as show on that very poorly done MorningStar documentary. I think what it would do is provide alot of newspaper and other media notoriety to the B&B and draw more attention to the case. There's always a surge in "Lizzie interest" whenever something new, be it a book, a play, a documentary, some new discovery or theory is brought forth.

It's still amusing to me that the hatchet found in the barn when it was torn down was described as being on a beam. Not inside a wall or under floorboards but on top of a beam. That would indicate the barn wasn't searched ALL that much don't you think? Feeling along the top of exposed beams would seem a pretty obvious thing to do in looking for a murder weapon.

I just dont thinkt he FR Police did a very good job in any of their searches, the privy included.

[Kat]

The rest of the citation on the cellar water closet:
Rebello, pg. 32

"The Borden home had two faucets serviced by city water: one in the kitchen sink (Trial: 229, 231) and another 'faucet' in the cellar. (Trial: 198) There was also a faucet in the barn. Bridget testified the faucet in the barn was serviced by 'City Water.' (Preliminary Hearing: 6) Andrew Borden applied for city water "six months after the convenience was first made available to residents of Fall River." (Tanous, Jamelle and Dennis Binette, 'Research Shows a New Side of Andrew J. Borden,' Fall River Historical Society Report, vol. 9, no. 1, Winter / Spring, 1997: 16 and 'Research Discovers an Unknown Side of Andrew J. Borden,' Lizzie Borden Quarterly, vol. 4, no. 3, July / 1997:15-16.) The cellar water closet was serviced by city water."

[Kat]

For those of you interested in this barn demolition and what was found, and who don't have Rebello, or are not quite familiar with the tome,here is more info:

In Rebello, pg. 38, it states that Kewpie Dolls used to be made in the barn. In the headlines around the time of the barn demolition, something was found which was first called a "cooper's hammer" and later, in headlines, became an "axe."
It was said to be a "hoax" and then later it was said money was spent to study the implement.

Anyway, because there were other residents at Second Street and other uses of the barn between 1893 and 1929 when it was demolished, it seems as if whatever implement was found could have belonged, or left there, by just about anyone using the property during those 36 years.


Rebello, 106+
"Later Ax Discoveries

Ax Discovered in the Borden Home - 1929"

"Borden Mystery, Find Hammer in Old Barn / Speculation as to Whether Weapon Discovered May Have Been Wielded by the Murderer / Implement Drops from Loft as Workman Demolish the Building / Instrument Now in the Hands of Chemist Who Will Try to Determine Whether Stains Are Rust or Some of Them Human Blood," Fall River Herald News, April 6, 1929: 1.

"A cooper's hammer was found in the barn at Second Street by Harold Gifford. According to The Herald News, it was a hoax."

"Building Wreckers Hope To Find Clue To Borden Murders in Barn / Start to Tear Down Structure Where Lizzie Said She Hunted Lead for Fishline During Crime / Pear Tree Is Free of Axe," Providence Journal, April 6, 1929: 14.

"Find Stained Axe in Borden Barn / Workmen Discover Ancient Tool, Possibly Used in Mysterious Double Murder in 1892 / Expert to Examine Marks / Pathologist to Tell If Discoloration Was Blood- Lizzie Borden Acquitted of Crime," Providence Sunday Journal, April 7, 1929: 1.

"Borden Barn Axe Said To Show Blood / Bay State Pathological Expert Not Certain Whether It Is Human," Providence Journal, April 10, 1929: 28.

"Denies Barn Axe Used in Murders / Dr. Gunning, Lone Survivor of Borden Slaying Autopsies, Hits Latest Discovery / Police Also Skeptical / Former Fall River Medical Examiner Says Weapon Just Found Could Not Have Made Deep Cuts," (newspaper unknown)

"Dr. Thomas F. Gunning, the lone survivor of the group of witnesses at the autopsies, said, 'I distinctly remember the appearance of the wounds inflicted upon the bodies of both Mr. and Mrs. Borden. The head and back of Mrs. Borden, yes, Mr. Borden, too, were deeply cut by the weapon used. These wounds were five or six inches long. They could not have been made by any such hatchet or axe as that found in the old barn. Not even a giant wielding that tool could have inflicted wounds like those which killed the Bordens.' "
.........
"Pathologist's Bill for $272 Approved / Axe Test In Lizzie Borden Murder Case Finally Disposed Of," Providence Journal, January 15, 1930: 4.

