Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was reading the article on the website by Denise Noe called Why Lizzie Borden will fore ever haunt use. Got to the part of tale of the note.

Lizzie informed Bridget and later the authorities that Abby had gone out early that morning to visit a sick friend. No one ever found the note, the boy who delievered it or the woman who wrote it. However, that doesn't mean that there was no note. If the ailing person was an upper-class society lady of River Fall, she might have beenextre ly lapprehensive to involiving herself in scandel. Furthermore, if the note was a fake, it doesn't mean that Lizzie lied about it. The theory that Andrew was going to change his will, giving more property toAbby that morning, and did not want his daughter to know, might have prompted Abby to make up the note story to leave the house .

Lizzie might not have ever seen the note, she might have just gotten told about the note from Abby. Abby might have had to meet Andrew at the Lawyers office about the changes in the will and neither one wanted Lizzie or Emma to know. Think maybe that is possible point for the defense?

I some times wonder if the "note" was a "verbal message" and not a "written note" on paper. Perhaps some messanger came to the door that morning, or even the night before, and told Abby about a sick friend. Perhaps this was done as a way of getting Abby out of the house so Andrew could be killed. Maybe he was a sole target. But, if Lizzie did arrange it it wouldn't make sense to kill Andrew alone because Abby would then get everything. Hmmm....

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:20 pm wrote: I was reading the article on the website by Denise Noe called Why Lizzie Borden will fore ever haunt use. Got to the part of tale of the note.

Lizzie informed Bridget and later the authorities that Abby had gone out early that morning to visit a sick friend. No one ever found the note, the boy who delievered it or the woman who wrote it. However, that doesn't mean that there was no note. If the ailing person was an upper-class society lady of River Fall, she might have beenextre ly lapprehensive to involiving herself in scandel. Furthermore, if the note was a fake, it doesn't mean that Lizzie lied about it. The theory that Andrew was going to change his will, giving more property toAbby that morning, and did not want his daughter to know, might have prompted Abby to make up the note story to leave the house .

Lizzie might not have ever seen the note, she might have just gotten told about the note from Abby. Abby might have had to meet Andrew at the Lawyers office about the changes in the will and neither one wanted Lizzie or Emma to know. Think maybe that is possible point for the defense?

snokkums- please, please take Ms. Noe out of your quote and just put quotes around her and end quotes like "..." and then give your opinion, please?

1bigsteve @ Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:26 pm wrote:I some times wonder if the "note" was a "verbal message" and not a "written note" on paper. Perhaps some messanger came to the door that morning, or even the night before, and told Abby about a sick friend. Perhaps this was done as a way of getting Abby out of the house so Andrew could be killed. Maybe he was a sole target. But, if Lizzie did arrange it it wouldn't make sense to kill Andrew alone because Abby would then get everything. Hmmm....

-1bigsteve (o:

Hi!
I have posted the laws current at the time of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as published in the newspaper and they do not involve Abby getting "everything."
Please check the Globe info I posted. It's confusing to everyone. Thanks.

When I said "everything" I meant she would get more than she would if she were dead, or at least more than Lizzie was willing to see her get. My thought was that if Abby is bumped off first then Lizzie and Emma would get the big package. But if Andrew gets it first then Abby is first in line. I have a lot to learn about this case. I'll check into your Globe post. Thanks Kat.

-1bigsteve (o:

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:27 am    Post subject:  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When I said 'everything' I meant she would get more than she would if she were dead..."--bigSteve

Yes I agree with that...
My new eye doctor said of my old eye doctor "He is the richest eye doctor in the cemetery."

Anyway, I started a new Topic "Wills" per the Boston Globe- with that title, so it can now be easily found in a "search." I included the part which I left out before- just the final details, which were a sort of summing up.

viewtopic.php?p=19835#19835

I came across the statement about Dr. Bowen destroying a piece of paper with "Emma" on it. I was wondering if that could have been the "note" that Lizzie was refering to. Could that note have been written by Emma, or for Emma or about Emma? Perhaps the note was intended to be for Emma's eyes. Perhaps she had a friend that was sick and Abby just decided to step into Emma's shoes as care giver. Did Dr. Bowen ever mention who's handwriting it was in? I doubt it was Andrew's. He would have talked with Abby directly.

Perhaps it was written by Emma, while in Fairhaven, to Abby as a means of getting Abby out of the house on the morning of the murders.

-1bigsteve (o:

This is a tangent, but since we're talking about written notes, I wonder what was in the letter Lizzie sent to "the girls" at Marion, the one which they refused to talk about later. Was that the same letter that Andrew mailed for Lizzie the morning of the murders, I wonder?

According to Lizzie, the letter that Andrew mailed was to Emma at Fairhaven. This is from Lizzie's inquest testimony:
"Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?
A. Thursday morning, and my father mailed the
letter for me.
Q. Did she get it at Fairhaven?
A. No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at
Fairhaven for we telegraphed for her and she
got home here Thursday afternoon and the
letter was sent back to the post office."

I guess we will never know what the situation was. For what ever reason Abby was thought tobe out because of a note that may or may not have been sent. OR a verbal message. Who knows?