[Audrey]

Cooper's Hammer



http://www.davistownmuseum.org/Inventor ... oDrew.html

[Kat]

Thanks Audrey. That's helpful. So it looks sort of like a hammer/hatchet combination, and might have been worked up into something bigger, like an "axe", by the press.

[Harry]

Yes, thanks Auds for the photo.

Somehow it doesn't look very threatening.

[Miller]

That's true, Kat. The "barn demo hatchet" could have very likely been left up there long after the Borden murders. The hatchet went somewhere in the vicinity of that house and barn and distance between if you believe Lizzie did it and believe she was in the barn as she said she was (which means you also believe Hyman Lubinsky). So unless she had Bridget or Churchill or Bowen spirit it away...it's still around there. Or maybe Morse took it away. I personally think Lizzie dropped it in the privy and that's why she was never worried about the searches, particularly in her room or the cellar for axes and hatchets...."Bridget can show you where they are..." 'Go ahead. Search all you want. Snicker, snicker, snicker.' ;)

[Kat]

Lizzie and Emma were still owners of the house on Second Street until 1918 (Rebello, pg.35).
They also had plenty of time to retrieve anything they purposely left behind.
For that matter, Emma had plenty of time to look around and find something during the 10 months Lizzie was in jail.

[Susan]

So thats what was found in the barn? Thanks for the pic, Audrey, it looks pretty remote from an axe or hatchet. Was curious and had to look it up, I was wondering what the heck a "cooper" was, heres the Miriam-Webster dictionary definition:

Cooper-One who makes or repairs barrells and/or casks.

[Richard]

I have to put in my two cents.

I personally think if a hatchet head was found in the barn privy vault, even if there was no residual trace of human blood, even if the handle were eaten away by time and bacteria, even if the metal remaining was a mass of rust and cannot be dated, it would still be fascinating.

After all, a hatchet found on a shelf in a closet, a hatchet found on a roof of a house, etc...those all can have reasonable explanations. But who would reasonably take a hatchet, go to their barn privy and throw it down into the hole? It wouldn't be reasonable to assume that someone would drop it down there by accident while they were dumping chamber pots, or drop it by accident while they were using the privy for their own scatalogical use.

My son once dropped a pencil down the toilet because he was doing his home work while sitting on it. Another time he stopped it up because he was trying to flush his dinner vegetables down the drain to make us think that he ate them. All those wuold have reasonable excuses?

Can anyone think of what possible reason someone would have to drop a hatchet down the privy in the barn? So for that reason, I think finding a hatchet head down there would create a fairly rational argument that someone was throwing it down into the hole because they were trying to hide it.

Does that make sense?

[augusta]

Interesting post, Fairhaven Guy. I had known that the air could ruin the stuff retrieved from the Titanic, but I didn't know you had to keep like that cannon immersed in stuff for so long! (Neat find for Fairhaven!)

True, who knows what condition any axe would be in if in that privy site. But I think one needs to try. If this is the only chance to have it searched I would go for it.

I didn't realize the axe found in the barn when they were dismantling it was found on an open beam. I thought it was inside the wall, and when they started taking the outer boards off it was exposed. I'm remembering a photograph of that, with the "axe" at an angle.
GREAT PICTURE, AUDREY.

[john]

As I recall the "axe" was found in the chimney of the house in the 1920's.

[Kat]

Part of headline:
"Implement Drops from Loft as Workman Demolish the Building."--Fall River Herald News, April 6, 1929: 1.

I don't know where the info could have come from that gave exact detail as to where the hammer/hatchet was found.
I suppose it's possible that the content of the texts of these news items gave this detail, but so far we have no source offered here.
......

Hello john,
Can you tell us about a hatchet from a chimney?

[Nancie]

Don't we come back to the same thing, yes very
interesting, but who put it there and when?
Finding a hatchet in the old privy would be news, and very exciting, but nothing to add to the case really. how could it add to the case?

[Allen]

Well it would add the same thing the rest of the evidence adds to the case in my opinion, what the handleless hatchet added to the caes, it would give us something new to debate.Which would be exactly what you stated: Who put it there? Why did they put it there? Just something else to add to the mystery. But I think the idea that a weapon was found there at all would be fascinating.We have too many hatchets already? Hmm, but if we don't really have the actual murder weapon, what does it hurt to look for another?

[Kat]

Near the beginning of this supposition, it was brought up that maybe even a stranger etc. dropped a hatchet there- (A "fleeing other assailant")- I think I am reacting somewhat to this idea.
I can't figure out if someone else would know to go there and drop a weapon.

[Audrey]

Near the beginning of this supposition, it was brought up that maybe even a stranger etc. dropped a hatchet there- (A "fleeing other assailant")- I think I am reacting somewhat to this idea.
I can't figure out if someone else would know to go there and drop a weapon.

I agree. I think a stranger would get the heck out of there and not spend the time going into the barn.

I also think that the privy/outhouse/etc "vault" would be a "once it's there it's gone" mindset... Kind of like flushing a note or dead gold fish!

[Susan]

Thats a good point about a stranger getting the heck out of there and not worrying about disposing of a hatchet down the barn privy. But, if there was a hatchet found there, would it stand to reason that the murders were an inside job, someone well acquainted with the Borden premises would think to drop a murder weapon there?

I was reading a few sites online about outhouse diggers, people who excavate old privies for the archaeological finds. Some of these people have unearthed colonial era privies that still contained food items as well as other things, pretty interesting stuff. Who knows what would be found on the Borden barn site?

[Kat]

Well, when I first heard the theory here I thought an outsider wouldn't think of it. That they had gotten that far, they might as well keep it and keep going. That would mean an escape over the Chagnon fence?

[Harry]

To me, if a hatchet was recovered from the privy, it would not only indicate an "inside" job, but that the killer for some reason or other couldn't (or chose not to) leave the premises to dispose of it elsewhere.

I cannot conceive of a stranger disposing of it in the privy and then fleeing.

If it was an outsider who did the slayings I don't think they would even bother taking the hatchet with them. Excluding Billy Borden of course.

[Susan]

That would mean an escape over the Chagnon fence?

I'm thinking if the killer wasn't one of the family, wouldn't they still have to have some knowledge of the area and Borden yard as a route of escape? Supposing they jumped the fence into the Chagnon's yard, didn't they have a dog? Was the dog friendly with strangers or would it attack, hatchet or not? So, I think it would be someone who had a least a working knowledge of the neighborhood.

[john]

It would add to the case though, Nancie. According to Harvard University the crimes were done by a new hatchet. This information was not presented at trial by the prosecution for obvious reasons. At least it would would be known that the probable murder weapon was discarded.

[FairhavenGuy]

I really can't believe that we're still discussing this.

The main reason is IF a hatchet were found in the area of the privy, there would be no way of dating it to anywhere close to August 4, 1892. There would be no way of knowing if it had been put there a decade before the murders or a decade after the murders. There is just absolutely NO WAY one could ever tell when that rusty piece of iron ended up in the ground, so it simply couldn't be connected with the murders.

Even if a hatchet had been found in the privy on August 4, 1892, it would be hard to prove in court that it hadn't been put there a week earlier.

That should close this issue.

However, there's still speculation about whether or not a member of the family or anyone would drop the murder weapon into the privy.

Honestly, I doubt it. A privy isn't a well. They're really not all that deep and a relatively unused one wouldn't have a lot in it that a hatchet might sink down into. I think it would be relatively well known in the time period that something dropped into a privy would NOT be "gone forever." It would just be right there in some muck under the privy. It is not at all like flushing something away into the sewer system. In many cases privies had to been cleaned out regularly.

And for anyone to think that with not one but two BORDENS dead in their home in the middle of the city the police would not thoroughly inspect the privy just because it's kind of smelly down there is a silly presumption. They laid out Abby and Andrew on the dining room table, cut out their stomachs and put them in jars, for goodness sake. Somebody pawed through their stomach contents and discovered bits of digested meat and fruit skins. You think that's any prettier than inspecting a privy? Come on, folks. This is a double axe murder. I think somebody must have checked the privy pretty well.

[Kat]

Actually, the Bordens weren't laid out on the dining room table but rather on undertaker's boards. But I appreciate your post and it's sensible tone.

I used to think the weapon was hidden in the pear tree. And one of those "Rebello" headlines I posted earlier says the Pear Tree was empty- in 1929!

"Building Wreckers Hope To Find Clue To Borden Murders in Barn / Start to Tear Down Structure Where Lizzie Said She Hunted Lead for Fishline During Crime / Pear Tree Is Free of Axe," Providence Journal, April 6, 1929: 14.

I think Emma removed the weapon from the tree after everyone stopped coming 'round searching!