In the recent past I believe it was Kat who posted about the note and why didn't Lizzie ask Abby who was sick. To throw more in the mix, I'm reading Radin and he points out that Andrew never asked Lizzie who was sick when she mentioned the note to him. Radin's idea is that Andrew didn't ask because he already knew about the note, that it was possibly delivered while he was still home in the morning. Or, they were just an incredibly uncurious family when it came to Abby?

Bob Gutkowski--this is from the Archives:

Posted by haulover on Apr-3rd-03 at 10:19 AM
In response to Message #27.
this is from radin, for what it's worth: (he doesn't give his source)

"Several days before the murders Lizzie wrote to some friends that before coming up to visit them she would get a sharp ax to make certain she did not freeze. She was referring to an episode that had occurred the previous summer when they were together at the same cottage. On the first chilly evening they found that the logs on hand were too large for the fireplace and the ax so dull they could not chop the wood to fit. They had to search constantly for small branches and twigs in order to keep warm. A reporter who went to Marion to interview Lizzie's friends after the murders either misunderstood her reference in the letter or let his imagination run wild. He wrote that Lizzie had bought a sharp ax just prior to the murders. Before the police learned the real meaning of the letter, officers questioned every hardware merchant in Fall River and for miles around. They found no one to testify that Lizzie had purchased an ax."

I think there might have been some sort of cover up. IF Andrew was writing a new will, and Abby had known about it, they might not would have wanted lizzie or emma to know about it.

To add to my earlier post about Lizzie's letter to Emma having been mailed by Andrew on August 4:
Alice Russell testified at the trial that Lizzie, during her nocturnal visit of August 3, mentioned that she had already written to the "girls" at Marion that she was coming to join them the following week. Of course, Lizzie could have penned the letter just before visiting Alice and might still have given it to Andrew to mail the following morning. I think it's more likely that it had already been mailed, though. (Of course, we don't necessarily have to believe everything Lizzie said.)

Incidentally, I notice that Alice also quoted Lizzie as having said she (Lizzie) had been with her friends at Marion in the recent past. They had asked Lizzie why her mood seemed so glum. That's when Lizzie supposedly said there was a cloud hanging over her (or words to that effect). When did Lizzie go to Marion? At the inquest, she was asked when she had last been away from home for more than a night or two, and she responded that she didn't recall having made any such visits since her trip abroad in 1890, except that she had visited New Bedford "about three or four weeks ago" for three or four days. According to the Witness Statements, Lizzie's visit to New Bedford began on Thursday, July 21 (two weeks before the murders). Lizzie was never alone during her visit except for about an hour and a half on July 23, when she went shopping for dress goods. On Tuesday, the 26th, Lizzie and her hostess went to Westport to visit the hostess's daughter, an old schoolmate of Lizzie's. Lizzie left New Bedford for Fall River that same day.

Elizabeth "Lizzie" Johnson told the police that Lizzie Borden's letter was received at Marion on August 4, the day of the murders. Acting on advice from Andrew Jennings, Miss Johnson refused to divulge its contents to the police. (Marion is almost due east of Fall River and about twice as far away as New Bedford.)

Maybe Knowlton should have asked Lizzie about any out-of-town visits, not just those of more than one or two days.

Rebello, 62, 63:
"Sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift was at Marion, Monday, where the following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James F. Jackson, Misses Edith Jackson, Jennie Stowell, Anna C. Holmes, Mary L. Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice Buck, Isabelle Fraser, Louise H. Handy, Elizabeth Johnston, Annie C. Bush, and Lizzie A. Borden." Fall River Evening News, July 27, 1892: 8.

This was published on a Wednesday, so the previous Monday was July 25, to which they refer.

However, it’s probable, according to questions asked and some questions answered in testimony that Lizzie did go away on the Saturday after she returned from New Bedford.
Bridget
Prelim
53-54
Q. Lizzie returned on the following Tuesday you think?

A. I think so.

Q. There is Thursday and Friday and Saturday, three; and if she came back Tuesday, she was gone five or six days instead of three, was not she? That would be right, would not it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. So when you said that, you meant she was gone about three days, not exactly three days? Emma was away from that time up, until after this tragedy, this trouble?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did Lizzie go away any time after that, and before the tragedy?
A. I cannot tell.

Q. Did she not go away a Saturday?
A. I dont know.

Q. Did she go away the Saturday before the tragedy?
A. I cannot remember.

Q. Did she go away Sunday?
A. I do not know.

That Saturday before the murders would have been July 30th. It sounds like they know Lizzie was away that day.
Emma was not asked about the Saturday, at the inquest, and she didn’t appear at the preliminary hearing.
However, Emma was asked about Saturday (July 30th) at the trial:

1552
Q. Do you know of her going to Marion while you were away?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day was that?
A. It must have been a week from the following Saturday. We went to New Bedford Thursday.

Q. The Saturday before you came back home?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see her on the way to or from Marion?
A. No, sir.

Q. That is something she told you, I suppose?
A. That is all.

Q. And she told you that she simply spent the day there?
A. Yes, sir.

I suppose this might be the day that Lizzie was referring to at Marion when she spoke to Alice, Wednesday night.