[Allen]

Wow. I cannot believe that anyone would not think excavating the vault would not be worthwhile, especially when you have no idea whats down there.Even if no weapon were found at all, it would lay to rest any questions about whether or not the murder weapon was thrown down there. If a weapon were found,yes there would be debate as to whether or not it was indeed the murder weapon, but it would be interesting non the less. I think either way it turns out it would be worth while to search it. Three is no telling what is down there. I was looking around and found some sites on privy digging.I had no idea how popular it was. The first two concern a privy discovered and excavated in Boston.

"The artifacts shed light on how Colonial Bostonians lived. In 1660, little did Boston resident Katherine Nanny Naylor realize her privy (or outhouse) would one-day be hailed as one of Boston’s most significant archaeological discoveries. But its contents, preserved by the privy’s clay cap and brick walls, along with rising groundwater, show that not only did staunch Puritans wear lace and play “lawn bowle” (despite the game’s legal prohibition), but they suffered from intestinal parasites whose microscopic eggs were found by archaeologists."

http://secure.aaasne.com/public/horizon ... tml#local3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although the sanitation might compare with that of a developing country today, the Nanny-Naylor family was not poor. Archaeologists found 158 fragments of silk and fine woolen textiles in the privy. "The family that lived at this site used high-quality fabrics with expensive weaves, mixtures, and fancy trims representing fashionable seventeenth-century dress," according to Margaret Ordoñez and Linda Welters of the University of Rhode Island. Scissors, a needle case, an unusual quantity of silk ribbons, and scraps with cut edges suggest that Katherine Nanny-Naylor might have mended or trimmed her family's clothing. Or had someone discarded these elegant scraps to comply with Puritan sumptuary laws forbidding excessive display, especially among servants and laborers? Perhaps Katherine dumped her roving ex-husband's clothes into the "office" after he wrote from Pemaquid, Maine, asking her to send them, "as I have none to wear, especially linen and shoes." Five waterlogged shoes, including three stylish children's shoes, also turned up in the privy. All had been made with fine leather, possibly goatskin, with the flesh side out, in an unusual gap-toe style. One had a set of holes to attach a decorative rosette. A fashionable men's shoe with a stacked leather heel was found to be "quite worn and may indicate the taste of the intemperate, philandering Edward Naylor," according to Jeffrey Butterworth of the University of Rhode Island. A pipe stem dated to 1672 coincides with Naylor's hasty departure, perhaps a good time dispose of an old shoe. The fifth shoe, also made of fine leather but without heels and more practical, would have fit a young adult.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/boston/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.bottlebooks.com/privyinf.htm

http://www.privydigger.com/purpose.htm

http://www.glswrk-auction.com/004.htm

[bullet43]

Maybe the Hatchet is planted in the wall somewhere in the house? or in the well?

[Nancie]

Didn't Emma say in a rare interview that she believed in Lizzie's innocence because there was no
weapon found? The murderer must have taken it
away? Having grown up in an old modest Victorian
house like that, I remember lots of hiding places, dead zones we called them, closets that went on forever into spooky places with cobwebs. Maybe when the house itself is torn down (I hope never) something might be found, but the privy doesn't excite me.

[stuartwsa]

The privy DOES fascinate me, but not because of the hatchet. There are so many other things that could be found there--whiskey bottles indicating a secret drinker in the family; patent medicine bottles that could indicate a dependency of some sort...anything found would add another interesting touch (if not mystery!) to the history of our friends, the Bordens.

[Susan]

I was looking around and found some sites on privy digging.I had no idea how popular it was. The first two concern a privy discovered and excavated in Boston.

Allen, you're a gal after my own heart, I searched those same exact sites earlier! I was curious about what might be found in the privy, if anything, after so much time and was surprised to see that quite a few things could be retrieved. I guess the problem would be tying them to our Bordens, anything found down there could have been deposited after Lizzie and Emma both had left the house and rented it. [/i]

[bullet43]

Did they Strip search Lizzie? She could have had it hiding underneath her skirt-maybe in her underwear?

[bullet43]

Of course I mean the axe. You'd be surprised where people stash things-Amazing!!

[Kat]

Found these snippets about the privy "vault" out back in the barn:

Fall River Globe, Aug.5, 1892:

"Search for the Weapon.

The interest in the search for the weapon is second only to the interest in the search for the murderer. Five officers have scoured the house and barn from top to bottom without success. Bedding was overturned, clothes closets were overhauled, a wood and coal pile were removed and not the slightest trace of blood or a murderous weapon could be found.

An old well was partially dug up and a vault was cleaned out. All of the hay in the barn was forked over. Dr. Dutra was reported to have said that he had found a blood-stained hatchet in the cellar, but like many other rumors of the missing weapons it did not materialize to advantage. It is indefinitely settled in the minds of the medical men that the wounds were inflicted by an axe in the hands of some person who had a desire for gain and an intense hatred against the dead persons."

Also:

"Mr. Morse Uneasy.

This morning Mr. Morse spent some time walking about the rear yard. In one of his perambulations he stopped at the vault that had been overhauled and said he wished he could find someone who would cover it up.

He also wanted to know if the bloody clothes that had been over the faces of the dead persons could not be buried. He said the family would be willing to bear the expenses. His wishes were reported to Dr. Dolan but that official ordered that things about the house be allowed to remain as nearly as possible as they were when the deed became known."

[Allen]

Aren't they talking about the old well?

[Susan]

Thanks, Kat, interesting snippets. As per usual, I guess its take the newspaper report with a grain of salt. Made me wonder if there was anything about that vault in any of the testimony.

Witness Statements, page 38, D. Desmond:

"After finishing the east chimney, which is the one in the kitchen, we went to look at the one in the west of building. This runs up between the parlor and the dining room. The side in the dining room seemed to be bricked up or cemented. While we were looking over it, Emma and Lizzie both said "if this front is in your way, tear it out." Mr. Jennings was there at, the time. Emma spoke a "lumber pile in the yard", and thought it would be a good place to search. Mr. Bryant and myself, went into the cellar; and it was thoroughly searched by Edson, Conners, Quigley, and Desmond. From there, we went and searched he (sic) barn, lumber pile, yard, privy vault and well, also John Crowe's yard which is on the south side of Borden house."

Preliminary Volume 3, page 257, John Morse on the stand:

Q. Is there a privy vault here at the east end of the barn?
A. Yes sir.

Q. At the south east end of the barn?
A. Yes sir.

Preliminary Volume 4, page 361, John Fleet on the stand:

Q. Did you search the vault, and everything else?
A. I searched it on the first day.

Preliminary Volume 5, page 416, Rufus B. Hilliard on the stand:

Q. That is what has been called the Crowe yard?
A. Well, I presume part of it; the other part is Dr. Kelley's I presume. From there we went, or I went to the well, or what was the well, but it has been filled up. From there I went to the rear end of the barn, and looked into a vault that was there. From that I went into the barn, up where they were overhauling the hay. I looked around there, and came down stairs, and helped in the search of the carriage house and the carriages and barrells.

Trial Volume 1, page 673, Frances L. Edson on the stand:

Q. Is there anything more you wish to say about the barn?
A. We searched the out-house in the barn, the underneath the out-house.

Trial Volume 2, page 1391, Walter P. Stevens on the stand:

Q. Did you also look in the vault behind the barn?
A. Looked into it.

Thats all there was, nothing about digging up the vault at all. I cross referenced it with privy and outhouse.

[Kat]

Thanks for all the testimony.

When Uncle John was represented as wishing that vault filled in, and that he'd been hanging around out there Friday, I thought that was rather significant for the current "Let's-dig-up-the-vault" crowd. It sounds suspicious that Morse was staying around out there.

Maybe he wanted it closed over because of the stench in August, but being as he was a horse trader from out West, I doubt he had such a delicate sense of smell.

[lydiapinkham]

A final note about Uncle John and the clothes. I remember that in a later story he is recorded as having argued with the digger over the price of the job. No wonder Andrew and John were said to have gotten along.

--Lyddie

[1bigsteve]

I think Tina-Kate is correct about the periodic cleaning out of privy vaults. My guess is that privy was cleaned before 1892 and after as well. If the police were not satisfied with their own efforts to look into, search, overhaul, and/or clean out the Borden privy vault they could have engaged someone who did this for a living. After all the authorities hired a man to crack Andrew's safe and someone else to break into the chimney masonry of the house.

If I was the guilty party and wanted to hide a weapon where it would not be found the privy vault in my barn would be one of the last places I would consider. While the job of cleaning a privy vault is unpleasant it is not impossible, especially after a double homicide has been committed on the premises.

Can someone please tell me why the masonry was broken into and what part of the chimney it was?

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Emma gave permission for the mason to open the fireplaces. They had been covered over- maybe about the time they got radiators, to search. I'm not sure they were opened tho.
But the mason took that chimney apart a bit in the front southwest* cellar room- they were whitewashed brick, in his search.
*Street front cellar room on the Kelly side.
Interior wall.